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blankseplocked [Issue] 1400mm Artillery
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Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2008.06.03 20:38:00 - [31]

Edited by: Fallorn on 03/06/2008 20:38:54
Really work on this stuff

Octavio Santillian
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.06.03 22:57:00 - [32]

I support this topic: Artillery is a weapon system designed for a long since bygone era. Preferably I would like to Artillery regain its stature as an alpha strike weapons system—perhaps through a combination of weapon rebalance and a rethink of certain ship specialization bonuses. Doing so will preserve some diversity in weapon platforms. Failing that end, Matari pilots demand whatever changes are necessary to transform Artillery into a viable and competitive long range weapons system.

The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:20:00 - [33]

Edited by: Gragnor on 03/06/2008 23:22:48
Minmatar needs a comprehensive exmaination as they have ruined the battleships.

The ONLY reason to fly a Minmatar battleship was alpha strike. They are fragile and their speed advantage over a sniperthron is negligible. Rigs and doomsday proof cruiser fits have meant that Alphastrike is no longer the arbiter of fights but dps.

The end result of all this was the half baked abortion; the Maelstrom. An active tanking FLEET battleship with half a gun's improvement in damage and is a whale to get out of a fight. What a stroke of game designing genius that was.

My point. Minmatar 1400's need to be restored to their place of prominence quickly or the entire line of Minnie BS needs a drastic overhaul. The problem is that there is no chance of the this happening as the clueless game designers have no interest in doing this. They want close range fights where lag is maximised, minnie ships are useless and have only ONE possible way of surviving; nanoships.

By all means ask; but please do not expect anything from CCP. They know best.............

The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:22:00 - [34]

Edited by: Gragnor on 03/06/2008 23:22:14
oops double post.

arghy steelwill
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:32:00 - [35]

I believe the guns are fine its just the ships that need to be looked at, the tempest is so damn annoying ATM with the TC nerf. I have gal/ama/min bs4 with all gunnery support skills to level 5, when a T1 gun geddon does better in fleet fights then my T2 tempest then theres something wrong. The tempest already needed all of its mid slots just to perform on par with other T2 snipers(2xSBII/1xMWD/2xTCII) along with 4 of its 6 low slots(RCUII/3xGSII) with the other 2 usually ending up being DCII/1600 plate. Then we got the TC/SB nerf now the already horrible tracking gets worse while its still the only sniper with the lowest targetting range.

The guns were never changed the ships were- the ships were balanced around the guns change the ships or change the guns.

Kelbesque Crystalis
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:45:00 - [36]

Something need to be done to either the ships or the guns. Alpha is now worthless, making artillery the worst long range weapon system.

Min Qa

Posted - 2008.06.04 00:05:00 - [37]


Irista Ari'star
Posted - 2008.06.04 02:30:00 - [38]

Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2008.06.04 05:54:00 - [39]


Code Chills
Posted - 2008.06.04 09:35:00 - [40]

Well, Alpha-Strike-Kills were something too common. Therefore they have been removed. Now, when will the Weapon specialized in exactly that removed aspect be "looked at".

+15% DPS
+100% Clipsize

Posted - 2008.06.05 21:11:00 - [41]

Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Something need to be done to either the ships or the guns. Alpha is now worthless, making artillery the worst long range weapon system.

Especially in PvE where Minmatar ships, relying on either arti or mixed systems, are dependent on something that works about as well as a Rail. Combining the "Big Alpha - Low DPS" approach of arti with reloading all the time ist just plain BAD.

So yeah, I'm absolutely pro artillery Rework. Also the sound and graphics of sub-capital arti could use some love.

Bakatu Kat
Kat Family

Posted - 2008.06.06 13:13:00 - [42]

i'll give it a +. redesign is needed, but i like the idea of burst weapon more. you shoot a lot, then its cooldown and reaload, and again shooting ... for me its a nice "alpha strike". stays in line with alpha strike of old times

Nariana Verex
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.06.06 14:34:00 - [43]

Originally by: Bakatu Kat
i'll give it a +. redesign is needed, but i like the idea of burst weapon more. you shoot a lot, then its cooldown and reaload, and again shooting ... for me its a nice "alpha strike". stays in line with alpha strike of old times

Hmm. You know, this sounds cool. I don't fly Minmatar ships, but I have used Artillery back when it was the only good weapon system on my ancient Prophecy. The idea of shooting four or five powerful shots, then a long reload is kind of appealing. However, if we did this and made their reload speed 15, or even 20 seconds one could argue that an advantage to Projectile weapons [the ability to change ammo types to suit your needs] would be negated.

Artillery already received a damage boost when the HP of all ships was increased, but I wonder if 10% or so more range could help out.

I don't want Artillery being able to alpha-strike something into oblivion, but I do support the idea of it being very wince inducing. A look into it would be worth it.

