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Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.08 19:55:00 - [1]
 

Being local is used as a intel tool and shouldn't but with no way to fix this why not use the Covert Ops cloak to fake the local intel tool?

Here is the idea:

Covert ops when used hides that person from the local chat channel. Being its the covert cloak no other ship other than those special ships can fit it so it won't be over powered. And those ships can do their job as a intel tool without others knowing what is going on.

So what do you all think of the idea?

De Jenmai
Posted - 2008.06.08 20:01:00 - [2]
 

i think its a gr8 ideer

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.08 20:58:00 - [3]
 

Been brought up dozens of times before, but it would basically kill 0.0 belt ratting.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.08 21:19:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Been brought up dozens of times before, but it would basically kill 0.0 belt ratting.


How would a covert ops ship kill 0.0 belt ratting?

And is that really all that bad?

Nikita Alterana
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2008.06.08 21:53:00 - [5]
 

oh knoes an Arazu! belt ratting is ruined!
honestly, if your ratting in 0.0 and you can't kill a ship fitted with a covert cloak then your doing something wrong.

Sathamarid
Posted - 2008.06.09 00:04:00 - [6]
 

Because they would know that you 1) are online 2) are ratting 3) what you are piloting 4) how you are fitted (sorta).

Without you knowing that they are there at all. Buddies pop in to local, they tackle you for a 3 or 4 seconds, warp off when buddies show up, you are dead.

Nikita Alterana
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2008.06.09 00:41:00 - [7]
 

OH GOD NO! SOMEONE ACTUALLY USING TACTICS ON MY EVE?!

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.06.09 08:08:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Sathamarid
Because they would know that you 1) are online 2) are ratting 3) what you are piloting 4) how you are fitted (sorta).

Without you knowing that they are there at all. Buddies pop in to local, they tackle you for a 3 or 4 seconds, warp off when buddies show up, you are dead.


This. People in favour of this need to take a second look at how important ratting is for many players (including me) for the sheer sec status and isk gain. With covops invisible you have absolutely zero warning, and they can easily tackle you for the 10-15seconds it will take an inty or a gang to take over.

I'm all for removing local entirely, but that must include a major upgrade to the onboard scanner including a much longer range and a rough estimation of the distance to a scanned object (below 1000, below 1,000,000 and below 100,000,000 kms)

Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
Posted - 2008.06.09 14:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Nikita Alterana
oh knoes an Arazu! belt ratting is ruined!
honestly, if your ratting in 0.0 and you can't kill a ship fitted with a covert cloak then your doing something wrong.


I would highly doubt they would be alone...

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.09 15:19:00 - [10]
 

It's an interesting idea and certainly makes sense from a 'roleplay' standpoint.

The downside, as folks mention, is that it adds to the imbalance of power that cloaked ships currently enjoy, particularly CovOps ships.

I've got an ongoing hate on with a CovOps pilot who uncloaked, webbed me at long range (with me in a blaster boat) and podded me. It was entirely fair - and good tactics on her part but one day I will blow that Rapier to bits and pod her in exchange. All in good fun, naturally.

The difficulty lies in gameplay balance as once one of these ships is insystem it can effectively shut down the system. Ratters won't go out unless they can be sure of a decent gang, which real world concerns sometimes prevent. Miners are in an even worse situation. Even one ship means the potential of a cyno fleet coming in at any moment and while that's true already at least with non-cloakers you can scan them out etc.

With the system as described you'd see a CovOps ship show up, make an attack or two and cloak. Now no one ever knows when that system is free of that ship (or ships). The damping effect on gameplay would probably just be too much.

If something like this were to be possible the ships themselves would have to be lots weaker and more expensive as well as having to spend significant time uncloaked before creating a Cyno (to give folks a chance to react). They should probably also lose the ability to communicate while cloaked - communications being a dead giveaway when trying to be electronically stealthy save for the tightest of tight beams. Those things, or something similar, would be needed for game balance.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.09 17:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
lots weaker and more expensive as well as having to spend significant time uncloaked before creating a Cyno (to give folks a chance to react)


5 mins isn't time to react?

as for the weaker ships, how much weaker can a frig or cruiser get?

I just would like to see the system change as it stands now there is no point in being in a covert ops ship as all people in local know who you are.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.06.09 21:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bloody Rabbit

I just would like ...

unfortunately, you are asking for too much. eve gameplay relies much on information, and in your desired situation, you would have total information, while completely denying it to the enemy.

recons are far from being useless (except current remote sensor damp fits). huggin useless? falcon useless?

