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Chimay
Caldari
Next Era Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.07 21:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Chimay on 07/05/2008 21:59:52
First Iíll go over what I like to get out of EVE. 0.0 is fun, been there, lived there for a while. I enjoyed 0.0 for its PVE experiences, doing the exploration complexes and such, decent faction spawns as well.


I prefer small scale battles; lag free with myself in control making the discussions. When killing people in a blob it never really invoked any kind of emotion. Just following orders and found myself, wellÖ bored!


I started leaving 0.0 and moved around low sec more and more. The reason, not many blobs, increased chance of finding small lag free PVP with you making the choices. What do you know Iím having fun! Iíd love to do it more often. But Iím limited on the amount of fun because of security status. Let me show you why. Hopefully thereís other out there that are plagued by the same fate.


Example:

Current security status is -1.0
You aggress someone -.5%
Have a good fight and you win. Your reward for winning (destroying the ship) is a -2.0% taken from sec status. Your reward for Capturing the Pod? -8.0% (donít forget the -.5% for aggressing the pod)


Without the pod kill your now -1.2 sec status.
How long does this take to gain just +2.0% to get back to -1.0?


First let me tell you how Gaining security status works. Approximately every 20mins your Security status gains are calculated. It does not matter how many rats you killed. The only thing it looks at is the biggest Rat you killed and gives you sec status based off that.


In Empire without access to 0.0 space, the fastest method Iíve found is getting a level 4 mission, I find the serps have the bigger sec gain (bigger the bounty the bigger the sec gain) so I grind missions until I found a good one with a lot of these Battle ships in it. Iíll clear out all the misc ships and just leave the battle ships. Killing those give me a gain of 0.2012% which compares to crappy ratting in 0.0.

So my goal is gain enough sec status for just one PVP fight.
Kill 1 Battleship and wait between 18mins to 35mins for a sec status gain (you constantly check your character sheet). Once it updates you may kill another Battle ship. You must rinse and repeat this process 10 times (provided youíre killing the higher end mission rats) Lower ones take longer. So this is BEST case scenario. The time it takes to do this, again using the best case scenario is 3 to 6 hours!!!! This is currently the fastest way. If you finish the nice mission you waited for you will only get sec status for about 2 sec updates. Many of the other missions such as worlds collide, damsel, Blockade, not to mention all the faction ones do not give you any sec gain. Some are 5 part missions that can take you a better part of the day to finish them all. So when you get a good mission you want to hold on to it to farm it for the sec status gain.


The problems I have are the punishments for PVP, which make me ponder a few things. Why am I doing 3 to 6 hours of PVE for a single PVP encounter? Why is Sec status not added for each NPC? Why the harsh punishment for success? Can the system be changed so at least we donít have to go AFK 20mins per NPC kill?


Existing Alternative options
Move to 0.0. Blobs, politics, and a bunch of ass kissing for the logistics for living there along with other taxes or fees that may apply. Not really worth it comparing the quality of fights in empire. Nice that you can fight without losing status at least.


War Dec. Because itís no longer policed there are many ways to exploit escaping them. A waste of both time and money.

Best solution in the current state I can think of is finding a corp. of similar interests that want to fight as well. Provided again at cost and the logistics of finding said corp. with same interests willing to divide the cost of play up. This last one works at least. It comes with time, and of course more PVE to supply the fees.

Chimay
Caldari
Next Era Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.07 21:58:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Chimay on 07/05/2008 22:00:08
Donít forget that the blob factor may enter in to these fights.


If asked what Iíd do to change it, Iíd say remove security status lost from low sec. That will never happen so my next suggestion would be give credit per each npc kill individually speeding up the grind to something a bit more reasonable. Quite a few different things that can be done. Iíd like something to change, hence the reason for the post. Just seems like a bit out of whack. I mean Iím here in what is claimed to be a PVP game. However Iím required to rat for 3-6 hours for a single encounter. Its ok at first, but as time goes on Iím running out of steam grinding PVE stuff, letís make the game more about fun shall we?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:04:00 - [3]
 

Yeah, I also found that lowsec ISK making is the sux. I'd totally live in lowsec if that issue, as well as the crap ISK opportunities, were fixed.

