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TWD
Minmatar
Evolution
KenZoku
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:00:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: ardik
Woah, hold up there, are you, dA mAsTaH tactician twd, telling us that cyno jammers + supercapitals makes for boring, one-sided fights that no one wants to enter?

I disagree, multiple doomsdays everywhere you go always makes great fights, but nice to see some out of the box thinking i guess.


I like those kind words, appreciate it.

I'm missing the part where I mention something about cyno jammers + supercapitals. I don't?

Also, while taking down cynojammers can be a very difficult thing to do, especially for smaller alliances and against very good jammer setups we havn't failed taking down a jammer for the systems we wanted to take since the Delve defense started.

Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:08:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: TWD
Edited by: TWD on 15/05/2008 03:15:42
Serious question!

The end game for alliances in 0.0 from the blowing ships up perspective is pretty much the big capital fights, and killing titans and motherships (although motherships are becoming less special). All the titan kills and most of the mothership kills happen because the opportunity presented itself a moment before, and are not planned beforehand. There needs to be a situation where 2 or more groups of people who are using the capitals are close to eachother for these opportunities to exist. There also needs to be something to fight over/for. Grudge, revenge, for targets, resources, space, w/e.

Currently, the 3 "biggest" groups of people are 1) the people in the North - rzr/mm/etc/etc, 2) the people in the South East - tcf/ra/gs/etc/etc and 3) BoB and allies. There are also some other strong groups, but not as big. These 3 groups seem pretty stable.

After the "Great War" I very much doubt there will be any invasion of that scale in the Delve area again, at least for a LONG time. The biggest groups of people are pretty far away from eachother, they cannot commit to fighting eachother for a long time because they know that the "away" team will lose interest over time. There will need to be something radically different for this picture to change. The biggest groups will be mostly fighting much smaller groups (as long as they're closeby) in the meantime, who are less likely to give the big capital fights/titan kills (although titans are becoming alot less rare). Not saying there won't be any conflicts, but nothing on the very big scale as we've seen in the last year. Of course I could be wrong. ^_^

What do you think? (does this make any sense?) (and any serious comments? ;)


You are forgetting the fact that in East - drone regions, there is a conflict that will end up in ppl losing space and ppl winning space, which will lead to the emergence of another force. A force with the ability to replace caps at very low cost and at great speed.

However, unless game mechanics relating to sov/caps don't get nerfed, there will indeed be a period of stagnation. Stagnation in terms of the existence of these blocks of power, not in the sense alliances dying away, as they could always just gank up on a weaker alliance should complete boredom appear.

JS LiamElms
Gallente
Zor Industries
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:18:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: JS LiamElms on 15/05/2008 12:24:07
For me not being a vet in this game... i may see it in a different light. Maybe some of you have just seen too many wars and are in unfamilar grounds....

Its been a interesting 1 and 6months (ish for me).. from a noob, to joining a 0.0 alliance. Then making my first major move from one alliance to another. Fighting GBC, fighting small scale roaming gangs, fighting in the recent Northern war..... and just last night i even tried a little ratting, and pos installation.

But this is the point for new players.... i don't believe you should be able to jump into eve and become a major alliance leader or even a small 'worth while alliance leader' till you have played in many of the wars.. gained the experiance you need. For the newer players (i still concider myself in the new player stage) you have SO much to learn and experiance.

New guys are coming through all the time... I fly with a very good set of guys, some old vets, some the same age as my char... and everyone is at different stages in the progression of becoming a major player, both new and old. I do notice a lot of the older guys getting to that point now of 'need more action', but then its up to you to create some for yourself. To TWD, that i don't know, i don't have him on my MSN buddies :P but you are a well known bob pilot to me (being only a 1yrs in 0.0 and so still learning the histories behind the major differences and actions of one anothers alliance) why not club your likeminded friends into a new alliance and move to a new place....

Since been in IAC, I was there when a group of guys formed a break away alliance. It happens through new players turning to well known players.. this all takes time and experiance... as with rl, some people create a business as soon as they finish school, some go into established companies and take over, some gain the experiance they need from a company to build there own company.

