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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.06.06 06:16:00 - [1]
 

Features
+ The ability for people to target systems like EWAR, reperation systems, sensor system, warp core
(+) Sub-system overheating?

Considerations
- It shouldn't be needed in most cases. Most of the time you won't even have to bother.
- No sub-system should give so heavy penalties to the pilot, that it would be considered "over-powered"(I.e. systems which would be a "must shoot"-systems)

Impact
- UI being more complicated
- Server performance
+ Interesting tactical tool for small-gang warfare to be more viable
+ Could make it less viable for battle- and capitalships to be "solo-pwn"-mobiles


Lucias Trask
Divine Power.
Posted - 2008.06.06 06:54:00 - [2]
 

Thats not true.

Speed tankers NEED MWD, without it, they die instantly.

BUT... I fully endorse this and wish you could do things liek that. That way people would actually have to limp home or become ineffective over roams instead of just "NEED ARMOR REP" and being fine.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.06.06 06:57:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
reperation systems


Historical wrongs can't simply be forgotten thanks to some trifling reparations offered by the state to pacify the proletariat. This is unconscionable.

Pezzle
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.06 07:15:00 - [4]
 

I would support this in theory for larger ships. However, the combination of terrible UI and (just for one example) cap ship balance, keep me from saying yes.

Sorry. No

Yuki Santara
Posted - 2008.06.06 13:00:00 - [5]
 

Complex and maybe not feasible just yet, but I'd like to see this happen in some way.

"Target their phasers!"

Nariana Verex
Amarr
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.06 14:42:00 - [6]
 

I like the idea, and support it being looked at. On the other hand, I do not think pilots should be able to target modules directly. Rather, indirectly.

Give the option to target 'Weapon Systems' which would be the highslot rack in general, 'External Systems' target the midslots in general, and finally 'Internal Systems' or 'Engineering' which would be the area of the ship where the lowslot module subsystems would be stored.

Would be kind of neat to blast away at an industrial's cargohold after locking it down completely, and watching as the cargo spills out... Or trying to disable someone's tank indirectly.

On the counter side, however, these systems should not be easy to destroy or damage. Much like starbase weapons, they merely go offline and your crew/automatic systems will be able to repair them when your ship is no longer in danger.

I dunno, I'm rambling at this point.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.

Posted - 2008.06.06 14:47:00 - [7]
 

Supported, but limited to capital and super capital class ships only.

This would work wonders with a boarding class ship. (if we ever get one)


Sworn Absent
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.06 16:37:00 - [8]
 

Jesus christ this would over complicate combat and take all the fun out of it. The UI already sucks in this game and I can't see this helping.

One of those "neat ideas" that would be terrible in reality.

Zorok
Cosmic Cimmerians
Usurper.
Posted - 2008.06.06 19:31:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sworn Absent
Jesus christ this would over complicate combat and take all the fun out of it. The UI already sucks in this game and I can't see this helping.

One of those "neat ideas" that would be terrible in reality.


Amen to that my brother!

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.06.06 19:39:00 - [10]
 

LaVista, does the ability to shoot out someone's MWD or Ewar or Weapons Systems (assuming that's what you're talking about) just turn any gun into a very powerful form of Ewar? Like why use a webber that only has a 10km range when you can target the MWD of the enemy ship with a much longer range weapon?

Maybe if the effects were less pronounced than dedicated Ewar modules, or the precision needed to target a subsystem was only available within a limited range?

Siebenthal
Posted - 2008.07.15 13:25:00 - [11]
 


Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2008.07.15 14:01:00 - [12]
 

With the introduction of HEAT and module HP, one can easily see the UI damage receivership implementation.
The targetting of subsystems with current weaponary doesn't appear to make much sense. Missiles, guns, they have sig radii that don't make sense compared to modules. Nor does Sub System Targetting make any sense at all to a ship with it's shields up (Shield Tanking).

It would make more sense for an entirely new weapon type that circumvents those issues.

Off the top of my head, most common SST weapon would be SST frigate mounted single module targetting. SST frigates have built in ship module scanner.

Originally I was thinking "AF role", but that would just cloud the core issue.

Balancing so that people fly SST rather than damage/ewar? Well, that's not really my problem is it? Supported.


Dev Rom
Caldari
Masterminds Industries

Posted - 2008.07.30 21:25:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Dev Rom on 30/07/2008 21:26:33
I agree. That could introduce in costly/material reapair system -> isk sink -> improve economy.
Pilots may try to disable ships warpcore, or weapons. Even in missions, where someone ask for "bosses have to flight the battle", pilots may disable bosses ships as a mission itself (say, no need to kill everything).

It's annoying to see that a ship with only 1 (one) structure hitpoint is 100% combat efficent like a full shield/armor/structure ship.....

