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Zurin Arctus
Posted - 2008.06.14 19:07:00 - [151]
 

Quote:
OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both


I stopped reading there.

Laughing

Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.14 20:02:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Zurin Arctus
Quote:
OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both


I stopped reading there.

Laughing

Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.


Rolling Eyes

Terrible post spotted.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.14 23:58:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Myrkala
/signed

The argument about "Hardest to train for -> Should be best" sounds good.

But I would really like to see this:


1. Give the naglfar 3 Turret (and 3 Missile Hardpoints)

Argument:

Gives the pilots the option to train for either weapon system, giving them options and also opening the doors a bit wider for Minmatar Pilots who want to train for them, shortening the time it takes to train.

3 Turret slots is pretty obvious, split weapon system on a dread is just idiotic, I can't see any reason for having one on a dread.

Giving the option to use launchers as well follows the minmatar way of being "versatile."

2. Boost fittings

Quote OP.


I don't have a problem with the Naglfar being the hardest to train for and arguably the worst, it's more the EXTREME difference between it and the other dreads. It just cant even come close to the revelation in any aspect. The only dread it beats in any aspect is the phoenix with it's dps, but even then the pheonix has twice the effective hp and 3-4 times the alpha.

Originally by: Zurin Arctus
Quote:
OR 3 gun hardpoints and 3 missile launcher hardpoints with a boost to the ships damage bonus for both


I stopped reading there.

Laughing

Give us a break, Minny trolls. You're still one of the two best PvP races in the game.


Thank god you stopped reading at the end of my post, I'm glad you took those few extra saved seconds to post this.

Chungito
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.06.15 01:11:00 - [154]
 

Agree.

Veryez
Posted - 2008.06.15 01:28:00 - [155]
 

There's a reason I won't train cap ships. Currently, Minmatar caps are NOT worth it. Please look at this.

Jeckes
Posted - 2008.06.15 02:59:00 - [156]
 

minmatar ships dont use cap to fire... immune to vamp and neut systems locking down their firepower. seems like a fair trade.

Namurung
Posted - 2008.06.15 03:10:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Yorda
Edited by: Yorda on 31/05/2008 22:18:33
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

So Amarrian HACs, BC's, CSes, BBs, and capitals are good, but nothing below that rates better than a "fine"(and one of those fines is for a dictor being able to bubble)? I think you just proved his point.

Also, I'm rather a fan of the Sleip and the Mael - I don't fly Minmatar, but they looks really sweet on EFT, and my Min-flying buddies agree. That said, the capitals are definitely crap.


All AFs suck, destroyers for all races are terrible, t1 frigs are basically the same, the new omen is a decent t1 cruiser, the pilgrim is terrible but I wouldn't say amarr has it so much worse than minmatar that it deserves it's capitals to be vastly better than minmatar's.

The Sleip is one of those ships that you have to put a decent amount of money down on to make good, and is only really good in very small fights. The Mael is an okay PvE ship but I'd take a tempest over it in most PvP fights.


uh wow, are you one of those noobs who tried using a destroyer with low gunnery skills and destroyer L1? cause I can tell you right now, appropriately used destroyers pwn face. tackler? gone. AF on your primaried? gone.

before you go making generalizations, try to use the ship, oh and fit it well. destroyers can use much better tanking modules than a frig vessel. if you're dying too fast in a desy, you suck at fitting and/or skills.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.15 03:37:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Namurung

uh wow, are you one of those noobs who tried using a destroyer with low gunnery skills and destroyer L1? cause I can tell you right now, appropriately used destroyers pwn face. tackler? gone. AF on your primaried? gone.

before you go making generalizations, try to use the ship, oh and fit it well. destroyers can use much better tanking modules than a frig vessel. if you're dying too fast in a desy, you suck at fitting and/or skills.


Which is why all the competent alliances use them all the time, right? Right?

Oakrayven
Gallente
Federal Defence Union

Posted - 2008.06.15 04:22:00 - [159]
 

you would think the developers would have realised this by now.

oh right.

Nevermind. . . after all we all know that none of the developers actualy play EVE. . .

OrangeAfroMan
Minmatar
AnTi.
Atrocitas
Posted - 2008.06.15 18:51:00 - [160]
 

Supported.