Pos/Supercaps/Cyno Jams are crummy, but its not stopping the rest of eve to continue to build.

you old boys prob need to get back into your ceptors and start enjoying the frig life again.... and make new connections rather than sitting all day in IRC chatting to the same fluffy old fools that are tired of being top of the tree... the end is near for you i feal TWD (not a threat just looking at the signs in your post, but i don't know you so could be very wrong indeed)... and i am sure you made your mark!

in the mean time, i'll keep meeting new people along the way to my end game completion screen

great post though... and i am sure i must have hit my head this morning!!

edit: cause i stink at typing...

Glassback
Minmatar
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:20:00 - [64]
 

In a successful corp/alliance there there is ONLY one thing that makes a difference and thats the person/people leading it. If they decide to stop playing, things will soon change.

Look into the history of 0.0 and there have been many many alliances that have fallen/changed/whatever.

Tri have disbanded recently not because someone shot them, but because of internal issues.

The current "stagnation" has lasted for about 10mins do far so lets not get too worried, something will turn up.

G.

Popperr
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:22:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Popperr on 15/05/2008 12:23:00
Originally by: TWD


I like those kind words, appreciate it.

I'm missing the part where I mention something about cyno jammers + supercapitals. I don't?

Also, while taking down cynojammers can be a very difficult thing to do, especially for smaller alliances and against very good jammer setups we havn't failed taking down a jammer for the systems we wanted to take since the Delve defense started.



Yes, if everyone played like bob there'd be no problem.

Veldya
Caldari
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:27:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Miklas Laces
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 15/05/2008 11:54:54
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 15/05/2008 11:54:34
The "coalitions" are too strong, they take all the space even if they don't use it. As a result we have entire regions whose only use is moon-mining, jump bridges and buffer zone, but they are mostly uninhabited. Hell I have never seen most of our outposts ugh

With jump-portals, jump-bridges and jump-freighters logistics are too easy and you can keep your pos network up with minimal effort (comparing to the past), even in regions you don't live in.

CCP should put a limit to coalitions and make logistics a bit harder: 0.0 regions should be places where alliances live in, not buffer zones or moon exploiting space.

edit: spelling


The problem is 80% of conquerable space is garbage (excluding moons), it is marginally better than low-sec. Low numbers of belts, ****house rocks, ****house rats. Most regions probably have a handful of systems worth holding, excluding moons.

NPC space is the most lucrative space and you can hold a small portion of an NPC region and be better off than an alliance that is holding an entire region of conquerable space.

I think the biggest problem is that EVE is very static. I can look at a 2 year old database and it will still be spot on as to what is where in the various systems.

Belts should not be static. They should appear in different places, have different rock composition, real security ratings should fluctuate based on how much the NPCs are obliterated and the relative wealth in the region (ie how much it has been strip mined). Would the Serpentis heirachy really keep sending fleets of their best battleships into systems that have nothing but Veldsparr left in them?

Exploration should be a BIG part of every day life for everyone. Leave common ores in static locations but the rest of space needs to breathe, be alive and react to how players interact with it. While space is predictable then people will do predictable things.

Ghaelsto Kakram
Minmatar
Mindgamers
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:34:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Jebidus Skari
Ermm watch out for Deklein

Do you mean Bob taking more space because they really like to have 'good fights' at their doorstep?

Saloris Nighthawke
Caldari
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:39:00 - [68]
 

I was thinking about the ways that the game could become more dynamic and one of the things that struck me as odd is the following:

Looking at the Eve universe, I am bothered by something and a post earlier in this thread touched on it.
Nothing moves. Planets, moons etc. We all know irl that celestial objects rotate, why not in Eve?

Think about moons moving in systems, systems moving in regions etc. Gates would change from time to time as things go in and out of alignment.

This would rework the entire logistical set-up we are so used too. It would make it dynamic and adjusting and adapting to the changes in routes would require more teamwork and coordination.

I don't want to ramble and make a wot so I will stop at this.


Thoughts?


