open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Issue] Minmatar capitals are terrible
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (20)

Author Topic

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.03 12:55:00 - [61]
 

Yes please.

(Capitals in total need a revamp - tanking is too important to give one race the uber-tanks and the rest some nice little bonuses - but that should be a different topic; right now, the only reason to train for Minmatar capitals is that they look awesome. Which is cool, but a bit more game balance would be nice :-))

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.03 13:00:00 - [62]
 

This.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.03 13:24:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Yorda on 03/06/2008 14:26:29
Originally by: Dav Varan
Just a quick question.

The op states that the Nag needs to use 4 damage mods to compete with the other Dreads

How can this be when the Nag starts with 33% more firepower than other dreads due to 4 weapons instead of 3 ?

Assuming tech II modules.

With todays stacking penalties 3 bcu on a phoenix would only give a total damage modifier of 1.57
3 weapons * 1.57 = 4.71

Compared to a nagflar with 1 bcu and 1 gyro
4 weapons * 1.2 = 4.8

So now you 2 extra slots for tanking whether you go shield or armor I dont know.

But do you still say the Nag needs love ?.


Plug it into EFT and take a look. There are two glaring problems with the nags split weapon bonus. First, every other dread has two bonuses for it's gun type, the nag has to one ship bonus for each of it's weapon type. Now take any of the other dreads, if they fit 2 damage mods those damage mods apply to all 3 of thier weapons. The Nag fits two damage and it either only applies to 2 of it's weapons, or each weapon only gets 1 damage mod. To get the same effect as 2 damage mods on all of it's weapons, it needs to fit 4 damage mods (2 for each weapon).

Also the relatively low dps of both projectile weapons and capital torps doesn't help the nag's dps.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.03 14:42:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Lopin Acheteur
The naglfar does more damage than any of the other dreads at an effective POS siege range (all the others only have 4 high slots, 3 for weapons, the naglfar has 5 high slots, for 4 weapons.). You are forgetting that the Naglfar can fit close range weapons and still be effective, while blasters and pulses tend to come in under the range required to be effective in a POS siege and useless unless you are ontop of enemy capitals in a capital fight.

If you were to balance it to require just guns, you would need to remove a high slot like all the other dreads, then you could give double damage bonuses instead of the current split bonuses. There is a danger of making all the dreads too generic though, I did like the flavour the split system gave. The phoenix does the lowest damage, but it is forgiving of range. The Moros does excellent drone damage, but it can't use blasters effectively in most situations, it also has a weaker tank than the revelation. The Revelation is probably the best dread out there for sieges, not requiring you to keep pressing fire, having a good range and tanking well.

The Nidhoggur is already arguably the best carrier out there for the usual remote repping circlejerk setups that you see these days, giving it an extra mid would be unbalanced, it had one removed to give it an extra low. I personally think this was a mistake, given that there are already two armor tanking carriers, and this as you point out means training another skillset, although being minmatar you should probably be used to this. Faster regen on the Nidhoggur also suits its role as the best remote repping carrier out there, being as the cap trick doesn't really work on capital ships, it will easily out rep the other carriers, the Thanatos's damage bonus isn't hugely significant anymore (in days of assigned fighters from behind POS shields it was). With the change to an armor tank, the CPU isn't really an issue, as it isn't on the archon or thanatos.

ALL capital ships need more CPU, especially the ones that shield tank you need fitting mods on the Phoenix/Chimera still also, which for a capital ship is ridiculous. Grid as far as I'm aware is a total non issue, I've never seen anyone run out of grid on any potential capital ship fit.


There's a lot of misconceptions here that are pretty common with people who don't actually know what they're talking about. First off, just because the Naglfar has 4 turret slots doesn't mean for half a second it does more damage than any of the other dreads thanks to the reasons I mentioned in the post before this one (mainly that projectile and torp damage is low in comparison to beams / rails + crazy drone bonuses). People will never fit auto cannons on a nag because if for whatever reason you have to shoot things further away (say pos mods, or getting hot dropped) you'll be completely screwed. You could fit pulses on the revelation and get just as long range, but you'd be in the same boat. It's much better to fit long range guns and use short range ammo, switching to longer range ammo if needed. At this point, I'd be very happy with double weapon bonuses for both weapons (just take on rof and damage mod instead of just one).

