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Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Khan Soriano on 30/05/2008 14:20:22
I searched a little bit and compiled a list of changes to Black Ops proposed by EVE playerbase:

  • More cargospace or dedicated fuel bay

  • Possibility to use Covert Ops Cloak

  • Increased jump range

  • More types of ship to jump with

  • Longer portal time span and larger activation area

  • Ability to jump into jump-locked systems

  • Make it at least strong as its T1 counterpart.

  • Remove or reduce the reactivation delay on cloaks

  • Remove or reduce scan resolution penalty

  • Make them a long range ship so they could 'siege' POS infrastructure

  • Other ships can fit an ability rig to use Covert Ops Jump bridge

  • Create two types of Black Ops, one with cloack and jump capability and one for combat/ew

  • Covert Cyno generator can be activated while the Covert Ops cloak is engaged

  • Ships with Covert Ops cloak can jump through the Covert Jump Bridge with cloak activated

  • Being in proximity to a Black Ops ship doesn't uncloak you


If I missed anything point it out and it will be added.

Personally I'd choose almost of them (maybe except more ships being able to jump and buffing them to match their T1 version) and no I don't think it would be overpowered. Hear me out:

Some people (and CCP apparently) are afraid Black Ops would be used to jump on unsuspecting NPCers if they got ability to warp cloaked, that it would be used as combat tool and not for concealment/survival.

Two or three years ago I'd probably agree but EVE changed since then... majority of 0.0 players (look at the map and see what kind of majority are we talking about) gets their money on missions anyway and all of them run from belts if they see anybody on local (they even have programs to do it for them). Low-sec is empty since forever except for pirates fighting pirates but they won't care anyway, nobody will jump on them in 1bn battleship when they're camping gates. High-sec is well... high-sec. Where this advantage will be used as a combat tool?

It will however help this 1bn(with fit), barely insured, weaker then BS, ship survive and be used.

Pimped out jumping capability could be its main weapon, we would finally have a tool to disable those cyno-jammers and other POS infrastructure. Because the number of ships that can jump through would be still limited we would have a small gang with a purpose (that's what previous patch was supposed to deliver) and since the ship is expensive and skill intensive it wouldn't be used to spam hostile systems with 'small gangs' wrecking havok left and right.

Discuss.

Milky Milky
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:42:00 - [2]
 

Seems to me that if you allow wider range of ships in, and allow jumping into jumplocked systems, then big alliances will just send one black ops in, who will jump in nine others, who will all jump in 10% of a blob each, then cloak. Really 10bill in recoverable assets, to get a fleet into a jumplocked system is peanuts to alliances that can field a fleet of multiple titans...

For the record: I don't fly Black Ops, have never seen a Titan, and dont think Ive ever been in a jump locked system. So if Im way wrong, ignore me :)

Smantha Dering
Caldari
Profit Seekers
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:48:00 - [3]
 

I agree with the Covert Ops Cloak. I'm a cov-ops/recon pilot, this ship is not worth training until it can use a Covert Ops Cloak.

Miyamoto Shigesuke
Jugis Modo Utopia
THE KLINGONS
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:48:00 - [4]
 

I agree with most of your points, and I would add one more.
Make it at least strong as its T1 counterpart.
The larger cargo space could be replaced with lower fuel consumption though.

Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:55:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Khan Soriano


  • More cargospace or dedicated fuel bay

  • Possibility to use Covert Ops Cloak

  • Increased jump range

  • More types of ship to jump with

  • Longer portal time span and larger activation area

  • Ability to jump into jump-locked systems





Khan you touched the major points, but the point I want to make is that the community is not demanding all these changes, but listing a group of possible changes to help the ship. If all of these were implemented it would be over-powered.

1 - More cargo space or less fuel consumption - I agree with this
2- Covert Ops Cloak - I am not in full agreement with this. Could be a possibility, but depends on what other changes happen
3- Increased Jump range. I would like to see a 3.5 ly range - at least on par with a titan.
4- More ship types that can be bridged: Ships like recons, covert ops and stealth bombers have no problems getting across blockades and would never need to be bridged by a Black OPs. The ship types allowed should instead by Heavy Assault Ships, Combat Recons, Interdictors, Interceptors, Assault Ships and Heavy Interdictors. So everything cruiser sized and smaller.