Sworn Absent
Posted - 2008.06.06 16:41:00 - [44]

Either the guns or the ships, but right now minmatar snipers are outclassed in almost every way and it sucks

Savesti Kyrsst
Sebiestor Tribe

Posted - 2008.06.06 19:07:00 - [45]

If they got rid of one of the disadvantages it would be a lot more balanced. I support your proposed change over that as it keeps the individuality of the different weapon systems.

Red Raider
Caldari Provisions

Posted - 2008.06.06 19:23:00 - [46]

Right on.

North Star Networks
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.06.07 13:49:00 - [47]


Posted - 2008.06.10 21:58:00 - [48]

Posted - 2008.06.10 22:51:00 - [49]

I'm not holding my breath for CCP to look into the Math here (and this thread is desperately short on facts and figures).

I've trained up Gallente BS so I can lay down the hurt with rails at the cost of using a midslot for cap boosting (midslot hurts my tank .. NOT) if I ever need to fire for more than 30seconds.

Also, rails have far better range than artys, artys are pathetic. Don't get upset and bent out of shape, just train something else until the penny drops and they are worth going back to.

The MapMaker
Posted - 2008.06.11 00:36:00 - [50]

the tempest is the weakest fleet sniper and the alpha factor of artillery is now little more than an underpowered gimmick

i agree with da op but perhaps the topic could be better presented, with graphs comparing the dps of each of the main fleet sniper BS dealt to a BS target against range, and mathematical comparison between weapon types.

Ultimately the issue may be resolved by adjustments to the Tempest which, much like the Eagle, was hit hard by the script changes and went from a decent sniper to the worst racial choice.

COAD Alts United

Posted - 2008.06.11 02:23:00 - [51]

Arties do suck.

The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.11 03:02:00 - [52]

One significant problem with artillery is how the racial characteristics work poorly with each other. Specifically how the alpha strike philosophy does not work well with the Minmatar characteristic of fighting in falloff. Because artillery has "high" alpha, and a correspondingly low ROF, each shot fired is individually more important than those of other long range weapon systems. 1400s on a sniper BS have a roughly 12 second ROF, whereas 425 rails have a roughly 5 second ROF, and Tachyons a 7 second ROF. Because beam lasers and rails typically work within optimal, as compared to artillery, more shots hit, with better quality of hits. Combined with the characteristically low DPS of artillery, missed shots from fighting in falloff significantly reduce the effectiveness of Minmatar snipers compared with other races.

tl;dr: High alpha, low ROF and fighting in falloff is a very bad combination.

Solar Revenue Service
Posted - 2008.06.11 15:01:00 - [53]

Edited by: RedeyeAce on 11/06/2008 15:01:02
Minnie weps in general need a rework
/me heads off to find the other minnie wep posts and the shield / armor swap phoon post Laughing

SoleDeo Gloria
Mission Runners Incorporated

Posted - 2008.06.11 15:21:00 - [54]


Sebiestor Tribe

Posted - 2008.06.11 15:52:00 - [55]

Mori Felding
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.11 16:09:00 - [56]

The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.12 06:27:00 - [57]

Even if they did nothing but boost the base optimal by 10km, I'd be far happier.

Posted - 2008.06.12 07:10:00 - [58]

Edited by: hammyhamm on 12/06/2008 07:11:38
Originally by: Bloodyranger
Keep in mind that we minmatar have not focused as much on technology including tracking and stuff like that, besides artilleries are just what they are ment to be, massive alpha and low DPS. If you want DPS and Tracking the minmatar Autocannons have the fastest and very nice DPS as well. Along with the ability to chose amongst all damage types

/Not signed

A quick glance reveals that Minmatar Encryption Methods is required to invent T2 Tracking computers and Tracking enhancers, so I'd say they are fairly focused on tracking (not to mention that Autocannons have pretty good tracking).

My main issue is that the 1400mm Artillery uses so much powergrid in comparison to the fitting grid of all minmatar battleships, meaning that you are almost always better fitting 1200mm instead.

All the use of Battleship-size minmatar weapons are exactly what I expect from them: High alpha, low DPS. If anything, I'd have to say that im only in favour of a possible grid reduction on artillery fitting, if any change at all.

Merch Industrial
Posted - 2008.06.12 14:20:00 - [59]

Edited by: Taedron on 12/06/2008 14:21:29
Artillery needs a boost at all sizes, just 1400mm is the most visible because it has the largest gap when compared to rails and beams. Especially now that there are ranged bonused ships that use those weapons. Additionally, the issue isn't entirely with the guns themselves (though they do need 75% better tracking and 10% more range and maybe a bit more damage). The main comparison people do with 1400mm arty is the sniper battleships and the tempest is just terrible compared to a rokh or apoc, and is even bad when compared to a mega or abaddon. The tempest is the only one that can't DD tank and hit to 150km. It relies on midslot tracking/opt modules where as the others rely on lowslot mods which are far superior. Also, they use too much grid, or alternately the BSs doesn't have enough grid. Just freeing up the low slot that we currently need for an RCU2 would help slightly.

Fix all arty and fix Minmatar battleships.

Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:15:00 - [60]

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