Tordox
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:42:00 - [69]
 

*snip* Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings.-Navigator(mods@ccpgames.com)

Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:46:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: TWD

Also, while taking down cynojammers can be a very difficult thing to do, especially for smaller alliances and against very good jammer setups we havn't failed taking down a jammer for the systems we wanted to take since the Delve defense started.


The only working strategy is to wait until defenders tire themselves out, in this case by having them be on the offensive the majority of the time. If the other side gets bored and leaves or only offers token resistance, you can indeed take down their cynojammers.

A somewhat reasonably defended cynojammer will currently stall an entire offensive though. There is no incentive to go attack anyone remotely competent because it is the equivalent to morale suicide.

We too have taken down more than 40-odd station systems worth of cynojammers since their inception, probably significantly more than you have actually. Still saying nobody wants to fight because those things and capitals make the game suck really hard.

Sionide
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.15 12:54:00 - [71]
 

After such a big war, most alliances are going to go back to rebuilding and probably do not want to get involved in anything of that size for a while. They will build and muscle around smaller alliances around their area.

With the upcoming expansion, those that really hunger for blood will partake in the faction wars, making it even less likely that a group of alliances will merge to take on the big alliances in 0.0, giving them even more time and room to grow and strengthen.

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:03:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
Good Post



Agree with most of this how ever removing instas or warp to zero will throw ppl back 2 years ago and they wont just move it since u forget there is a time factor , for instance if i only have 1 hour to play and it will take like 2 hours to even reach destination or look for a fight why would i even bother logging on ? If you deploy for speed to travel 30 jumps to reach a target system and find the defenders deploying xxx amount of bs + carriers + titan or 2 ? Pretty much nothing you can do , unless hope they are really incompetent and you can nail as much as you can from em.

Problem is consolidated space and new sov system + super caps and bridges is that it takes too much time to set and once it is set the defenders are well trenched in , what remains is either countering nano gangs or just stay docked up in case of any minor threat. If the threat is bigger and turns to an invasion then its blob vs blob and quite frankly that doesn't interest any one what so ever coz its purely a dice roll on who gets less lag.

Caps and super caps are considered the end game toys to buy but recently they are not that big of a deal since most big alliances are popping them out like candy , easy to see a 100 man cap fleet in any big fight these days how ever what will make ppl deploy them unless it is an invasion or a defense and not to mention how entrenched they will be ?


Wait for the game to evolve? depends on what it will evolve too since the last streak of development is no where near promising that things will change and factional warfare will not change the idea of blobbing what so ever , same **** diff way to present it.


The game needs limits , limits on how many super caps or how big of a blob u can make and not just a gm that logs on to cap a system but game mechanics it self , something like stacking penalties , Same goes to bridges which makes anyone who uses that stuff is srsly penalizing them selves.


Yogos
Gallente
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:03:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Yogos on 15/05/2008 13:06:11
I agree with plp that problem is that most space in 0.0 is empty.

It is hold by powerblock by force but it is empty.

I move roaming gang from Stain in all direction and tbh only good targets around are now bobits and PMV station in Feythabolis.
I must do 30-40 jumps to try to capture ratter :(

There are roaming gangs when we move by Esoteria and all region is empty.
And there is many stations but they are empty. On local in prime time 4-6 plp. 4 got "pos operator" in title 2 are ratting alts of somebody.


Only way to make more teamplay in deep 0.0 and make deep 0.0 able for new players is to change logistic work. Now powerblocks hold station by 2-3 pos even if there is 80 moons in system. It doesn't count how much pos you need to claim but how much you are ABLE to hold. 2-3 is enough if there are only pos in system. Then someone spam pos, power block bring 80 caps and kill it :D

Solution can be like(for example): to conquer station you need to hold all constelation and to hold a system you need to cover at least 25% of moons.
When plp doing logistic hear that idea they will start screaming and cry.
When they need to hold 40 moons insteed 4 to capture station then they will quit.

Fuel for one pos is 200mln then 40 moons is 8000 mln. Its 2x promethium moon or dyspro/promethium moon with current prioces. And i belive that is statistic there is at least on or two high end moons per constelation. If you dig ice you need much less.

