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Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.04 22:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Arkanjuca on 21/06/2008 11:12:33
Edited by: Arkanjuca on 04/06/2008 23:20:31
Looking at this forum, i counted about 1 topic per day about this subject, but none of them reflects what i think about it.

tl;dr version:
Make the AF what HAC is to cruisers.

An example of the idea:

Punisher : 1425 Tons / 4-2-4 / 2 bonuses
Retribution: 1950 Tons / 5-1-5 / 3 bonuses

Omen : 11950 Tons / 5-3-5 / 2 bonuses
Zealot : 11950 Tons / 5-3-7 / 4 bonuses

HAC gets same mass, +2 slots and +2 bonuses
AF gets more mass, +1 slot and +1 bonus

The new AF would be:

Retribution: 1425 T / 5-2-5 / 4 bonuses

This way, i think it would bring them a good boost to their effectiveness without any super alien bonus.

I have seen a lot of ideas, like:

Web resistance, AB boost and etc...
- These modules needs a review of their own, its not a problem only to AF.
Mini command ship.
- Its not a command ship, its assault, and the time these bonuses are good are in a good sized gang, where a command ship will be much better

And others, all of them involving a "role" bonus.

Now playing with the numbers, lets see what the AFs could be with this guideline in mind:

Resistances and HP should be the same.

Retribution:
1425 Tons
High: 5 (4t)
Meds: 2
Lows: 5

Frigate bonus: 10% cap use, 5% damage
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 5% rof
* Maybe switch the rof to tracking

Vengeance:
1500 Tons
High: 4 (4l)
Meds: 3
Lows: 5

Frigate bonus: 5% rocket dmg, 5% armor resistance
Assault bonus: 5% cap recharge, 5% rocket velocity
* Maybe switch a low to a high slot

Harpy:
1450 Tons
High: 5 (4t,1l)
Meds: 4
Lows: 3

Frigate bonus: 10% optimal, 5% damage
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 5% rof
* Maybe switch a low to a med slot

Hawk:
1500 Tons
High: 5 (4l,2t)
Meds: 5
Lows: 2

Frigate bonus: 5% kinetic missile dmg, 10% missile velocity
Assault bonus: 7.5% shield boost, 5% rof
* Maybe switch the rof for a missile flight time

Enyo:
1250 Tons
High: 5 (4t,1l)
Meds: 3
Lows: 4

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 5% rof
* Maybe switch the 5% rof for a mwd penalty reduction

Ishkur:
1450 Tons
High: 4 (3t)
Meds: 3
Lows: 4

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, +5 drone bay
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 7.5% armor repair
* Maybe switch the 7.5% armor repair for a 10% drone effectiveness (dmg,hp,mining :p)

Jaguar:
1100 Tons
High: 4 (3t,1l)
Meds: 4
Lows: 4

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking
Assault bonus: 10% falloff, 5% dmg
* Just like that...

Wolf:
1150 Tons
High: 5 (4t,1l)
Meds: 2
Lows: 5

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 5% dmg
* Not sure about lows and meds, brutor ships tends to have way more low slots.

--

Would these ships outclass any other? I dont think so... but this boost would make them worth the isk to fly and have fun.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.04 22:58:00 - [2]
 

* reserved

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.06.04 23:57:00 - [3]
 

Yes.

Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
Posted - 2008.06.05 00:14:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
Jaguar:
1100 Tons
High: 4 (3t,1l)
Meds: 4
Lows: 4

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 5% speed
Assault bonus: 10% falloff, 5% dmg
* Yes, a mini vaga, the ship screams for falloff and speed bonus

i support i your idea if you make the other AFs as good as this one.


Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2008.06.05 03:25:00 - [5]
 

agreed in that the AF's SHOULD be Frigs with higher dps and higher tank... simply better frigs... just as HAC's are better cruisers...

By description alon, AF's should be the best tank and best dps of all frig sized ships...

