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blankseplocked [Issue] The whole CSM thing should be quietly dropped
 
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Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.05.28 11:59:00 - [31]
 

I also agree ive been reading this forum for a while now. And most Threads are already in the Ideas Section. There is no new topic.
Also when you check what ppl suggest its mostly that something is in the way how hey wanna play the game without paying attention about the bigger picture.
In a nuthshell its the same BS over and over again, "nerf this" "buff that" bla. Most topics have been discussed aboout a million times.

Also I must say that so few ppl actually voted and I guess quiet a few are alts of the ppl that actually voted that this council is nowhere near the mark of being elected by the mayoreti of the players.
Also iam a bit suprised that ppl values CSM higher then the actual Player. Just because 2k ppl voted for someone doenst make what he is saying right nor correct. Most of the votes are based on some wrong Hype of ppl and/or that ppl wanted their CEO/Leader/member in that council.

Christy Walton
Caldari
Bloodveil
Posted - 2008.05.28 12:50:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1
I also agree ive been reading this forum for a while now. And most Threads are already in the Ideas Section. There is no new topic.
Also when you check what ppl suggest its mostly that something is in the way how hey wanna play the game without paying attention about the bigger picture.
In a nuthshell its the same BS over and over again, "nerf this" "buff that" bla. Most topics have been discussed aboout a million times.

Also I must say that so few ppl actually voted and I guess quiet a few are alts of the ppl that actually voted that this council is nowhere near the mark of being elected by the mayoreti of the players.
Also iam a bit suprised that ppl values CSM higher then the actual Player. Just because 2k ppl voted for someone doenst make what he is saying right nor correct. Most of the votes are based on some wrong Hype of ppl and/or that ppl wanted their CEO/Leader/member in that council.


this.

Jokus Balim
Minmatar
Capital Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2008.05.28 17:09:00 - [33]
 

Give the CSM a chance. If it's crap, it's gone in six months. If it works, there is no reason for bickering.

But I just have to vote yes, cause I find it funny to have "Self Destruction" as an agenda item for the CSM sessions.

Dionisius
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.05.28 18:31:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Dionisius on 28/05/2008 18:33:53
Taken from ArrowDEV BLOG

Originally by: CCP
Eligibility for voting is simple, if your account is 30 days or older, you can vote. There is one vote per account meaning that those with multiple accounts have multiple votes.


Unfair and completely wrong, this is the kind of action that leads to rigging elections.

Originally by: CCP
All players can propose a topic to be handled by the Council.
A topic can consist of anything, and deal with any EVE related matter.


Fair enough but.. we can do that already in the Ideas and Features Forums, Ships and Modules, General... kinda repeating don't you think?

Originally by: CCP
Players have to convince one, or more, of the Council members to bring the topic up at a Council meeting.

A 'support' system is in place to allow players to declare support for a topic in a CSM forum channel which will be opened after the election.

This 'support' system will make it easy for the Council members to get an overview of which topics players are concerned about.
If 5% of the voters support a topic, the Council is required to bring it up. This is done to accommodate the voters, not the Council.


So in other words, if i want to use random alts in order to exploit this system i can do it and suit my own whims, again this falls under the same unbalance that the voting system has.

Originally by: CCP

All Council meeting minutes will be documented by the Council members and published for all players.


And?

Originally by: CCP
Topics, reaching the Council, have to receive a majority vote from the Council members before the Council can escalate the topic to the CCP council.

The minimum time a topic has to stay open on the public forum is 7 days before it can be brought up by the Council this applies to topics put forth by the Council members, or the voters.

A topic is brought up in the Council if a Council member decides to bring it up there, yet never before the 7 day discussion period is up.


Errrm excuse me but... what about the 5% support rule? Isn't this kinda oposite to what was stated in that rule? You get 5% support then what the thread is forgotten and its ditched?

Originally by: CCP
Each Council is elected for a mandate period of 6 months; no representative can be elected more than two mandate periods.


In other words... if you exploit the system properly you can run this council with your eve friends and play tag.

Originally by: CCP

The Council will meet with the CCP Council in Iceland once per mandate period. They will also be able to send in topics, via mail, twice during that time. The topics sent in will be replied to by CCP and the answers will be made public.


CCP could just give awards for people to visit the instalations, or you could actually use your comunity manager to answer the "comon" players posts.

