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Manic Smile
The Scope
Posted - 2008.05.28 01:10:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Manic Smile on 28/05/2008 01:28:36
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Manic Smile
There are no new missions in highsec.
There are no new modules.
There are no new highsec scanning sites.
There are no new trade mechanics.
There are no new asteroids or mining gear.
There are no new production based content.
There are no new invention mechanics.

When y'all ask for "new" PVE content it sounds like what you really want is old PVE content. The expansion includes wild new types of missions with a new risk/reward calculation. The expansion enables corp/gang PVE by correcting L5 mission rewards and enabling 10-way reward splits. The expansion adds new LP stores with new faction ships, and may very well include new modules and implants. It creates a lot of fascinating new opportunities for producers and traders that go way beyond the new Amarr frigate and the covops invention changes. What you seem to really want is nothing to change, and that's why you're doomed to disappointment.



Again I'm talking for someone else here so I can't say for sure but it seems like more along the lines of the old is wanted, not to limit the new. Pottsey never said don't do what they are doing but include some more of the traditional content listed as well.


Actually, let me edit that and say that personally all this new form of PvE content sucks. No one does lvl 5s for the PvP and no one is going to go PvE things that result in a loss of isk on avg so who does lvl 5 missions? The rewards do not benefit the risk at all. I imagine the FW content will be much the same as far as those looking for a PvE experience. If people are looking to PvP then it really doesn't matter if they lose isk so it might be enjoyable as a pvp lite, but then why are these people even going to want to mess with scripted pve, almost grindy content, when they are trying to get into pvp encounters. In order to make carebears want to pvp you have to remove the risk and then you wouldn't have Eve, you'd have that often hyped hello kitty online.

So no one will be happy after the first month or so and there's no new 0.0 content or traditional PvE content...so how is FW good?

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.05.28 01:29:00 - [152]
 

I guess that CCP cares more about the PvP side of the game than the PvE side. Which is logical since CCP thinks of EVE as a PvP game and all. I find it hilarious that you are telling CCP what EVE is and what they should do with it. lol @ you, lol.

Please quit Pottsey, you are probably the worst, annoying, whiny carebear of them all (wait no I can think of a few as whiny, see CSM forum)

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.28 02:48:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Manic Smile
No one does lvl 5s for the PvP and no one is going to go PvE things that result in a loss of isk on avg so who does lvl 5 missions? The rewards do not benefit the risk at all.

They're changing the rewards, in the new expansion, to make them worth doing. They're also improving the ability to split mission rewards with a gang. Together these improvements are presumably aimed at making small-gang level-5 PVE practical in ISK/hour terms. I repeat they are changing L5 mission rewards. This is a change coming with the expansion which is PVE any way you slice it.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 03:43:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
I guess that CCP cares more about the PvP side of the game than the PvE side. Which is logical since CCP thinks of EVE as a PvP game and all. I find it hilarious that you are telling CCP what EVE is and what they should do with it. lol @ you, lol.

Please quit Pottsey, you are probably the worst, annoying, whiny carebear of them all (wait no I can think of a few as whiny, see CSM forum)


If they cared about the PVP side they might actually bother to make this expansion actually useful for all the pvp'ers. It isn't.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.28 06:55:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Venkul Mul
New capability to split rewards between up to 10 people, enabling fleets to do PVE together.

ok (when it willl work)

New, enhanced rewards that make L5 missions worth doing.

really? little problem, it will reset the mission autobalancing system, so lowering the reward till they have been run enough times (note so far the autobalancing has not make them worthwile after several months, guess what will happen now Laughing).

Not sure what all that means. Nevertheless, the point is that CCP is giving us level 5 missions with this expansion. They may already be in the game, but nobody runs them because the rewards aren't in line with the time and number of people needed. The new expansion enables larger fleets to run missions together and increases the payouts, with the goal of making L5 missions practical. That's a major boost to PVE.



So what? It's new PVE content. What did you want, old PVE content?


New mission or old mission when they are changed reset to lowest pay possible. Then after the mission has been run a large number of times the pay start increasing to match the actual rate of success. From what I gather only recently the reward of level 5 missions has started to rise a bit for the action of the autobalancing system (as it has gathered enough data to start modifing the payout).

Changing the payout without setting it so that it start at a high level mean that it will actually lower again, to rise after 1 year of mission running (a net effect of the low number of level 5 missions run).

