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Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.06.03 18:51:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Mangtoos
Originally by: Agent Li

It sure helps to get isk back from insurance. If you believe that cost isn't an issue, then you won't mind at all if they change only "if you get CONCORDED you get no insurance payout".

That won't stop ganks on ships that are worth ganking - because it's a fat freighter or a faction CNR it's worth the gank.

But it would stop the "I'll gank an empty retriever just for the fun of it" - well, that will cost you a small amount right there...


Like it would be worth the security hit to gank a single insurable retriever. Look how stupid you are.


People are doing it every day in empire space. Maybe not you, but a lot of people.

Really stupid ganks...

Mangtoos
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.03 18:57:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Mangtoos on 03/06/2008 18:58:12
Originally by: Agent Li
Originally by: Mangtoos
Originally by: Agent Li

It sure helps to get isk back from insurance. If you believe that cost isn't an issue, then you won't mind at all if they change only "if you get CONCORDED you get no insurance payout".

That won't stop ganks on ships that are worth ganking - because it's a fat freighter or a faction CNR it's worth the gank.

But it would stop the "I'll gank an empty retriever just for the fun of it" - well, that will cost you a small amount right there...


Like it would be worth the security hit to gank a single insurable retriever. Look how stupid you are.


People are doing it every day in empire space. Maybe not you, but a lot of people.

Really stupid ganks...


If that's the case, then stupid people will always remain stupid. Changing game mechanics will not infuse them with intellegence.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.06.03 19:12:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Shintai on 03/06/2008 19:12:52
Funny the goons suddenly rush to the "defend". Feeling the risk of loosing your riskfree iskies?

The goons should hold their own paralympics in how to play EvE. The real one is obviously too hard if its not on ultra easy mode. Talk about having the accessibility options on.

The waaaaahhhbulance is clearly needed. Anyone with just the slighest sense can see the current mechanics needs a tiny adjustment. Thats simply progress and evolution so to say. People biatch and whine about how empire people have it so easy doign L4 and earn soo much money. Double standards anyone? Or tripple in this case.

Mangtoos
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.03 19:35:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Shintai
Edited by: Shintai on 03/06/2008 19:12:52
Funny the goons suddenly rush to the "defend". Feeling the risk of loosing your riskfree iskies?

The goons should hold their own paralympics in how to play EvE. The real one is obviously too hard if its not on ultra easy mode. Talk about having the accessibility options on.

The waaaaahhhbulance is clearly needed. Anyone with just the slighest sense can see the current mechanics needs a tiny adjustment. Thats simply progress and evolution so to say. People biatch and whine about how empire people have it so easy doign L4 and earn soo much money. Double standards anyone? Or tripple in this case.


Why would I care how people in empire make isk? Please re-read what I wrote, learn to write a coherent sentence, and then try again.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.06.03 19:56:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Mangtoos
Why would I care how people in empire make isk? Please re-read what I wrote, learn to write a coherent sentence, and then try again.


I did, result:
You try and fake around to protect your suicide ganking thats riskfree and cost you close to nothing.
Hours and hours to recover the sec standing? Does goon space suck that much? Others can do it in a few BS spawns. The sec loss is also very minimal if you dont pod.

So unless you want to state something fictional. Come up with something better instead of this protectionism garbage.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:01:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Shintai
Edited by: Shintai on 03/06/2008 10:07:10
Making a drama out of an incomplete context?

Quote:
without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."


Read everything next time.

Oh, and complaining? Let me guess. You want easy risk free and cost free iskies? because real pvP is too hard for you? Oh cry more to your mommy!


Oh, not to worry, I read everything. And I'm not taking anything out of context. If the devs did something like say, removed ALL insurance from the game, then it would be far more difficult to suicide people in high sec, while keeping the rules of the game even and fair for everyone: carebears don't get to insure their ships, and neither do 'PVPers'.

I'm all for it. I am *not* however for penalizing people intent on killing stupid people in empire, just because they're smart enough to kill some idiot who isn't prepared and didn't tank his ship, use a scout, have a gang of remote rep BS or whatever their particular failing was that got them killed.