Originally by: CCP
CCP commits to give honest and transparent answers to as many of the topics brought up by the Council of Stellar Management as possible.


lol what?!Laughing

Originally by: CCP
While the Council does not have any formal powers within CCP, it is a very important communication conduit between CCP and the players which is why we encourage you to see what the candidates have to say. Our players are why we make this game after all.


If they don't have any formal powers why are they speaking for 1% of the EvE playerbase?

Why can't CCP just make pools and regular threads in the proper places and actually see and reply to ALL the players and not just 9 members of the comunity?

The most important means of comunication is the goodwill of the Dev team and comunity manager and players, plus the hability to discern between good sensible ideias and otherwise.

I dare the CSM members and CCP to try and convince US ALL that this councill is honest and usefull.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.05.28 19:13:00 - [35]
 

Not supported. I am interested to see how the CSM will play out. Dropping it before it has started is rather premature.

Dionisius
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.05.28 20:11:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Dionisius on 29/05/2008 12:10:41
Originally by: Ulstan
Not supported. I am interested to see how the CSM will play out. Dropping it before it has started is rather premature.


Well fair enough .

Edit:

Sorry about the alt part Ulstan.

Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries
Posted - 2008.05.28 21:29:00 - [37]
 

Not supported. Give it a chance. If it turns out to be a rotten egg, throw it out then and only then.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.28 23:29:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Dionisius
Originally by: Ulstan
Not supported. I am interested to see how the CSM will play out. Dropping it before it has started is rather premature.


Well fair enough but the most important question here is, what about your main? What seems to be the bother for some people to be posting with their main characters?


Ulstan is a old and respected character who was associated with one of eve's first and greatest pirate corps the space invaders. Its a bit silly to accuse him of being an alt. Best learn a bit of eve history old chap.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.05.29 11:15:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Ulstan is a old and respected character who was associated with one of eve's first and greatest pirate corps the space invaders. Its a bit silly to accuse him of being an alt. Best learn a bit of eve history old chap.



Your post is totally irrelevant to this thread.

Reported as spam.

Have a nice day.

Dionisius
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.05.29 12:09:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Dionisius on 29/05/2008 12:13:29
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Dionisius
Originally by: Ulstan
Not supported. I am interested to see how the CSM will play out. Dropping it before it has started is rather premature.


Well fair enough but the most important question here is, what about your main? What seems to be the bother for some people to be posting with their main characters?


Ulstan is a old and respected character who was associated with one of eve's first and greatest pirate corps the space invaders. Its a bit silly to accuse him of being an alt. Best learn a bit of eve history old chap.



I don't know every player in EvE and i certainly don't have any method of distinguishing old and "real" players from alts other than most alts don't show corp tickers or mainly are associated with starter corps/strange named ones.

So anyways, you being the chairman of CSM, what can you tell me and the other readers that are sceptic to this new concept that can makes us look and hope this is not what we have been discussing here?


Edit: Off course this invitation is also extended to Wrangler and any other dev / mod / csm member that wishes to give its ideia on the matter.

Gyro DuAquin1
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.05.30 11:48:00 - [41]
 

Ok after checking first page, its still the same ideas. When ccp is going to fix it cause some ppl that have been elected by their posse or jerk crew iam as a normal cuistomer that tried to bring things forward and brought some ideas ask myself am i less worth then anyone with a forum hype, is going to be pretty disapointed about ccp handles things.

In general this forum is Ideas MK2, same ppl, same ideas same discussions. There is tons of good ideas in the ideas section why not simply hire someone in iceland who gets 10 per hour to read forums. I guess tons of ppl would apply to such a job.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.30 12:36:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 30/05/2008 12:43:07
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 30/05/2008 12:40:39

Originally by: Dionisius

So anyways, you being the chairman of CSM, what can you tell me and the other readers that are sceptic to this new concept that can makes us look and hope this is not what we have been discussing here?



Happy to. At the moment we have a council with some very enthusiastic and committed eve players who really want to make the CSM everything it can be. From a pretty much do-it-yourself start in a little over a week we've now got an internal email list, templates for issues in production, an updated independent CSM site, scheduling and formal in game comms. We've opted for transparency in the meetings, and a clear process in pre-publishing agendas and highlighting which issues are up for discussion and voting. We've been criticized for a slightly chaotic first meeting sure, but really, that was a matter of days after the election and we managed to do everything we were expected to do, we selected the council officers and agreed certain administrative policies that will set us in good stead for the time ahead. Yes some of the CSM officers were very new to the business of committee procedure - hopefully they will learn quickly from those reps that are experienced in these areas.