Secondly, before the nidhoggur change the nidhoggur was the absolute worst carrier by far. It had a terrible shield tank and because pds suck vs. cap rechargers for cap it had terrible capacitor. In order to correct this you'd probably need to take away a low slot and add two medium slots (basically taking the previous change in the other direction) and adding a large capacitor buff to the nidhoggur. People would probably just armor tank it and use the insane mid slots for even more insane cap regen though. Oh, and you can still assign fighters and sit in poses you just nudge outside the shields, assign fighters, and go back inside. The naglfar is the ONLY CAPITAL TO REQUIRE FITTING MODS. Chimera and phoenixes use PDS for cap regen, not fitting.

Beryllium
Perkone

Posted - 2008.06.03 14:55:00 - [65]
 

Minmatar capitals need some love.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2008.06.03 15:16:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Yorda

Plug it into EFT and take a look. There are two glaring problems with the nags split weapon bonus. First, every other dread has two bonuses for it's gun type, the nag has to one ship bonus for each of it's weapon type. Now take any of the other dreads, if they fit 2 damage mods those damage mods apply to all 3 of thier weapons. The Nag fits two damage and it either only applies to 2 of it's weapons, or each weapon only gets 1 damage mod. To get the same effect as 2 damage mods on all of it's weapons, it needs to fit 4 damage mods (2 for each weapon).

Also the relatively low dps of both projectile weapons and capital torps doesn't help the nag's dps.


I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please

Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag

Cant help but feel that your underestimating the influence of the 4th capital weapon this is 33% more highslot resourse than available to other dreads which compensate via better use of damage mods.


Tubuku
Minmatar
Damage Unlimited Inc
AN EYE F0R AN EYE
Posted - 2008.06.03 16:55:00 - [67]
 

Has never made sense to me that I needed to train 2 weapon systems to 5, use 2x the damage mods and my reward for that is medicore dps and a weak tank.

Supported.

DaMadness
Posted - 2008.06.03 17:01:00 - [68]
 

signed

Nova Satar
Sileo In Pacis
Posted - 2008.06.03 18:07:00 - [69]
 

/Signed

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.03 19:36:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/06/2008 19:40:55
Originally by: Dav Varan
I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please

Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag


Long-range dreads with 3x damage mod (Naglfar with 2x BCU, 1x Gyro, best combo), closest-range ammo, Garde IIs, all skills at 5. As the Republic Fleet XL ammo has been removed from LP stores shortly after the introduction for reasons beyond me, the Naglfar and Phoenix can not use faction ammo. I added in parens the dps numbers if Moros/Rev use faction ammo.

Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:28:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Yorda on 03/06/2008 20:43:02
Edited by: Yorda on 03/06/2008 20:42:24
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/06/2008 19:40:55
Originally by: Dav Varan
I dont have access to EFT atm can you put up the dps numbers for the ranged ship setups your talking about please

Rail moros v Beam Rev v Citadel Phoenix v ( Arty/Citadel ) Nag


Long-range dreads with 3x damage mod (Naglfar with 2x BCU, 1x Gyro, best combo), closest-range ammo, Garde IIs, all skills at 5. As the Republic Fleet XL ammo has been removed from LP stores shortly after the introduction for reasons beyond me, the Naglfar and Phoenix can not use faction ammo. I added in parens the dps numbers if Moros/Rev use faction ammo.

Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)


Thanks, I'm stuck at work without EFT also but IIRC with 4 (2x gyro, 2x bcu) faction damage mods and all other dreads having 2 faction damage mods the phoenix had ~3900 dps, the nag ~4100 dps, the moros ~4800 dps, and the rev ~4900 dps (This might have been with faction ammo too). Of course the phoenix had something close to 80k alpha (and the other dreads around 20k). This is with the nag having twice the number of damage mods as other ships, it just doesn't make sense. Also IIRC the effective hp of the dreads is: nag about 1-1.3mil, the pheonix 2mil+, the revelation and the moros 1.8-2mil.

I'm not estimating anything anyway, I wrote this after looking around at tower killmails / eft. Oh, did I mention that extra fourth turret also means you use 133% ammo too (in comparison to the moros / phoenix)? That's great when your cargohold is full up of stront / fuel / ammo.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.03 21:06:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Yorda
Oh, did I mention that extra fourth turret also means you use 133% ammo too (in comparison to the moros / phoenix)? That's great when your cargohold is full up of stront / fuel / ammo.


Now, now!