Or CCP can make changes in pos fuel so more fuel can be make/dig in 0.0.
But it must be done in teamplay not that one alt goes to jita buy all move afk near low sec and then jump with titan help near station. 2 men make all logistic for 2 months for a station.

And when much more plp move to deep 0.0 then there will be more fun.
Easer to make roaming/gang/ find good fight.YARRRR!!

Now you move 40 -50 jumps and kill 2-3 ships and you know that you can find opponent only in 2-3 places within 50jumps Evil or Very Mad


EDIT
ATM for alone ally i think best way to capture station is to grab this with most moons (80+) and spam 80 POS with maximum hardeners. When even 40 dreds need to shot over hour to one pos you win by boring opponent :D


Sunbird Huy
Caldari
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:05:00 - [74]
 

What EVE could use might be increase in number of regions, hell, even doubling the number of them.
As I can see the space map now, it seems empire space is surrounded with 0.0 in 4 directions. What about adding 2 more directions ABOVE and UNDER the empire space randomly connected to different empires.
Also, would be an interesting addition if there was some kind of NPC swarm, like few pirate factions forming a mega fleet and laying waste to many different regions, mostly fortified by those big coalitions of alliances, weakening them, even destroying POS's they own. Or simply allowing Jovians to delete random regions bordering their "secretive" space.
Adding randomness is one solution.
Also there is a huge number of rich industrial corps/alliances in empire, and a huge number of pirate/pvp corps/alliances, that could use some diplomacy between themselves to forge unions strong enough to start new power blocks in 0.0 ...
? did I just write all that?

William DeMeo
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:07:00 - [75]
 

Man I want the EVE gates to open so we can go to a new universe with 4 new species of humans and ships and ****. That would be cool.

Tarantelita
Minmatar
Ragna Rok Corp
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:08:00 - [76]
 

This is the most serious anwer in this thread.

About atacking other big forces far away.

It dosent matter "much", if you have very good organized logistics, good FC:s, lojal members in your corp/alliance and one very good strategy. Then atacking big targets far away is no problem.

Let me give you one example..

..close to goon space you have alot of NPC stations and if needed you could build up structurs that can help you refitt, rapair so on and so on.

My point is, BoB can push out goons from their space. Goons did not acomplish anything in delve because they are 5 lvl under BoB, alone they are nothing


Befor i go. SirMolle should slap you for almost telling to all in EVE "buhuu we cant kill other big corps/alliance, they are to far away, buhuu".

Start to mine again old man? Laughing

Twisted Evil

TroNaaR
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:09:00 - [77]
 

One possible answer to your question is the removal of NPC stations from 0.0 . Or even better, make them all conquerable.

On the other hand:

Interesting times, these. With the dissolving and splitting of some of the major alliances / superconglomorates. And with BoB no longer on the defensive, who can tell what will happen?

My view is that EvE shall burn very brightly this summer...

To Eve: Have a blast, this is internet spacehips y'all...

MATT POSSUM YALL
(wtb unban for Dastommy79, he was drunk please cut him some slack <333 )



xHomicide
Caldari
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:09:00 - [78]
 

POS warfare is so phenomenally horrible that people assumed it would be improved. Then CCP released motherships and titans. Then CCP introduced cynojammers. The average player that can't fly capitals feels insignificant and gets insta-****d by one pilot using a one-shot-weapon. The growing minority deals with this by boarding their capital ships and engages in mind-numbing completely dedicated kill or be killed warfare where the outcome of the battle is not determined by actual combat tactics but raw numbers.

Kasken
Amarr
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:20:00 - [79]
 

The main problem with "leaders" in game, is the entry barriers are ridiculous to overcome. I've been in game for about a year and 2 months (Heartcarver was my main till I bought this char off forums)

We are looking at the possibility of creating our own alliance, and looking to hold some sov. Where...?

Sure we could go strike out at Tri's recent space, along with a crapload of other alliances. We don't have an epic sized cap fleet, we don't hotdrop carriers to deal with cruisers, and we don't want a blue list longer than the corp member list. With major powerblocs, it's almost impossible to claim sov in an area that has any value whatsoever.

