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Mozetta
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.03.26 15:46:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Mozetta on 26/03/2008 15:46:50
Thanks to crappy forum software, and severe technical defficiencies, I have managed to post this on an alt. This is Ki An.

In accordance with your request, I will point out where you misunderstood me in my next-to-last post:

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Excuse me, but I know the consequences of being ganked. I don't need to suffer them in order to understand them, that's absurd. Also, saying that High sec ganking is not a plague because of the consecuences is assuming too much. You take too much for granted. Maybe it's because Empire is crowded with people who consider PvP a secondary thing? I KNOW I am a newbie, but your being a veteran doesn't precisely mean you know it all. Not by a long shot.


What I was talking about where the consequences of ganking someone, not the consequences of being ganked. The consequences you say are too feeble to deterr ganking in high sec, despite the fact that the amount of suicide ganking going on is less than a percent of the amount of actual encounters in highsec. And it has nothing to do with most people chosing a peaceful playstyle. Close to 100% of the instances where blood enemies from 0.0 meet in highsec result in no shots being fired, and it's all because of Concord and other consequences.

Originally by: Darius Brinn
I said I haven't lost a ship to a pirate. I never said I haven't lost a ship. If my corporation wants to discipline me, or kick me out, they know where to find me.


Losing ships to NPCs doesn't count to PvP experience. If you have lost ships in actual PvP encounters I will reverse on this point and say that you do have - albeit limited - experience in PvP.

Originally by: Darius Brinn
I am tainting others? Please. You grace me with such a high concept of my persuading and influencing powers. I just stated my opinions. I don't think I need more experience to throw a valid opinion of consequences of high sec ganking. Love, ignore or hate my opinions, but don't diss me out as a newbie not worth replying to. I see the problem and address the thing. That's all. Don't think there's a real problem, even? Fine. Your opinion is as valid as mine.


I never said you where tainting others. I said you are suffering from misconceptions as evidenced by your posts in this thread. Thos misconceptions lead you to drawing the wrong conclusions, thus tainting your opinions.

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Threatening again? The day somebody I don't know threatens me about a videogame is the day I die, honestly. For your information, I am going to quit Taggart (don't want to bring them trouble) and you do as you please. If you want to achieve through muscle what you can't through discussion, it's up to you.


Again an expample of your lack of knowledge in Eve. If someone angers someone else they have a right to take it out in game. This is a fundamental pillar of Eve: Consequences for actions. I commend you for sympathizing with your alliance mates in that they probably don't want to be dragged into a war because you ran your mouth off on the forums. The problem is that you may have forever tarnished your own reputation, leading to other corps not accepting your application, and you being constantly followed around by people who have taken offense to your forum posturing. Others have suffered from this, and you should take this more as a warning than a threat, being as you are quite new to the game.

Sal Alo
Minmatar
Pane e Panelle
Posted - 2008.03.26 15:48:00 - [182]
 

1. Nobody is going to put a gun on your head if you not read some post on the forum. Carebears whining is your opinion, not mine.

2. Your post is as whining/ranting/spamming as carebears' ones. By me it isn't, by you it is.

3. "CCP don't care bla bla bla". Are you a CCP employee?

4. CCP cares about their players. Most of the people play in Empire, a very huge amount of people.

5. This game is becoming more and more carebear friendly, you don't need THE FORCE to understand that by last patches.

6. You are not very polite to Carebears, saying go play WoW. Carebears pay this game not less, not more than you. Eula shows nothing about incompatibly between their gameplay and your yours. Eula shows nothing about you can write in this forum while they can't.

7. You are trying to impose your point of view, about the game you'd like to play. Lacks of IMHO and with too imperative tone. We are answer back, don't worry.

8. CCP probably will nerf JihadSwarm like they did with Privateers.

9. Is this game going to become a better game if my assumptions are true? No, it isn't but I don't support pirates that want to engage with a full fleet of pvpers vs a single pve ship. Declare war to 0utbreak if you feel so masculine.

10. OMFZG Nerf caldari!!!!!11111oneononeoneoneeleven22two3

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.26 15:57:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 26/03/2008 15:58:01
Originally by: Mozetta

In accordance with your request, I will point out where you misunderstood me in my next-to-last post:


Great.