5- Longer portal time span and activation area: I think it would be nice but I generally disagree with this. The covert ops jump bridge does not consume strontium (the one on the titan does), so opening it a number of times is not a big deal. I would not demand this as a change since its impact is so small compared to others.

6- Jumping into Cyno-Jammed systems: It would be nice if covert cyno fields could be opened in cyno jammed systems.

Some of them could use more PG, but that is a different issue.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:07:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Milky Milky
Seems to me that if you allow wider range of ships in, and allow jumping into jumplocked systems, then big alliances will just send one black ops in, who will jump in nine others, who will all jump in 10% of a blob each, then cloak. Really 10bill in recoverable assets, to get a fleet into a jumplocked system is peanuts to alliances that can field a fleet of multiple titans...

For the record: I don't fly Black Ops, have never seen a Titan, and dont think Ive ever been in a jump locked system. So if Im way wrong, ignore me :)

Consider yourself ignoredVery Happy The idea is not to jump BS and Capitals but smaller ships for covert operations behind enemy lines.
Originally by: Miyamoto Shigesuke
I agree with most of your points, and I would add one more.
Make it at least strong as its T1 counterpart.
The larger cargo space could be replaced with lower fuel consumption though.

Hmm... I'll add your proposition to the list but I find it strange. This ship class needs a role and being better at BSes job than BS is not one.
Originally by: Saladin

Khan you touched the major points, but the point I want to make is that the community is not demanding all these changes, but listing a group of possible changes to help the ship. If all of these were implemented it would be over-powered.

1 - More cargo space or less fuel consumption - I agree with this
2- Covert Ops Cloak - I am not in full agreement with this. Could be a possibility, but depends on what other changes happen
3- Increased Jump range. I would like to see a 3.5 ly range - at least on par with a titan.
4- More ship types that can be bridged: Ships like recons, covert ops and stealth bombers have no problems getting across blockades and would never need to be bridged by a Black OPs. The ship types allowed should instead by Heavy Assault Ships, Combat Recons, Interdictors, Interceptors, Assault Ships and Heavy Interdictors. So everything cruiser sized and smaller.

5- Longer portal time span and activation area: I think it would be nice but I generally disagree with this. The covert ops jump bridge does not consume strontium (the one on the titan does), so opening it a number of times is not a big deal. I would not demand this as a change since its impact is so small compared to others.

6- Jumping into Cyno-Jammed systems: It would be nice if covert cyno fields could be opened in cyno jammed systems.

Some of them could use more PG, but that is a different issue.

I would go completely different about those ships than you but it's a good propositon too.

Indigo Johnson
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:20:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Khan Soriano
I searched a little bit and compiled a list of changes to Black Ops proposed by EVE playerbase:

  • More cargospace or dedicated fuel bay

  • Possibility to use Covert Ops Cloak

  • Increased jump range

  • More types of ship to jump with

  • Longer portal time span and larger activation area

  • Ability to jump into jump-locked systems


Discuss.

1. yes please, this only seems fair, or introduce a refuleing ship that jumps with the covert ships with a refueling role of somekind. In any case there are lots of possible variations. Increase the ships cap regen time and allow it to jump w/o isotopes using only its cap...could be an idea???

2. Giving the ship the ability to warp cloaked is wrong in my opinion, reason? They are ambush ships not stealth hunter ships.

3.Increasing the jump range, YES! and possibly allowing the ships to jump into cyno jammed systems.

4. Light dictors? Other than that, i think what can possibly use the portal is fine.

5. OK

6. Yes, (as said) otherwise as eve grows with more and more systems having a cyno jammer in place these ships lose their role a bit. Of course, the cyno jammer could be changed to buff covert bs also i suppose.