Then the split by 10 - run mission with 10 people system is a god way to keep pay lower.

The autobalancing system don't consider that running a mission with 10 people is faster than with 5 or 2, so it will use all the missions results to balance the reward.

Result successful mission will result done fast (10 man gang) and the reward will not increase.

So reward will continue not to be on line with time and people needed.


Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
Originally by: Venkul Mul
New NPC corps offering new kinds of missions with new kinds of rewards.

Unless there are new NPC coprs outside militia, it is a mixed PvP/PvE thing with a very strong PvP bent



Hoping you are honest and not trolling:

New corps = semi true, as the militias are more alliances than corps

New kind of missions = ok, even if I repeat, it is more PvP than PvE

New kind of reward = no, unless you consider the ranks a reward


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 07:54:00 - [156]
 

“I guess that CCP cares more about the PvP side of the game than the PvE side. Which is logical since CCP thinks of EVE as a PvP game and all. I find it hilarious that you are telling CCP what EVE is and what they should do with it. lol @ you, lol.”
Well if you a understood and read my post you will noticed that CCP haven’t and are not adding any real amounts of 0.0 PvP content for a year as well as no PvE. That to me shows CCP does not care about the real PvP that most people do in the game. Anyone with half a brain knows when you start ignoring new content for the two major parts of a game in this case PvE 0.5+ and PvP 0.0 you’re in risk of losing a lot of players.

Find it as hilarious as you want but my concerns are true. They are focusing on one part of the gane 0.4. Which is bad, focusing on 0.4 with a small amount of 0.5 and 0.0 content is what they should have done.




“Please quit Pottsey, you are probably the worst, annoying, whiny carebear of them all (wait no I can think of a few as whiny, see CSM forum)”
The PvPers are being more whiny then me. At least I am pointing out a valid concern there is no 0.0 PvP or 0.5+ PvE content being added for 1 year.

Xioden Acap
Navy of Xoc
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.05.28 08:07:00 - [157]
 

I'm still wondering where most of the PVE content promised in trinity went to.

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.28 10:01:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“EVE isnt a PVE game to start with.
Think about it, PVE in this game is the same set of missions we have all done a million times.”

Yes it is PvE that’s why it has stuff like Cosmos.
PvE is not just a set of missions that you have done a missions times.





Wrong again. PVP makes up almost everything in this game.

All pve is in place to support pvp. Missions are there to earn isk so that you can spend it on pvp. Sure some dont but most do. Mining tends to be pve, but once you get your ore you then either sell it on the market (market pvp) or build things which you then sell (market pvp again)

The tiny amount of pve in this game shows that pve is not a primary focus of the devs and never has been. Hell just look at a map of eve. 2/3 of the galaxy consists of space where you are open to pvp without concord getting involved.

You might not like it but you are playing a PVP game, dont expect it to change.

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:11:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Xioden Acap
I'm still wondering where most of the PVE content promised in trinity went to.


There IS a black hole in the middle of the Eve galaxy Rolling Eyes

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:43:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Originally by: Xioden Acap
I'm still wondering where most of the PVE content promised in trinity went to.


There IS a black hole in the middle of the Eve galaxy Rolling Eyes


It got stuck in the Jita 4-4 station.

I have to wonder how much the thinning out of content in this expansion has to do with CCP diverting resources from EVE to the other MMO they are developing... MMO development is expensive and long, and EVE is CCP's major source of income, meaning that our subs are funding more than EVE's development, we are funding the other game too.

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:52:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

As for the person talking about my quoting style I have been doing this for over 15years not going to stop now.



So for 15 years you've been unable to adapt and use quote button functionality that got introduced sometimes back in the late 90's?

way to go with that.

not only that, there is new PvE content in the expansion, its just all based around a pvp zone. (go here, kill that, try not get ganked).

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 13:17:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 28/05/2008 13:30:29
“not only that, there is new PvE content in the expansion, its just all based around a pvp zone. (go here, kill that, try not get ganked).”
If it’s based around PvP then it’s not PvE. The whole idea is to have two sides of players fighting for victory points. That’s PvP. That why there is a scoreboard between the players.



