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blankseplocked Vargur badly needs more power grid!!
 
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Eneela M
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:12:00 - [1]
 

This ship is essentially ok imo, except for a horrible lack of grid. I understand it's meant for shield tanking and PDU's should make up some of the grid, but the vargur can't even fit 4x 1200 II arties + an XL booster WITH 3x PDU II.

I don't mind working around some things if that's the way it's meant to be, but i can't help looking at all those kronos/paladin pilots swanning around with full racks of 425's and tachy's with grid to spare & feeling like I pulled a short straw.

Annowyn
Ammatar.
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:20:00 - [2]
 

Wow, use the search function. I think you are bost 1238735478 with this same topic!

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:22:00 - [3]
 

Use the Search Function to find the stuff your looking for, aka the 5000 other topics about the Vargur and PG.

Kaleidon Reth
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:22:00 - [4]
 

I dunno much about the Vargur and fitting it per se, but are you sure it's not possible to go almost full gank on it and just outgank most missions? You might have to skip on 2-3 lvl4s in total because there's just to much **** aggroing at once, but maybe you can get away with a semi-passive tank or a smaller booster and just kill **** really fast?

Asestorian
Domination.
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:34:00 - [5]
 

The only reason it doesn't have more powergrid is because that would make it too powerful in PvP, which is exactly what CCP don't want, as these are PvE ships. The issue comes from the differences between ACs and Artys. While it is annoying, the answer cannot be to add more powergrid, so another solution must be found.

Kaleidon Reth
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:43:00 - [6]
 

Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs?

This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it.

Annowyn
Ammatar.
Posted - 2008.03.24 13:44:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kaleidon Reth
Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs?

This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it.


Faction projectiles are exactly equivelent to best named.

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.24 16:50:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Annowyn
Originally by: Kaleidon Reth
Also, PG rigs? Fit faction guns instead of t2(unless you need to use t2 ammo), faction PDUs?

This is a PvE ship, you can afford to faction fit it.


Faction projectiles are exactly equivelent to best named.


This is not correct. Faction artillery, for example, has a 5% better ROF over best named. This beat in pure DPS terms by T2, assuming you have the correct artillery spec to 3 or more.

zayanka
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:21:00 - [9]
 

If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank

3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Cap Recharger II

4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L
2 tractor beams and 1 salvager
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit II

And also it is completely cap stable

Annowyn
Ammatar.
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:23:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: zayanka
If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank

3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Cap Recharger II

4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L
2 tractor beams and 1 salvager
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit II

And also it is completely cap stable



If you fly something like this, please post on General boards. A lot of people would like to know. And two fitting mods? K.

Sergo Mor'Zert
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:33:00 - [11]
 

the only thing that would made vargur so powerfull in pvp is this falloff bonus... so:

give vargur more grid and swap falloff bonus for optimal range bonus and now you have ship that is good in pve with arties and crap in pvp with autocanons, and no it will not work well in fleets, to costly and with this crap sensor strength it will be jammed for entire engagement, or at least till it get primaried...

and no no one sane use autocanons for missions its doable but far from optimal solution, good only if you extremally bored...

all marauders are good ammo consumption wise so can use faction ammunition to increase damage output considerably, vargur with acs is locked to t1 as with faction ammo you wouldnt earn much on mission, you would pay through your nose for faction ammo acs throw out like there is no tomorrow... and dps in falloff isnt stellar...

zayanka
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:38:00 - [12]
 

downgrade the guns and you can get rid of RCU and fit damage control instead

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.24 23:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: zayanka
downgrade the guns and you can get rid of RCU and fit damage control instead


Except that anyone using this ship can already tank well enough and wants to run missions faster (read: more dps)

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2008.03.24 23:38:00 - [14]
 

There is nothing wrong with the Vargur that a boost to its falloff bonus won't fix. It does really good out to 60km or so with T2 falloff rigs. Not that those are very expensive items to fit to a ship that costs what a Vargur costs, but you shouldn't have to fit T2 rigs to get the ship to perform as well as its counterparts unrigged.

The falloff bonus is simply to low. Double it, and the ship will perform with Autocannons as well as any other Maurauder, and way better close range ("Help me, I'm melting!" says Xevni Jipon).

Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.25 00:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
There is nothing wrong with the Vargur that a boost to its falloff bonus won't fix. It does really good out to 60km or so with T2 falloff rigs. Not that those are very expensive items to fit to a ship that costs what a Vargur costs, but you shouldn't have to fit T2 rigs to get the ship to perform as well as its counterparts unrigged.

The falloff bonus is simply to low. Double it, and the ship will perform with Autocannons as well as any other Maurauder, and way better close range ("Help me, I'm melting!" says Xevni Jipon).




At 60km, you are going to be doing 1/2 damage with AC's. Thats heaps less than the damage an arty Mael can lay down at that range.

Doubling the falloff bonus will make it too powerful for PvP as it will have a much wider range of operation vs laser and blaster boats with high DPS. People will fit it with ECCM and fly it for that reason.

Eneela M
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:34:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25
Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53
Originally by: zayanka
If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank

3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Cap Recharger II

4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L
2 tractor beams and 1 salvager
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit II

And also it is completely cap stable



For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know.

You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds.

Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair.

Sal Alo
Minmatar
Pane e Panelle
Posted - 2008.03.26 05:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Eneela M
Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25
Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53
Originally by: zayanka
If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank

3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Cap Recharger II

4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L
2 tractor beams and 1 salvager
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit II

And also it is completely cap stable



For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know.

You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds.

Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair.