I think this would be a hard revamp of the combat system. Rolling Eyes

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.30 22:39:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 30/07/2008 22:40:34
Originally by: Kelsin
LaVista, does the ability to shoot out someone's MWD or Ewar or Weapons Systems (assuming that's what you're talking about) just turn any gun into a very powerful form of Ewar? Like why use a webber that only has a 10km range when you can target the MWD of the enemy ship with a much longer range weapon?

Maybe if the effects were less pronounced than dedicated Ewar modules, or the precision needed to target a subsystem was only available within a limited range?


This is a good point... and a good balance.


Targeting sub-systems would require that they be pronounced enough to lock onto in the first place. So I could see the option only appearing for certain classes of ships to begin with. A Frigate is so small (by comparison) that you could try to aim for the engines and wind up hitting the shield generators instead. Plus they are easy enough to kill that "Called shots" wouldn't be worth it.

While a Titan, or even a BS, are surely big enough to land shots on specific systems without too much collateral damage.

Perhaps one solution to this dilemma would be adding a stronger sensor Module. Kinda like the Ship or Cargo Scanners. Sure, it takes up an extra slot... but so what. You get to disable ships rather than just destroy them, you can deal with one less slot.

So you lock onto a BS, and fire away. OR... you lock onto the BS, and then start scanning. Now an extra window opens up, displaying the sensitive systems onboard. You click on one, and start to lock on. You'd be using the same weaponry, which means your Scan Resolution will factor in... and the effective Signature Radius of such a tiny part of the ship could be impossible for one BS to fire upon another BS. BUT... those little Frigates flitting about could definately get a lock onto the soft underbelly of the opponent's Titan or Mom.


So here we go... "Called shots" for ships sub-systems. You can attempt it in your Mega if you like, or you can hand the job off to that little Enyo someone decided to bring along just in case.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:35:00 - [15]
 

I really like the idea of subsystem targeting, and I have a way that it might be possible in a preliminary stage without too many balancing headaches:

The chance of hitting a ship's module is relative to the weapon's signature resolution vs. the ship's signature radius


  • If the target's shields are up, you can hit high-slot modules

  • If their armor remains, you can hit high-slot and mid-slot modules

  • If their armor is gone, you can hit all modules



This also has the side effect of giving a boost to ships that regularly engage larger targets:
-Hacs vs. Battleships
-Frigates vs. Anything
-Battleships vs. Capitals
-Capitals vs. Motherships and Titans

I think that might work as a first step. Twisted Evil

Melanie Griffin
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.07.30 23:59:00 - [16]
 

How could that possibly be implemented? Another right click menu? Of course it would be nice to do that, but i assume it's ages to early to speak about, and there are a lot of other things to do first.

Taramics idea looks much more convertible. Just like critical hits in other fantasy games.

Junkie Beverage
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:04:00 - [17]
 

nah

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.31 00:05:00 - [18]
 

Tarminic's idea looks exactly like mine... only he added limitations to what systems and modules you can target based on what defenses are still in place.

As for "how" to make it work...

Try using a Survey Scanner sometime. It opens a new Menu window, just like your Overview... with little dropdowns for the various Ore types. Then you leaf through the options, based on range most often, and start mining.

This Systems Scanner could do the same thing. You lock onto a ship, and activate the Scanner. It opens an extra menu, which wouldn't be too big and obscuring since all it'd show is Weapons, Shields, Armor, Engines, Warp, Cap, etc. Basically all the vital parts of the ship. I don't see this system allowing you to very precisely target their "Large Armor Repairer II"... but it could cause damage to "Armor Repairs" which would carry over. And if you happen to be Caldari, then targeting their "Armor Repairs" wouldn't do much good, now would it?

Little menu box, with a couple of options. Score enough hits, and they can't fire back... or they can't mend damage... or they can't run away...

NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2008.07.31 03:03:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: NanDe YaNen on 31/07/2008 03:15:00
Now it's good =D
  • Targeting of subsystems could be implemented in the targeting menu as a drop-down option that falls off the side of the right-click menu. Also as a drop-down from the target button in the selected item window.
  • Sub-systems should have a specified (very low) percentage of the signature radius of the targeted ship. This makes it automatically very hard to hit with anything more than very below-tier weaponry.
  • Sub-systems should be reparable by remote-reppers, allowing triage to put a wounded cap back into action etc. Sig radius just makes them harder to lock here, giving logistics and triage more lease in life.
  • Sub-systems should have a small slice (not adding up to 100%) of shield/armor/structure of the targeted ship, simulating the overwhelming of all local defenses in a very specific location all the way through the structure.
  • Sub-system damage should be counted against the total HP of the ship using the regular damage calculations on a simulated slice of the ship's HP. IE if it takes 16000 shield, 12000 armor, and 14000 structure to blow up the sub-system, that amount of damage should be applied to the ship's shield, armor, and structure.
  • AoE weapons do NOT affect sub-systems at all. 6000m radius is not pin-point enough =P
  • Subsystems should automatically repair their structure over time, but require remote or local repping to recover their armor/shield.
  • Sub-systems should receive repair from ship's own tanking mods, but with a weighted percent of total damage repair applied to the sub-system