Lowsec needs something akin to ratting (fast cycle time, reasonable income) to accommodate for the everpresent chance of piracy. Missions/exploration generally have very low cycle times.

-Liang

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:06:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: cal nereus on 07/05/2008 22:07:53

As far as I know, one only needs sec status to travel through high-sec, so if you don't need to travel through high-sec, you're in good shape.

Edit: Admittedly though, low-sec could use something extra, either to improve isk-earning potential there and/or enable more PvP opportunities.

Del369
Caldari
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:10:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Chimay
Edited by: Chimay on 07/05/2008 22:00:08
Don’t forget that the blob factor may enter in to these fights.


If asked what I’d do to change it, I’d say remove security status lost from low sec. That will never happen so my next suggestion would be give credit per each npc kill individually speeding up the grind to something a bit more reasonable. Quite a few different things that can be done. I’d like something to change, hence the reason for the post. Just seems like a bit out of whack. I mean I’m here in what is claimed to be a PVP game. However I’m required to rat for 3-6 hours for a single encounter. Its ok at first, but as time goes on I’m running out of steam grinding PVE stuff, let’s make the game more about fun shall we?

Actually yes, sec status hits in low sec ? duh...... get rid of them CCP, keep the gate and station guns but lose the sec status hits pls
kthxby

Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:19:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Andargor theWise on 07/05/2008 22:19:19

Originally by: Del369

Actually yes, sec status hits in low sec ? duh...... get rid of them CCP, keep the gate and station guns but lose the sec status hits pls
kthxby


Thinking about it, sec status loss in low sec probably just deters the players wanting to police it, not the guys that really want your stuff (or to see you blow up).

Hmm. Maybe something to make low sec more attractive, remove the sec loss?

But then, what would the sec status be used for? lol

/headache

Chimay
Caldari
Next Era Dawn
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:24:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: cal nereus
Edited by: cal nereus on 07/05/2008 22:07:53

As far as I know, one only needs sec status to travel through high-sec, so if you don't need to travel through high-sec, you're in good shape.

Edit: Admittedly though, low-sec could use something extra, either to improve isk-earning potential there and/or enable more PvP opportunities.


Great point Cal,

Because rats in lowsec are of pretty low value. No Battleship spawns. My primary source of income is Missions. Doing missions in lowsec in a slow PVE fitted Battleship screams free kill.

Just recently while doing a RADAR site from exploration it took me 2 hours to find it. It took the fleet of 9 people 40 seconds to find me. Completely not worth the risk. I can at least say I depend on Empire to make money. Plus I need the option to help my corp or alliance. Many do but are punished for it.

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:27:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 07/05/2008 22:28:59
I was going to post a snarky comment along the lines of "can't take the time, don't do the crime", "waaaah, gankers don't like that there is a drawback", etc. But even the Carebears like myself understand that Sec Status loss in LowSec do nothing to make the area safer and is detrimental to players policing LowSec themselves.

Maybe do sec status loss like increases are done but slightly modified; You only take a loss if you:

1)Perform 2 or more hostile actions in a 15 minute period and
2)Only take a hit for the "largest" target/ship class/enemy's sec status

Leave Pod Kills at full loss, but make it so selective hits can be done both for and against Piracy. Modify Sec Loss so it is based on the player blown up instead of just that you did it (unarmed haulers and mining barges are "worth" more sec loss while combat ships are worth "less", etc).

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.08 00:57:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 08/05/2008 01:01:36
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Leave Pod Kills at full loss, but make it so selective hits can be done both for and against Piracy. Modify Sec Loss so it is based on the player blown up instead of just that you did it (unarmed haulers and mining barges are "worth" more sec loss while combat ships are worth "less", etc).

Or base it on the sec rating of the player killed.

Negative player kills negative player = no change
Negative player kills positive player = sec loss
Postive player kills negative player = sec gain

And some sliding scale based on the difference between sec status.