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.09 21:35:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Chi Quan
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit

I just would like ...


recons are far from being useless (except current remote sensor damp fits). huggin useless? falcon useless?


Didn't say they were useless,

but to have everyone know who and how many are in the system is not ok. This has to change some how so I thought that with Covert Ops mod this could change the total local chat intel by questioning its accuracy.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.06.09 22:44:00 - [14]
 

and what stops your recon gang from picking fights and getting away if the opposition is forming up?
even better how can the opposition possibly do something against you once they formed up? you could be cloaking on the same grid, while the opposition doesn't even have a clue if you are still ingame, let alone in reachable distance.

what current mechanic denies you cloaked intel gathering? even a standard cloak on a cheap t1 frig allows you to do this. the only intel the opposition has is that you are there, not what you are flying or your intention. being seen in local has more advantages than being completely hidden, i can tell you from experience.

removal from local is only usefull if you rely on cheap kills for your ego. if you want a cloaked recon gang to strike on strategic targets, bridge them in with a black ops (and out again as well, avoiding the gatecamp-of-retaliation)

VJ Maverick
Splinter Cell Alfa
Posted - 2008.06.11 04:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Chi Quan
you could be cloaking on the same grid, while the opposition doesn't even have a clue if you are still ingame, let alone in reachable distance.

what current mechanic denies you cloaked intel gathering? even a standard cloak on a cheap t1 frig allows you to do this. the only intel the opposition has is that you are there, not what you are flying or your intention.


And perhaps a covert-ops shouldn't be denied cloaked intel gathering. I mean, the're called "cover ops" for a reason.


Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:10:00 - [16]
 

The fair solution would be to disable local as an intel source.

gavhriel
Amarr
Jotunheimr Productions Ltd.
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:54:00 - [17]
 

A recon can kill almost any ratting bs by itself (using the npcs).

just wait with the best spawn (3 bs plus support) and add your 120-130 dps -> job done.

wake up and get your head out of your .... :)

And dont come crying that battleships can tank thousands of dps :) what's the point of ratting with a full tank setup ? You can already gain more money doing hig sec missions.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.12 05:25:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ilvan
The fair solution would be to disable local as an intel source.


I support this, but seeing as it next to impossible to get them to sign-off on it. I was looking for a second or fifth best solution.

I would love to see local gone as I do recon/fleet warfare with a 0.0 alliance and I truly dislike that the enemies know what I'm flying because of my name.

I also dislike that my group dismisses someone because they are a rival know alliance cloaker. To me it makes 0.0 too care-bearish and not dangerous.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.12 05:29:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: gavhriel
A recon can kill almost any ratting bs by itself (using the npcs).

just wait with the best spawn (3 bs plus support) and add your 120-130 dps -> job done.

wake up and get your head out of your .... :)

And dont come crying that battleships can tank thousands of dps :) what's the point of ratting with a full tank setup ? You can already gain more money doing hig sec missions.


OK so what if it was only a Covert ops ship that could drop out of local? would you back that?

We really need to do something about Local chat being used as intel tool, so please say something, anything.

We can't just shoot down ideas without coming up with solutions ugh

Zurin Arctus
Posted - 2008.06.12 05:58:00 - [20]
 

I'm sorry, but I really think it would kill 0.0 PvE. Covert ops ships will become THE tool to sneak, scan down in and point ratting/plexing ships so that a gang can come to curb-stomp them.

No, we need a solution that allows pilots that go to the trouble of being careful to be relatively safe.

To put it another way, how idiotically simple are you going to make things for marauding gangs?

Takeda Harunobu
Posted - 2008.06.12 08:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Bloody Rabbit
Being local is used as a intel tool and shouldn't but with no way to fix this why not use the Covert Ops cloak to fake the local intel tool?

Here is the idea:

Covert ops when used hides that person from the local chat channel. Being its the covert cloak no other ship other than those special ships can fit it so it won't be over powered. And those ships can do their job as a intel tool without others knowing what is going on.

So what do you all think of the idea?


People have been suggesting this or similar for year now.

