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blankseplocked FW is not out and already sucks!
 
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Jmanis Catharg
Caldari
Dusk Blade Logisitcals
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:25:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
FW is not out and already sucks!


The OP hasn't got a clue, and I didn't even read the thread!

K'tar Amok
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:25:00 - [32]
 

For a corp that has positive standings with several factions it is not that easy. Also for a corp that has a mix of members and is not all Amarr or all Gallente (which frankly I believe there are not hat many). Not only you may have offices on the wrong side, but a whole POS on the wrong side. Moreover, your involvement in FW may bring down your (and everyone in the corp) standings down.

Which shows that the standings should be adjusted back to their original levels after you or the corp leave the militia, pretty much like in real life. You don't see any Japanese or German companies still being screwed up because the part they took in WW2.



Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:32:00 - [33]
 

In B4 Wrangler

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:36:00 - [34]
 

This isn't so much of a 'choice' for me.

In the past, regardless of what was introduced into EVE; I have been able to take QUANT through it. Over time we have grown into an alliance, a small alliance without and political affliations, but an alliance of corps all run by members of the original QUANT.

Recombining to make a mega corp is not an option, because it would be unfair to my ceos to ask them to abdicate their rights. As executor my 'choice' is abandoning the alliance I spent two years building, or watching the possible death of my low-sec alliance as FW takes roots.

I see this as the choice between committing suicide or letting the cancer take you. Not really what I would call a fun choice.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:47:00 - [35]
 

You are missing the whole point CCP is trying to put out in their dev blogs.

If you are an established, successful corp/alliance in 0.0 then you do not need FW, you are already doing great in eves most hostile environment.

If your corp is in high sec/low sec and want a stepping stone, then FW will give it to you. If your corp is not doing so well in 0.0 then you can retreat to FW and retool your corp.

If you are on an awesome rollercoaster, why complain that you can't go on the carousel?

Ghostwarden
Posted - 2008.05.20 23:16:00 - [36]
 

Man.....where to start.

1. It a FREEKIN free expansion!

2. Everyone complains about how CCP puts out a product thats broken, and now they are trying to implement a system that could really reinvigorate the game in a slow and controled manner (a smart move in my opinion) and people are STILL bit*$&^% !!

3. This is the perfect time for small alliances to look at where they are and decide where they woud like to go.

4. No one is being forced to do anything. FW is just another element of the game. If you want to play it you will have to make some changes, yes. If you dont want to make those changes you dont have to.

5. If you want to give it a try just set up an alt as a place holder for the current corp and make a new one to give it a try. You can even get all your friends to come along! If you dont like it your old corp is still there waiting to go. WOW!!!! What a crazy idea that is!

So.....until the expansion is out and we can see how things work, FFS quit the bitc%^&*!

Ghost

Syniztur
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.05.20 23:57:00 - [37]
 

OP<Troll
He's obviously too stupid to be a Troll. At least a Troll has a purpose. Just go play in traffic or something.
It's idiots like you that waste precious forums space.

"I've been playing for not very long and I obviously know everything about the entire mechanics of the system and I should be heard by DEVS and this change made for me..."
Really... where are you idiots born at? Are you grown in a lab or something?

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.05.21 00:00:00 - [38]
 

Lmao @ havohej claiming he's being held at gunpoint by ruthless sickos and forced to play nullsec POS wars all day.

Don't worry man, I'ma send a helicopter! Cool

Fanjita
Posted - 2008.05.21 00:04:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
sorry but not everyone can just join an allaince. ]

don't tell me they can, they can't you need to have so much SP you need friends, connections.

thus many expansions have left out aq lot of players. such as cap ships leaving out newer players.

This expansion just happens to say instead of

"you've only been player for 1 year sorry you can't use this expansion"

or

"sorry your computer isn't good enough, you can't use the graphics update"

now it's

"you've been playing too long you can't use this expansion"

however unlike the 1st two you CAN use FW, in fact FW is one of the easist expansion to get into ever. it's not heat with a SP reqirement, a new ship, new space, whatever, for once all you have to do is make a choice.

so in fact FW is the easiest to get into.


If you have no clue what your talking about how about not saying anything?

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.05.21 01:56:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Someone needs to explain how being in the newly-labeled "end game" of EVE rewards us with being left out of a whole expansion's worth of content.