Other points
Would say give the Sin the cpu/grid and an extra turret slot while getting rid of the agility bonus for a Falloff bonus. Convert the panther from a turret based ship to a missile based ship (same base bonuses as the widow) but (if this is done) get rid of the velocity bonus for a target painting bonus Razz. Give the Redeemer a damage bonus per level and not a tracking bonus and subtract 1 turret and reblance grid/cpu as required, posisbly replace a low for a mid. Widow, is ok, role is more support than damage ship.

The above tweaks would make the Sin's, Redeemer and Panthars role: ambush/damage with the widow being support. This also follows quite well fromt the tech battleship roles where the Domi, Typhoon and Geddon are all dmg ships with the Scorp filling a support role.

Ps. bits of dreams mixed in with actual thoughts Razz

Beef Hardslab
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:22:00 - [8]
 

I disagree with the CovOps cloak, not because it wouldn't be omg awesome, but because it'd be too awesome.

A couple things I think need addressed that you missed:

-Remove or reduce the reactivation delay on cloaks, like the stealthbombers get. In a stealthbomber, you can decloak, and then recloak within 3-5 seconds or so. In a Black Ops, once you decloak, you cannot recloak for 30 seconds. I think this is wrong.

-Reduce scan res penalty for fitting a cloak. BS size ships don't have the greatest scan res to begin with, gimping it with the pretty much required cloak doesn't make much sense.

AbdullahAhmed
Caldari
The Executives
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:27:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: AbdullahAhmed on 28/05/2008 16:29:07
I think they could use a scan resolution boost.
Recloaking time also needs to be reduced or removed.

maarud
The Scope
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:31:00 - [10]
 

While I'd like to see them use covert-ops cloaks, I think it would make them over-powered. Can you imagine the dmg a sin would end up doing alone.

These ships def need a boost though and maybe a reduction in the cost to build them too.

Indigo Johnson
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:34:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 28/05/2008 16:34:06
Originally by: maarud
While I'd like to see them use covert-ops cloaks, I think it would make them over-powered. Can you imagine the dmg a sin would end up doing alone.

These ships def need a boost though and maybe a reduction in the cost to build them too.

Agreed, though that looks like it will only come if t2 component prices fall (when the talk about regig of moon minerals so Neo and Thulium are used in the same amounts as Dysproisum and Prom occurs?) or the demand picks up a bit. Though they are speciality ships so vov

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:52:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 28/05/2008 16:54:41
Originally by: Khan Soriano

  • More cargospace or dedicated fuel bay

  • Possibility to use Covert Ops Cloak

  • Increased jump range

  • More types of ship to jump with

  • Longer portal time span and larger activation area

  • Ability to jump into jump-locked systems

  • Make it at least strong as its T1 counterpart.




1. Absolutely. Either that or change one of the bonuses on all Black Ops Battleships (BOBs) to '10% reduction to *** required for Covert Jump Bridge use'. This would help the jump fuel problem a lot and still prevent them from being used as jump-capable haulers.
2. No. If the BOBs got reworked to make them less combat oriented like the Force Recon ships, then I would give this a yes.
3. Eh, my jury is still out on this one.
4. No. It's a Covert Jump Bridge, only 'covert' ships (i.e. ones with bonuses to cloaking) should be able to use it.
5. Not a huge issue, I would leave this alone.
6. This has nothing to do with a BOB proper, it's a mechanic for Covert Cyno Fields. If you could activate a Covert Cyno in a cyno-jammed system, you could by default use a Covert Jump Bridge to send ships there and/or jump a BOB there. Should it be allowed? Eh, I give this one a 'maybe'.
7. BOBs are not meant to be front-line combat ships. I would make them more combat oriented (i.e. 3 weapon bonuses instead of 2 and one extra) or able to fit a CovOps cloak, but I would not make them inherently more potent in combat than their T1 counterparts (even though the Widow already is since the Scorpion is a pure ECM platform).