We recently fought for sov for a while in PB, except when you looked at the systems, the low sec next door was actually better than the 0.0 we were fighting for. Scalar was able to spend 30b+ isk to keep fighting us, and we finally got bored and left.

I don't have a problem with large alliances holding their space, they earned it, they are big enough to keep it and I don't begrudge them that. Without joining a large powerbloc though, becoming a new spaceholding alliance is incredibly difficult atm. Renting space just seems.... ghetto, I'd rather take an area and know I earned it rather than paying for it.

That's why I watched the Trisurg war with interest. I have alot of respect for Insurg basically because they said let's brawl and faced off against a major superpower. Yea they lost, but they had fun doing it. It did sort of reinforce the point that breaking into 0.0 is not the easiest thing with a ton of friends...

Sunbird Huy
Caldari
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:23:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 15/05/2008 13:25:37
Oh, cr*p, I forgot to mention I also want EVE gate opened, and some random entity other than those humans that stayed back in the old universe would appear, just as mentioned in this short story --->> THEODICY NICE READ
The Enheduani entity really put some chilling ideas in my head...brrrr...
EVE lacks one dimension, and it seems that dimension might start forming with faction warfare addition, and God knows what else comes in afterwards!

crice
Caldari
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:25:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: VoYvod
1 option: alliances need to stop being little girls and napping half of eve - more wars will occur

option 2: alliances grow some hang and stop napping everybody
option 3: enjoy eve

blobbing isn't fun - if you think it is , go buy some rope...
how to reduce blobbage : grow some hang and reduce your blue list


Well said. 5 years..... I took a break come back to RAZOR and the NAP crew, what a joke.

SwindonBadger
Gallente
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:33:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: SwindonBadger on 15/05/2008 13:42:17
In short how doess CCP think any new allaince will gain either a good exsperiance or a good fight from jumping into a camp of cyno jammer + multi titans and shed load of unmovable lagg?? How they Bell are they suposed to learn if thats what u should aspire too, lets back track a bit...
Bob pritty tight as ever and have the exsperiance of old and new as do RA and the old school notherned monkeys. I have no doubt if current mechanics where to stay as is its going to leed to a very lost eve. We in 0utbreak like to prey on those of u who have excelled in combat and burnt out ur motivators for allaince life.
Most cant handle the pressure that brings, but the ones who stick it out get some damn good fights, sometimes folks try to move on back into allaince life...... 1 day later we get this arghhh "let me back in"..... There's still alot of fun to be had but its getting really hard to find a fun fight withought a good trap. Again having a known name is making that harder (omg m0o/bob in local dock!!!!.. and its like a loan rifter) but sill what made bob good, ra ect is the fights they did way back when stuff was much more locked down by star gates and routes rather then cynos.

I dont see how an up coming allaince is going to learn anything by trying to attack a cyno jammer with fleet bs V lots of lagg (no warp before DD) and multi titans + the rest.

Our best Fcs at the time we tried to fire life into tortilla where deeling with 40 sec + lag even when loaded on grid already, in my ranis of doom in 40 secs I can get ontop of most stuff.. so fighting outnumbered in those situations with bad lagg is silly no matter whos commanding what. Im pritty sure bob know that a well timed deploying of drones/fighters does wonders when done at the correct time. Its depressing that alot of effort has to go into understanding what lag will do and how to relog/not to logg is not only a must but the norm. How can any new allaince learn anything if they jump in the cant move and they loose eveything before they see it in some cases?

I wish there was some like good thing I can say for u guys to look forward to but really if DD.s capital poss stuff is going to rule eve.... its a lame fight when u go taste some decent smaller scale stuff (capitols as well just withough the DD).

How to can this change.. well remove friggin DDs might give new players a chance ! Make the titan wtf pawn other capitols so its still a massive asset on the field just not this crap that takes away so much fighting. If a titan could 3 volly any dred people would still look up at them with the big omg it must be heaven eyes. Try and feed back into the game an incentive for roaming bs groups and other such gangs since these breath life into all. I dont even know how to susgest u can reduce lagg with posses other then maybe spredding how u attack a system.