GruvRyder
Amarr
Nchanga Consolidated Corporate Mining Ltd.
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:39:00 - [22]
 

If people in cov ops cloak can cloak in local chat. then, CCP should release new mods. POS module that allows to scan cloakers (both covops and basic cloaks), launchable probers to probe out cloakers.

*with the new black ops, cov ops ship cloaking in local chat can pawn alot of people. well thats with alot of patience*

BringMeLuck
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:53:00 - [23]
 

being "cloaked" from local chat, yes. Being able to attack ppl like that... no

I would rather see a super special covert ops ship with only one hi-slot (for the cloaking device), but no offensive or e-war modules.

so it would would purely be used to spy out stuff without being able to hold them down.

Bahhs Deep
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:37:00 - [24]
 

If this were to take place...Nano gangs would be replaced by Recon Gangs.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:45:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: BringMeLuck
being "cloaked" from local chat, yes. Being able to attack ppl like that... no

I would rather see a super special covert ops ship with only one hi-slot (for the cloaking device), but no offensive or e-war modules.

so it would would purely be used to spy out stuff without being able to hold them down.


I could get behind something like that. But we need something because as is just isn't good enough.

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.12 22:16:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Zurin Arctus
I'm sorry, but I really think it would kill 0.0 PvE. Covert ops ships will become THE tool to sneak, scan down in and point ratting/plexing ships so that a gang can come to curb-stomp them.



Some possible limitations/solutions to this:

1) Cloaked ships cannot scan - or can scan only with very reduced capabilities. REALLY good scanning requires an active emitter - which would blow anyone's 'cloak'. It's like a stealth aircraft turning on a radar set. It may as well shoot up rockets and yell 'Here I am.' Any scanning they could do would be with passive sensors only which should give much more limited information. This could actually be fun as you could have decoys, dummies, signature enhancers etc. to fool your enemies passive scan.

2) Communications - again these require emitters. If you can talk with your mates, you can be detected. Cloaked ships should lose all transmit capability (they should still be able to receive). Were local gone and someone transmitting in your system (chatting with their buds) this could also be an EW detectable act which certain new systems could perhaps find.

In other words, for cloaked vessels and CovOps vessels to really work 'well' (and in a balanced fashion) you'd need to lose a lot of the metagaming people do somehow as well as know a little bit about the basics (at least - the advanced stuff gets really strange) of stealth technology and the EM spectrum.

Or you could hand wave it all away of course but EVE seems like like a harder edge than that, preferring closer to hard science than Trek fantasy black boxes.

Lenus Daragio
coracao ardente
Posted - 2008.06.12 23:27:00 - [27]
 

Unfortunately, I don't really see the point in arguing about local.

The only downside it has to PvP is that belt ratters who are paying attention can get out of harms way.
Oh no, you might have to shoot something capable of fighting back!

There are far more upsides to local. It's also become part of the game, I'd assume just not to mess with it. Even tho the devs never intended to have Local become an intel channel, I don't think eve would be nearly as successful without it. You have the ability to taunt your enemies, scream bloody murder, call for help, scam people in Jita, and all sorts of other ridiculous things that you can't do in other games.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.13 02:50:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lenus Daragio
The only downside it has to PvP is that belt ratters who are paying attention can get out of harms way.
Oh no, you might have to shoot something capable of fighting back!


That's not true at all, I can't count the number of times that we docked up because local had too many reds in it.

To me its a cheat, I would rather go head to head in fleet battles not knowing that there are 30+ more that we don't know about waiting for us to field our capital fleet. As is we know that there are 120 in local and in the surrounding areas when we can field 100 in active fleet.

THAT TAKES THE FUN OUT OF THE GAME

Chiefs Fan
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.06.14 13:01:00 - [29]
 

why should you get a free jump on ratters and miners that are doing pve and are monitoring local like they should?

your "idea" is a brain-dead way for ANY small stealth/tackle gang to gank with impunity.

it will never happen.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.17 08:22:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Chiefs Fan
why should you get a free jump on ratters and miners that are doing pve and are monitoring local like they should?

your "idea" is a brain-dead way for ANY small stealth/tackle gang to gank with impunity.

it will never happen.


Because 0.0 is not carebear land and shouldn't have complete security.

0.0 is safer than high sec <-- THAT IS WRONG,

0.0 shouldn't be more secure than high sec but it is. CCP Dev need to do something because as is, this shouldn't be happening as stated from the developers themselves; eve is a cruel dark world.


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