Honestly, I the biggest thing that BOBs need is a more unified role while not operating their Jump Bridge. BOBs are loosely based on Stealth Bombers and, to some extent, Combat Recon Ships in terms of purpose; SBs and CRSs all have the same role, albeit with different implementations along racial lines. BOBs have an ECM platform, a flat-out combat ship (3 weapon bonuses), and two combat ships with non-cloaked movement bonuses; there's no unity of purpose there. I would make all of the BOBs into the same 'type' of platform instead of just T2 versions of their T1 counterparts and adjust their bonuses accordingly before changing any of the cloaking/jump portal mechanics.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:59:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Khan Soriano on 28/05/2008 17:01:43
Originally by: Beef Hardslab
I disagree with the CovOps cloak, not because it wouldn't be omg awesome, but because it'd be too awesome

Originally by: maarud
While I'd like to see them use covert-ops cloaks, I think it would make them over-powered. Can you imagine the dmg a sin would end up doing alone.

Please explain how and in what situations they would be overpowered? Two recons pose a similar threat to any lone NPCer and the difference between two or one guy in local is negligible.

I'd like however to remain cloaked when I scout systems in search for POS to cripple. Ambush is another word for gatecamp and this is done better by tons of other ships.

Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:09:00 - [14]
 

Signed for all, but im sure CCP will have other plans.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:18:00 - [15]
 

Since I kind of like Black Ops as a POS killer type of ship I've added another proposition to my list.

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:21:00 - [16]
 

strap some c4 to it and run it into the master control terminal........oh wait wrong game

Pantaloon McPants
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:37:00 - [17]
 

you forgot standard issue nightvision, black face paint and fancy black uniform with 10000 hidden pockets to stealthly hide your cigs.

Sheila Love
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:46:00 - [18]
 

I like the suggestions made, tho first off would also like to see the stealth bombers sorted out, in particular the use of a cov ops cloak on them too, and bomb launchers to be fixed. otherwise nice ideas there.

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sheila Love
I like the suggestions made, tho first off would also like to see the stealth bombers sorted out, in particular the use of a cov ops cloak on them too, and bomb launchers to be fixed. otherwise nice ideas there.

cov ops cloak on a stealth bomber would be waaaaaaaaay way way way too overpowerd as it can nearly isntapop anything under cruiser sized. and this is comming from a long time sb pilot

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:06:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Beef Hardslab

-Reduce scan res penalty for fitting a cloak. BS size ships don't have the greatest scan res to begin with, gimping it with the pretty much required cloak doesn't make much sense.


This is probably the most important point raised yet. There is no targeting delay, but you still get the scan res penalty

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:23:00 - [21]
 

I want the Redeemer to be a jet black, torp-spewing Khanid battleship with a newt-range bonus.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.29 09:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
I want the Redeemer to be a jet black, torp-spewing Khanid battleship with a newt-range bonus.

When they first announced Black Ops and it was stated that it would be a Geddon my only thought was 'black khanid geddon how cool is that?' We didn't have any Khanid battleships yet so it was natural to assume we would finally get one but then reality kicked in and I started having doubts.... Geddon with missiles?? This is one ship in whole Amarr race that has LASERS painted all over its sexy bodyVery Happy

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.29 10:27:00 - [23]
 

The best place to raise this is in the CSM Assembly Hall, See there are similiar ones in the INDEX BY TOPIC

To make life easier, I've quoted the OP into No parity between Black Ops and Recons (Here's to General Rebalancing) on the Assembly Hall.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.29 10:32:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
More cargospace or dedicated fuel bay

agreed

Quote:
# Possibility to use Covert Ops Cloak

If the stealth bomber who has a ***ping 200dps is too powerful for the cov-ops... the black ops is like pure pwn of powerful.
Denied.

Quote:
# Increased jump range

It has dread range doesn't it? Plenty.

Quote:
More types of ship to jump with

I like the black ops idea. Instead of opening the jumpportal to others. We can instead design a small industrial to carry fuel with so moving back and forth is more plausible even with a fuel bay. The indy would have to be just a big fuel bay though so it isnt moving modules and such around. I've also had larger scale stealth bomber ideas. Like using a cruiser or battlecruiser which brings along citadel torps. Wouldn't be very effective at popping anything other then battleship and larger sig radius while being effective against capitals and such.