*thinks*

Hmm okay must build in some fix so that negative players can hunt down positive players that are after them for sec gain without them losing sec if they dont want to, as that'd be unbalanced. Maybe only sec gain if positive player has a vigilante badge or whatever, which also negates any sec loss from negative players.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.08 01:41:00 - [10]
 

if they been bad you get no sec loss aka they all flashy red

aids just damn fine for policing lowsec

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.08 01:42:00 - [11]
 

or just have some native pirates do the policing YARRRR!!

Treean
Posted - 2008.05.08 03:12:00 - [12]
 

Sec status hits make sense. Removing choke points like gates is a better solution. That is the single biggest pain in the arse when it comes to PvP in this game. It seems to revolve around choke points. It gets old...really fast.

It's not an easy thing to fix though, removing those choke points would essentially change the very fundamentals of the game.

...and in an after thought empire PvP seems to revolve around stations.

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.08 04:50:00 - [13]
 

The sec. status do have a purpose of showing who is pirate or not. But other than that it needs to be tweaked a lot. The penalties of low-sec status = no access to high-sec isnīt saving people from being ganked in low-sec. And the sec. drop hits newbies hardest since they gain sec. status slowly with lvl 1-3 missions.

The sec. penalty needs to depend on what you are shooting at, lower to no penalty of shooting someone with negative sec. status. Removing the need to wait for the pirate to attack.

Make it so that after a podkill you canīt enter high-sec for at least 1 hour if you have positive sec. status and up to a day if you have low enough sec. status. Besides that, let -10 sec. status Pirates have access to High-sec. Concorde shall not shoot them, but will not protect them either.

Mr Siman
Spawn More Overlords
Posted - 2008.05.08 05:49:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Treean
Sec status hits make sense. Removing choke points like gates is a better solution. That is the single biggest pain in the arse when it comes to PvP in this game. It seems to revolve around choke points. It gets old...really fast.

It's not an easy thing to fix though, removing those choke points would essentially change the very fundamentals of the game.

...and in an after thought empire PvP seems to revolve around stations.


There is no fix to this. Combat will occur where people are, by nature. How would you fight where people are-not?

The only alternative is volunteer-only combat, which as we all know is simply not compatible with the EVE game style.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.08 06:46:00 - [15]
 

Yeah lets make it even easier for pirates in low sec, making sure less people are in low sec and pirates are harder to identify (yes i am perfectly well aware that sec status isnt a guarantee if someone is a pirate or not, but it helps).

I got a better idea, stop podkilling people.

Podkilling people when at war, perfectly fine of course. Podkilling them in your territory in 0.0 or just because to irritate your neighbouring alliance, perfectly fine.
But you gain nothing by podkilling random people in low sec.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:04:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 08/05/2008 07:07:24
Here's an idea:
Simplistic:You only take a sec. hit when doing something to someone with a lower sec status than you.
More complex:You lose or gain sec status depending on the difference between your sec status and your victim's.

The only issue here is people keeping a naughty alt to blow up so a final twist might be:

Your sec status isn't lost and doesn't come out of thin air. It is transferred from one character to another. IOW the victim gets a boost at the same time as the aggressor takes a hit.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Chimay
The problems I have are the punishments for PVP, which make me ponder a few things. Why am I doing 3 to 6 hours of PVE for a single PVP encounter? Why is Sec status not added for each NPC? Why the harsh punishment for success? Can the system be changed so at least we donít have to go AFK 20mins per NPC kill?



When sec status improved for every kill it was absurdly easy for bad guys to fix their sec status (once upon a time you could just pay CONCORD and *poof*...all fixed).

If you are pirating you are supposed to suffer a penalty for it. What would be the point if you could grind your sec status back in no time? As it is low sec status is not much more than an inconvenience anyway and a laughable penalty (make an ALT to go shopping/sell stuff in Empire for you). Frankly your sec status should spread to all your ALTs and accounts just for associating with you. Wink

If you really care you have options:

- Hunt in 0.0 and no sec penalty (yeah I know you were there but that is what 0.0 is partly supposed to get you)

- Hunt only -5 sec status pilots (no sec hit for engaging them, not all that hard to come across)...I have no sympathy if that means you lose out on hauler ganks and have to actually deal with someone who will likely shoot back. If you really want PvP rather than shooting fish in a barrel then that will work better anyway.

