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blankseplocked Militia - A New Easy Form of Team Killing Piracy?
 
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LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: LtCol Killgore on 30/05/2008 22:43:41
Several ways to exploit the Militia system by 'team-killing' people have been found. It is an easy form of piracy involving either baiting people into gangs or just killing unsuspecting people in the same Militia.

There are large standings loss for individuals for shooting fellow Militia members, which would presumably result in you getting kicked from the Militia before you could make a 'career' out of it. Unfortunately, there seems to be many easy ways to get around this.

One of the themes of the Militia system seems to be trying to get random people to band together under the flag of a faction. This can be easily abused, by getting people to join a gang using a Militia member, then shooting them with non Militia aligned chars. The Militia char takes no sec hit, and is free to bait away all day. My guess is it will become like normal mission running; accepting an invite to help someone will be a short trip to an insurance payout

It also seems that whole corps could remain immune to being chucked out of a Militia by simply having static members with high standings (mission running alts) to keep the standings average up.

Overall I think that the system could work fine, but just needs some serious safeguards put into place. Even just CCP declaring these activites an exploit would hopefully do the job. What I have played on SISI has been great fun because it was all free, but in its current state, it will probabily not survive the economic brutality of Tranquility.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:47:00 - [2]
 

1/ It's an NPC corp
2/ you would loose standings until you get kicked from the militia


You can do what you are saying on the opposite factions... You can shoot gallente people and be fine. But the gallente navy will help them when they are at home.

LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:51:00 - [3]
 

1.)It may be an NPC corp, but as far as I'm aware, they've been given the same mechanics as player controlled corps to enable faction war-fare.

2.) The standings loss would have to be huge, and would have to result in a ban. Otherwise it would just be like getting your sec status back up with normal piracy, something people are happy to do.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.05.29 13:53:00 - [4]
 

I've been told you can't shoot your corpmates in hisec without concord kicking your ass, well, this would need a simple check on sisi.

LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
I've been told you can't shoot your corpmates in hisec without concord kicking your ass, well, this would need a simple check on sisi.


Yes, as stated in my edit, High-Sec will get you concorded, (Thanks again to Wesley for testing it) but that doesn't stop people shooting 'friendlies' in null/low-sec where 99% of the militia objectives will be.

My worry is that by joining a Militia, pirates will be able to gank their own team mates with relative ease, only having to worry about increasing their standings once in a while in the same way they do with sec status.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:11:00 - [6]
 

Team killing would lead to security and faction standing (or just militia?) loss, maybe they aren't high enough.
But the other way is causing standing losses to players trying to make yourself killed if they ever use smartbombs or such things.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:13:00 - [7]
 

Presumably team killing will lead to a faction drop and then you get kicked out of the militia.


Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
I've been told you can't shoot your corpmates in hisec without concord kicking your ass, well, this would need a simple check on sisi.

You even get the warning in low sec that you're about to be a bad guy. I know this because I have been needy and wanted to nos a teammate for cap because my passive setup isnt cap stable.

The only way to do it is if the teammate is flashing red as they have global or something.

LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:24:00 - [9]
 

Yes, it's definately an issue that needs to be looked at, and it'l be hard to draw the line.

The only thing I can think of is if you get killed by a fellow Militia member, you get a mail asking if you consider the kill accident or malicious. This wont stop a fat geek venting his childhood on you when your carrier smartbombs his frigate to death, but would be a start.

Another issue/possible exploit of the Militia system would be pirate gangs using a Militia alt to web/scram/jam a fellow Militia member, then warp in and pwn it with non-militia chars. The Militia alt might be left free of standing consequence as they wouldn't cause any damage to the target ship and might be left off the killmail etc? (don't know if EW alone is enough to get you on killmails etc, I always shoot too, even if its just rockets on a BSYARRRR!!)

Baiting of Militia members to join gangs etc would be just like mission baiting, only easier as the whole point of Militia is that random people can join together in pvp.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:35:00 - [10]
 

All hostile module activation gets you to be on killmail.

Countless mails shows interceptors with warp disruptor as weapon, they didn't take a shot, trying to stay alive rather than shooting.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:32:00 - [11]
 

More to the point, activating EW on a target gets you the same security hit as shooting them.

Can somebody who has tested it report on what standings hit--if any--you get with your militia if aggressing/destroying/podkilling someone in the same militia?

Qduhaf
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:40:00 - [12]
 

I asked this question in an earlier thread, and CCP MITTNAL locked the thread, with a statement that was a simple as this, PVP is part of EVE, Griefing is not.

So owuld say that petition system might be only choice in these situations.

But really I think the 0.0 and pirate alliances will be the ones you need to look out for, they are all looking at this as great chance to kill pvp noobs

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.29 15:49:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: LtCol Killgore
1.)It may be an NPC corp, but as far as I'm aware, they've been given the same mechanics as player controlled corps to enable faction war-fare.




More like an alliance, so no free "corpmate" shooting.

Slate Fistcrunch
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:39:00 - [14]
 

The point is that you can go -10, join a militia through your corp that has other high standing characters to offset your bad standing, go into the complex, sneak up on your fellow militiamen, and blaster eat their face.