Originally by: Mozetta
What I was talking about where the consequences of ganking someone, not the consequences of being ganked. The consequences you say are too feeble to deterr ganking in high sec, despite the fact that the amount of suicide ganking going on is less than a percent of the amount of actual encounters in highsec. And it has nothing to do with most people chosing a peaceful playstyle. Close to 100% of the instances where blood enemies from 0.0 meet in highsec result in no shots being fired, and it's all because of Concord and other consequences.


But even accepting that ganking is not a serious trouble for most of the community (not for me yet, at least), does this invalidate the points I introduced to try and make the game less rewarding for pirates? I still think insurances and wrecks could do with a rework.

Originally by: Mozetta
Losing ships to NPCs doesn't count to PvP experience. If you have lost ships in actual PvP encounters I will reverse on this point and say that you do have - albeit limited - experience in PvP.


Sigh...no, Ki an. I do not have PvP experience at all.

Originally by: Mozetta
I never said you where tainting others. I said you are suffering from misconceptions as evidenced by your posts in this thread. Thos misconceptions lead you to drawing the wrong conclusions, thus tainting your opinions.


But why cannot you give me the right answers? I haven't seen (yet) why am I getting the wrong idea. I am open to criticism and ready to learn. Please convince me.

Originally by: Mozetta
Again an expample of your lack of knowledge in Eve. If someone angers someone else they have a right to take it out in game. This is a fundamental pillar of Eve: Consequences for actions. I commend you for sympathizing with your alliance mates in that they probably don't want to be dragged into a war because you ran your mouth off on the forums. The problem is that you may have forever tarnished your own reputation, leading to other corps not accepting your application, and you being constantly followed around by people who have taken offense to your forum posturing. Others have suffered from this, and you should take this more as a warning than a threat, being as you are quite new to the game.



My reputation does not worry me. Of course I don't want anything happening to those who didn't bring it on themselves. That's why I am always, always ready to accept the things that my behaviour bring to me. But only to me.

Never questioned your RIGHT (or capabilities) to rain down on me in-game. I questioned the morality of it, and what does it make of your arguments when it all goes down to "BOW TO ME, I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS AND a gazillion SP".

Whatever happens, happens. I won't open any threads on losing ships or being ****ed up by other players. It's EVE.

I appreciate the warning. It hasn't change my opinions an ounce, though.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:12:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

But even accepting that ganking is not a serious trouble for most of the community (not for me yet, at least), does this invalidate the points I introduced to try and make the game less rewarding for pirates? I still think insurances and wrecks could do with a rework.


When combined with the fact that pirates have a hard time making isk as is it (with a few notable exceptions), it really does invalidate your points. Once again, if you don't believe me, try it out for yourself. Try living as a pirate for one month and then compare your income to the income you have as a high sec miner. Don't forget to include lost ships into the equation. The simple fact that many people who never leave Empire miss, is that Piracy is no I-WIN ticket. It is damn hard, but rewarding because it is fun. You don't become a pirate to make the big bucks, but removing what little way a pirate has to make an income is detrimental to the variety of the game. Insurance in Eve is a game mechanic and is not meant to mimic RL insurance. It is simply there to lessen the death penalty in Eve. It is there to promote more PvP. That is why CCP will not change it.

Originally by: Darius Brinn

But why cannot you give me the right answers? I haven't seen (yet) why am I getting the wrong idea. I am open to criticism and ready to learn. Please convince me.


You are getting the wrong idea because you are only looking at this from one point of view. This is perfectly understandable given the fact that you haven't played for long, but the fact that you refuse to see that you may lack vital knowledge leads you to constantly come to the wrong conclusions, and see opinions as facts. The fact that you have not been around to witness the Devs tweak the game to suit their vision gives you the same problem.

Originally by: Darius Brinn

My reputation does not worry me. Of course I don't want anything happening to those who didn't bring it on themselves. That's why I am always, always ready to accept the things that my behaviour bring to me. But only to me.


You really should be worried about your reputation, because if you plan on staying in Eve, it is the most important and most fragile commodity you will ever possess.

Originally by: Darius Brinn

Never questioned your RIGHT (or capabilities) to rain down on me in-game. I questioned the morality of it, and what does it make of your arguments when it all goes down to "BOW TO ME, I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS AND a gazillion SP".


