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Red Wid0w
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.02 17:14:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Red Wid0w on 02/04/2008 17:16:55
Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic.

Crow needs to be CHANGED (not buffed or nerfed) because it is absolutely the worst in it's class. It is supposed to be a combat interceptor, designed for killing other intys/frigs. Just like the Claw, Taranis and Crusader. The Crow fails so badly at it's role that it loses to tackler intys like ares/stiletto.

I would suggest changing it's 10% damage bonus to a 5% (to all missile type) bonus, and giving it an extra 5/10% explosion velocity bonus as well. This would let it hit interceptors with it's missiles and fulfill it's role. Ofc massive whining will ensue because people don't use the Crow in it's role.


As for the Raptor.....well you got me there Neutral

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2008.04.02 17:21:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w
Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic.



I killed a 6+km/s malediction like 2 days ago... For one two inties dog fighting won't be at max speed, your average 6.5km/s inty is more like 5.5km/s actually orbiting... Will slow down more the moment one swith from orbit to approach...

Precision lights definily don't work on pimped inties, but hit decently well the unrigged one.


Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 02/04/2008 17:31:19
Originally by: Red Wid0w
Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic.


Precisions will hit 5-6km/s inties, which is the speed that a T2 interceptor trying to kill you will be flying.

Regardless, I don't claim that a Crow is a great anti-interceptor ship. I don't really fight other interceptors in mine unless they are Ares or Stilettoes or something (or other Crows.)

Originally by: Red Wid0w
Crow needs to be CHANGED (not buffed or nerfed) because it is absolutely the worst in it's class. It is supposed to be a combat interceptor, designed for killing other intys/frigs. Just like the Claw, Taranis and Crusader. The Crow fails so badly at it's role that it loses to tackler intys like ares/stiletto.


I don't understand why you are claiming this. The Crow's role is a tackling interceptor that can do sufficient long-range reliable DPS to kill other frigate-sized ships and defend itself against drones. I fly Taranises and Crusaders (not a fan of Claws) and the Crow is not at all similar to those, so I don't know why you want to compare it to them.

I also am at a loss as to why and under what circumstances you think a Crow would "lose" (does that mean die?) to an Ares or a Stiletto.

The Crow is a good, balanced interceptor, as is evidenced by its popularity. I maintain that a buff would make it pretty overpowered as opposed to other, similar interceptors, like the Malediction and Stiletto.

Red Wid0w
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [34]
 

They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow.

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.04.02 17:34:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w
They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway.


True, but any turret Interceptor would have trouble hitting anything orbiting them at ~5km/s too.

Also, keep in mind that the Crow can usually start firing from further away; as long as the Crow isn't approaching it's target directly it should get at least a few volleys off before another Interceptor is even in range. That's usually enough to either scare the other Interceptor pilot off or overcome their superior DPS.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.04.02 20:28:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w
They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow.


Have you even compared range and dps for the long range interceptors? You do know crows dps is pretty darn good for its range. But let me guess, youre comparing crow dps to rockets, blasters and pulse lasers right?

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2008.04.02 22:01:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 11:55:40
Originally by: Brodde Dim
...Explosion velocity is a small issue compared to tracking and range for the other interceptors. You could offcourse fit a web :P


The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range. Explosion velocity is a far far bigger issue than tracking and range for inties. The ability to nullify a Crows damage as and when you choose and in the process making his transversal lower is a huge advantage. It's also very easy to lose a Crows point and escape if you're so slow that hes actually does you any damage.



Am I the only one using precision lights?

They won't work vs a 12km/s pimped inty but they damage your run of the mill 6km/s inty just right. Yes they slow you down, but by the time the other guy got you webbed he's in pretty bad shape. I'm definitely not hunting inties in a crow, but when I got no choice precision lights served me well...


No I use them too because I can afford to lose the speed, you do 75% damage against a 6km/s interceptor but there isnt many 6km/s inties about anymore. They're certainly not good enough to solve the problem.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2008.04.02 22:04:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Red Wid0w
They still hit for reduced damage, and the base dps is lousy anyway. It's embarassing to lose to Crow.


Have you even compared range and dps for the long range interceptors? You do know crows dps is pretty darn good for its range. But let me guess, youre comparing crow dps to rockets, blasters and pulse lasers right?


Doesn't make any difference if they do zero damage at the will of the opposing inty pilot does it?

NoNah
Posted - 2008.04.02 22:22:00 - [39]
 

Glad to see a thread where Lyria acually does well. And the only one to actually even respond to her posts it Welsh himself. Who is known to be as biased as the next guy.

I still consider the crow to be one of the strongest inties in the game. The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. Some of the other needs a sensor booster just to be able to utilize a run of the mill t2 disruptor to it's full extent.

Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon.

Parfait M
Gallente
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2008.04.02 23:10:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Parfait M on 02/04/2008 23:13:52
Crow + Domi web + overheat = Insane

I'm sorry, but you'll be pretty hard pressed to get in range of that crow pilot if he isn't asleep, hungover and high. I didn't even need any faction mods on my ship except for the domi web.