Atari Sakura
Minmatar
Debitum Naturae

Posted - 2008.06.15 23:19:00 - [161]
 

/signed

Sir Ibex
Posted - 2008.06.16 00:37:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)

Ort Lofthus
Huang Yinglong

Posted - 2008.06.16 01:22:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Ort Lofthus on 16/06/2008 01:22:36
Originally by: Sir Ibex
Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)



The problem with balancing around whole races is that you are not limited to the race you start with. When it comes to dreadnaughts, the only thing keeping you from switching races is weapon training and battleship training, which in the grand scheme of things is a pretty minor chunk of time considering the vast improvement you get flying non-minmatar capitals.

Its ok for races to have a certain flavor to them, and its ok that this flavor makes them better or worse in certain ship types. The problem is that since any player can fly any ship in the end game, you need each ship in a type (HAC, dread, whatever) to have a use in some role. Its ok if other dreads are in general superior as long as the naglfar is better in particular, relevant, situations. It currently has advantages in some very odd and rare situations and the performance increase in these situations simply does not make it worth it. The problem seems to really stem from the lack of a mid/low, the even spreading of mids/lows, and the dual weapons that make damage mods somewhat useless. I would say move a low to a mid and add a mid to make it a shield tanker, leaving the lows for damage mods (which it will be pretty inefficient with still, but since it can have a non-garbage shield tank, it sorta works out).

IMO the niddy is pretty decent now, since it can fit a thanatos's tank while having superior repping ability and the ability to fit both shield and armor transfers (cpu issues on shield transfers aside). Its a niche role, but it doesn't give up that much for this and its a role that is relevant.

Snow Tigress
Posted - 2008.06.16 03:13:00 - [164]
 

Supported.

Destovel
Posted - 2008.06.16 08:49:00 - [165]
 

Minmatar = eve in hard mode

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.16 13:08:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Yorda on 16/06/2008 13:08:15
Originally by: Sir Ibex
Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)


As I've said before I dont really have a problem with them being the worst capitals, but more that they're the worst capitals by such a huge margin. If you have all the skills for a nidhoggur (min BS V, capital armor tanking etc) but do not have large projectile V (which is pretty worthless considering how much minmatar BS sucks at sniping) it's actually quicker for you to train amarr BS V and large lasers V and get into a Revelation especially when you consider the training required for decent missile skills that most minmatar pilots probably dont have. Not to mention you can now fly a pretty nice Apoc or Abbadon and are close to T2 large beams / pulses with decent gunnery skills shared with minmatar.

The Vagabond may be the king of HACs and the rifter the king of T1 frigates, but there's plenty of other good HACs (the zealot and the sacrilege are both very nice) that are almost as good as the vagabond but also have good battleships and the best capitals. Any smart pilot would just train minmatar cruiser V, not bother with min BS at all, and just train for amarr capitals. Getting the best of both worlds with relatively little extra training.

Basically, just because minmatar have the best cruisers doesn't mean they should have absolutely terrible capitals, supercapitals, and battleships.

Moscow Blue
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.06.16 16:20:00 - [167]
 

yes, make missile hardpoints go away, tia

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.16 20:24:00 - [168]
 

Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.17 02:37:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.


Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...

Zeminy
Minmatar
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.06.17 03:48:00 - [170]
 

Agreed.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.17 04:12:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.


Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...


Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?

Paul LikesMen
Posted - 2008.06.17 10:49:00 - [172]
 

I agree with this post,

Even though I'm amarr

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.17 14:04:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.


Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...


Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?


Seems it needs repeating since its obviously not getting through. Smile

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.17 23:23:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Best XYZ sized ships doesn't mean that Min caps should be laughably bad. I don't necessarily want Min caps to be the best caps, just not as bad as they are. Worst DPS and worst tank Dread is fine, but the currently the gap is so huge that you'd be better off cross training for another race. Add on top of that the extra training needed for 2 weapon systems (dont forget supports skills) and you really don't have much incentive to not just suck it up and train another race for cap ships. 3 races of viable cap ships is pathetic.


Hmm, where have I heard this before... can't remember...


Kinda seems like something you said. That was you, wasn't it?