Thunderbird Anthares
ISK Reliability Inc.
Inver Brass
Posted - 2008.06.05 09:08:00 - [6]
 

AF`s need a boost really bad
and theyre my favourite ships so i stand by them

/signed tho something may be subject to tweaking

HACs are cruisers on steroids,so logically AFs should be frigates on steroids

Jokus Balim
Minmatar
Capital Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2008.06.05 15:38:00 - [7]
 

Please do not post /signed as stated in this thread it is considered spam.Applebabe

Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.06 06:01:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Papa Gwan on 06/06/2008 06:10:12
Papa Gwan likes this idea!

edit - only problem I see is taking away resistance bonuses...or are they folded into the base ship?

Helevorn Feanaro
Gene Works
AKA-AHN KINGDOM
Posted - 2008.06.06 09:01:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Helevorn Feanaro on 06/06/2008 09:01:36
Edited by: Helevorn Feanaro on 06/06/2008 09:01:04
Signed.

Bet set of ideas yet. It's role is to assault. Real simple.

I would also like to add that about 80% of its build cost comes from 2 components only. If the build requirements could be tweaked a bit, costs would go down. That should fix the bang vs. buck ratio too.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.06.06 12:12:00 - [10]
 

That's what I've been suggesting for a long time now.
Definitely since the first 'Boost AFs!' thread.

It's true to the KISS principle. Simple, obvious, direct.

Raven Timoshenko
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.06.06 12:25:00 - [11]
 

Please do not post /signed as stated in this thread it is considered spam.Applebabe

Shiken Kan
Posted - 2008.06.06 14:09:00 - [12]
 

simple and effective.
/signed

Originally by: Papa Gwan

only problem I see is taking away resistance bonuses...or are they folded into the base ship?


all other t2 ships have their resistance bonuses applied as 'hidden' bonus, only exception are afs.

PeacefullNub
Posted - 2008.06.07 08:02:00 - [13]
 

Even if im not totally agreed with all new AFs (some of them will be too good)...why not?
/signed
today AFs are crap, they need something. AB role bonuses, web rezists, DC bonuses, addition slots - no matter..

sgt carlini
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.06.07 08:10:00 - [14]
 

/Signed

Afs really need a boost. I love them anyway but they still need a boost.

Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.09 04:16:00 - [15]
 

Bump for justice!

Busher
Posted - 2008.06.09 07:52:00 - [16]
 

Please do not post /signed as stated in this thread it is considered spam.Applebabe

Zulu Six
Posted - 2008.06.09 11:05:00 - [17]
 

I can't believe I didn't post in this thread yet. +1 /signed yes concur /subscribe etc.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.06.09 12:36:00 - [18]
 

Having the 'same mass' with gallente AF is not what you describe there, check back the incursus.

I think having the same mass is not the best guideline. Just as how the base speeds are very low on some frigates and high on others. If they are to compete with each other as HAS do, they need a proper balance on this. The close ranged HAS tend to be nanoable and the longer range ones, less.
The question we need to ask is : Do we want another line of interceptors? Will they be useful if they are all nanoed, won't they replace the interceptors?

Also, the +X slots from T1 version should not be a rule, the frigates are very different from each other, you can see this comparing a tristan vs an incursus, there is a two slots difference, and both are tier 3 frigates used for T2 ships.

Some kind of straight boost is good, but the ships at the end must be balanced inside their class.
While interceptors are the scrambling frigate class, having the AFs be the webifying type with firepower (because being in web range is mostly a weakness) sounds a way to think them. The main issue is where long range AF place into this design?

The 'alien role bonuses' can be avoided, but they still need to be useful in a gang, so people use them!

Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.09 13:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Deadeye Devie on 09/06/2008 13:36:12
/signed

TBH any boost at the moment will make this class a little more balanced with frigs crusers n such....they need something to make em more gank/tank...there not tacklerts, thats inties job...they just cant do thier job at the mo as they are.

i myself would LOVE to have a dev say yes or no to any boost...as we have been waiting for aaaaages for even a response...please Devs, say SOMETHING!!!?!?!!!

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.09 13:49:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Having the 'same mass' with gallente AF is not what you describe there, check back the incursus.