I'm a bit peeved that I can't join a militia and remain in the corp I've been in for 4+years. But I'll just make an alt and have fun. Plus my clone will be cheaperRazz

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.05.21 02:04:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: MotherMoon
sorry but not everyone can just join an allaince. ]

don't tell me they can, they can't you need to have so much SP you need friends, connections.

thus many expansions have left out aq lot of players. such as cap ships leaving out newer players.

This expansion just happens to say instead of

"you've only been player for 1 year sorry you can't use this expansion"

or

"sorry your computer isn't good enough, you can't use the graphics update"

now it's

"you've been playing too long you can't use this expansion"

however unlike the 1st two you CAN use FW, in fact FW is one of the easist expansion to get into ever. it's not heat with a SP reqirement, a new ship, new space, whatever, for once all you have to do is make a choice.

so in fact FW is the easiest to get into.


SP isn't a "Join Any Alliance Now" button - there are plenty of noobs in 0.0 and lowsec.

Are YOU leaving Huang Yinglong for FW? Or is Huang Yinglong leaving FDN for FW?


huang is leaving FND, however we are not leaving union forces. meaning we will still fly in 0.0 and help the alliance and fight pirates in MH.

and no sp isn't a in button, but lo sp is not a very good in button to allaine warfare.

also noobs are almost allways referred in by current members.

you NEED sp to get into an allaince without anyone to give you a good word.
\\
however I think ranks in FW will become important for allaince warfare. a kind of "see I play eve a lot and know how to PvP"

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.05.21 02:06:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: K'tar Amok
For a corp that has positive standings with several factions it is not that easy. Also for a corp that has a mix of members and is not all Amarr or all Gallente (which frankly I believe there are not hat many). Not only you may have offices on the wrong side, but a whole POS on the wrong side. Moreover, your involvement in FW may bring down your (and everyone in the corp) standings down.

Which shows that the standings should be adjusted back to their original levels after you or the corp leave the militia, pretty much like in real life. You don't see any Japanese or German companies still being screwed up because the part they took in WW2.





you did 10 years after WW2.

but now it's far past that and they have grinded their standings back.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.21 02:06:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Winterblink
Someone needs to explain how being in the newly-labeled "end game" of EVE rewards us with being left out of a whole expansion's worth of content.



I'm a bit peeved that I can't join a militia and remain in the corp I've been in for 4+years. But I'll just make an alt and have fun. Plus my clone will be cheaperRazz


This is actually a good idea as most of the sites I've run only take T1 cruisers and T2 frigs and lower. Then you can go all RP on your FW charecter.

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2008.05.21 04:18:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Quelque Chose
Lmao @ havohej claiming he's being held at gunpoint by ruthless sickos and forced to play nullsec POS wars all day.

Don't worry man, I'ma send a helicopter! Cool


We don't do POS wars. Everybody in 0.0 isn't a capital blobbing, POS killing "super" power... Obviously, I didn't say anything about it. What I did say is that, similar to the situation QUANT finds itself in, we're presented with the choice of "Turn your back on everything you've been doing the whole time you've been playing in order to be see the new content or... oh wait, that's your only choice."

It's good than a Huang Yinglong is able to leave FDN and have FDN's strength bull everybody else in Great Wildlands into setting their corp blue directly and letting them have FW AND 0.0 - every corp in every alliance isn't going to have that opportunity. For example, a corporation like mine won't have the option of leaving DEFY and having DEFY, UNL, TCF, CDSI, FTZ and N-H all set us blue so that we can continue to operate as we have been. Again, it's great that Huang Yinglong has that option, but MOST people won't.

Someone said "why does 0.0 alliances care about it" - they don't. Individuals, however, do and the point here is many individuals are going to have to either throw away everything they're already into in order to take a chance on something that may or may not be fun, or they're going to have to just not be able to try it at all, 'cause I tell ya this much for sure: my corp is not the only corp who will refuse to re-accept members who leave us for FW.

The point of this thread isn't and never has been about letting alliances in, it's been about individual players. Unless I just completely misread the OP. Wink

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.05.21 05:46:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Quelque Chose on 21/05/2008 05:46:58
Originally by: Havohej
stuff.


OK, man. The point is, you were just castigating the guys who rightly pointed out that there have been numerous expansion features that "weren't for them" by saying, "but but it's your CHOICE!" Same thing here, pal. If you're in an alliance you can still CHOOSE to participate, and the only thing that's put you where you are is a set of CHOICES you made.