The Phoenix uses 25.8 m3 of ammo per siege cycle, the Naglfar 42.2 m3, and the Moros 57 m3 per siege cycle (my fit above, EMP/AM ammo). And the Naglfar has the largest cargo hold of them all! It's not the worst everywhere. Of course, if you look at the ammo cost of a single siege cycle, the Naglfar shines again: 242,088.26 ISK! The siege cycle of the Phoenix costs 228,996.50 ISK, while the economical Moros only needs 215,503.32 ISK!

(No, this is not a serious balancing post.)

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.03 22:09:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Phoenix - 3531 dps
Naglfar - 3682 dps
Moros - 4352 dps (4848 dps)
Revelation - 4383 dps (4996 dps)


Just a note. I didn't do the exact calculations (just rough ones), but it seems that when shooting a Minmatar control tower with no shield hardener arrays, this roughly balances out again. (Once you start fitting hardener arrays, it approaches the above values again)

The point for me here is that the Naglfar is not, in itself, completely inferior to the other dreads. In competent hands, it's slightly worse, but not completely outclassed. The main problem is that you need to train multiple weapon systems to achieve the same effect as with other dreads.

Hehulk
Black Sea Industries

Posted - 2008.06.03 22:46:00 - [74]
 

Well presented arguement as to why us minnie cap pilots could use a boost

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:12:00 - [75]
 

/signed

arghy steelwill
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:15:00 - [76]
 

I have not embarked on cap skill training purely because my racial caps really suck and i'm a staunch minny pilot damnit! i dont care if my tempest is primary every fight while costing more then other T2 snipers! i chose minmatar because i love artys.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.06.03 23:18:00 - [77]
 

I agree Minmatar capitals need to be revised. But not what your selling.

Min Qa

Posted - 2008.06.03 23:40:00 - [78]
 

Minnie cap ships need a buff, although I am not sure about your particular boosts mentioned. Unified tanking skills would certainly be a start.

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.06.04 11:35:00 - [79]
 

So signed.

darthkalo
Posted - 2008.06.04 11:57:00 - [80]
 

/signed

TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.06.04 13:33:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 04/06/2008 13:33:36
Originally by: Yorda
...

Dreads:
Revelation and Moros have massive cap use. Nag uses no cap for guns. They need more cap mods than nag. Usually dread fit to be cap stable with 3 guns + 1 cap rep to avoid lag. That is a massive disadvatage for caldari.

Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.

Shield tanking needs a rank 4 100% useless skill(unlike missile skills) to be at level 5. Moros needs t2 sentry drones to make the most out of it. Hardest training times? most likely, but only slightly.

Carrier:

You mention that the stats are better for Thanatos, but if you actually look at the differences you will see that nidhoggur performs very similar compared to other carriers, hardly anything to whine about. Remote rep bonus is not bad at all.

Supercaps: .....


Ok, the minmatar capitals are not the very best of all, but they are decent. No one will ever say to a minmatar spec char to train some other race's capitals. Minor boosts to nid/nag such as bigger armor hp at the expense of shield hp or a slight increase for capital projectile(5%-10%?) is ok and understandable, but major boosts such as adding slots are not required.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.04 14:08:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Yorda on 04/06/2008 14:12:06
Edited by: Yorda on 04/06/2008 14:11:10
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Dreads:
Revelation and Moros have massive cap use. Nag uses no cap for guns. They need more cap mods than nag. Usually dread fit to be cap stable with 3 guns + 1 cap rep to avoid lag. That is a massive disadvatage for caldari.

Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.

Shield tanking needs a rank 4 100% useless skill(unlike missile skills) to be at level 5. Moros needs t2 sentry drones to make the most out of it. Hardest training times? most likely, but only slightly.


You can armor tank your Nag, but then it does even less damage than a shield tanking one (I believe it becomes on par or below the phoenix) and you have less effective hp. In any fleet battle the dreads tank is rather meaningless, you just have to hope your siege deactivates so the carriers can remote rep you up because your tank isn't going to work on more than 1 other dread. In fact if you look at RA's latest nag loss, it's 3 revelations and they only did 1.1mil damage to him.

Just because someone does it differently it doesn't make it right. If you would like I could rewrite the original post with armor tanking and apart from lowering the training time ~25days for tactical shield manipulation V the Nag would be even more ****tier. Atleast with the moros's t2 sentries you get to use that on other ships, when was the last time you used torps (which the nag requires ONTOP of capital projectiles)? A high sec gank is about all they're good for, or maybe cyno jammer takedowns.