“So for 15 years you've been unable to adapt and use quote button functionality that got introduced sometimes back in the late 90's?”
You do realise your having a go at me for quoting text in the correct way according to the English language. Quoting with the “ symbol like “the quick brown fox” is the correct way to quote.
Anyway quoting like this has become part of my writing style on forums and I find it easier to read and so do some others. For the most part the only people who suddenly don’t like it are the ones who where proven wrong or just want to have a go at me as they don’t like my post.





“Wrong again. PVP makes up almost everything in this game.”
No its not and I mentioned things that have zero PvP and little to no isk. PvE is not just missions like you keep saying. I dont class the market or mineing as PvP. Many definitions of PvP involve players shooting players. Not Players trying to out do Players on the market.




“All pve is in place to support pvp. Missions are there to earn isk so that you can spend it on pvp.”
No its not, how is doing archaeology to dig up info on old race’s supporting PvP? PvE is far more then just agent in star base's giveing missions.
EDIT: Anyway it’s all PvP is there to support PvE. You lot have to go around blowing ships up so the builders and miners have something to do. LaughingWinkVery Happy

Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
Posted - 2008.05.28 13:49:00 - [163]
 

OP fails.

Care to mention just one expansion that hasn't included new missions?

You have you checked the test server for new missions? Right?

I guess some people just enjoy making pointless threads.

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.28 14:43:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 28/05/2008 13:30:29
“not only that, there is new PvE content in the expansion, its just all based around a pvp zone. (go here, kill that, try not get ganked).”
If it’s based around PvP then it’s not PvE. The whole idea is to have two sides of players fighting for victory points. That’s PvP. That why there is a scoreboard between the players.



“So for 15 years you've been unable to adapt and use quote button functionality that got introduced sometimes back in the late 90's?”
You do realise your having a go at me for quoting text in the correct way according to the English language. Quoting with the “ symbol like “the quick brown fox” is the correct way to quote.
Anyway quoting like this has become part of my writing style on forums and I find it easier to read and so do some others. For the most part the only people who suddenly don’t like it are the ones who where proven wrong or just want to have a go at me as they don’t like my post.





“Wrong again. PVP makes up almost everything in this game.”
No its not and I mentioned things that have zero PvP and little to no isk. PvE is not just missions like you keep saying. I dont class the market or mineing as PvP. Many definitions of PvP involve players shooting players. Not Players trying to out do Players on the market.




“All pve is in place to support pvp. Missions are there to earn isk so that you can spend it on pvp.”
No its not, how is doing archaeology to dig up info on old race’s supporting PvP? PvE is far more then just agent in star base's giveing missions.
EDIT: Anyway it’s all PvP is there to support PvE. You lot have to go around blowing ships up so the builders and miners have something to do. LaughingWinkVery Happy




PVP is not always combat. Players trying to beat other players in the market is still PVP dispite the fact that they are not shooting at eachother. Infact market PVP is alot harder than most combat situations.


From the sounds of things you never leave high sec space for fear of a pvp encounter. You are therefore not exploring 2/3 of the map and most of what eve is all about. The fantastic thing about this game is the very fact that devs dont have to constantly add in content to keep us happy like every other MMO. In EVE the players themselves make their own content and its alot better and longer lasting than pre set missions.

Again PVE is not the main focus of this game. Get out of your carebear mentality and involved with the dreaded pvp side of the game and you wont need more PVE to be added since you will have all the content you need.




Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 14:47:00 - [165]
 

“OP fails.
Care to mention just one expansion that hasn't included new missions?”

As I said befor PvE is more then just missions. If you understood my post you would see I have not failed.
Yes I did the new missions, guess what they sent me 15jumps into enemy space where I met lots red war targets which where players. I count that as PvP. That’s only the test server as well with a low population of pilots.
There is pretty much nothing PvE wise in this expansion for 0.5+ space and nothing for alliance/0.0 PvP apart from 4 navy ships and 1 frig. I hardly count the PvE content in low sec space as PvE as its all based around PvP.

The expansion focus on one area of gameplay low sec space. There should be at least a little content for high sec and deep 0.0 space. Its not the focusing on low sec space I dont like, its the focusing on low sec space exclusively with next to nothing for 0.0 or 0.5+

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 14:52:00 - [166]
 

“From the sounds of things you never leave high sec space for fear of a pvp encounter.”
As I explained before I have been all over living in Catch during the first Great War, joining a large PvP alliance and a small PvP corp.