I don't know how all this became so clear to me so fast, but I can already hear the 11,000 carrier pilots cringing and the bomber pilots going nuts Very Happy

Synopsis of the implementation:

Small ship weapons will hit your sub-sytems on capital (BS as well?) ships. If they can blow up the protection and do structure damage to the system before you can get a rep-cycle in, you will start eating sub-system structural damage. These systems will regen over time, becoming active again upon reaching full structure. They will become deactivated again once damaged to 0 structure again. A carrier or any logistics can give your sub-systems extra protection. Get rid of small ships to prevent losing access to systems.

Available systems should be:
  • Propulsion (jump drive, speed and agility cut way back)
  • High slots
  • Engineering (large capacitor drop/no recharge)
  • Sensors (easier to jam, slower locks, lose range)


Yes, jump drive. You have smartbombs, fighters, drones, DDD's, and should have support. A wing of bombers working effectively can pin a cap/super-cap. Big trade-off of pilots required, pilots who could be flying tackling ships, which are more general purpose and probably regarded as superior in PvP anyway. Fair trade in tactics. You can still warp, but align very slowly.

I think hitting tanking mods makes absolutely no sense because it'd be more like hitting the module that is the locus of all defenses of the ship. There would be so much shield/armor rep coming from that location that the small weapons that could hit it would be working against the total HP of the ship, not just a slice.

Basically your worst nightmare as a cap pilot becomes getting alpha-strikes from bombers that hit in between rep-cycles. Anything else probably won't have the alpha/tracking/explosion radius to hit the weak point hard enough fast enough. I stress that the sig radius should be very small and the HP should be to where a bomber wing can pin a cap fleet. Bombers are a specialized ship with not so much usage, so don't complain that it's too much for a small ship, because it's a specialized ship that will still require good coordination.

POS warfare trick of the month is to blow up the engineering on a dread and take it down before it's out of siege.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.07.31 10:14:00 - [20]
 

I would support this for targeting capital ship systems thus making smaller vessels a danger to them (like that A wing that takes out the Executor bridge in Return of the Jedi)

On smaller vessels I don't think it would be as good.

Einstein's Ghost
Posted - 2008.07.31 11:09:00 - [21]
 

Anyone here played Tie Fighter? Very Happy Loved that game.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.31 12:43:00 - [22]
 

I still think the Tactical Sensor module would be easier to implement.

1) To prevent sub-system damage from a 150km sniper, the Sensor has a much closer range. You have to be pretty up close and personal in order to hit specific locations rather than just the ship in general.

2) The Sensor could open a separate menu to display the weak points, and the damage meters for each. Personally, I get irritated with all the right+click flyout menus. If you wiggle your mouse just slightly, then they disappear or choose something completely different. Whereas a separate menu would be easier to navigate in the heat of combat.

3) I don't think that sub-systems should each have shields/armor/hull. That's what the ship has in place. So either taking the suggestion earlier, and saying you can't lock certain systems until the ship's defenses are already down... or just making sub-system damage resemble Heat. Each area will have a certain amount of damage it can take before it goes down.

4) I don't think they should repair on their own, nor should Remote Reppers work. But I do think we already have the tool for making repairs on our own... Nanite Paste.

Farinet
Posted - 2008.07.31 13:53:00 - [23]
 


soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force

Posted - 2008.07.31 16:07:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 31/07/2008 18:40:26
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 31/07/2008 18:36:31
ah, i was thinking about it recently as well, when i found the "drawing board" section of patch notes

i was thinking on how to implement this, and i think i came up with a good idea, first you would need skills to use it something like:

Targeting Level IV
Surgical Strike Level IV
Sub-System Targeting Level I

now, what you could do, would be like this, instead of aiming specifically for specific modules, IE a Vagabonds MWD for example, you could aim for High Slots; Mid Slots; and Low Slots, and it would be like overloading modules (i cant overload modules yet, so correct me if im wrong) but you konw when you overload modules, they get damaged, and un useable for a certain amount of time? well, what if you could do something similar in this case?


like this screen shot


see that half circle under structure? and the 2 lines that seperate it into 3 sections?