There is a huge difference between changing game mechanics so that the change affects everyone equally, and singling out and punishing particular groups of players for their play style. How would the carebears like it if every time you went into a deadspace mission, your insurance was voided until you're out of the mission, because Concord won't insure any spacecraft that isn't operated in normal approved space? Didn't think so.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:07:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:12:59
Bellum Eternus,

There's a difference between a playstyle and plain out griefing. That you choose to ignore the difference is all on you. Don't come here and defend griefing as a legitimate play style just as any other play style. Because it just isn't.

And forget the high sec 'stupid' people, as you call them. What I want is consequences for your actions for breaking the laws in high sec. Slaps in the hands for silly "lulz" obviously isn't cutting it anymore. I seriously doubt it was the devs' intentions to have players be able to mass suicide for 'lulz', grind sec status for a few hours, mass suicide for 'lulz', rinse/repeat ad nauseum. I think it's pretty obvious the players that want it easy in this game and it isn't those you accuse of.


Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:11:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 03/06/2008 14:50:40
I love how everyone reads the bolded:
Quote:
Greyscale: Before anyone jumps to conclusions, what we're mainly looking at is small, common-sense adjustments to tune down the randomized griefing and opportunistic free lunch attacks without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."


and not

Quote:
Greyscale: Before anyone jumps to conclusions, what we're mainly looking at is small, common-sense adjustments to tune down the randomized griefing and opportunistic free lunch attacks without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."


Christ, mountain, meet molehill.

End of the day, only reason why this carebear has a fat wallet is because all the PvPers buy my ships and weapons. Rolling Eyes


The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

IMO CCP has already made up it's mind about how they're going to nerf high sec attacks (no, it's not 'griefing') and they're just slowly getting the sheep in Eve (i.e. the general population) acclimated to the idea.

So yeah, the last time they made any 'small, common-sense adjustments' to Eve, we had a 20% damage reduction to high damage ammo, a 25% increase in HP, drone bandwidth introduced, the removale of drone shield recharge upon scooping, the castration of sensor damps... the list goes on.

The whole point of the post is to nip this garbage in the bud, before it can go anywhere, but I still don't see that happening. I think CCP will just ignore it and f#ck it up anyway.

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:12:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Faife on 03/06/2008 20:12:09
OP: the phrase "before anyone jumps to conclusion" does NOT mean "please immediately jump to conclusion like a ****tard"

i'm guessing english is your 4th language? if so, grats, you're almost fluent. much better than me in my fourth.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:15:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:08:58
Bellum Eternus,

There's a difference between a playstyle and plain out griefing. That you choose to ignore the difference is all on you. Don't come here and defend griefing as a legitimate play style just as any other play style. Because it just isn't.

And forget the high sec 'stupid' people, as you call them. What I want is consequences for your actions for breaking the laws in high sec. Slaps in the hands for silly "lulz" obviously isn't cutting it anymore.




There is. Security hits are very real consequences. It takes quite a while to rat your sec back up, and not everyone is in a 0.0 carebear alliance where they can spend all week fixing their sec as fast as possible with little risk.

How about if CCP removed insurance payouts? Then popping a hauler with a BC wouldn't cost you 8m or so, it would cost you 25-30m or more. The only rub is that CCP would have to remove ALL insurance payouts to ALL ships, to make it fair. I'm willing to accept such a change. Are the rest of the carebears? After all, a change like this would only hurt the less skilled players in Eve. And by skilled, I'm not talking about skillpoints.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:16:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Faife
Edited by: Faife on 03/06/2008 20:12:09
OP: the phrase "before anyone jumps to conclusion" does NOT mean "please immediately jump to conclusion like a ****tard"

i'm guessing english is your 4th language? if so, grats, you're almost fluent. much better than me in my fourth.


Impressive. Personal attacks, the last bastion of the stupid and inept?

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:18:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

So the devs are not allowed to discuss what may or may not be considering adding to the drawing board without corporate approval first? I don't believe that is true.