“Again PVE is not the main focus of this game. Get out of your carebear mentality and involved with the dreaded pvp side of the game and you wont need more PVE to be added since you will have all the content you need.”
I tried the PvP side of the game and found it very boring. The PvE side was far more interesting for me as it has tons of stuff not found in PvP that I like. CCP are doing the same to PvP as they are to PvE. They have added next nothing to 0.0 PvP.
Are the 0.0 PvP people really not bothered about no content for 1 year? How do the alliance’s feel about no content for them?

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:11:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 28/05/2008 13:30:29
“not only that, there is new PvE content in the expansion, its just all based around a pvp zone. (go here, kill that, try not get ganked).”
If it’s based around PvP then it’s not PvE. The whole idea is to have two sides of players fighting for victory points. That’s PvP. That why there is a scoreboard between the players.

“Wrong again. PVP makes up almost everything in this game.”
No its not and I mentioned things that have zero PvP and little to no isk. PvE is not just missions like you keep saying. I dont class the market or mineing as PvP. Many definitions of PvP involve players shooting players. Not Players trying to out do Players on the market.


“All pve is in place to support pvp. Missions are there to earn isk so that you can spend it on pvp.”
No its not, how is doing archaeology to dig up info on old race’s supporting PvP? PvE is far more then just agent in star base's giveing missions.
EDIT: Anyway it’s all PvP is there to support PvE. You lot have to go around blowing ships up so the builders and miners have something to do. LaughingWinkVery Happy


Mining and building are NOT pve! You keep saying "I class that as PVP" and "I dont class that as PVE". Have you tried actually using the same defintions as the developers of the game and the rest of the community, rather than just making up your own to try and justify your factitious argument?

PVP isnt "PSP". Its not just Players Shooting Players. Its players VERSUS players. Versus means competing with, opposed to, or against. Competition on the market, in industry, mining, all of those are clearly categorised as being players VERSUS players.
Even COSMOS, which I have only done some of, but I beleive you often have to go to beaconed complexes and other players there can try to beat you to the arch/hacking goal and gain the rewards? That is (albeit limited) PVP.

The only true PVE form in terms of lack of PVP content is high-sec mission running, which is why it is worthless.

However, personally I think defining "PVE" as "lack of PVP" is very dubious, because low-sec mission running, belt ratting, exploring and 0.0 COSMOS are all mainly "versus environment" activities in a PVP-combat-capable area. By your pithy definition this is PVP, yet all the things that are in highsec, are some how not, despite them involving competition.

What you are doing however, by trying to recruit industrialists and non-combat characters to your banner, is perverting the issue and trying to ask for more of the same, more tedious content that has no competitive element. You call anything in the new expansion that occurs in non-protected space "PVP", when the aim is some sort of hybrid game form that requires a bit of both. I dont know if that idea will work, but I know your idae that they are adding no "PVE" content is foolhardy.

FW, l5 improvements are ALL pve content. Please stop your baseless ranting and at least accept that you are not asking for PVE content, but you are asking for RISK FREE content. Its then up to you to decide if there should be risk free content (at least beyond the msot basic newbie levels) in EVE. Personally I beleive not.

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:22:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
“From the sounds of things you never leave high sec space for fear of a pvp encounter.”
As I explained before I have been all over living in Catch during the first Great War, joining a large PvP alliance and a small PvP corp.




“Again PVE is not the main focus of this game. Get out of your carebear mentality and involved with the dreaded pvp side of the game and you wont need more PVE to be added since you will have all the content you need.”
I tried the PvP side of the game and found it very boring. The PvE side was far more interesting for me as it has tons of stuff not found in PvP that I like. CCP are doing the same to PvP as they are to PvE. They have added next nothing to 0.0 PvP.
Are the 0.0 PvP people really not bothered about no content for 1 year? How do the alliance’s feel about no content for them?



We have all the content we need.

Building super alliences, forging empires, making war, building POS networks and ripping them down. The only thing people in 0.0 want are lag free battles.
All of it made by the players themselves.

You kind of remind me of the people who join pvp servers on other MMO's who then complain that they cant go and solo the pve content.

Content is being added in this next expantion, whos falt is it that you dont take advantage of it?