Concept is called "double agent" or "traitor" and unless CCP says explicitly this is an exploit I will consider it a fair and fun alternative (since changing your faction standings is not realistic).

LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.29 18:33:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch
The point is that you can go -10, join a militia through your corp that has other high standing characters to offset your bad standing, go into the complex, sneak up on your fellow militiamen, and blaster eat their face.

Concept is called "double agent" or "traitor" and unless CCP says explicitly this is an exploit I will consider it a fair and fun alternative (since changing your faction standings is not realistic).


Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. You could even just use a Militia alt to bait people into a gang, then pwn them with non-militia chars

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.05.29 18:51:00 - [16]
 

They're NPC corps. Trust really shouldn't be entering into it.

I think there should be some standings consequences for aggressing a fellow militia member (And don't forget, anything like that will also be exploitable by pirates themselves.) but just being in FW isn't a licence to suddenly become stupid and forget all the basic rules of EVE.

Slate Fistcrunch
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.05.29 21:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
They're NPC corps. Trust really shouldn't be entering into it.

I think there should be some standings consequences for aggressing a fellow militia member (And don't forget, anything like that will also be exploitable by pirates themselves.) but just being in FW isn't a licence to suddenly become stupid and forget all the basic rules of EVE.



Even if your standing drops to -10 upon killing your first fellow militiaman, the way the system works your corp won't be kicked. You won't be able to detect traitors by security status either since non-aligned 1 day alts can come into the site to scout for their mains. So some legit militiamen are going to have to go -10 to keep all the bloody 1 day alts out of the site.

So in the end unless you're flying with your close buds, you're going to have to consider everyone else a possible enemy regardless of alignment.


Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.05.29 21:56:00 - [18]
 

Are we disagreeing over something, Slate? I can't tell.

Ki Tarra
Ki Tech Industries
Posted - 2008.05.29 22:34:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch
So in the end unless you're flying with your close buds, you're going to have to consider everyone else a possible enemy regardless of alignment.
Now all we need is CCP to repeat this along with the usual: working as intended. YARRRR!!

Kind of defeats the purpose of having NPC militia corps though. Confused

Slate Fistcrunch
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.05.30 02:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Are we disagreeing over something, Slate? I can't tell.


Not really disagreeing. Both making observations / predictions.

You suggested faction hit for attacking fellow militiamen. I think this already happens but I was saying that's not going to get you kicked due to the way corps in militias work.

As far as the rest, I just feel that if you're going to have faction warfare then it should feel like your faction versus another faction. We both realize it's really just going to be one huge free for all. Pirates will love this.

rValdez5987
Amarr
Imperial Guard.
Posted - 2008.05.30 06:11:00 - [21]
 

I blew up a fellow militia members drone and lost over .5 standing with my militia.

Thats just from killing a drone.

On top of this, I was evidentally flagged as a criminal or somethign on everyones overview, because they proceeded to completely rip apart my ship, without realizing that I was a fellow militia member.

I am fairly confident that the system in place will prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Also its easy to get removed from the factional warfare with the huge standings loss.

Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2008.05.30 10:51:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: rValdez5987
On top of this, I was evidentally flagged as a criminal or somethign on everyones overview, because they proceeded to completely rip apart my ship, without realizing that I was a fellow militia member.


This made me smile :)

Looks like internal policing is already underway ..

PeHD0M
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:23:00 - [23]
 

Relax peeps this expansion will go the same way as L5 agents. Devs simply added "capture the flag" minigame in eve and crap agents for those few carebears, who like difficulties (high risk and no reward). Very Happy

I'm in serious doubt that this whole idea will work on TQ.

Wesley Baird
D00M.
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.05.30 13:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: PeHD0M
I'm in serious doubt that this whole idea will work on TQ.


It will work, but not as expected.

o/


Shinzu Takigawa
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.05.30 14:52:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Shinzu Takigawa on 30/05/2008 14:56:08
Good issue and is totally true. Happens all the time on sisi and will probably on TQ where militia allys blew up other allys just to do it and would be done for piracy on TQ.

Also another thing was pirates or neuts joining up with militia gangs as un-official allies just to win fights and all militia are told not to shoot those "un-official allies".

There is loads of room for abuse. Plus the fact people bringing in cap ships just to wipe the floor of a large engagement and then jumping out again. Repeat and rinse. Obviously this happens more on sisi because of the prices.

One good thing this will bring to EVE TQ is a boost in the industry market and side of the game. Guna be lots of ships that need replacing :)

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.05.30 16:33:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: rValdez5987
I blew up a fellow militia members drone and lost over .5 standing with my militia.


That's good to hear.

Quote:
I am fairly confident that the system in place will prevent this sort of thing from happening.


I doubt that very much. But I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily. Particularly not for the initial release.

Quote:
Also its easy to get removed from the factional warfare with the huge standings loss.


If I understand things correctly, that will be the case with individuals enrolled in the militia, but not with corps unless the whole corp goes below .5. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)

I see the standings hit as a good thing, but only as a small deterrent and a little more of a flag that specific people and maybe corps might not be so trustworthy. It won't keep anybody determined to manipulate the system as a traitor from doing so.