But lets face it - this weekend is going to see us discuss the first player submitted items for the Iceland agenda and anyone can see the agenda for this on the Jita Park forum, I'd say this is pretty speedy process.

Remember please that what we're essentially doing here is making sure that issues important to the player base get debated, voted on a formal agenda for direct discussion with CCP so we get clear answers to give you guys back. This is a clear mission goal and our success or failure will be judged on whether we're effective in getting the right proposals/issues/problems in front of the right people for substantive comment/replay and potential commitment.

In six months time I'll personally consider the job well done if we have a CSM that has gotten substantive feedback and debate on a range of important issues. I want to see us refine and confirm the process of the CSM itself, I want us to tweak the constitution and procedures in a positive direction that strengthens the ability of the CSM to deliver results, I want us to involve the player base correctly, and I want to see us encouraging more people to vote in the next session as they see genuine positive outcomes stemming from the whole idea.

Threads like this one strike me as being negative and pointless nay-saying on minimal evidence and sour grapes. There are players out there who would like the CSM to fail because they've simply down on CCP, down on a candidate, down on the fact they didn't get elected. Whatever the reason the reality is that we've only been in office for 9 days at the moment and we've achieved a heck of a lot really. We've got council officers appointed, process agreed, and first significant issue votes happening tomorrow.

So please forgive me if I'm a bit scathing on the subject of the "lets quit the csm immediately - blah" lobby. I think perceptive readers of the Eve forums can see that in the main the people arguing for this have an agenda of their own, and its not an agenda that has anything to do with the interest and future enrichment of the eve experience for their fellow players.

Give us a chance. Judge us on results. Nothing asked that I wouldn't be happy to pledge to anyone else.



Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.30 12:49:00 - [43]
 


---Continued.

1. Removal of 30/90 day time cards.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777866&page=1

2. Jump Bridges and Cyno-jammers fix.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777554

3. Log Server exploitation/BACON.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777980

4. Skill Queue Functionality?
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=779102

5. 5% rule is too strict.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777807

6. Kill Rights should be transferable.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=778012

7. Alliances in Faction Warfare.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=778272

8. Funky POS alterations.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=778222

9. Improve Black Ops.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777663

10.Make suicide ganking more difficult
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=777704

These are the issues up for voting on Saturday. If you are interested in these issues then contact your CSM reps. Let them know which way you want the vote to go. You asked what you get from the process - well the short answer is you are going to get answers to the questions and proposals and issues that we vote onto the formal Iceland agenda.

Don't see an issue thats important to you on this list? (or anywhere else on the Assembly hall forum?

Get posting.

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2008.05.30 18:14:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 30/05/2008 18:17:12
Agreed.

Youve already got the Vice chairman, an Eve Uni member who was voted in through Eve University block voting - trying to bugger around with the war dec system WHICH COINCIDENTALY is currenlty causing his own university a lot of grief.

<--- my thumb here

The early warning system went off some time ago, and now the bombers of player corruption are spotted on the horizon. Flee for the bunker if you will, but I shall be manning the guns! ALONE IF NEED BE!!

SKUNK

Dionisius
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.05.31 03:45:00 - [45]
 

Read and understood.

Now first things first, thank you very much Jade for taking the time and writting a very good post to clarify things. ( i meen it thank you )

Secondly i do not have hidden motives or agendas, i like to play EvE and despite what sometimes may look like i do want this comunity and game to prosper.

The reason i used this thread was simly well, not to spam the forus with another thread stating more or less the same, i think i wouldn't have gone with the "CSM should go down quietly" but instead with more in the line of "Clarify us , prove us, discuss CSM results ... " or something of the kind.

So my thoughts on the matter, yes i agree we should give an oportunity to this new concept, if it was created to help and improve the comunity well fine by me lets give it a try and work on the parts that need to be improved in order to make the Council better for all.

Again Jade my thanks for your time.

NoNameNewbie
Caldari
Raynor Heavy Industries
Posted - 2008.05.31 09:11:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1
Ok after checking first page, its still the same ideas. When ccp is going to fix it cause some ppl that have been elected by their posse or jerk crew iam as a normal cuistomer that tried to bring things forward and brought some ideas ask myself am i less worth then anyone with a forum hype, is going to be pretty disapointed about ccp handles things.