Quote:
Longer portal time span and larger activation area

They adjusted this during testing. I'm really not sure why they dont make this larger time span. That way you can jump more and have time to shift fuel into your ship while they jump.

Quote:
# Ability to jump into jump-locked systems

Quite easy to do infact. Covert cyno is not stopped by cyno jammer.

Quote:
Make it at least strong as its T1 counterpart.

damn straight. Who ever thought of a t2 ship which was crappier in some ways. Boost targeting range. Perhaps an explosive armor res boost a bit.

Most importantly is the low slot it's missing. Less turrets and another high slot doesnt do much. While extra medium and 1 less rig slot balance eachother out. Especially considering a CCC isn't built in.

Quote:
# Remove or reduce the reactivation delay on cloaks

I'm split on this one. It's understandable but then not really. The 125% cloaking speed bonus is big.

Quote:
Remove or reduce scan resolution penalty

From what I can see the scan resolution is better then the t1 variant.

Quote:
Make them a long range ship so they could 'siege' POS infrastructure

mixed on that also. Really it can be done already as they can fit the large weapons. It just isn't their role exactly.

Khan Soriano
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:21:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
The best place to raise this is in the CSM Assembly Hall, See there are similiar ones in the INDEX BY TOPIC

To make life easier, I've quoted the OP into No parity between Black Ops and Recons (Here's to General Rebalancing) on the Assembly Hall.

Thanks for the information. I see that CSM is already busy putting out fires across EVEWink

Julio Torres
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:28:00 - [26]
 

1) Cov Ops Cloak, NO! Would make this ship so over powered.

2) Ability Rig to use Covert Ops Jump bridge.
All non cloaker-ships that wants to use the bridge must sacrifice a rig slot.

Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.05.29 13:12:00 - [27]
 

Make them the next step up after recons... Recon bonus hell yeah ! Razz


Also covert ops cloak wouldnt overpower them at all .. at least in their current state. It would give the ship more tactical advantages but it still wouldnt be a good idea to use one solo in 0.0 space - if that's what people are afraid off.

Serously give a good reason why a covert cloak would be overpowered instead of repeating the same stuff over and over again cause in their current state it's way more practical using t1 bs with a cloaking device for some sneaky guerilla action.

There needs to be something that makes you want to train for Blackops. At the moment it's nothing less than a waste of time.

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:08:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Jacque Custeau on 29/05/2008 14:10:27
Originally by: Jason Edwards

Quote:
# Increased jump range

It has dread range doesn't it? Plenty.



This is why comments on this thread should be limited to people who actually own and tried to use a black ops battleship. Same range as a dread? What are you on?

I don't have EvE loaded now but I am certain that Black ops has the shortest range of all jump capable ships and that the base range is 2 light years. So with JDC trained to level 5 you get 4.5 light years. Compare that to a base jump range of 5 lightyears on a dread. So a black ops pilot with JDC 5 cannot jump as far as a dread pilot with no JDC skill trained.

It would also be very helpful if the CSM people stop trying to hijack the topic.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2008.05.29 14:14:00 - [29]
 

How about adding a module or rig that allows any non-capital to use the jump bridge? With that capability

Perhaps a high slot that requires some moderately time consuming skills and reduces your cargo space by 50%.

That would make it a nice tool for moving a support fleet around but you'd only be able to move people with the skills and would either need to sacrifice some combat capability or refit w/ a carrier.


If that would be too much, then a low skill and cost T2 shuttle that can use the jump portal would be cool, as would be allowing T2 industrials to use it.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.29 17:01:00 - [30]
 

Maybe there should be two Black Ops, just as there are two Covert Ops and two Recons. Maybe give one of them the jump portal generator and the covert ops cloak, but very few weapon mounts... it can be a kind of command/logistics ship for recons. Give the other one weapons and the sexiness, but remove the jump portal and don't let it warp cloaked.


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