"But it's a HARD choice!" Well, duh. I could move to 0.0 but I'd have to give up the work I've put in on my Empire corp and the infrastructure I've developed there and move out to the middle of nowhere in the company of strangers. Similarly, I could stay in Empire and do the FW thing, but I'd have to give up a lot of the cross- border operations that so far have been my bread and butter -- AND probably ditch my corp.

Are those my only choices? No. My other option is to not participate in FW and keep on doing what I've been doing. Or do something else entirely that's not FW.


OMG CCP TEH HAET ME!!!111 WHY GAWD WHYEEEEEE???!!!11


Luckily for me, I own my e- stuff and not the other way around. Sorry to hear you've managed to turn your source of digital entertainment into a prison, but hey... that's your CHOICE, isn't it? Anything you do in Eve carries an opportunity cost by virtue of the fact that there's inevitably something else you can't do simultaneously. And that's true even after this expansion whether you're a spoiled- rotten Empire- hugging carebear or a poor, mistreated spaceholding warlord. So basically you 0.0 alliance guys need to stop with the persecution complex already.

Besides, who the hell said this was the final expansion? I'm sure they'll give you guys some fine new toys next time to make up for the shameless abuse they're heaping on your poor heads this time out. I probably won't get to play with those either, but then again I probably won't give a rat's ass.

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.21 06:23:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Dani Leone on 21/05/2008 06:25:19
Originally by: Torze
If you've played Eve for any significant amount of time then you realize that Eve is about CHOICES. We can choose to be an Empire Carebear or a Nullsec alliance pvp'er. We can choose to be a pirate, miner, politician, trader, and even a whiner (just read the forums).

Factional warfare is being implented to help bring PvP content to a larger percentage of Eve. To allow people to get their feet wet. Some people will love this so much that they will just do this all the time (think battlegrounds in DAOC) others will try it and not like it. Still others will try it and think..I want to go on to bigger and better things.

If you want to take part in Factional Warfare and do not want to leave your corp...then unless your corp chooses to enter it..then you are SOL. Understand though, you are SOL not because CCP made it so but, because you chose with staying with your corp instead of checking out FW. See, choices. I'm sure if you decided to go check out FW your corpmates will understand and let you back into the corp when and or if you ever decide to. Just think of it like this. If you are in FW then really you are working for a faction and not for a PC corp anyway. You are CHOOSING your allegience.

At anyrate, I think FW is a great idea. It really does allow noobs to meet new players, get into some skirmishes, and have fun. This game is very hard on noobies, always has been. I firmly believe that Eve will be a far better game because of FW and also think that you'll see newer and competitive corps arise more frequently do to people meeting and working together in FW.


Thats the real deal here, but I don't think its as positive or easy as you suggest.
We vets have to strip away all our expectations, all our excitement at the expansion, all our desire to join or fight the factions and realise that this expansion is for and aimed at the noobs and designed to exclude those already in corps and alliances.
If vets want to take part, they are liable to have to break apart corps, alliances and friendships. In many cases throw away what we have worked for for years.
Don't even get started on the loyalist Alliances, who would have to break apart their entire logistics and CoC structures, likely lose their esprit de corps, to simply take part in an NPC led series of missions, where if they don't the cognitive dissonance of not helping their own faction in a time of war will not be something they can RP with any sort of conviction. For them this is a lose-lose scenario.

Think of the multi-ethnic corps that some people mention, this expansion is going to split a lot of them apart.
But yes, its all choices, and Eve is hard dark world, and I guess that breaking and testing loyalties would be a part of life in a time of galactic civil war. But CCP had the power to make these choices into something hard but acceptable, and choose to make them hard and on the wrong side of unacceptable. There is absolutely no reason to exclude alliances if they are then going to, as they have done, tell alliances to form alt corps and join that way. They are telling folks to circumvent their own mechanics which were designed to exclude them.

Also, I wonder that most of those players who seem to have no problem with the idea of shutting down whole alliances or simply walking out on folks you may have gamed with for years, must be the sort of corp hoppers who never feel at home anywhere and have no loyalties.
Probably they are the ones who never go on vent or ts take part in no common objectives and see their corp/alliance ticker as just a bunch of letters no better or worse than any other.
And that's a shame imho. But please don't bust the balls of the guys who do have loyalties and did want a piece of this, for them, CCP's design decisions have a very high cost indeed whether they join up or stand aside.

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.21 07:13:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/05/2008 07:17:19
Originally by: Winterblink
Someone needs to explain how being in the newly-labeled "end game" of EVE rewards us with being left out of a whole expansion's worth of content.