I wish u all good luck but dont worry if they dont fix it and u get all ****ed off there's life out there still. U might just have to step away from the "how big my wangger is". Ur not going to take ur titans/poss with u when u leave, u cant take it home to show ur folks but ull carry the memories of ur best fights with u. I pitty u if that was some cluster **** where u killed some poor sods that couldt see anything but a black screen.

there's very little incentive left to be brave if u like ,and push your men into a better place.

Its embarracing (spelling :P) to see the state of most alliances Idears on whats good for them. Like I say maybe its harder for me to judge in this corp but the things that made the better allainces good was fighting a hard fight, when we saw 30 bob rock up into fix space way back when we would do our best if we had more numbers to send only 30, bob did the same when we rocked up in fountain. U might loose a few fleets bs more then if u taken more numbers but ull loose allot less in later fights, its the attitude of players that also make this situation.

Cautet
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:34:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Cautet on 15/05/2008 13:36:05
Originally by: Yogos
Edited by: Yogos on 15/05/2008 13:06:11

When they need to hold 40 moons insteed 4 to capture station then they will quit.




EDIT
ATM for alone ally i think best way to capture station is to grab this with most moons (80+) and spam 80 POS with maximum hardeners. When even 40 dreds need to shot over hour to one pos you win by boring opponent :D




Well, with regards the first point, making the game so boring that everyone quits is not how i would solve it.

With regards the second point - you can't do it. There is a hardcap limit on number of poses you can drop in a system per day per alliance. I think CCP made a mistake with this and it's yet another reason why 10+ alliances all gang together.

In fact, Caps were badly implemented, and despite all the moaning about titans, they are actualy not that big a deal in comparison to other caps. They are all (except dreads) far far too powerfull. When a defender can field 150+ caps in a system plus fleet bs plus support, you can't even jump into those systems let alot fight, and the fighter blob makes lag so bad would you want to play that game?

SOV (and posses) also were badly implmented. using poses on moons to gain sov is a nightmare with some systems having a few and some having tons. Pos spamming by multiple alliances is such a boring tactic.

The way capitals (especially carriers) work at present, and the numbers of them in the game, are what is causing the game to become stagnant interms of territory control.

However, there will be more fights and more alliances taking territory regardless of these issues, I am sure.

Speaking of someone involved in a defence fight for the last month, some parts are realy great but the amount of lag when you have multiple caps on the field is really not that fun. And once caps are on the field most other ships become pointless because of how much more powerfull caps are.

Daveydweeb
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:53:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: KIATolon
I hear drums


No, that's just the workmen in hammyhamm's roof.

Crotador
Minmatar
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:56:00 - [85]
 

I think the answer is very simple...

Resources. If resources were to dry up in a particular region it would force the owning alliance to move and take new space. It would mean alliances would need to be a little more nomadic.

It would also open up constant exploration for new resources and those people/corps that find a rare moon would only be able to mine it for so long before it dried up and was reseeded elsewhere.


Crackzilla
Minmatar
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:59:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Crackzilla on 15/05/2008 14:03:03
Originally by: Yogos
I must do 30-40 jumps to try to capture ratter :(



Fights are no longer a local affair where you might need to only consider a fight at a moon and watching a gate for the next system.

Part of the issue with this I think is that folks were convinced that nanos and warp to zero were previously the solution. People wanted to quickly move from system to system. This has killed low sec and changed 0.0.

With local giving perfect intel and with the speed that fleets move space isn't as vast as it once was. Power blocks need large buffer zones around them just to have enough time to form a defensive fleet. Ratters know that it is crazy to rat with even a single hostile in system as they'll be dead from a fleet 2-3 jumps out before they can kill the tackler.

Between local and how fast ships can hop from system the universe is tiny. Add in titan jump bridges plus the cap hot drop and alliances desire a buffer zone measured in tens of light years.

Even if logistics were changed it wouldn't encourage spreading out. The same pattern would hold of a few garrisoned castles seperated by vast wastelands. This would make things worse as it would raise the effective costs of running stations and force a consolidation.

While the sov map might change color the effective situation in space would be the same. Small alliances could still not compete. Space would be empty. Usually a small force is mobile and can attack where a large force is not. What we have now is a system where a large alliance is the most mobile of them all.