Everyone lives life by a different set of moral guidelines. Noone has the monopoly on the "correct morals". Eve is also a game based on blowing up the pixels that other people have worked for, i.e a war-game, so RL morality does not apply. If I shoot you in Eve it's not because I would shoot you in RL if I could get away with it. It is simply because it's what Eve is about.

Originally by: Darius Brinn

Whatever happens, happens. I won't open any threads on losing ships or being ****ed up by other players. It's EVE.

I appreciate the warning. It hasn't change my opinions an ounce, though.


Changing the opinions of people through the forums doesn't work, so I had no illusions about that. In time, provided you remain here, you will come to learn more about the game, and you will be able to form a more educated opinion on matters. I am certain you will see where you went wrong in this thread.

Boomershoot
Caldari
Suddenly Ninjas
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:19:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Sal Alo
8. CCP probably will nerf JihadSwarm like they did with Privateers.

before or after they achieve their objective?

Lugburz
Group 2
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:21:00 - [186]
 

I think I'm going to cry...... Sad

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:25:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 26/03/2008 16:26:44
Originally by: Ki An

When combined with the fact that pirates have a hard time making isk as is it (with a few notable exceptions), it really does invalidate your points. Once again, if you don't believe me, try it out for yourself...


Honestly, that's simply not what others always say. There have also been recent experiments of carebears going high sec gankers, and the results were so shocking that they almost made a full career out of it. Piracy is not inherently more lucrative or worse than other activities. But pirates do benefit from a low risk/reward ratio. One Itty V ganked, and you can make a fortune. And you can scan Ittys undisturbed until you find your prey.

Originally by: Ki An
You are getting the wrong idea because you are only looking at this from one point of view. This is perfectly understandable given the fact that you haven't played for long, but the fact that you refuse to see that you may lack vital knowledge leads you to constantly come to the wrong conclusions, and see opinions as facts. The fact that you have not been around to witness the Devs tweak the game to suit their vision gives you the same problem.


In this, you make a point. However, when we're dealing with the topic of the high sec ganking consequences and rewards for pirates, I think I know enough to argue with you. I am not going to argue about which battleship or module is better, or what system is safer. I can, however, talk about Concord and insurances. It's something you don't need to spend a year as a pirate for to understand it, Ki an.

Originally by: Ki An
You really should be worried about your reputation, because if you plan on staying in Eve, it is the most important and most fragile commodity you will ever possess.


The thing is that I do not considering I am harming it that much. Some people out there might disagree with you and agree with me. At the very least, admit the possibility.

Originally by: Ki An
Everyone lives life by a different set of moral guidelines. Noone has the monopoly on the "correct morals". Eve is also a game based on blowing up the pixels that other people have worked for, i.e a war-game, so RL morality does not apply. If I shoot you in Eve it's not because I would shoot you in RL if I could get away with it. It is simply because it's what Eve is about.


But you do ask for respect for old timers. Respect because you are "stronger". Respect for corp mates. You do furnish your moral code, something similar to real life. You can shoot me and you won't see me lifting an eyebrow. Do it in front of Concord, get paid by a NPC insurance company, and you will. That's what this is about.

Originally by: Ki An
Changing the opinions of people through the forums doesn't work, so I had no illusions about that. In time, provided you remain here, you will come to learn more about the game, and you will be able to form a more educated opinion on matters. I am certain you will see where you went wrong in this thread.



Perhaps. Only time will say. I KNOW I can change my opinion if you can show me what you mean. I am not so full of it.

The more I talk about it, the more I am eager to start the PvP thing. I must confess I have been checking your killboards, your corp boards and your posts in those, trying to ascertain where you dwell and how you fare...for the future XD

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:43:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
The more I talk about it, the more I am eager to start the PvP thing. I must confess I have been checking your killboards, your corp boards and your posts in those, trying to ascertain where you dwell and how you fare...for the future XD



You're doing it wrong Wink

First, look at Ki An's posting. He has a signature that says his corp is recruiting. Now what you need to do is either use an alt (if you got an older character you could use for that) or buy an older character from the salesforum with isk and apply to his corp. Get in, work to gain some trust and then rob him blind. Once you do that, you've shown him you've learned how to really play Eve.Very Happy