Quote:
Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

WTZ was dumb? Really? So you miss copying hundreds of bookmarks in order to survive in low-sec or 0.0? Or do you perhaps miss the additional database lag?

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:18:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Shintai on 03/06/2008 20:21:17
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: Exlegion
Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:08:58
Bellum Eternus,

There's a difference between a playstyle and plain out griefing. That you choose to ignore the difference is all on you. Don't come here and defend griefing as a legitimate play style just as any other play style. Because it just isn't.

And forget the high sec 'stupid' people, as you call them. What I want is consequences for your actions for breaking the laws in high sec. Slaps in the hands for silly "lulz" obviously isn't cutting it anymore.




There is. Security hits are very real consequences. It takes quite a while to rat your sec back up, and not everyone is in a 0.0 carebear alliance where they can spend all week fixing their sec as fast as possible with little risk.

How about if CCP removed insurance payouts? Then popping a hauler with a BC wouldn't cost you 8m or so, it would cost you 25-30m or more. The only rub is that CCP would have to remove ALL insurance payouts to ALL ships, to make it fair. I'm willing to accept such a change. Are the rest of the carebears? After all, a change like this would only hurt the less skilled players in Eve. And by skilled, I'm not talking about skillpoints.


How many ships you suicided did you think had insurance? And you babble about fair? LOL...lookup the word hypocrite.

In short YOU again biatch and moan about YOU cant play on EASYMODE because your skill and talent suck! Yet to all others you would most likely use the phrase STFU and adapt!

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:20:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:20:02
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

IMO CCP has already made up it's mind about how they're going to nerf high sec attacks (no, it's not 'griefing') and they're just slowly getting the sheep in Eve (i.e. the general population) acclimated to the idea.

So yeah, the last time they made any 'small, common-sense adjustments' to Eve, we had a 20% damage reduction to high damage ammo, a 25% increase in HP, drone bandwidth introduced, the removale of drone shield recharge upon scooping, the castration of sensor damps... the list goes on.

The whole point of the post is to nip this garbage in the bud, before it can go anywhere, but I still don't see that happening. I think CCP will just ignore it and f#ck it up anyway.


And those changes were wrong because you say they were wrong? I happen to like the direction Eve is headed in. Why does your opinion matter more than mine? I'm stupid and you're not? It's fine for you to express your opinions. But for you to belittle and insult the players that don't agree with you shows alot about your personality.


Havok Pierce
Gallente
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:24:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Maalan
I just say we add the ability for manufacturers to not allow someone to buy their stuff based on standing. Then the suiciders would suddenly find a lot less to buy on the market...

Though this would probably fail miserably between the Goons infrastructure and greedy manufacturers...


Where's your head?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:24:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
One detail that never ceases to amaze me in this debate are number of knuckle dragging idiots that talk about using "available defense options"

Word to the wise: There are Two, and ONLY Two defense options that are truly effective:
--Fly a ship that gets into warp so fast they dont have time to scan you, and use warp to zero.
--Fly empty (or at least no more than a few million in cargo value if in a tough ship)

That means Frigates, shuttles and Blockade runners.

NOTHING can "defend" a Frieghter. The defence a reasonable escort group can make in the time that the combat is decided is "nearly" meaningless.

and the notion that no frieghter should EVER fly with cargo EVEN IN EMPIRE, unless escorted, is just too stupid for words...... (and yes, thats what the "defend yourself" morons are basicly suggesting, regardless of if they admit it or not....)

The idea that every time a ship undocks with more than 100mil in cargo, he should have a combat escort is even more brain dead, and once again, thats whats some fools are effectively suggesting, regardless of if they admit it or not.

And its a whole additional magnitude of stupidity to actually expect players to choose between "Not hauling cargo" and "making several friends fly escort just move a 100mil worth of stuff in empire".

Carebearism in 0.5+ empire is ftw. THATS WHERE THE CAREBEARISM IS SUSPOSE TO BE. If you dont like it, LEAVE EMPIRE.