Hell, it was my first Crow. I only got a 140-odd kills with it, but I solo'd two vagas, a drake, a raven, and some other assorted crap with it, and squeezed 100 dps with it, which will break most cruiser tanks. God knows if I actually spent more than a month in it what I could do.

I eventually lost it to a, surprise, neuting + webbing vaga.

>_>

The only reason Crow is so good is that it doesn't have to slow down to shoot, it's so noob friendly.

EDIT: To be fair, the first Vaga I soloed had an absolutely abysmal fit. He actually wanted me to ransom him. To try to solo one with a Crow is one of the dumbest things you can try. With the fit I had, it ALL relies on whether or not the vaga has a neut.

Staying at 18km even at 12km/s, I still could easily get knocked the **** out. Getting closer risks being neuted.

Monticore D'Muertos
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.04.02 23:31:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Monticore D''Muertos on 02/04/2008 23:33:17
don't forget that 4th high a 150mm t2 ac first nicely and adds 20+ dps so my crow pumps out 83dps with caldari navy bloodclaws not uber but way more than those fitting a salvager in that 4th high.

and precision lights help alot even a faster ceptor if you zig zag abit he has slowed down few times turning with you and is in trouble if he doesnt web ya fast enough.

and 3x rockets 1x 150mm
mwd/web/t2 med extender
mapc/speed mods

can be a nice surprise to a short ranged ceptor he does the work of getting into web range for you

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2008.04.02 23:32:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 23:32:42
Originally by: NoNah
...The targetting range and speed alone makes it great.


The lowest scan resolution of all the interceptors. i agree though, the targeting range is nice.

Quote:
Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon.


Then your experience with crows is limited and very dated. Any experienced and moderately quick inty pilot that loses a dogfight to a Crow made some whopping mistakes.

Deserak
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.04.03 03:41:00 - [43]
 

Am I the only one who has found that a nicely plated rocket crow with a web is generally just fine as a killing machine for other interceptors. Yes it isn't as fast, but the damage is quite good and the speed is still usable. Web them as soon as possible, overheating helps, and lay into them with rockets. Most interceptors will have to keep closing at webbed speeds will you do your best to run away. Granted you are slower, and they will eventaully catch you. However, if you can maintain an 8-9km range for even a few volleys chances are they explode long before it becomes a serious problem. It just requires a little clever work to get yourself into the right postion to pull it off. Granted a rocket crow has to be extremely careful around larger targets when compared to a missile crow. Then again that is nothing new for most combat ceptors.

As to the raptor, works dandy as a tackler as long as you never aim to use weapons for more then shooting other frigates and drones. With blasters it can even put out some decent damage. Also, let us not forget it is incredibly cheap, even compared to other interceptors.

Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.04.03 07:05:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away.

Anyone who has any experience in a Crow and the other interceptors care to comment?


Standard tech 2 fit crow is a nice ship, but I wouldn't take it near a Taranis.

Delichon
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.04.03 08:02:00 - [45]
 

T2 lights are nice. Taranis pilot approaches me in order to web and then - poof, a considerable chunk of his shield is out. He goes "wtf???" and warps out. Happened twice, I think, and accidently - both time in Branch :)

Honestly, Welsh, I think that making Raptor a "muscle inty" maybe a viable idea, yet making a Crow a tackling inty is too good to be true. Perma-MWDing outside of heavy-neut range, damaging and disrapting is nothing short of solo-pwnmobile.
True - as is Crow is not really uber against other inties, but maybe it is about Crow. Say we switch missile speed to ROF bonus, increasing DPS, yet droping the range of lights to "just outside of web" and rockets to "in web".

Wardeneo
Gallente
BLL Wise Guys
Posted - 2008.04.03 11:35:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: NoNah
Glad to see a thread where Lyria acually does well. And the only one to actually even respond to her posts it Welsh himself. Who is known to be as biased as the next guy.

I still consider the crow to be one of the strongest inties in the game. The targetting range and speed alone makes it great. Some of the other needs a sensor booster just to be able to utilize a run of the mill t2 disruptor to it's full extent.

Being able to deal damage is an awesome bonus on top of that. In practice there's an endless amount of variables that means any intie can win, but no platform is as good as the crow, or the new malediction. Being independant of range is no small boon.