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:46:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco

First, look at Ki An's posting. He has a signature that says his corp is recruiting. Now what you need to do is either use an alt (if you got an older character you could use for that) or buy an older character from the salesforum with isk and apply to his corp. Get in, work to gain some trust and then rob him blind. Once you do that, you've shown him you've learned how to really play Eve.Very Happy


Cool

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:50:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

The more I talk about it, the more I am eager to start the PvP thing. I must confess I have been checking your killboards, your corp boards and your posts in those, trying to ascertain where you dwell and how you fare...for the future XD



Depending on what you've trained, 3M SP is enough to make a start in PvP. You won't be breaking many killboard records at first, naturally, but please believe me when I say combat experience is much more important than skillpoints.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:51:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco

You're doing it wrong Wink

First, look at Ki An's posting. He has a signature that says his corp is recruiting. Now what you need to do is either use an alt (if you got an older character you could use for that) or buy an older character from the salesforum with isk and apply to his corp. Get in, work to gain some trust and then rob him blind. Once you do that, you've shown him you've learned how to really play Eve.Very Happy


The Guiding Hand famous episode...I loved reading that, yeah. Still, I wouldn't be able to do anything with an older character. Bought accounts with skills I didn't polish through use are useless, in all MMORPGs.

No. I will eventually fit a nice ship, and be able to T2 fit it. Then I'll Google for the corps his killboards ****ed off, join one (if possible) and try to hunt him down.

The fun thing is that it might actually happen, even if it's months or years away. I could also arrange his demise through money, and a thousand things more. Not as satisfying as trying to best him in combat, though.

[/daydreaming]

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.26 16:58:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Depending on what you've trained, 3M SP is enough to make a start in PvP. You won't be breaking many killboard records at first, naturally, but please believe me when I say combat experience is much more important than skillpoints.


My main objective was to pilot a Hulk. So I'm a prospector. It won't stop me, though. I can make it up for it. I got my Learnings buffed up, I don't crosstrain to other races (yet), I am very focused in the key abilities. I only want to train up to Exhumers III and then it's all combat abilities until I break the "absolutely unfit for PVP" barrier.

About to hop into Battlecruisers for lvl 3 missions. Lvl 2 missions in Cruisers are afk stuff, all of them. When I can afford to lose 4 or 5, I'll transfer to low security and start tackling and training in other PvP roles. I am pretty confident that I'll do fine.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:23:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Malachon Draco

You're doing it wrong Wink

First, look at Ki An's posting. He has a signature that says his corp is recruiting. Now what you need to do is either use an alt (if you got an older character you could use for that) or buy an older character from the salesforum with isk and apply to his corp. Get in, work to gain some trust and then rob him blind. Once you do that, you've shown him you've learned how to really play Eve.Very Happy


If he does this, he will have gained my everlasting e-respect.

Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2008.03.26 23:27:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Petter Sandstad on 26/03/2008 23:27:51
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco

First, look at Ki An's posting. He has a signature that says his corp is recruiting. Now what you need to do is either use an alt (if you got an older character you could use for that) or buy an older character from the salesforum with isk and apply to his corp. Get in, work to gain some trust and then rob him blind. Once you do that, you've shown him you've learned how to really play Eve.Very Happy


Cool


Looks like we're all happy now Smile
I knew there was a reason why I liked Exceed.

Emizzon
Caldari
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2008.03.27 02:38:00 - [195]
 

I tried to read,I tried to follow what everyone was saying. But there's just too much. Maybe when I've got more time to read it all, but I'll leave with this.

Insurance companies don't payout on suicides. Why should suicide gankers then receive insurance for a lost ship if it was purposefully lost?

If you respond to this and I don't respond within like 30 seconds, please know that I am currently busy meeting a tight deadline. I don't want you to loose sleep over a response that won't be coming right away. Cause I care.ugh

insidion
Caldari
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.27 02:42:00 - [196]
 

Great post OP, nicely done.
10/10

Laughing

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:24:00 - [197]
 

Wow. Seven pages. That's a new record for one of my topics.