But again, I don't see that as inherently a terrible thing. I'm more "wait and see".

LtCol Killgore
Posted - 2008.05.30 22:48:00 - [27]
 

Hopefully CCP will sort something out, or at least acknowledge the concerns???

*cough* GM bait *cough*

Nomen Nescio
Posted - 2008.05.31 04:57:00 - [28]
 

Let me tell you something, just sit down. FW is a specifically designed to cause grief, in case you missed details, read this:


  • Once you are in militia, you can NOT go to enemy NPC high sec - the NPC faction fleet will fire on you, so you are constrained in empire space of your friendly factions. Not everyone can shop in jita now


  • All your missions and hot spots for FW are in low sec, which even now is infested with pirate corps, not because they are so many, but because with -10 sec they have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO and they are bored to death and waiting ANY target jump a gate to gang it. I bet you they are flocking to the FW systems already just to have front row seats


  • To enter level 1 FW missions you have to have small t1 ship, to enter level 2 FW missions you need t1 cruiser or t2 frig, but pirates have no limits on this, because enemy militia or pirates do not have to enter the mission gate, they can CAMP the gate with capital ships for all they care, but you HAVE enter on this small ship


  • Once you activate a FW mission/hot spot, A BEACON appears in the system for EVERYONE to see and WARP TO. You start an encounter for FW, everyone in the system is already aligning to warp to you in a half of a minute



Now, son, tell me honestly, are you prepared to be a bright blinking target for both enemy militia and all pirates around and to lose half of secure space as no fly zone due to enemy faction NPC on the gates? And miss not only a support of a corp and alliance which has no standing or interested in FW, but even be constrained by ship size and tech level and rely on a bunch of random people from your militia to be you best brothers in arms against that pirate griefing camp.

PS
But if you want an exploit of a system? Sure, here you go, you get points for capping a hot spot objective OR by taking if from enemy. So you have 2 chars, in different militias, you enter with one char start capping when fly with another char and "defending it", here is your LP points, brave pilot, well done. Thats if you dont get blasted on your 10 jumps into the low sec system and back to the agent that is.

And this is supposed to rise interested for pvp in people, just so you know.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2008.05.31 08:01:00 - [29]
 

The penalty for shooting ones own/allied militia needs to be massive for this not become a problem.

Standing decrease with militia is not enough if you ask me, it is too easy to gain in the first place. It has to be faction decrease .. this will severely limit the time a malcontent can be in any given militia and would mimic the society wide disdain such actions invoke in reality.

The mission side of FW will never amount to anything. The beacon being visible to anyone raises the risks so far above any potential rewards that they are simply not viable.
You currently get better militia standings over time capturing/defending sites, which leaves loyalty points and ISK as prime motivators. ISK is easily acquired doing normal missions in high-sec space and unless militia specific LP store offers are extremely juicy the LP will never be enough.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.05.31 10:25:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 31/05/2008 10:27:01

  • Once you are in militia, you can NOT go to enemy NPC high sec - the NPC faction fleet will fire on you, so you are constrained in empire space of your friendly factions. Not everyone can shop in jita now
  • That really is not that much of a bother, there are well function trade hubs outside of Jita that will hopefully get a bit more of a boost due to FW. And if you really need to go to Jita you can always use an alt.

  • All your missions and hot spots for FW are in low sec, which even now is infested with pirate corps, not because they are so many, but because with -10 sec they have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO and they are bored to death and waiting ANY target jump a gate to gang it. I bet you they are flocking to the FW systems already just to have front row seats
  • They most likely are, but they are facing troubles where to exactly to put their efforts. See the following...

  • To enter level 1 FW missions you have to have small t1 ship, to enter level 2 FW missions you need t1 cruiser or t2 frig, but pirates have no limits on this, because enemy militia or pirates do not have to enter the mission gate, they can CAMP the gate with capital ships for all they care, but you HAVE enter on this small ship
  • Oh they can camp the entrance with a mothership for all I care, if I am already in the complex with a couple of wing men fulfilling the objectives their camp is of little relevance to me.

  • Once you activate a FW mission/hot spot, A BEACON appears in the system for EVERYONE to see and WARP TO. You start an encounter for FW, everyone in the system is already aligning to warp to you in a half of a minute
  • Yes indeed, but as the beacon pop up as me and my wing men are entering warp chances are pretty good that we will be first at the site and through the gate before anybody else. We might even start camping the warp in zone of the acceleration gate to waste any potential threats coming in.


There is nothing that forces you to complete FW missions or contested sites. If the opposition is too strong it is very simple to find a new site to conquer. Pirate camping is not something I am going to worry about because there will be no ideal place for the pirates to camp as you can change your scene of operations at whim. To be efficient the pirates will have to work on a roaming basis and will in that case be no more dangerous than the militia members on the opponents team. Even less dangerous, as everybody would like to waste a pirate or two.

You are assuming that everybody in the militias will be crap at PvP, I seriously doubt that. The pirates will get their kills, but if they want to kill me they will have to work for it.


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