- Get an ALT to go to Empire for you and wear -10 sec status with pride

- Make a combat ALT for low sec who you do not care if it gets a low sec status (reverse of idea just before this one)

- War dec some corps hanging in low sec

- Wait for Faction Warfare in a month

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Andrue
Edited by: Andrue on 08/05/2008 07:07:24
Here's an idea:
Simplistic:You only take a sec. hit when doing something to someone with a lower sec status than you.
More complex:You lose or gain sec status depending on the difference between your sec status and your victim's.

The only issue here is people keeping a naughty alt to blow up so a final twist might be:

Your sec status isn't lost and doesn't come out of thin air. It is transferred from one character to another. IOW the victim gets a boost at the same time as the aggressor takes a hit.


How does that work?

Keep naughty ALT. Blow his newb ship up endlessly. Naughty ALT is -10, engages your main so is the aggressor, main blows the snot out of the Ibis. Rinse and repeat.

This would be soooo abused.

Aadi Grox
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:29:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h


How does that work?

Keep naughty ALT. Blow his newb ship up endlessly. Naughty ALT is -10, engages your main so is the aggressor, main blows the snot out of the Ibis. Rinse and repeat.

This would be soooo abused.

please don't make the carebears think of real solutions, just let them look stupid

Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:57:00 - [20]
 

Security hits in LowSec doesn't bother me, as you can have an Alt to go shopping for new toys in HighSec.

What botheres me is, that even in LowSec people start to blob up these days Neutral

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2008.05.08 08:15:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 08/05/2008 08:31:28
Edited by: Andrue on 08/05/2008 08:20:57
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Andrue
Edited by: Andrue on 08/05/2008 07:07:24
Here's an idea:
Simplistic:You only take a sec. hit when doing something to someone with a lower sec status than you.
More complex:You lose or gain sec status depending on the difference between your sec status and your victim's.

The only issue here is people keeping a naughty alt to blow up so a final twist might be:

Your sec status isn't lost and doesn't come out of thin air. It is transferred from one character to another. IOW the victim gets a boost at the same time as the aggressor takes a hit.


How does that work?

Keep naughty ALT. Blow his newb ship up endlessly. Naughty ALT is -10, engages your main so is the aggressor, main blows the snot out of the Ibis. Rinse and repeat.

This would be soooo abused.

Hmmm, yeah. Didn't think that through properly. I was trying to remember a solution I had a while back but now I think about it that was part of an improved bounty system.

I still think the sec status could be tweaked a bit but it does need to be more complex, I agree. I'm sure there must be some way to set up a system where sec status tends to see-saw.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.05.08 08:26:00 - [22]
 

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP when it comes to big fleet 0.0 crap. Extremely boring.

However, quit worrying about sec status. Suck it up and let that ammo fly.

Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
Posted - 2008.05.08 09:17:00 - [23]
 

Sooo...

How about if a player with a positive sec rating kills a player with a negative one recieves less of a sec hit, or none at all. This would only work in lowsec systems.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.05.08 09:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tao Han
Sooo...

How about if a player with a positive sec rating kills a player with a negative one recieves less of a sec hit, or none at all. This would only work in lowsec systems.


Or, if it's flashing red, fire. You wont take any sec hit for someone -5 or below.

Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
Posted - 2008.05.08 09:23:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Triksterism
Originally by: Tao Han
Sooo...

How about if a player with a positive sec rating kills a player with a negative one recieves less of a sec hit, or none at all. This would only work in lowsec systems.


Or, if it's flashing red, fire. You wont take any sec hit for someone -5 or below.


Yeah I'm well aware about that mechanic, I'm actually talking about ppl which stay above -5. Much like myself :p

In my opinion you shouldnt take to much of a sec hit if you kill a player which obviously isnt up to any good. Make the sec hit you take depend on the difference between the two players.
I'm not advocating the removal of sec hits all together, just a rewamp of the current system.


 

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