Seriously, I'm not trying to say that nothing in the current game mechanics needs fixing. But, it does seem that quite a few people choose to ignore one of - if not the - central facts of EvE: non-consensual PvP in all security zones is intended, and you and you alone are responsible for your safety.

Malbolge
Posted - 2008.03.27 08:46:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malbolge

Missing the central argument of my post



Let me say this again, in nice bold letters:

What you seemingly utterly fail to understand is that attacking someone is or at least should be a consequence in and of itself. The game is simply not designed to accommodate people who refuse to defend, protect or avenge themselves

If you're not prepared to fight, and you're not prepared to accept the consequences of not fighting, then go play another game. EvE is the wrong one for you.


I did not miss the central argument of your post. I got that what you just repeated was the heart of it. I just don't agree with you, in part at least. Attempt 2:

Oh those stupid people who train exhumers 5 when they could be training racial cruiser 5. What 'tards they are. Rolling Eyes

To use those bold tags you are so fond of, people do not defend, protect, and avenge themselves because the tools they are provided if they follow an industrial skillpath and mostly fly non-combat* ships are inadequate. This is why it's so funny to kill them. Naturally they get a little irritated.

Is what you want a game where everybody pew pews or sucks it up and accepts that they are a target dummy, there for the amusement of others? That vision of EVE is simply wrong--pvp game yes, solely a pew pew game no. Multiple design features suggest this. Pew pew or suck it up is a description of a WoW pvp server with destroyable equipment. Bleah.

Is what you want a game where people have good tools to be their own consequence without having to specialize in pew pew? This is a great idea and I am on board with it. However, if you think that this describes the current state of the game, that is wrong.

*I am aware that in a certain sense every ship in EVE is a combat ship. I trust you understand what I mean.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.27 09:16:00 - [199]
 

*sigh*

I said fight or accept the consequences.

If some players don't want to put a single skillpoint into combat skills then that's fine with me. I don't "hate carebears" - play how the heck you like. I'm not above mining or missioning for ISK when it suits me, come to that. I'm certainly not good enough at PvP to make any kind of living from it.

But.

If these people insist on making themselves so very vulnerable then it really grates to hear them complain about how "unfair" it is that they get noticed as rich, weak targets, how "unfair" it is that they stand no chance of fighting back, how "unfair" it is that because they're so pitifully weak, the cost to suicide gank them is minimal.

If you choose to put the SP into Exhumers 5 and Veldspar Processing 5, rather than get Evasive Maneuvering 5, Shield Management and Shield Upgrades 5, Hull Upgrades and Mechanics 5 then you have chosen to maximise your ISK per hour at the cost of decreasing your Hulk's survivability.

How, again, do that if you like. Skill what you like - it's no skin off my nose! But don't come on to this forum complaining that it's "too easy" to gank hulks and demanding that the rules be changed.

Players who make no effort to protect their ships must understand that consequently they are profitable and amusing targets, and accept occasional losses as a cost of doing business. If they choose to make themselves into pinatas, then all I ask is that they accept that they are pinatas and not complain and whine when someone beats them until candy comes out.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.27 09:40:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Malbolge
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Malbolge

Missing the central argument of my post



Let me say this again, in nice bold letters:

What you seemingly utterly fail to understand is that attacking someone is or at least should be a consequence in and of itself. The game is simply not designed to accommodate people who refuse to defend, protect or avenge themselves

If you're not prepared to fight, and you're not prepared to accept the consequences of not fighting, then go play another game. EvE is the wrong one for you.


I did not miss the central argument of your post. I got that what you just repeated was the heart of it. I just don't agree with you, in part at least. Attempt 2:

Oh those stupid people who train exhumers 5 when they could be training racial cruiser 5. What 'tards they are. Rolling Eyes

To use those bold tags you are so fond of, people do not defend, protect, and avenge themselves because the tools they are provided if they follow an industrial skillpath and mostly fly non-combat* ships are inadequate. This is why it's so funny to kill them. Naturally they get a little irritated.

Is what you want a game where everybody pew pews or sucks it up and accepts that they are a target dummy, there for the amusement of others? That vision of EVE is simply wrong--pvp game yes, solely a pew pew game no. Multiple design features suggest this. Pew pew or suck it up is a description of a WoW pvp server with destroyable equipment. Bleah.