Big Al
The Aftermath
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:41:00 - [169]
 

Neglecting PVE is a pretty stupid thing to do (much like having a PVE system in a PVP game to begin with), most people that play this game now are fairly risk adverse. This is going to really show when faction warfare with it's small gang objectives fails miserably. People will complain all day about blobs, but they won't show up to fight small gang vs small gang when it's on the line.

If you feel like ragequitting though, contract your stuff to good old Big Al and I'll take good care of it for you.

Dokaran Jitsune
Posted - 2008.05.28 15:58:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Dokaran Jitsune on 28/05/2008 16:07:30
Originally by: Pottsey
“I think that's justified. So now this release has as its focus FW; give CCP a break, huh? Maybe the next release will focus largely on new PVE content to balance the fact that FW is largely PVP focused.”
They don’t deserve a break, it’s bad planning. The next expansion shouldn’t focus on PvE. If the next expansion focus on PvE that means the 0.0 PvP players get no content for 1 year, 6 months assuming the expansion after the PvE one is for PvP 0.0 space.
Expansions should be a mix for everyone. When any expansion focus on one play style all the other play style end up with a year or longer of almost no content. 1 year of no or little content is unacceptable for a monthly subscription game.

Junks of content every 1 year is bad practise. Junks throughout the year is much better even if it ends up smaller junks. CCP used to get the balance right, all older expansions had something for everyone. If they keep going down this path I can see them losing a lot of players.



Have you ever managed a project with numbers of people involved before? Have you ever planned a project? Have you even considered what kind of an undertaking it must be to plan and manage a game release, and to deal with disconsolate folks like yourself who are never happy no matter what you do? Not to mention dealing with internal design squabbles and the like, all the while keeping things on track?

When other MMOs add new major releases, they tend to pick a new idea/theme/zone and make that the focus of the release (and they generally charge money for them, too). Does that necessarily cater to every player, every time?? No.

I concur that there seems to be a lack of information (and, even, I'll admit, of new content lately, PVE or otherwise), but seriously, man -- ease off. It's a game. And CCP does a way better job than most of managing their product.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:28:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 28/05/2008 16:43:47
“Mining and building are NOT pve! You keep saying "I class that as PVP" and "I dont class that as PVE". Have you tried actually using the same defintions as the developers of the game and the rest of the community, rather than just making up your own to try and justify your factitious argument?”
As far as I am aware the devs never gave there definitions of PvP. I am not making up my own definitions PvP you lot are. PvP refers to combat and has done for along time. http://webopedia.com/TERM/P/PVP.html
PvP means “PvP is a type of combat in MMORPGs, MUDs and other computer role-playing games (CRPGs), pitting one player's 'skill' against another's.”

Mining and market are not combat so are not PvP. Other names used are player killing or Pking.

PvP started as a switch in online games when player fight other players. The PvP areas have players fighting; the none PvP areas have no fighting but still market and mining. Every other online game has PvP as combat between players. PvP is short for players fighting other players.



“PVP isnt "PSP". Its not just Players Shooting Players. Its players VERSUS players.”
Ok it doesn’t have to be shooting but PvP is combat between people.
http://www.babylon.com/definition/player_versus_player/English
http://webopedia.com/TERM/P/PVP.html
From muds to MMORPG’s PvP has always referred to Player V Player in combat. Why Is Eve suddenly different with a different meaning?

EDIT:"On a normal server, PvP is optional and regulated: characters cannot be attacked by other characters except by participating in designated 'battleground' matches, unless they have "flagged" for PvP through a command, attacked a flagged enemy, entered an enemy city or assisted a flagged character. On a PvP server, characters adventuring in areas outside of the initial starting areas (these areas are known as contested zones) are automatically flagged and players of the opposite faction in these regions, which make up the bulk of the game-world, may attack one another without restriction."

In Eve its wars flag you for PvP against those targets or areas like 0.0 are PvP free for all. The history of PvP is very much a combat word. Some people use it wrongly to mean none combat in games.

"PvP combat in CRPGs has its roots in various MUDs like Gemstone III. However, while the ability to kill another player existed in many MUDs, it was usually frowned upon because of general strict adherences and heavy influences from role-playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. The term PvP originated in text based MUDs played on bulletin board systems like MajorMUD and Usurper. These games had open worlds where any player could attack any other player as long as they were not at a safe spot in town like the Bank. Player versus player was coined sometime in the late 1980s to refer to the combat between players that resulted in the loser being penalized in some way."