Sure, i used the tristan mass as base so that it stay in line with the other AFs, also, you can notice that they do not have the same mass, ishkur is a little heavier than enyo.
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
I think having the same mass is not the best guideline. Just as how the base speeds are very low on some frigates and high on others. If they are to compete with each other as HAS do, they need a proper balance on this. The close ranged HAS tend to be nanoable and the longer range ones, less.

I agree, thats why some AFs in my proposal is heavier than others, but it will still handle like frigates.
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
The question we need to ask is : Do we want another line of interceptors? Will they be useful if they are all nanoed, won't they replace the interceptors?

Absolutely not, AS will have less base speed and more mass, that means that even if you want, they will not be able to compete with interceptors.
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Also, the +X slots from T1 version should not be a rule, the frigates are very different from each other, you can see this comparing a tristan vs an incursus, there is a two slots difference, and both are tier 3 frigates used for T2 ships.

The ship used as base for gallente is the tristan, the model is an incursus i know, but the base stats are from the tristan.
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Some kind of straight boost is good, but the ships at the end must be balanced inside their class.
While interceptors are the scrambling frigate class, having the AFs be the webifying type with firepower (because being in web range is mostly a weakness) sounds a way to think them. The main issue is where long range AF place into this design?

The 'alien role bonuses' can be avoided, but they still need to be useful in a gang, so people use them!

What about AF be the frigate that can punch you in the face and be hard to kill? I like this role... Webifying frigate is currently the Hyena role. These new AF could melt them down, acting as a useful anti support.
The problem is to give a role to a whole class of ships, you dont need it, let the game be the sandbox it is...


Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.09 13:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Deadeye Devie
Edited by: Deadeye Devie on 09/06/2008 13:36:12
/signed

TBH any boost at the moment will make this class a little more balanced with frigs crusers n such....they need something to make em more gank/tank...there not tacklerts, thats inties job...they just cant do thier job at the mo as they are.

i myself would LOVE to have a dev say yes or no to any boost...as we have been waiting for aaaaages for even a response...please Devs, say SOMETHING!!!?!?!!!

They did, remember the boost patch? They tould AF would be one of the ship types that really need a boost, but, we got nothing...

Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.09 16:55:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Arkanjuca

They did, remember the boost patch? They tould AF would be one of the ship types that really need a boost, but, we got nothing...



Yeah, i was under the impression it would be in the next boost/expansion, yet it seems there hasnt been anything changed, nor has there been a statement to ascertain if this idea has been shelved, or still planned. AFs are by far my fave group of ships, althoug serve no real place in pvp compaired to the cheaper and as functional role of 'go get a cruiser' and i find people are a little more weary of taking an AF in a squad, and if they do you tend to be picked off fast due to the awefull properties of them. Heres to still hoping we will see a day when AF pilots in general are not laughed at!!!!

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2008.06.09 17:36:00 - [23]
 

hi my name is Arvald, and i approve of this post

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.06.12 14:43:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 14:43:30
Originally by: Arkanjuca

Wolf:
1150 Tons
High: 5 (4t,1l)
Meds: 2
Lows: 5

Frigate bonus: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking
Assault bonus: 10% optimal, 5% dmg
* Not sure about lows and meds, brutor ships tends to have way more low slots.



The Wolf either needs its falloff bonus or three midslots to be viable in the AC-ganker role where it's really fun to fly Very Happy

Otherwise, one big /SIGNED.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:59:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 16:01:36
Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 15:59:57
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
AF`s need a boost really bad
and theyre my favourite ships so i stand by them

/signed tho something may be subject to tweaking

HACs are cruisers on steroids,so logically AFs should be frigates on steroids
And what are they now ? Show me t1 frig that can beat AF. Sure that afs can't beat any half-decent cruiser pilot, but neither can hacs with any halfdecent bc pilot.
If you will improove theyr agility and mass then u will make ceptors even more obsolete for anything else than tackling.
And since nosnerf theyr pretty good ships and with some luck they can even beat some cruisers.