Is what you want a game where people have good tools to be their own consequence without having to specialize in pew pew? This is a great idea and I am on board with it. However, if you think that this describes the current state of the game, that is wrong.

*I am aware that in a certain sense every ship in EVE is a combat ship. I trust you understand what I mean.


Oh and incidentally, you can protect and avenge yourself without having a single SP in gunnery. It's called teamwork.

Yes, I completely understand that it means reducing the profitability of your operation. That's exactly how it's meant to work.

Mining Corp A runs an op: 6 Hulks and a hauler.
Mining Corp B runs an op: 5 Hulks, 1 rep Dominix and a hauler

Mining Corp A will produce 6 units of trit for every 5 that Mining Corp B does, split between the same number of participants. Consequently, the members enjoy 20% more income. Joy!

But wait! Gankers are in local, and want to turn Hulks into candy! Mining Corp B only loses 1 Hulk, but Mining Corp A loses 3. Woe!

Now the equation is this: Corp A lost 2 more hulks - call it 250M ISK. If the frequency of these attacks is such that 250M is less than the extra 20% mined in the interval between such incidents, then Corp A still has a better strategy than Corp B. The hulk losses are sad, but they're a cost of doing business. But if the frequency of these attacks is higher, then the cost to Corp B of maintaining the protecting Dominix is justified. In effect, Corp B have insured their Hulks.

OK, let's say Corp A have lost their 3 hulks, and they're not happy about it. They expect the ganks to increase; the weather report has told them to expect a 70% chance of goons with frequent gusts of CN Antimatter M. They don't have a pilot with the skills to fly a Domi, and it will take a while to train one.

But they do have all this extra ISK they made while times are good... They can pay someone else to shoot at those goons, either deterring them or distracting them, or even just to inflict some damage on them.

Marcus Quo
Axe Gang
Posted - 2008.03.27 11:06:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Marcus Quo on 27/03/2008 11:18:05
I actually read most of this, but skimmed through the last page because it just started repeating.

However, I'm now taking bets for how many war decs the Virtue of Selfishness alliance gets in the next week.

Darius, you go on and on about consequences for suicide ganking. I've got 100 mil ISK at least 3 pirate corps are about to teach you about consequences for shi*posting.

Edit: I wasted enough time reading this thread that I actually feel the need to make a real post, this is a sad day indeed.

Originally by: Malcanis
Players who make no effort to protect their ships must understand that consequently they are profitable and amusing targets, and accept occasional losses as a cost of doing business. If they choose to make themselves into pinatas, then all I ask is that they accept that they are pinatas and not complain and whine when someone beats them until candy comes out.


This is exactly how I feel. There are already many ways to protect yourself in game, the problem is that many players ignore these and instead complain to CCP. Often the argument I see is "there's no way I can kill a pirate in my Badger!" I don't see how it's the pirate's fault you can only fly a badger, or CCP's. That was your choice, and there are consequences for choice.

Also, there's many complaints that CONCORD doesn't go far enough. Has anyone noticed all the war decs against Goonswarm that have been funded by miners? Player consequences for player actions are what this game is about, and I'm certain that Goonswarm has lost more ISK from the war decs than they've made from suiciding. (Note: I know the Goons arn't worried about the decs, and they're not going to disband soon. But killing hulks isn't THAT profitable.)

What more do you want? What a lot of people seem to be asking for is to replace merc corps with CONCORD, which sounds like a pretty lose/lose situation to me.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.27 11:36:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 27/03/2008 12:27:57

Quote:
However, I'm now taking bets for how many war decs the Virtue of Selfishness alliance gets in the next week.

Darius, you go on and on about consequences for suicide ganking. I've got 100 mil ISK at least 3 pirate corps are about to teach you about consequences for shi*posting.


Do as you wish. You're just a troll. I'm through with you.

Those 3 pirate corps are going to spend the next weeks or months looking for a 3m SP miner, in high security, whose most expensive posession is worth, fitted, 10 millions (my Salvaging Catalyst, only for the Cargoholds II and the Tractor beams), and that has around 4 or 5 hours for videogames PER WEEK.

If you want to argue like adults, so be it. I already apologized for possible offenses anybody had taken. I would like to exclude you now.

I won't step down to your level.