I live in 0.0, and have for a long time, but I never lost any sleep over empire carebearism, and never will. On the contrary, I was pleased that a ruthless game Eve could support varied styles of play.

That ability of Eve to support such varied styles of play is severely threatened. To be clear, it is NOT threatened simply by "Suicide Ganking" (which has always exitsed). It is threatened by "Common, Casual and Cheap Suicide Ganking"

Eve Needs to return to as it was. 0.5+ Suicide ganking Should not be common, it should not be casual and it should not be cheap. Having said that, "Focused, Rare, and Expensive" suicide ganking is cool. Everyone like to take part in, or read about a brillant plan successfully concluded (except maybe the target....)

Common, Casual and Cheap Suicide ganking in 0.5+ needs to cease to exist. Let em suicide gank, suicide ganking is fine, but NOT if it is "Common, Casual and Cheap".



I've flown freighters with 20b+ in the hold quite often, and always with zero issues in high sec. I guess I must be doing some crazy cheat method in order to escape the high sec gank squads that I pass? It's beyond me how I don't seem to have any problems being ganked (never have in high sec), yet so many other people die every day. What is it that is the difference? If I can figure it out, then why can't other players? Am I just *that* much smarter than everyone else?

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:25:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 03/06/2008 20:27:34
Originally by: Mangtoos

If that's the case, then stupid people will always remain stupid. Changing game mechanics will not infuse them with intellegence.


No, it won't change peoples intelligence. However, what it obviously will do is make it too costly for them to do it all day long, "just for the lulz". Which is the entire point.

Which you must understand, despite playing your obtuse part here. Your acting is weak.

Kolwrath
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:25:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Kolwrath on 03/06/2008 20:27:09
Originally by: Sarin Adler
Remove Concord kill insurance payment and it's fixed, this has been suggested bazillion times, CCP why the heck don't you do it? Do you like exploiters!?


Because the consequences of removing insurance payouts go beyond suicide ganking. Use the search tool and you will find the dev post about it.

Unlike what all EVE players seem to think, its not a cut and dry issue.

Edit: my god the speculation, name calling, tin foil hattery in this thread is truly off the charts.

Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:25:00 - [139]
 

Here's a thought that I don't think I've ever heard of before:

When someone shoots in high-sec and becomes flagged to Concord, they become flagged to EVERYONE there. People are then allowed to shoot/EWAR/whatever that person and that person only, without Concord shooting them back. I imagine that a smart-bombing Raven pilot in Jita would think twice when confronted with the idea that suddenly they're faced with about a hundred pilots all turning upon him the second he turns his smartbombs on.

Ice Baby
Caldari
Ice Cream Express
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:27:00 - [140]
 

It's funny how the elite "PvP"ers/griefers are the worst PvPers and need to whine here. Do a haul trip through empire and see how many cargoscans you recieve, it aint few, clearly suicide ganking is too profitable.

What about nub whine griefers coming to 0.0 and show us what they are made of?

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:30:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

So the devs are not allowed to discuss what may or may not be considering adding to the drawing board without corporate approval first? I don't believe that is true.

Quote:
Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

WTZ was dumb? Really? So you miss copying hundreds of bookmarks in order to survive in low-sec or 0.0? Or do you perhaps miss the additional database lag?


As a gameplay mechanic, it was a bad design change. Of course the technical limitations forced the change. I still don't see what the difference is, as I have 10-12K (yes, Thousand) BMs. CCP did everything they could to make copying BMs as painful as possible, and when the players still did it, they removed them entirely.

This is a PERFECT example of what will be happening to high sec killing. The carebears will whine and whine until it's just removed from the game across the board. CCP will continue to marginalize the game until it's a pile of oatmeal.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:32:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Here's a thought that I don't think I've ever heard of before:

When someone shoots in high-sec and becomes flagged to Concord, they become flagged to EVERYONE there. People are then allowed to shoot/EWAR/whatever that person and that person only, without Concord shooting them back. I imagine that a smart-bombing Raven pilot in Jita would think twice when confronted with the idea that suddenly they're faced with about a hundred pilots all turning upon him the second he turns his smartbombs on.