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Ok, the minmatar capitals are not the very best of all, but they are decent. No one will ever say to a minmatar spec char to train some other race's capitals. Minor boosts to nid/nag such as bigger armor hp at the expense of shield hp or a slight increase for capital projectile(5%-10%?) is ok and understandable, but major boosts such as adding slots are not required.


As a Minmatar character through and through, and as much as I love my tempest, I would tell any newbie to stop training minmatar at cruisers and to not even bother with anything bs and above. They are outclassed and outshined by every other race in capitals and battleships. The nidhoggur/hel are okay, but they're not worth being stuck with terrible battleships/dreads/titans.

Yorda
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.04 19:01:00 - [83]
 

OP updated with revised list of changes.

Dinique
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.04 20:24:00 - [84]
 

In agreement with the OP

xCOUNTx
GoonFleet
Posted - 2008.06.04 21:22:00 - [85]
 

Supported, especially the Naglfar is just embarassingly underpowered.

Porks
Mentis Fidelis
Un-Natural Selection
Posted - 2008.06.05 03:20:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Porks on 05/06/2008 03:29:04
Edited by: Porks on 05/06/2008 03:21:24
Edited by: Porks on 05/06/2008 03:20:10
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Nags do not shield tank. For example, go to RA killboard, look up at nag losses. On the first page of dread losses, all nags are armor tanked. So all the talk about fittings is wrong.



RA extensively use shield tanks for their Nags, so you're quite wrong.

One of the Naglfar's main problems is that there's quite a large difference between certain dreads, and they're at the bottom.

For example, let's compare the top and the bottom:

Revelation
2,149,645 eHP
5477 dps sustained tank (lasts ~6 minutes while firing)
6317 dps outgoing (6580 with sentries)
Very much cap stable while firing (+112/-77)
Fits with almost 30% cpu and pg free.
1700m2 sigrad

Naglfar
2,091,306 eHP
1348 dps sustained tank (10577 burst - lasts ~2mins)
4020 dps outgoing (4283 with sentries)
Requires all faction lows to fit plus a 1-3% cpu implant.
1850m2 sigrad

Note that this is with similar care to fittings: both have faction lows though only the naglfar requires it, both use faction ammo (though only 2 of the naglfar's guns can use faction ammo - there are no faction torps). Both are done using an all-5 character.


BUT I GUESS IT'S OKAY BECAUSE THE NAGLFAR CAN ALIGN A FULL 2.7 SECONDS FASTER WOOTAH MINMATAR AGILITY (30.4s/27.7s)

Voculus
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.06.05 07:56:00 - [87]
 

Everything Minmatar, from Battleships, upward need a boost, but this definitely gets a Please visit your user settings to re-enable images..

The split weapon system on the Naglfar is a sick joke, and a poorly-thought design.

Harik A'ttar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.06.05 09:08:00 - [88]
 

Chiming in for my support here. I trained right up to dreads - then realized the naglfar was basically a complete waste of my time. Killing a highslot and converting it to pure projectile would be a good start, although as Yorda has pointed out that's still not putting it in the same realm as the Revelation is.

I'll probably end up crosstraining to Amarr caps, which is a pity since I really like the unique look of the nag.

Unreal5
Enterprise Estonia
Posted - 2008.06.05 09:44:00 - [89]
 

yes

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.06.05 10:55:00 - [90]
 

I've never had a problem with mini being the jack of trades master of none race, armour or shield tank, turrets or missiles, in fact I like it, but what I hate is that most of the ships have undefined roles in terms of there tank.

I mentioned this in another post in ships and mods forum, make the ships more specific, give a slot layout that suggests a shield or armour tank, don't give it 5 mids, 6 lows and higher shield hp's in the case of the tempest, give the extra mid for low and let it be a shield tanker or vice versa, or whatever, let them do both but tie down the ships to a specific tank is all, or if you do want to make it optional for a ship to choose, balance the slots and hp's.

As for the naglfar, its a joke. Somebody really f*cked up there, longest training time for a dread, laughable tank, and lets be honest, didn't the fact you had to add another weapon slot not alert you to the fact there might just be a problem with the ship??

Also the Ragnarok, sig radius bonus!!!!!! LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

When you guys do f*ck it up, you do properly.

Whilst some of the criticism may seem a bit on the harsh side, I would argue the point that obvious and stupid mistakes should always be highlighted and the perpetrators constantly reminded that in some cases they'd come a poor second to a house brick in an IQ test.

Wink


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (20)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only