Seems it needs repeating since its obviously not getting through. Smile


What this issue actually needs is some CSM support. Unfortunately both goon reps dont want to focus on specific issues (rather the larger, more important ones) and a goon suggest it so everyone else is out or something.

That or none of the other CSM reps have ever flown a minmatar cap ship (or any cap ship for that matter).


Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society

Posted - 2008.06.18 02:08:00 - [175]
 

I agree Minmatar Caps need some fixing.
However, The Dread is an Armor Tanker No? What it needs is an Extra low, and one less mid. Also split weapon bonuses suck in general.
Also its lunacy for having the Mothership break the mold and be a shield tanker, so much extra training ontop of extra training.

Directly compairing the Thanatos to the Nid, well its insane the crappyness of the Nid with the OPs earlier comparasons.
heck give the Nag, the choice of 3/3 turrets/launchers, one less high and one more low, let the player pick launchers or turrets for it, and that way they can stick in a damage mod in that low and they are all set.

And somehow fix the Nid, its just poo.

Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
Posted - 2008.06.18 04:05:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 18/06/2008 04:10:05
Originally by: Sir Ibex
Edited by: Sir Ibex on 16/06/2008 00:37:57
Good points, but if everyone and everything was equal, what fun would this game be? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. You don't want everything to be perfectly balanced out. It might be nice to make Minmatar capitals "somewhat" more powerful, but they shouldn't be in any way equal to Thanatos, or any other "better" ship. I agree that maybe easing the training requirements would be nice, but there should be no big changes to slots, cap, or whatever else.

The major reason why you are upset really, is cause you're Minmatar, and you want to have strong capitals. You don't care what happens in the process, you just want it done.

By the same token, maybe I hate that the Nighthawk doesn't really do much more damage than a Drake. Yes it has a hell of a tank, but I want more damage on it! It's a friggin' command ship after all! Well, too bad for me... If I want a higher dps command ship I'll have to train for one from another race.

Minmatar might have sucky carriers, but they have ships that are the best in their class as opposed to other races. For example, I cant think of a ship that would compare to a Vagabond or a Rifter in their respecting class... (these might not be the best examples though. But I'm sure you get the idea)

So in the end, my vote is yay, and nay at the same time. ;)


I voted yes but i agree with your point of view. Minmatar capitals should remain the weakest but the skills needed for them shoudl be diminished. So for Naglfar for example maybe give them 3 turrets slots with the appropriate bonuses so that the base damage remains what it is with todays 2+2 or even somewhat less than the base damage of todays *by base damage i mean the damage it does without any weapon upgrade mods installed.*

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.18 12:54:00 - [177]
 

If you want an idea of just how terrible the Naglfar is, a Naglfar with five officer damage mods does less damage than a revelation with 3 T2 damage mods and the lowest type of faction ammo.

(http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0806/Nag_vs._Rev2.jpg)

I'm fine with them being the worst, but come on. You also need an officer co-processor or a faction co-processor + 5% cpu implant to fit a shield tank on the nag setup.

Rabid Rich
Posted - 2008.06.18 14:16:00 - [178]
 

tbh alot of the suggestions DON'T GO FAR ENOUGH. i think ++damage is the way to balance this ship- put the "cannon" back into "Glass Cannon" so to say.

without changing any slots or bonuses, just upping to 4 turret hardpoints(retaining option to fit 2 launchers though, and the launcher bonus if you like) with no other changes, would go a long way towards putting the damage type and quantity(with a couple of gyros)in the right ballpark.

Kyle Welder
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.18 14:39:00 - [179]
 


Mia Kahn
Posted - 2008.06.18 15:11:00 - [180]
 

IMO:

4 Highs, 3 Turrets, 0 Missiles
6 Mids
6 Lows

7.5% Capital Projectile RoF, 5% Capital Projectile Damage

Bang! You have a big Tempest, that can do light tank shield tank + high dps, or armor tank + comparable dps to the other dreads. Even with this considerable bonus, Capital Projectiles may need a small boost to bring them in line with the other dreads.

Also capital autocannons really need to be looked at, as fighting in falloff isn't really a considerable tactic when your primary purpose is to be anchored in one place due to siege, therefore the high paper DPS of capital autos means nothing because you will at least be fighting at some range.


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