Someone needs to explain why I cannot just fly into 0.0 space and hop in a Titan {if I were trained for one} and parade it around Fountain or Delve. Hell, why can't I just bring it to Empire and dock it?

OMG!!!....I am being left out of some content that an expansion brought!!!!!

Or....instead of whining like a little girl, I could quit what I am doing in Empire, join a 0.0 alliance and experience new and different types of EvE's content and maybe even fly that Titan someday.

But...but....that would mean I have to make a choice and change how and where I play the game. Rolling Eyes

As a paying customer, I feel that all of EvE's content should be served to me on a silver platter. After all, it is only about what I want. Not what is best for the game or a different segment of the player base than the one I am in.

Never mind that the expansions in this game are free. I am entitled to be catered to since everything is about me me me!!!!!!!!!


Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.21 07:14:00 - [48]
 

Oh and you aren't being left out of the entire expansion. You can still fly the new Amarr frig. Razz

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.21 08:00:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Hasak Rain
Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/05/2008 07:17:19
Originally by: Winterblink
Someone needs to explain how being in the newly-labeled "end game" of EVE rewards us with being left out of a whole expansion's worth of content.




Someone needs to explain why I cannot just fly into 0.0 space and hop in a Titan {if I were trained for one} and parade it around Fountain or Delve. Hell, why can't I just bring it to Empire and dock it?

OMG!!!....I am being left out of some content that an expansion brought!!!!!

Or....instead of whining like a little girl, I could quit what I am doing in Empire, join a 0.0 alliance and experience new and different types of EvE's content and maybe even fly that Titan someday.

But...but....that would mean I have to make a choice and change how and where I play the game. Rolling Eyes

As a paying customer, I feel that all of EvE's content should be served to me on a silver platter. After all, it is only about what I want. Not what is best for the game or a different segment of the player base than the one I am in.

Never mind that the expansions in this game are free. I am entitled to be catered to since everything is about me me me!!!!!!!!!




Oddly enough, thats a bad analogy, you don't have to go to 0.0 or join a big alliance to own a Titan.

Supposing you had the determination and drive to do so, you could instead build up your wallet to obscene amounts and then, with Chribba as broker, buy a Titan to be delivered in Lo-Sec, that you could then fly around in Empire space under the banner of a NPC noob corp without ever having seen 0.0
But you wouldn't be able to dock it, because nobody can, so please don't feel left out there :P

However, what you ask is all in the realms of the possible, even for a noob for whom the Titan is just some legendary ship he has only ever heard awed whispers about. And along the way to owning that Titan the noob would only gain.

Unlike the folks here who would like to have some of the FW action, but would have to lose things that might mean a great deal to them to do so. FW asks them to make a serious retrograde step in their development of their characters and Alliances/corporations.

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.21 08:20:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Dani Leone
Originally by: Hasak Rain
Edited by: Hasak Rain on 21/05/2008 07:17:19
Originally by: Winterblink
Someone needs to explain how being in the newly-labeled "end game" of EVE rewards us with being left out of a whole expansion's worth of content.




Someone needs to explain why I cannot just fly into 0.0 space and hop in a Titan {if I were trained for one} and parade it around Fountain or Delve. Hell, why can't I just bring it to Empire and dock it?

OMG!!!....I am being left out of some content that an expansion brought!!!!!

Or....instead of whining like a little girl, I could quit what I am doing in Empire, join a 0.0 alliance and experience new and different types of EvE's content and maybe even fly that Titan someday.

But...but....that would mean I have to make a choice and change how and where I play the game. Rolling Eyes

As a paying customer, I feel that all of EvE's content should be served to me on a silver platter. After all, it is only about what I want. Not what is best for the game or a different segment of the player base than the one I am in.

Never mind that the expansions in this game are free. I am entitled to be catered to since everything is about me me me!!!!!!!!!




Oddly enough, thats a bad analogy, you don't have to go to 0.0 or join a big alliance to own a Titan.

Supposing you had the determination and drive to do so, you could instead build up your wallet to obscene amounts and then, with Chribba as broker, buy a Titan to be delivered in Lo-Sec, that you could then fly around in Empire space under the banner of a NPC noob corp without ever having seen 0.0
But you wouldn't be able to dock it, because nobody can, so please don't feel left out there :P

However, what you ask is all in the realms of the possible, even for a noob for whom the Titan is just some legendary ship he has only ever heard awed whispers about. And along the way to owning that Titan the noob would only gain.