you could be able to target High Slots; Mid Slots; and Low Slots, and if the first bar was gone, that rack could be deactivated for i would say 3 minutes (no module damage), you shoot him some more, and if the second section was shot down to 0, now the modules are damaged, and then deactivated for 5 more minutes (the times could stack on top of each other, ie, you shoot him straight to 2/3 down, so his modules would be deactivated for 8 minutes) when and if you shoot it down all the way, the modules are extremely damaged, like 39/40 down, and the modules are deactivated for 10 minutes, regardless if you repair them, or dock at a station

but these modules wouldnt be exactly easy to hit either, it would have to be along the lines of trying to hit a small drone going like 500meters per second or something, and you cant even web them (the modules) so even if you webbed the ship down to 5 m/sec the modules would still have to be hard to hit, of course it would also have to be easier for smaller ships to hit them since they are smaller and use smaller guns themselves


this would help alot imho, so now pirates could shoot (or try) to shoot modules instead of damaging a ship


for other things (normal ship propulsion) idk, i dont think it should be a death sentence because if you think about it, soemone shoots your propulsion out, you are a sitting duck, and dont know what if the pirates are going to just keep you all there, and maybe pop you one by one (lmao that would funny though, line them up, you konw you are next, the other ship is itno armor, structure, boom, then you hear the locking sound on your ship, lmao) anyway, if it was to implemented, i think i have a good idea on how that would work as well, maybe you could shoot propulsion out, and it just damages it quite a bit, like they shoot out your sub-light, it would also have its own little bar of health, but instead of it being deactivated, its performance should be cut down, IE, first section is shot out, ship can only go 66% its normal speed, second section shot out, ship can only go 33% its normal speed, 3/3 shot out, ship can now only go 1% its normal speed, and this would work out still on modules that are based off that ships attribute, you have a MWD that allows your ship to go 15km/sec for example, they shoot out your PROPULSION, and your ship can only go 1% of 15km/sec, now your ship can still go 450m/sec even with its propulsion shot out due to its MWD


same thing should go for warp engines, your warp SPEED could be messed up, yoru ship warps at 3AU/ second, now it can only warp like 0.5AU a second for example, or maybe it could suck way more capacitor to warp out, or maybe a combination of both

bottom line though, NO amount of module popping should prevent you from escaping completely, no matter if your propulsion, MWD, and warp engines are shot out, you could still warp away, its just more difficult

same thing with weapons and protection, you should still be able to use them, it should

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.31 16:12:00 - [25]
 

sorry about double post, but maybe also, if you dont target the equipment on the ship, just targeting the ship itself, there could be a random chance (something like a "strikes perfectly wrecking for. . . ) shot that it does damage a module along with it, and if it does, it shoots it straight down to its first level of damage, and that module is un useable, however, if you are aiming for a certain rack (high slot, mid slot, or low slots) when you miss it doesnt damage the ship either

just an afterthought Smile

Heartstone
Aliastra

Posted - 2008.07.31 16:24:00 - [26]
 

I agree with the idea presented by soldier of fortune here but would make it substantially harder to train for than he presented. Something along the lines of:
Targeting V
Surgical Strike IV or V
Trajectory Analysis IV or V


soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.07.31 16:28:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Heartstone
I agree with the idea presented by soldier of fortune here but would make it substantially harder to train for than he presented. Something along the lines of:
Targeting V
Surgical Strike IV or V
Trajectory Analysis IV or V






ah, thank you, i knew there were other targeting skills, just wasnt sure which ones


and thank you for agreeing with me, but, im not sure about lvl 5 skills, those take a while to train for, i would say those skills at lvl 4 would be sufficient

again, thanks for agreeing with me

if this was implemented, it would add another complete tactical tool to the game, and would give smaller ships a better role in this world, when each side starts taking up mass battleship fleets (like the caldari a few days ago, they built a fleet up of about 20 battleships)

Berendas
Posted - 2008.07.31 16:30:00 - [28]
 

Sorry, but I can't say I like this idea Confused

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.07.31 18:54:00 - [29]
 

I could see ~some~ extra training to accomplish this. But I don't think it requires Absolute Mastery of targeting skills to achieve. Unless all Level V's means you can shoot the Capacitor battery cables off a Shuttle in mid-warp from 200km away.

I think part of the idea is to achieve some of the cinematic action we see in Sci Fi shows. Targeting certain systems to incapacitate the ship without destroying it completely.

I just don't think the tactical officers on Star Trek or BSG have all trained so thoroughly into Targeting, just to make a few extra shots. I think they have extra sensitive sensor arrays that allow for it... kinda like the Tactical Sensor I suggested already! Very Happy

Hottie McGee
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.07.31 19:29:00 - [30]
 

as much as it seems like a good idea (i loved homeworld 2, and using bombers to that effect was fun), there are a couple flaws. the main one- lag generated by only a couple hundred ships shooting one pos lags a system as is with nothing else to speak of going on in system is a problem as it is, having the servers have to calculate even more divvied damage would kill performance and nodes.

it would be awesome if it could work in this game, but i fear that current mechanics and software wouldn't be able to support it.


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