“When other MMOs add new major releases, they tend to pick a new idea/theme/zone and make that the focus of the release (and they generally charge money for them, too). Does that necessarily cater to every player, every time?? No.”
Most others pick a theme but they also add content outside that theme/new area. Most others give expansions for MMO the size of EA for free. Eve is nothing special because its expansion is free, its common practise. Look at D&D online it’s had 7 or 8 expansions in 2 years all free and all as large or larger then EA. The other MMO I play is Hellgate and it gets content like EA well more then EA every 4ish months. As MMO's go Eve is doing pretty poor on the new content front.

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.28 16:30:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Sunwillow Auryn on 28/05/2008 16:30:06
One thing I've seen fairly often in expansions is that the "big massive thing" that the developers think is going to revolutionise the game, actually doesn't. The trouble is they are too close to the project to be able to see the issues.

The cynic in me (quite a vocal one, I might add), is telling me that:

1) players who are mostly high sec will not do FW content, not necessarily because it is perceived as PvP, but because to get to the 'mission' locations you have to travel through numerous low sec systems. Whether it is true or not, these players will see that as tantamount to being ganked by a gang of experienced nil sec pirates, and just will not bother.

2) based on what I have seen, players who are mostly low sec feed off high sec players who dare to put a toe into the systems. They have no incentive to change this behaviour, and good incentive to continue because their food supply is being increased.

3) players who are mostly nil sec either will not bother with this because there can't be much satisfaction in killing a T1 fitted Merlin, or simply because they can't take part due to corp/alliance restrictions.

At best, FW will appeal to the nil sec folks who will do this on alts, but having read this entire thread (before and after it was cleaned by CCP) it seems to me that those who do PvP won't bother because it isn't proper PvP. After their T1 fits get ganked a few times by the low sec pirates and some of the nil sec bottom feeders who wander along for easy meat, I think they will lose interest as well and head back to their mains.

From what I can see, and has been mentioned a few times so far, EA seems to be a rather poorly thought out expansion. To achieve it's stated aim of getting high sec players an introduction into PvP, CCP should have located the contested areas in 0.5 sec. Heck, I'm one of the biggest carebears there is, and if I could get to these places without gank possibility, I would give it a try myself.

As it is, I'll be asking my current agents for more work ;)

(edit - because I can't spell)

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:16:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 28/05/2008 17:18:25
Edited by: baltec1 on 28/05/2008 17:16:50
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 28/05/2008 16:43:47
“Mining and building are NOT pve! You keep saying "I class that as PVP" and "I dont class that as PVE". Have you tried actually using the same defintions as the developers of the game and the rest of the community, rather than just making up your own to try and justify your factitious argument?”
As far as I am aware the devs never gave there definitions of PvP. I am not making up my own definitions PvP you lot are. PvP refers to combat and has done for along time. http://webopedia.com/TERM/P/PVP.html
PvP means “PvP is a type of combat in MMORPGs, MUDs and other computer role-playing games (CRPGs), pitting one player's 'skill' against another's.”

Mining and market are not combat so are not PvP. Other names used are player killing or Pking.

PvP started as a switch in online games when player fight other players. The PvP areas have players fighting; the none PvP areas have no fighting but still market and mining. Every other online game has PvP as combat between players. PvP is short for players fighting other players.



“PVP isnt "PSP". Its not just Players Shooting Players. Its players VERSUS players.”
Ok it doesn’t have to be shooting but PvP is combat between people.
http://www.babylon.com/definition/player_versus_player/English
http://webopedia.com/TERM/P/PVP.html
From muds to MMORPG’s PvP has always referred to Player V Player in combat. Why Is Eve suddenly different with a different meaning?

EDIT:"On a normal server, PvP is optional and regulated: characters cannot be attacked by other characters except by participating in designated 'battleground' matches, unless they have "flagged" for PvP through a command, attacked a flagged enemy, entered an enemy city or assisted a flagged character. On a PvP server, characters adventuring in areas outside of the initial starting areas (these areas are known as contested zones) are automatically flagged and players of the opposite faction in these regions, which make up the bulk of the game-world, may attack one another without restriction."

In Eve its wars flag you for PvP against those targets or areas like 0.0 are PvP free for all. The history of PvP is very much a combat word. Some people use it wrongly to mean none combat in games.