In general this forum is Ideas MK2, same ppl, same ideas same discussions. There is tons of good ideas in the ideas section why not simply hire someone in iceland who gets 10 per hour to read forums. I guess tons of ppl would apply to such a job.


this !

Every Issue i've seen in here is like hey i copied the ideas selection to here just because we have a voting option.
Mining sucks lets post on CSM, pvp sucks lets post on CSM, ...

Ma Eies
Posted - 2008.06.01 03:01:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Ma Eies on 01/06/2008 03:06:20
I agree, if they put the voting/support aspect in an ideas/issues forum that would be awesome, but the CSM serves no unique purpose just a few redundant ones

Edit:
I find it funny that if this thread gets the 5% support it needs the CSM will bring it up and then not escalate it to CCP, the system works

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.06.01 10:44:00 - [48]
 

I do not agree to this proposal.

The CSM had barely time to get started and because we do not see immidiate results the first call for stopping the CSM. I think it will take at the very least 6 month before we can really assess what good or bad the CSM did. Besides this first CSM has a harder time then any other who will follow in their steps. Becaue they have to create the rules and procedures from scratch.


A lot of people have never learned to argue, or to respond to a rational argument. Perhaps the fault is not in the CSM but in the persons who call everyone who disagree a whiner and react angrily if they cannot get their way.

Melllo champers
Posted - 2008.06.01 11:21:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Melllo champers on 01/06/2008 11:21:35
Hardly anybody is interested in the CSM. Just look at how many thumbs up the most popular topics get.

Topics get nowhere near enough votes to warrant things being an issue as per CCP rules.

CSM was supposed to be voice of the players. It isn't.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.

Posted - 2008.06.01 11:25:00 - [50]
 

Agreed.

Christy Walton
Caldari
Bloodveil
Posted - 2008.06.02 14:40:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Melllo champers
Edited by: Melllo champers on 01/06/2008 11:21:35
Hardly anybody is interested in the CSM. Just look at how many thumbs up the most popular topics get.

Topics get nowhere near enough votes to warrant things being an issue as per CCP rules.

CSM was supposed to be voice of the players. It isn't.


This.

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Give us a chance. Judge us on results. Nothing asked that I wouldn't be happy to pledge to anyone else.


I think he meant: let us travel for free,use CSM to our personal agendas and after we have done it all judge us on results.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.06.02 22:23:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Christy Walton

I think he meant: let us travel for free,use CSM to our personal agendas and after we have done it all judge us on results.


Well Christy, nobody can claim I didn't make my personal agenda pretty damn explicit in my campaign platform. Its still there on public record and you had the option to support or vote against. If you voted against then fair enough but you are going to need to appreciate the fact that your opinion is in the minority within the CSM process. I'd only advise you at this point to consider standing yourself in six months time and tell the electorate how you could do better? Fair enough?

Ma Eies
Posted - 2008.06.04 11:50:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Ma Eies on 04/06/2008 11:50:51
Edited by: Ma Eies on 04/06/2008 11:50:35
LOL it's not being said that the CSM reps (and their own agenda) are the problem, the whole concept of the CSM is being suggested as the problem. Jade you claim that Christy's opinion is in the minority of the CSM process, but the CSM was voted in by a minority of the EVE population. It's not the voice of the player base it's the voice of a minority that thinks the CSM might be able to do something, to be fair it might, but how much could it possibly do that couldn't be done by the player base on the forums.

Seems CCP has made a smart move, the CSM is now set to take the brunt of player dissatisfaction (whining) in CCPs place

Toramii
Le Moulin Rouge
Posted - 2008.06.04 12:08:00 - [54]
 

Nay

... give the CSM a chance.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp

Posted - 2008.06.04 22:43:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Inertial
CCP is capable of running EVE to the ground all on their own.


This.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.06.06 11:45:00 - [56]
 

First solution to the problem by the original poster should not be to drop CSM, it should be next time do not vote the guys you think are only bickerers.

So no support - let it run a couple of terms at least before deciding.


Aiden Bismuth
Gallente
Voortrekkers
Posted - 2008.06.06 14:23:00 - [57]
 

I joined EVE just before the end of the voting process, and was still finding my feet, so I didn't vote or have a chance to view the candidate's options.

However, I still stay we give the CSM a chance, and see what it's like after six months.

Not supported

AB


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