Oleksandr
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2008.03.27 15:34:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 26/03/2008 13:36:43
Slightly OT, but any other older players saddened to see the Taggart Transdimensional name being dragged through the dirt by this guy?

Generally I am against alt posts, but this would have been a worthwhile exception.


Whoever really cares about the name of Taggart Transdimensional, will have to care about ideas of Taggart Transdimensional Inc, which among many things includes Capitalism and Rational Morality. I don't think many ever did in the past or now.

I'm the current CEO of Taggart and stand behind every word of Darius Brinn on this thread. I read his every post in this thread. He's certainly not dragging dirt onto TTi's name.

Besides this comment, I won't spend any more into time this thread, though. Everything worthwhile has been said already.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.27 16:18:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Oleksandr

I'm the current CEO of Taggart and stand behind every word of Darius Brinn on this thread. I read his every post in this thread. He's certainly not dragging dirt onto TTi's name.

Well, I guess my memory of TTi is very different from yours.
But you're the CEO, so if you're happy that's all that matters.

Still a bloody shame though.

Mauslin
Posted - 2008.03.27 16:44:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Mauslin on 27/03/2008 16:46:09
I have to say, I'm a bit worried now. I see both sides of the discussion and IMHO both sides have valid points. The problem I see in most of these discussions is the generalisation. EVE consists of a lot of play styles and most of them are ok. But there are some play styles that differ and have a way lower risk/reward ratio than others. Two examples:

I flew with a shuttle with a few BP's to a distant system. On the way I had to cross Jita. Suddenly, a ship scanned me, but I jumped into the next system and didn't worry about it, as the ship didn't follow. On the next gate I went kabloom. Now there is a stupid idiot in this story and 5 ISK if you can find him. It was me. I made so many things wrong, I don't even know where to start. I flew with autopilot (not afk though) instead of manually jumping at 0m, I didn't ran to cover when I was scanned, I thought I'm safe just because I never was attacked at a gate before and so on. I even had to write a congratulation mail to the attackers for the ambush. But I was so furious about myself that I think I learned my lesson ;)

On the other hand, I was in 0.7 mining, when an outfitted Tech 2 Frigate showed up and stole my ore. I knew that if I steal it back I was to be shot. I also knew that if I attack in whatever ship was ready to me, I was to be shot. I knew I didn't stand a chance. So what did I do? Nothing. We stared at each other for about 15 minutes untill he left. THIS is not ok in my opinion. There is no risk included for the ganker, nor is there a big reward. But still, the risk is minimal, as in the eyes of concord he is not doing anything wrong. All he does is using the fact that stealing is ok and waiting for a noob to make a mistake (e.g. taking the ore back), just so he can destroy the fun of others. Such actions should even be in a game like EVE bad behaviour. Now I don't want Concord to vaporize him in 5 seconds for stealing some Tritanium. But after the 10th or 50th theft, Concord would probably start to hunt him down. After all it IS A high sec environment and theft is wrong.

Both guys could be called "pirates". But while the first ones need planning, organisation and have drawbacks, the second one is (in my opinion) using exploits with the simple plan to make others lifes miserable. I don't see where EVE in general profits from them.

P.S.: I'm writing this with an alt. Because it seems that discussions can quickly go out of hand and I risk of being shot down by players in space just because they disagree. It saddens me that I have to be afraid to express my opinion in a forum though. Never saw this happen in other games, but probably because it's easier in EVE.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.27 16:57:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Mauslin

On the other hand, I was in 0.7 mining, when an outfitted Tech 2 Frigate showed up and stole my ore. I knew that if I steal it back I was to be shot. I also knew that if I attack in whatever ship was ready to me, I was to be shot. I knew I didn't stand a chance. So what did I do? Nothing. We stared at each other for about 15 minutes untill he left. THIS is not ok in my opinion. There is no risk included for the ganker, nor is there a big reward. But still, the risk is minimal, as in the eyes of concord he is not doing anything wrong. All he does is using the fact that stealing is ok and waiting for a noob to make a mistake (e.g. taking the ore back), just so he can destroy the fun of others. Such actions should even be in a game like EVE bad behaviour. Now I don't want Concord to vaporize him in 5 seconds for stealing some Tritanium. But after the 10th or 50th theft, Concord would probably start to hunt him down. After all it IS A high sec environment and theft is wrong.