Unlike the folks here who would like to have some of the FW action, but would have to lose things that might mean a great deal to them to do so. FW asks them to make a serious retrograde step in their development of their characters and Alliances/corporations.


Okay but you got my point though right? Razz

I know that you cannot literly dock a Titan. I guess I should have said "logged it in empire." I admit that i don't know that much about them but then again, that sort of goes along with my point. This is the type of game where if you play one way, you may be locked out of some content but also have access to content someone else doesn't have. People need to deal with that reality. Large 0.0 alliance players need to realize the entire game is not about them only.

Another thing: I noticed these whine threads popping up all over the place but not once have I read anyone give a good suggestion or solution to the obvious problem of how to keep the big alliances from dominating FW. {if they were to get their way and be allowed to participate.} All I am reading is "give me, give me!"

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.21 08:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Hasak Rain


Okay but you got my point though right? Razz

I know that you cannot literly dock a Titan. I guess I should have said "logged it in empire." I admit that i don't know that much about them but then again, that sort of goes along with my point. This is the type of game where if you play one way, you may be locked out of some content but also have access to content someone else doesn't have. People need to deal with that reality. Large 0.0 alliance players need to realize the entire game is not about them only.

Another thing: I noticed these whine threads popping up all over the place but not once have I read anyone give a good suggestion or solution to the obvious problem of how to keep the big alliances from dominating FW. {if they were to get their way and be allowed to participate.} All I am reading is "give me, give me!"


Lol yes, I got your point, and I am sure you get mine, its not that I think people shouldn't be asked to make choices, its that in this case I don't think those choices are the right ones to be asking people to make.

And sure I think that its possible that the Alliances could dominate FW, but what is being proposed by CCP: Alt corps stuffed with Alliance alts, is no different than simply allowing alliances into FW in the first place and so doesn't solve the problem that they created by excluding them.

As for preventing the big alliances dominating FW, I assume you mean something like several big 0.0 Alliances signing up for Caldari and whipping the disorganized Gallente noob hordes? I think its self balancing really, if big alliances were to join up en-masse and fight in empire, then other alliances would relish the opportunity to join the opposing faction so that they could get a shot at the big guys sans cyno jammers and jump bridges.
And please realise that a lot of Alliances have no 0.0/Sov ambitions at all.

If anything, an iteration of FW that allowed Alliances would promise apocalyptic battles of huge size in Empire space, burning carriers and dreadnoughts wrecks everywhere.

New players would get the opportunity to join forces with the most hardened vets in the game, taking part in the sort of fleet fights previously reserved for deep 0.0 and that surely cannot be bad, can it?

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.21 08:54:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Dani Leone
Originally by: Hasak Rain


Okay but you got my point though right? Razz

I know that you cannot literly dock a Titan. I guess I should have said "logged it in empire." I admit that i don't know that much about them but then again, that sort of goes along with my point. This is the type of game where if you play one way, you may be locked out of some content but also have access to content someone else doesn't have. People need to deal with that reality. Large 0.0 alliance players need to realize the entire game is not about them only.

Another thing: I noticed these whine threads popping up all over the place but not once have I read anyone give a good suggestion or solution to the obvious problem of how to keep the big alliances from dominating FW. {if they were to get their way and be allowed to participate.} All I am reading is "give me, give me!"


Lol yes, I got your point, and I am sure you get mine, its not that I think people shouldn't be asked to make choices, its that in this case I don't think those choices are the right ones to be asking people to make.

And sure I think that its possible that the Alliances could dominate FW, but what is being proposed by CCP: Alt corps stuffed with Alliance alts, is no different than simply allowing alliances into FW in the first place and so doesn't solve the problem that they created by excluding them.

As for preventing the big alliances dominating FW, I assume you mean something like several big 0.0 Alliances signing up for Caldari and whipping the disorganized Gallente noob hordes? I think its self balancing really, if big alliances were to join up en-masse and fight in empire, then other alliances would relish the opportunity to join the opposing faction so that they could get a shot at the big guys sans cyno jammers and jump bridges.
And please realise that a lot of Alliances have no 0.0/Sov ambitions at all.

If anything, an iteration of FW that allowed Alliances would promise apocalyptic battles of huge size in Empire space, burning carriers and dreadnoughts wrecks everywhere.

New players would get the opportunity to join forces with the most hardened vets in the game, taking part in the sort of fleet fights previously reserved for deep 0.0 and that surely cannot be bad, can it?