"PvP combat in CRPGs has its roots in various MUDs like Gemstone III. However, while the ability to kill another player existed in many MUDs, it was usually frowned upon because of general strict adherences and heavy influences from role-playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. The term PvP originated in text based MUDs played on bulletin board systems like MajorMUD and Usurper. These games had open worlds where any player could attack any other player as long as they were not at a safe spot in town like the Bank. Player versus player was coined sometime in the late 1980s to refer to the combat between players that resulted in the loser being penalized in some way."
Quote:



I dont care what some random website says, if a player is in competition with another player then it is PVP. Be it the Jita price wars or taking out a titan. All of it is you against another player not the eviroment.

Back on galaxies I used to be one of the largest steel suppliers on my server, I was always having to stay one step ahead of the rest of the competion. That was my pvp and it was fun. Just because I didnt shoot people didnt change the fact that I was going head to head with other players.


Xeronn
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:28:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Xeronn on 28/05/2008 17:28:33
Originally by: Pottsey
“Since it's not a PVE game, don't expect overwhelming content designed for it.”
Why not? It’s been getting PvE content for PvE players for 4 years. Why stop now? If it’s not a PvE game why add so much PvE content over the years for PvE only players? CCP have been treating Eve as a PvE game for 4 years.

If Eve is not a PvE game why add in PvE stuff like Cosmos? Face the facts Eve is both a PvE and PvP game. Many players only fall into one of the two category’s.




Face it , EvE has probably the worst PvE out there except maybe diablo clones . You seem to miss the whole ideea of PvP , and "category" is , imho , what CCP should avoid or try to fix at all costs .

So you`ll quit? EvE will die if it does not catter to PvE`ers? Guess what , most games die because they try to please everyone , or in other words , they try to clone WoW . Imho , the MMO industry has grown so much that success can only be achieved if they try to hit and please a certain segment of the playerbase. There are SOO many FOR EVERYONE games out there that noone ever heard off....sure maybe every now and then something comes out that may be a success..but..

I really have a hard time understanding why anyone would play eve for PvE, it`s so mind-numbingly booring and dull and terrible and ...yeah , that it makes lineage 2 grind seem fun by comparison

What EvE has goin is the unique nature of player-player interaction , and a big part of that player-player interaction is PvP . I was hoping EvE would continue to evolve in that direction , with emphasis on MASIVELY MULTIPLAYER and a gradual removal of the NPC crotches , but aparently it`s gowing the other way with this dumbed-down FW thing :(

I love my RP though , I love background to my game , to my character , to my actions , I was looking forward to factional warfare hoping for a new way for players to influence the core of the game and YES even drive the story a certain way, I was extatic about actually HURTING the darn so-called republic and actually BRINGING the true faith to the universe , and leaving , as insignificant as it may be , a mark on the game....
But what do I get? more missions and a dumbed -down "capture-the-flag" pathetic excuse for FW

I really don`t get it :( you should be happy about it ( PvE`ers ) and I should be ****ed...

Erm...if i didn`t know better i`d actually believe CCP really screwed up with this

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:35:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
New mission or old mission when they are changed reset to lowest pay possible. Then after the mission has been run a large number of times the pay start increasing to match the actual rate of success. From what I gather only recently the reward of level 5 missions has started to rise a bit for the action of the autobalancing system (as it has gathered enough data to start modifing the payout).

Changing the payout without setting it so that it start at a high level mean that it will actually lower again, to rise after 1 year of mission running (a net effect of the low number of level 5 missions run).

Then the split by 10 - run mission with 10 people system is a god way to keep pay lower.

The autobalancing system don't consider that running a mission with 10 people is faster than with 5 or 2, so it will use all the missions results to balance the reward.

Result successful mission will result done fast (10 man gang) and the reward will not increase.

So reward will continue not to be on line with time and people needed.

Have you tried the new level 5 missions on the test server?
CCP have announced that they're changing the payouts on them to make them rewarding enough that people will actually do them. I don't know how they're changing them and certainly don't have the SP to go and run one on the test server and find out. But they are changing them. Try before you poast.

Pantaloon McPants
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:35:00 - [176]
 

what else can they add? how many times can you recycle the same npc rat variations in missions or types of ores to mine or crap to transport from port a to port b.