Large power blocks are forced for mutual protection. Because often there is one chance with pos's and cyno jammers both sides must mass large numbers at crazy times of the night. Mobility wins as does numbers.

Small alliances cannot effectively compete if they cannot move quickly nor mass the numbers for something say defending a cyno jammer 24/7. When a campaign can be won or lost based on a few stront timers the only solution is multiple stations seperated by distance.


I don't know the precise solution.

I've always thought the trend to moving quickly from system to system was a bad idea. I think if the pace were slower and with changes to local low sec would be usable and more fights could be had. What we have now is that many move quickly so the rest must do so or else dock and log.

Make resources in space more dynamic. This would give us more to fight over. Everyone knows which moons are worth anything. Everyone knows which systems are worth anything.

I think the issue of local, the ease of jumping from system to system, and the shrinking universe is all the same issue. The easier it is to consolidate space and hold it, the less fights everyone sees. The less things change the less we must fight.


hammyhamm
Caldari
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2008.05.15 14:01:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: KIATolon
I hear drums


No, that's just the workmen in hammyhamm's roof.

I dont knBANGBANGBANGat you are talkinBANGBANGBANGut.

Kasken
Amarr
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.05.15 14:02:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Yogos
I must do 30-40 jumps to try to capture ratter :(



Fights are no longer a local affair where you might need to only consider a fight at a moon and watching a gate for the next system.

Part of the issue with this I think is that folks were convinced that nanos and warp to zero were previously the solution. People wanted to quickly move from system to system. This has killed low sec and changed 0.0.

With local giving perfect intel and with the speed that fleets move space isn't as vast as it once was. Power blocks need large buffer zones around them just to have enough time to form a defensive fleet. Ratters know that it is crazy to rat with even a single hostile in system as they'll be dead from a fleet 2-3 jumps out before they can kill the tackler.

Between local and how fast ships can hop from system the universe is tiny. Add in titan jump bridges plus the cap hot drop and alliances desire a buffer zone measured in tens of light years.

Even if logistics were changed it wouldn't encourage spreading out. The same pattern would hold of a few garrisoned castles seperated by vast wastelands. This would make things worse as it would raise the effective costs of running stations and force a consolidation.

While the sov map might change color the effective situation in space would be the same. Small alliances could still not compete. Space would be empty. Usually a small force is mobile and can attack where a large force is not. What we have now is a system where a large alliance is the most mobile of them all.

Large power blocks are forced for mutual protection. Because often there is one chance with pos's and cyno jammers both sides must mass large numbers at crazy times of the night. Mobility wins as does numbers.

Small alliances cannot effectively compete if they cannot move quickly nor mass the numbers for something say defending a cyno jammer 24/7. When a campaign can be won or lost based on a few stront timers the only solution is multiple stations seperated by distance.


I don't know the precisely solution.

I've always thought the trend to moving quickly from system to system was a bad idea. I think if the pace were slower and with changes to local low sec would be usable and more fights could be had. What we have now is that many move quickly so the rest must do so or else dock and log.

Make resources in space more dynamic. This would give us more to fight over. Everyone knows which moons are worth anything. Everyone knows which systems are worth anything.

I think the issue of local, the ease of jumping from system to system, and the shrinking universe is all the same issue. The easier it is to consolidate space and hold it, the less fights everyone sees. The less things change the less we must fight.




Personally, make it so jump bridges cant jump into a system with an active cyno jammer, and a cyno jammer prevents cap from cynoing in or out.

Shinori
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.15 14:08:00 - [89]
 

Why don't you have some more T2 bpos spawned about it and see what happens.

Please provide pics and dev confession.

Spoon Thumb
Caldari
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2008.05.15 14:30:00 - [90]
 


Well pointless going over what others have already said, but POS suck quite bad

This is what I'd do to solve it

I think this topic has also been covered before and not much has changed since then

Also since FW will not include alliances, I think anyone who thinks it'll solve the problems of stagnant 0.0 either hasn't read all the details or is one hell of an optimist


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