agreed, i have lost many sips to a crow because i simply cant hit it (orbiting over 6km/s atover 20km) is pretty dar hard - so now ppl want 2 make it the best again (relive the age of the crow) by giving it the long range scram boni - where it can avoid bs neuts, perma run mwd whislt orbiting outa bs neut range adn whislt only using cheap t2 mds - this is where i say stfu and get realistic u want 2 avoid bs neuts and still be able 2 do everything u can imaging - get a domi scram - its costs a **** load but will increase ur survivabilty alot, lyria is right the crow is good enuff it dont need a role reversal, end off

the raptor is a good ship but needs 2 be used well same with ares, but ppl just want the east orbit - fire - win option and in my oppinion the crow does this the best whils loking liek a realy benny hill style ship

so yea thast what i think

/me puts flame suit on Cool

wardeneo

Iteken Hotori
Minmatar
The Flowing Penguins
Posted - 2008.04.03 15:16:00 - [47]
 

yo yo yo
i iz a caldari achura 'coz caldari is da bestest and they fire missilez and they go zoom zoom.
crowz are teh pimpest i have a gistii a-tipe afterburner 'coz of my sig radius and i hav snakez and i go 6000 and fire prcizion missilez and i am best pilot coz my crow is most espenzive an i kill rifter and onz got a harbniger to armour lolz

Red Wid0w
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.03 15:34:00 - [48]
 

All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned.

Haradgrim
Systematic Mercantilism
Posted - 2008.04.03 19:31:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w
All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned.


This is true but the crows general utility makes up for it, however, I would not be against a damage increase for the crow and the raptor needs a complete rebalancing tbqh.

Parfait M
Gallente
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2008.04.03 21:33:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w
All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned.


I ****ing lol'd HARD.

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.04.03 21:41:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Haradgrim
Originally by: Red Wid0w
All these people saying Crow is uber are living in a fantasy land where their opponents are subpar. In reality a competent pilot flying a Taranis/Claw/Crusader can take on multiple Crows easily. Taranis vs 3 Crows = Crows get owned.


This is true...


What? No, it isn't!

Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.04.04 02:24:00 - [52]
 

lol this a good troll

hi i like to make my ship better too

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.04.04 02:52:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Red Wid0w

Precisions won't hit >5km/sec intys (which is like all of them). Check the explosion velocity, you would need loads of flare rigs to start doing damage. Even then the damage is pathetic.


Don't forget that precision missiles nerf your speed too. They really need to be fixed IMO - it's depressing to see the fastest, lightest weapons in the game do 0 damage even to certain HACs Neutral

Caelum Dominus
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.04.04 07:27:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard
Its impossible to discuss anything with you Lyria so I won't even try. You really are the very definition of why arguing on the internet is akin to headbutting a wall. You fail to acknowledge widely undisputed failings with the Crow as a combat ship so its clear you've already made your mind up, yes you won the argument if thats what you want, now go away.


Oh, the irony. Get a clue, welsh.

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.04.04 07:55:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: welsh wizard

The Crow is the flimsiest inty, it dies in web range.


The Crow is the only ceptor which:

- Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile.
- Has the biggest default locking range.
- Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit.
- Can switch damage type if needed.
- Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods.

So in my book it's still the best ceptor since it's the only one which is really worth getting pimped.

And btw, you can get 80 dps out of a Crow, what is pretty confortable for a ship which can't be countered by anything else than ECM, rapiers/huginns/hyenas, neuts or a faster ceptor.

Caelum Dominus
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.04.04 08:01:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Semkhet


The Crow is the only ceptor which:

- Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile.
- Has the biggest default locking range.
- Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit.
- Can switch damage type if needed.
- Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods.


Uh, no. Malediction can also switch damage types, and it can also perma-run MWD and Disruptor.

Scout McAlt
Posted - 2008.04.04 08:04:00 - [57]
 

Combat versions are better tacklers currently because the need for longer scram range is not that required, since both ships fight outside web range. If webs were scrambler range, then the tackler class would shine again.

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2008.04.04 08:17:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Semkhet


The Crow is the only ceptor which:

- Can use bonused weapons no matter the speed or flight profile.
- Has the biggest default locking range.
- Can use weapons with equal effectiveness no matter the distance up to the locking range limit.
- Can switch damage type if needed.
- Can permarun a Gistii-A MWD and Domi disruptor without additional cap mods.


Uh, no. Malediction can also switch damage types, and it can also perma-run MWD and Disruptor.


With rockets ? That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long Wink

Iteken Hotori
Minmatar
The Flowing Penguins
Posted - 2008.04.04 10:55:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Semkhet
That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long Wink


It's comments liek this that make me wonder wether some of you people even fly these ships in any professional capacity.

What use is a Crow at 29km? Scram range is 24, unless you are faction pimped. (150m++ for a domi / RF Scram - no thanks - i'd rather by 10 more interceptors)

Even with that magical 30km scram, the other inty will get into web range of you and kill you, or alter alignment and warp off. Now - I personally think the crow is 'ok' as it is, and the raptor needs a bit of a buff, but that's just me.

Caelum Dominus
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.04.04 11:28:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Semkhet
With rockets ? That gives a real tactical depth. I was referring to the threat a Crow can represent with the conjunction of all these aspects: a Crow orbiting at 11 Km/sec doing 80 dps from 29 Km away and able to do it all day long Wink


A Malediction can use missiles too, you know, not to mention that the Crow cannot do 11km/s without rigs and snakes.

Originally by: Iteken Hotori

It's comments like this that make me wonder wether some of you people even fly these ships in any professional capacity.


I second that.


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