The thing is, if FW is suppose to be a "bridge" to get new players and others who never experienced 0.0 life into PvP, I don't think their first lesson should be huge Alliance style blob wars.

Granted, there is a good chance that FW will produce some very large blobs/gatecamps anyway but why allow it to be worse than it needs to be?

Another problem is Alliances will want to stick with "their own" and not want to fight along side a bunch of pvp noobs in their miltias. It may end up that way anyway if a lot of single corps join but i think CCP wants to keep that sort of elitism to a minimum in FW.

Think of it this way: Do you want Empire carebears flying into your Alliance space mining your roids and ratting in your systems? Players who you don't even know? You won't be able to kill them because we would all be on the same team right? Laughing

I agree that the choice that CCP is giving is crappy. However, the 0.0 guys will just use their alts for FW and participate anyway. Most of them already have alts in Empire mining and running lvl 4's as it is. I keep getting told on here that most of the players participating in "Red versus Blue" are 0.0 alts so what is the difference?

Dihania
Gallente
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.21 08:57:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: K'tar Amok
... I can't read and udnerstand the dev blog...


What a total fail.
Go hide now...

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2008.05.21 09:18:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Dani Leone

Lol yes, I got your point, and I am sure you get mine, its not that I think people shouldn't be asked to make choices, its that in this case I don't think those choices are the right ones to be asking people to make.

And sure I think that its possible that the Alliances could dominate FW, but what is being proposed by CCP: Alt corps stuffed with Alliance alts, is no different than simply allowing alliances into FW in the first place and so doesn't solve the problem that they created by excluding them.

As for preventing the big alliances dominating FW, I assume you mean something like several big 0.0 Alliances signing up for Caldari and whipping the disorganized Gallente noob hordes? I think its self balancing really, if big alliances were to join up en-masse and fight in empire, then other alliances would relish the opportunity to join the opposing faction so that they could get a shot at the big guys sans cyno jammers and jump bridges.
And please realise that a lot of Alliances have no 0.0/Sov ambitions at all.

If anything, an iteration of FW that allowed Alliances would promise apocalyptic battles of huge size in Empire space, burning carriers and dreadnoughts wrecks everywhere.

New players would get the opportunity to join forces with the most hardened vets in the game, taking part in the sort of fleet fights previously reserved for deep 0.0 and that surely cannot be bad, can it?


I think you have a very romantic view of the current state of the EVE universe. Let's exclude for now the technical difficulties that the DEVs have stated in the latest blog.

And please tell me which 0.0 alliance would accept an unknown (or more than one) noob or not so noob but still an empire or lowsec dweller, within their ranks while trying to assemble a small force to complete an objective. None and that is the only truth.

And that in essence means that if the big alliances would be allowed to participate in FW they would exclude de facto all the new players and small corps (like mine) from these opportunities to gain some experience.

Any 0.0 alliance that is holding no space, can easily disband and join. As you may know corps are allowed to participate as corps. If there are people within the corp that would like to fight for other factions, i guess that would be a problem even if alliances were allowed to join.

The only alliances that get the shaft here are the Role Playing ones (like the one i am in now and the previous one i was in).

As for capitals i can safely say that it's not something only 0.0 alliances have. And i am pretty sure that new players will get their chance to fight alongside or against capitals vessels.

gavhriel
Amarr
Jotunheimr Productions Ltd.
Talos Coalition
Posted - 2008.05.21 09:40:00 - [55]
 

I have a very strong feeling that the majority of online players at any give time is in npc corporations :)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.21 09:51:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/05/2008 09:52:05
Originally by: Hasak Rain
Originally by: Dani Leone


If anything, an iteration of FW that allowed Alliances would promise apocalyptic battles of huge size in Empire space, burning carriers and dreadnoughts wrecks everywhere.

New players would get the opportunity to join forces with the most hardened vets in the game, taking part in the sort of fleet fights previously reserved for deep 0.0 and that surely cannot be bad, can it?

...

Another problem is Alliances will want to stick with "their own" and not want to fight along side a bunch of pvp noobs in their miltias. It may end up that way anyway if a lot of single corps join but i think CCP wants to keep that sort of elitism to a minimum in FW.

Think of it this way: Do you want Empire carebears flying into your Alliance space mining your roids and ratting in your systems? Players who you don't even know? You won't be able to kill them because we would all be on the same team right? Laughing



An problem evidenced by this posts and that no one of the "alliances shoud be allowed to join" guys (and gals) seem to have considered is that all the member of the militia (and the allied empire militia) will be blue for them.