I guess the next step is tech 3 mods and invention and what not, still plenty of pve junk for you to do in eve until then eh?

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:12:00 - [177]
 

“I dont care what some random website says, if a player is in competition with another player then it is PVP.”
PvP has a meaning and that is combat between players. Why change a definition for a word that means combat between players in pretty much every other game? A no PvP/Area doesn’t mean no market, no trading, no mining, no building. If you play a none PvP game or on a none PvPserver you still have all those things.
Go look up the history and meaning behind the word PvP. It’s very much a combat word.




“I really have a hard time understanding why anyone would play eve for PvE, it`s so mind-numbingly booring and dull and terrible and ...yeah , that it makes lineage 2 grind seem fun by comparison”
Well if you seem to think PvE is running none stop missions from agents in base’s which is wrong. The way you feel about missions is how some of us feel about PvP. Not everyone is the same.




“But what do I get? more missions and a dumbed -down "capture-the-flag" pathetic excuse for FW
I really don`t get it :( you should be happy about it ( PvE`ers ) and I should be ****ed...”

No we should both be ****ed. The PvE for the most part don’t like it due to the PvP parts and the PvP people don’t like it due to the PvE parts. Not only that but the 0.0 PvP also get pretty much no new content. Yes some people like the Hybrid content but how many?





“what else can they add? how many times can you recycle the same npc rat variations in missions or types of ores to mine or crap to transport from port a to port b.”
New ships, new skills, new concepts like faction gear that gives extra bonus on faction ships, PvE puzzles, more hidden storyline, T3, there are lots of concepts which would be good for both PvE and PvP.





“So you`ll quit? EvE will die if it does not catter to PvE`ers? Guess what , most games die because they try to please everyone , or in other words , they try to clone WoW .”
Yes Eve will die as I consider the market and mining PvE so take out new content from that and Eve dies. Yes a game that tries to cater to everyone tends to die but so does one that ignores large parts of the player base. You need a balance middle ground which CCP used to do with older expansions. This expansion ignores a large part of the PvE and PvP player base and that’s bad however you look at it. Lets generalise a little too much and assume all 3 parts of the game are the same size, high sec space, low sec space and deep space. This expansion ignores deep space and high sec space so 66.6% of the game player base who live in those areas get nothing new. This has never happened in any older expansion. To take part in FW you have to abandon your 0.0 alliance. If anything low sec space is smaller then high sec and deep space.

Ethaet
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:27:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
This expansion ignores deep space and high sec space so 66.6% of the game player base who live in those areas get nothing new.


Closer to 85%.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:39:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/05/2008 18:42:09
Originally by: Pottsey
Quote:
I dont care what some random website says, if a player is in competition with another player then it is PVP.
PvP has a meaning and that is combat between players. Why change a definition for a word that means combat between players in pretty much every other game?
Because it doesn't matter what it means in other games – in this game PvP means what is says on the can: Player versus Player. Two players competing against each other. In EVE, PvP comes in many forms – shooting other players' ships is only one of them.

In fact, if you want to be pedantic, not even the missions are PvE, since at any time, another player can come in and steal your thunder (not to mention your loot, your salvage, and the unexploded bits of your ship). Even there, you can (and sooner or later will) come in conflict with other players.
Quote:
A no PvP/Area doesn’t mean no market, no trading, no mining, no building. If you play a none PvP game or on a none PvPserver you still have all those things.
Go look up the history and meaning behind the word PvP. It’s very much a combat word.
…all of which is completely irrelevant.

Your entire argument rests on your thoroughly flawed idea of what PvP entails. EVE differs from most (if not all) other MMOs, and unless you leave your preconceptions behind, you will never understand how EVE works, or why it evolves in the way it does. It doesn't matter what you think PvP is, or what it is in other MMOs – those are not EVE, and what you think runs counter to what everyone in EVE does.

Suck it up.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:48:00 - [180]
 

they're never going to make you feel immersed or excited while mining or running missions 23 hours a day so just give it a rest. the whole 'massively multiplayer' part of eve should tip you off. its up to you to make this game enjoyable. not find something you want to do then ***** incessantly that doing the same repetitious task is boring and they should make it more fun. keep sitting there playing by yourself, and you'll eventually figure out that you're a pretty ****ty playmate.

or you could just go run trade routes in X3.


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