Before can flagging an ore thief could up to your can and take stuff with impunity.
That was the price you paid for working alone, and being lazy and greedy. You choose to jettison your hard mined rocks in to the cold void of space, rather than ferry them back to the station in your hold, or get a hauler to pick them up.
Most of the time jettisoning the ore was more profitable, but there was the risk of it getting taken.
You see how that works?
Increased potential reward, increased risk.

But "No!" screamed the miners - I want to be able to kersplod the dirty git who took my stuff.
Counter to the voice of reason, miners were given exactly this option .. which they then refuse to use because they might get hurt.

Funny story, huh?

C601
Posted - 2008.03.27 17:39:00 - [207]
 

Cliff notes.... Die > adapt or cancel eve.

Problem is Teddy bear A gets his ship popped in highsec from a bad bad bear, teddy bear comes running to the forums crying whining how he got ganked b/c of his own fault. And he demands ccp nerf his ship and make things safer for him and his fellow teddybears. F' that..

People want easy street in eve, especially teddy bears.

Its been said time and time again, just like in RL, Highsec = Major City 0.0 = in the middle of no where Chances of getting robbed in a major city are higher then in the middle of no where. Sure it can still happen. But anyone who lives 0.0 space for the most part will tell you its probably safer then Jita.

Sure there are plenty of things that are "unfair" in Eve, I have my own list. But you don't see me come running to the forums crying about it.

I also think you have alot of people who come from these other MMOs that are pro teddy bear, they jump ship and starting playing Eve and expect the same thing.

Sooner you realize that the OP is not smoking out his azz, the quicker you will adapt and you will become a smarter player.

HENODE PRAVIA
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.03.27 17:51:00 - [208]
 

There's only one TRUTH, and is far of this clueless, pointless and useless discussion.

Ah, but when that truth uncovers....will be too later...or not?????

who will then recon his big big mistake and assume his words???

MING-dinasty proverbe: you're master of your silences, slave of your words...

ha!


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.27 17:54:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Mauslin

On the other hand, I was in 0.7 mining, when an outfitted Tech 2 Frigate showed up and stole my ore. I knew that if I steal it back I was to be shot. I also knew that if I attack in whatever ship was ready to me, I was to be shot. I knew I didn't stand a chance. So what did I do? Nothing. We stared at each other for about 15 minutes untill he left. THIS is not ok in my opinion. There is no risk included for the ganker, nor is there a big reward. But still, the risk is minimal, as in the eyes of concord he is not doing anything wrong. All he does is using the fact that stealing is ok and waiting for a noob to make a mistake (e.g. taking the ore back), just so he can destroy the fun of others. Such actions should even be in a game like EVE bad behaviour. Now I don't want Concord to vaporize him in 5 seconds for stealing some Tritanium. But after the 10th or 50th theft, Concord would probably start to hunt him down. After all it IS A high sec environment and theft is wrong.


Before can flagging an ore thief could up to your can and take stuff with impunity.
That was the price you paid for working alone, and being lazy and greedy. You choose to jettison your hard mined rocks in to the cold void of space, rather than ferry them back to the station in your hold, or get a hauler to pick them up.
Most of the time jettisoning the ore was more profitable, but there was the risk of it getting taken.
You see how that works?
Increased potential reward, increased risk.

But "No!" screamed the miners - I want to be able to kersplod the dirty git who took my stuff.
Counter to the voice of reason, miners were given exactly this option .. which they then refuse to use because they might get hurt.

Funny story, huh?


Actually that little parable does give me some hope. I think it's likely or at least possible that CCP will change the rules for suicide ganking... but that the Law Of Unintended Consequences will apply.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2008.03.27 19:08:00 - [210]
 

In yea olden days, people actually came to steal ur ore, now they either just suicide gank u or steal ur ore to bait u in to attacking them, these people arn't pirates, there pathetic.

4 guys in t1 frigates harrassing a 40 man mining gang in low sec and getting away with a barge kill, now thats pirating with big hairy balls impo, but thats also something from yea olden eve and hardly seen today.

People either exploit a (sadly valid) gamemechanic or 10pvp u with capitals if they can.


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