You really want to have some "random" corp/guy as blue and with hefty penalityes in standing (and so in the possibility to continue to be in the militia) if you destroy his ship or pod him?

You want them to come in your space as they are blue?

You want to have the militia standings interfere with your standings?


Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.21 09:53:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Hasak Rain

The thing is, if FW is suppose to be a "bridge" to get new players and others who never experienced 0.0 life into PvP, I don't think their first lesson should be huge Alliance style blob wars.

Granted, there is a good chance that FW will produce some very large blobs/gatecamps anyway but why allow it to be worse than it needs to be?

Another problem is Alliances will want to stick with "their own" and not want to fight along side a bunch of pvp noobs in their miltias. It may end up that way anyway if a lot of single corps join but i think CCP wants to keep that sort of elitism to a minimum in FW.

Think of it this way: Do you want Empire carebears flying into your Alliance space mining your roids and ratting in your systems? Players who you don't even know? You won't be able to kill them because we would all be on the same team right? Laughing

I agree that the choice that CCP is giving is crappy. However, the 0.0 guys will just use their alts for FW and participate anyway. Most of them already have alts in Empire mining and running lvl 4's as it is. I keep getting told on here that most of the players participating in "Red versus Blue" are 0.0 alts so what is the difference?


I keep hearing the wont allow noobs/others etc but out in 0.0 ( I live pretty much permanently in Syndicate ) I gang with all sorts of folks to achieve various objectives.
Even on a very odd occasion or two, folks I have standings set at -10 Red and would otherwise be hunting down to kill.

My problem here is that all we seem to be saying is exclude the 'Flags' of the big alliances but let them fight anyway through alts and shell corporations formed for that purpose.

I dont see the point in this, I understand that their are certain limitations in the mechanics, but from reading dev comments and blogs, it seems that CCP have chosen not to solve these at the present time, not that they couldn't solve them.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

I think you have a very romantic view of the current state of the EVE universe. Let's exclude for now the technical difficulties that the DEVs have stated in the latest blog.

And please tell me which 0.0 alliance would accept an unknown (or more than one) noob or not so noob but still an empire or lowsec dweller, within their ranks while trying to assemble a small force to complete an objective. None and that is the only truth.

And that in essence means that if the big alliances would be allowed to participate in FW they would exclude de facto all the new players and small corps (like mine) from these opportunities to gain some experience.

Any 0.0 alliance that is holding no space, can easily disband and join. As you may know corps are allowed to participate as corps. If there are people within the corp that would like to fight for other factions, i guess that would be a problem even if alliances were allowed to join.

The only alliances that get the shaft here are the Role Playing ones (like the one i am in now and the previous one i was in).

As for capitals i can safely say that it's not something only 0.0 alliances have. And i am pretty sure that new players will get their chance to fight alongside or against capitals vessels.


Well, I have answered a few of your points above. Mine would for example accept a few noobs in, and I'd gang with a few. (I might come to regret it mind you, but thats a different thing altogether :P )

So romantic or not I really think that you are assuming that point, from my experience of 0.0 warfare, even the big boys will allow squads made up of non corp alliance members in their ranks to fight.

Yes they might want to be sure they could trust them but I dont think they would automatically exclude them.

Infact on the occasion of a major pitched battle I suspect they would positively welcome the extra resources to be put at their command, and new players could only gain from being under the command of elite vets imho.

Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2008.05.21 10:08:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Dani Leone on 21/05/2008 10:09:42
Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

And that in essence means that if the big alliances would be allowed to participate in FW they would exclude de facto all the new players and small corps (like mine) from these opportunities to gain some experience.

Any 0.0 alliance that is holding no space, can easily disband and join. As you may know corps are allowed to participate as corps. If there are people within the corp that would like to fight for other factions, i guess that would be a problem even if alliances were allowed to join.

The only alliances that get the shaft here are the Role Playing ones (like the one i am in now and the previous one i was in).

As for capitals i can safely say that it's not something only 0.0 alliances have. And i am pretty sure that new players will get their chance to fight alongside or against capitals vessels.


Why would it exclude small corps and alliances? If anything it would give them incentives to make new friends and allies.

And I humbly disagree that *only* RP alliances get the shaft. There could easily be members of BOB, Goons etc who have great pride in their Alliances and achievements and would like to bring their esprit de corps to Faction Warfare, but would not seriously consider breaking their alliance apart so that they could join their individual corps to the Faction militias.
I recognize that there are unique issues here for the RP alliances, look a few posts up and you'll see me say similar things but to a lesser scale they affect the other alliances as well.