It's been suggested before, but it won't do anything against ganks. Gankers are planning on loosing their ship within 30 seconds (or less) of opening fire anyway, players firing alongside concord changes nothing. The issue is cost, or rather, the lack of it.

Noodle Pastaman
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:33:00 - [143]
 

PVP has no place whatsoever in hi sec, its a place for trade and PVE
Don't like it go to low/nil sec or go play Quake

Quite obvious thats the view of the vast majority of people who live there are, would love to see a vote on and it I think the griefers would be in for one serious shock

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:33:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Here's a thought that I don't think I've ever heard of before:

When someone shoots in high-sec and becomes flagged to Concord, they become flagged to EVERYONE there. People are then allowed to shoot/EWAR/whatever that person and that person only, without Concord shooting them back. I imagine that a smart-bombing Raven pilot in Jita would think twice when confronted with the idea that suddenly they're faced with about a hundred pilots all turning upon him the second he turns his smartbombs on.


This is already the case. If you attack anyone, high sec or no, you're criminally flagged and can be attacked by anyone. Good luck locking them and getting the kill before CONCORD does. It's always funny to me how little grasp of Eve's rules of engagement the general Eve populace has.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:36:00 - [145]
 

OMG NO MORE BRAINDEAD EASY EXHUMERKILLS!!!!111ONE!!! CCP IS SO AGAINST PVPERS!!!

oh please... suicide ganking a hulk with a few cheap cruisers is NOT pvp as ccp had in mind and u all damn well know it! So stop the sad 'omg ccp is caving to the whining carebears and should cater the whining empire griefers instead' act please. Rolling Eyes

Gealbhan
Caldari
GealCorp
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:38:00 - [146]
 

I've been shot at, blown up, smack talked etc. have I ever complained once? NO.

I like the fact that eve is a harsh world. If it was dumbed down to a hand-holding "Sims in Space" type of game I'd leave and I consider myself 70% carebear!

There's a reason we say "GB2WoW".

/end rant.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:39:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I've flown freighters with 20b+ in the hold quite often, and always with zero issues in high sec. I guess I must be doing some crazy cheat method in order to escape the high sec gank squads that I pass? It's beyond me how I don't seem to have any problems being ganked (never have in high sec), yet so many other people die every day. What is it that is the difference? If I can figure it out, then why can't other players? Am I just *that* much smarter than everyone else?


Alot of us have. But thats not the point since a freighter is rarely ganked due to the BS amount requirement, teamwork and planning. Something that excludes the majority of suicide people. And I dont think thats what we want to stop either. Its simply so rare.

But the issue is when xxxWannabeeGanker1xxx ganks an itty5 with 2million pyr in with his thorax. Simply because its worth it. And usually the character is recycled for the purpose. Very easily done on trial accounts aswell. Or one in a BC ganking the same or alittle higher value. Or the Hulk/Mack ganks with thoraxes, vexors, brutix etc over basicly nothing.

Its not about moving 100million or 20billion. Its already a problem when you move 10million up. Sometimes even empty worthless haulers get ganked. Its just so cheap and easy that you dont even have to look in the cargo.

emepror
Gallente
Ferrius Vigalans Razoris
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:43:00 - [148]
 

just dont forget that carebears run our economy

Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:57:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: emepror
just dont forget that carebears run our economy


Both EvE's and CCP's.

FarosWarrior
Amarr
Pure Dutch Damage Corp
Care Factor
Posted - 2008.06.03 21:10:00 - [150]
 

I don't know what the hell the tpoic starter is whining about, highsec suiciders are nothing more then rl suicide terrorists, only difference is that they only loose a ship... irl youre really dead.

imo CCP should NOT remove any kind of highsec suicide bombing cause no-one likes it, I admit that I have not lost any ships due to those people and i'm sorry for everyone that did, but that brings in 2 more messages:
1: don't fly ships you can't afford to loose
2: CONCORD provides consequences, not safety


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