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.14 05:34:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 16:01:36
Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 15:59:57
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
AF`s need a boost really bad
and theyre my favourite ships so i stand by them

/signed tho something may be subject to tweaking

HACs are cruisers on steroids,so logically AFs should be frigates on steroids
And what are they now ? Show me t1 frig that can beat AF. Sure that afs can't beat any half-decent cruiser pilot, but neither can hacs with any halfdecent bc pilot.
If you will improove theyr agility and mass then u will make ceptors even more obsolete for anything else than tackling.
And since nosnerf theyr pretty good ships and with some luck they can even beat some cruisers.

Inties are the best at chasing down targets, and these new frigates will still have low warp speed and not even close to inties speed.
It will still suffer from the nano or tank problem.

SeptimusCurtius Tacitus
Posted - 2008.06.14 11:53:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: SeptimusCurtius Tacitus on 14/06/2008 12:01:41
I really like this idea, especially compared to the 'make them faster' that seams to be in some threads

Though I like to add my thoughts to the bonus -

inties = speed/tackle
stealth bombers = gank (one alpha wonder)
coverts = scouting
e-war (self explainatory)
assaults = tank?

I was wonder about giving one of the bonuses to a reduction in the cap usage of active tanks (armour repper/remote armour repper for gallente/amarr say -5% per level for second bonus under assault, same but for shield with caldari/mini)

This would give them a place in a large fleet as a decentralised logisics (aka e-war type) but give them a chance to survive in small scale combat (still tanks well if you don't want to use a high slot for a remote repper because the bonus would work for your own tank as well).



Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2008.06.14 12:01:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Arkanjuca
Originally by: Valandril
Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 16:01:36
Edited by: Valandril on 12/06/2008 15:59:57
Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares
AF`s need a boost really bad
and theyre my favourite ships so i stand by them

/signed tho something may be subject to tweaking

HACs are cruisers on steroids,so logically AFs should be frigates on steroids
And what are they now ? Show me t1 frig that can beat AF. Sure that afs can't beat any half-decent cruiser pilot, but neither can hacs with any halfdecent bc pilot.
If you will improove theyr agility and mass then u will make ceptors even more obsolete for anything else than tackling.
And since nosnerf theyr pretty good ships and with some luck they can even beat some cruisers.

Inties are the best at chasing down targets, and these new frigates will still have low warp speed and not even close to inties speed.
It will still suffer from the nano or tank problem.

Responding to only small part of post while skipping major arguments ftw!

Arkanjuca
D00M.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.14 17:47:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Valandril
Responding to only small part of post while skipping major arguments ftw!


Ok, these new AFs will still have a hard time against a half-decent cruiser pilot, i have no doubt about that. And a fight between HACs and BCs are very doable granted the wide fitting options and skills involved.
Dont try to put things into a radical scissor rock paper game, it just dont work in a game made to be a sandbox.

Papa Gwan
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.06.16 00:11:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
Ok, these new AFs will still have a hard time against a half-decent cruiser pilot, i have no doubt about that. And a fight between HACs and BCs are very doable granted the wide fitting options and skills involved.
Dont try to put things into a radical scissor rock paper game, it just dont work in a game made to be a sandbox.


Personally, I think AF's should smoke Cruisers. Then again, I am very partial to them =P

Currently, AF's are pretty much gang-only for me. Solo I think an Interceptor works much better. AF's generally don't have the speed to speed tank, and if they do, they sacrificed most of their lows so no damage mods and will drain cap pretty damn fast with all equipment running.

In fleets, however, I think AF's are very powerful, even now. True, they are fairly weak, but if you do not tank at all, as in no shields, armor, or speed tanking, and simply outfit them for damage and utility(tackling), they can be excellent! I mean, I've seen Wolf fittings that put out 250 DPS with max skills. That's a quarter a Battleship =P Of course, this only works in fleets when you are rarely, if ever, targeted.

Anyhow, I still support this idea. This is the best one I've read, and the fact of the matter is that AF's still need a nice buff.


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