And yes, I know that it isn't just the big boys who have caps, but they do have them in such numbers that, if allowed in, there would be a lot more epic fights, last ditch stands where everything is thrown in.
It would also give the little guy the opportunity to see and join in with these huge fleet battles, put themselves up against some of the best combat pilots in eve (yes probably get squished by a blob also) and learn by seeing what the cutting edge tactics are by suffering them or taking part in executing them.

Arlenna Molatov
Caldari
Domination Heavy Industries
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.05.21 10:10:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: K'tar Amok
Edited by: K''tar Amok on 20/05/2008 17:19:00
I can't believe what I've been reading about FW and how it is going to work.

I've been playing EVE for less than a year and all this time I've heard and read that EVE is an MMO, that you should join a corp instead of going solo because that's how EVE is at its best. Well, I finally joined a corp and now that the new expansion comes out it turn I can not take part of FW because i am in a frigging corp!! Mad

What an idiotic decision was to implement FW in such a way that the vast majority of the people it is aimed at (those in empire high-sec who have not yet tried PvP) can not take part of it without leaving the corp they are in!!

The worst part is that CCP feels comfortable because they validated this with 20 alliance hardcore players in last year's fan fest. Well, you asked the wrong people about it!!

How hard could it be to allow alliance and corps take part that are not claiming sovereignty in 0.0?

How coooool it would have been to be able to join with the guys you play day in and day out a little skirmish for your faction!

I still can't believe how you could screw it up this big! Crying or Very sad


When will you be quitting? and putting your stuff up for auction? This game isn't for babies.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2008.05.21 10:28:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dani Leone

......
I keep hearing the wont allow noobs/others etc but out in 0.0 ( I live pretty much permanently in Syndicate ) I gang with all sorts of folks to achieve various objectives.
Even on a very odd occasion or two, folks I have standings set at -10 Red and would otherwise be hunting down to kill.

My problem here is that all we seem to be saying is exclude the 'Flags' of the big alliances but let them fight anyway through alts and shell corporations formed for that purpose.


Since you live pretty much in 0.0, you would know that basically people you don't know, you can't trust and more or less if you team up with them is because someone has to be the cannon fodder or let's put it more eloquently as distraction for enemy fire.

The people you said you have teamed up with, even if they were -10 standings, were people you knew and know. Not as a teammate but surely known enemy and maybe even respected for the abilities he/she has.

Originally by: Dani Leone

I dont see the point in this, I understand that their are certain limitations in the mechanics, but from reading dev comments and blogs, it seems that CCP have chosen not to solve these at the present time, not that they couldn't solve them.

....

Well, I have answered a few of your points above. Mine would for example accept a few noobs in, and I'd gang with a few. (I might come to regret it mind you, but thats a different thing altogether :P )

So romantic or not I really think that you are assuming that point, from my experience of 0.0 warfare, even the big boys will allow squads made up of non corp alliance members in their ranks to fight.

Yes they might want to be sure they could trust them but I dont think they would automatically exclude them.

Infact on the occasion of a major pitched battle I suspect they would positively welcome the extra resources to be put at their command, and new players could only gain from being under the command of elite vets imho.


I am suspecting that you are either deliberately trying to generalize your case, or are simply way too romantic.
There are many 0.0 alliances members simply look down upon the empire residents. I am pretty sure that this won't change because FW came into scene.

And if you think that this FW will be about big fleets and all that, i would suggest you re-read the blogs and notice that they are emphasizing on the small scale warfare aspect, and not the huge fleet warfare reality of 0.0.

My take on this is that they are indeed willingly avoid to resolve the mechanic limitations for alliances to participate in that, but not for an obscure reason that only a conspiracy theory can reveal.

They want to avoid over sized fleets forming. Fleets that would be consisted by one or at most two alliances and some random guys. Not that they may not happen, but now their solution tries to minimize the risk of one or two alliances doing it. It will have to take a co operation of many corps/people who don't necessarily belong to the same alliance.

As i said RP alliances get the shaft mainly, since this decision excludes them from the purpose they were formed in the first place. 0.0 alliances were built for other purposes and these purposes have nothing to do with Factional Warfare.
Still despite the bitterness you may see in the posts of members of RP alliances, they all agree that is a necessity that will help instead of hinder the bigger picture.


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