This is the real minmatar problem, not just vargur plus we need a larger amount of skill.

Liu
Posted - 2008.03.26 09:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Asestorian
The only reason it doesn't have more powergrid is because that would make it too powerful in PvP, which is exactly what CCP don't want, as these are PvE ships. The issue comes from the differences between ACs and Artys. While it is annoying, the answer cannot be to add more powergrid, so another solution must be found.


well, CCP could give the vargur a special 10% per level to arty fitting ease, just like covert ops have with cloaks.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:24:00 - [19]
 

CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield.

If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first...

Liu
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield.

If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first...


i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder.

Alrich
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:41:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Liu
Originally by: Shadowsword
CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield.

If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first...


i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder.


at the cost of what bonus? they cant add another bonus just to fix it, it needs the same amount of bonuses as the other marauders

Dahak2150
Arm of Orion
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Eneela M
Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:37:25
Edited by: Eneela M on 25/03/2008 12:34:53
Originally by: zayanka
If you cant fit this ship, then stop moaning about it. As an example Paladin cannot fit 2 LAR and tachyons, because it is not supposed to fit it. But if you use faction modules, then everything fits, without sacrificing your tank

3 Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
3 x Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Cap Recharger II

4 x Republic Fleet 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, EMP L
2 tractor beams and 1 salvager
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit II

And also it is completely cap stable



For a paladin you can fit 1x LAR, 4x tachy II's and a nanobot + aux nano and it tanks any lvl 4 mission. No fitting mods required. Same setup goes for the kronos and 425's - these are very popular setups as i'm sure you know.

You're kind of missing the point with faction fits anyway, yes that setup fits but how much does it cost, over 2b? Compare your setup to a plain tech 2 paladin that costs less than 100m to fit and you'll quickly see the paladin does considerably more DOT, spend 2b on the paladin and it would blow your vargur into the weeds.

Spending 2b on a ship just to make it almost compare to other races isn't what I'd call fair.


Except in order to have a T2 fit you need fitting mods, negating one of your points. The better way is to faction fit, which significantly increase the pricetag in your example.

Let's stop with this blatant and failed manipulation of numbers.

Liu
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Alrich
Originally by: Liu
Originally by: Shadowsword
CCP already stated they wouldn't give more grid to the Vargur because they don't want an AC+Neut solopnwmobile, who could nuke both the enemy and it's onw cap while still firing and passively regarging it's shield.

If you want to correct it, ask CCP to up the powergrid requirments of autocanons, first...


i already answered that. CCP could give a special arty fitting bonus to the vargur, so that without boosting its powergrid, it could fit long range weapons, just like any other marauder.


at the cost of what bonus? they cant add another bonus just to fix it, it needs the same amount of bonuses as the other marauders


no sir, what i needs is to be able to use long range weapons like the other marauders, even if it means giving her a special bonus.

Slide
Posted - 2008.03.26 11:07:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Slide on 27/03/2008 12:53:16
Here is a little mat, i fitted all 4 Marauders with their smallest large range tech 2 weapon only, no other module fitted, i took a all lvl 5 skill to make it even for all.

Myself i fly a Vargur and swapped from artillery to AC's to try that out, i only use the Vargur whith AC's against Angels, all else i use my Maelstrom. Else i would fight in my falloff (loss of dps) all the time if i wouldn't fit a AB to get in range, and beside that after a few months of testing i find the Maelstrom performing better or at least on equal footage against pretty much all non Angel missions.

Paladin: 4 X Dual heavy beam laser II: Powergrid usage: 6.930 / 16.975 , leaves + 9.945 for rest fitting.
Golem: 4 X Cruise Missile launcher II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 8.125 , leaves + 3.399 for rest fitting.
Kronos: 4 X Dual 250mm Railgun II: Powergrid usage: 4.726 / 15.000, leaves + 10.274 for rest fitting.
Vargur: 4 X 1200mm Artillery Cannon II: Powergrid usage: 10.890 / 9.875, leaves - 1.015 for rest fitting.




Slide
Posted - 2008.03.27 12:56:00 - [25]
 

IMHO the best fix would be a small adjustement on the amount of PG artillery uses, as a side bonus.

EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2008.03.27 14:40:00 - [26]
 

EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered.
And yes i fly minmatar.

Liu
Posted - 2008.03.27 14:55:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Slide
IMHO the best fix would be a small adjustement on the amount of PG artillery uses, as a side bonus.


if you mean, a bonus to arty fitting on the vargur, yes. if you mean a general decrease of arty PG, no.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2008.03.27 15:10:00 - [28]
 

They could replace the tractor beam bonus with the arty fitting ease ;)

Actually they could just add it to the special bonuses, not that being able to fit a full rack of arties would make the Vargur terribly powerful. Adding PG to allow massive ACs+Neuts otoh certainly would...

Slide
Posted - 2008.03.27 16:04:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: EpicFailTroll
EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered.
And yes i fly minmatar.


Not to be rude, but the difference is i fly the ship and tested it for months, where your knowledge comes from EFT only as it seems. No matter how noble your intentions, but i wouldnt call 3 modules (2 rigs and 1 RCU) "only" Especialy not when i can fit 8 1400's on a Maelstrom without using a single mod for it.

EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2008.03.27 17:22:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Slide
Originally by: EpicFailTroll
EFT says that with sufficient skills -which i believe are needed anyway to fly a marauder- you only need 2 ACR rigs and one RCU II to fit a full rack of 1400s II, no ab tho. Considering how artillery works and the vargur bonus i believe it may even be overpowered.
And yes i fly minmatar.


Not to be rude, but the difference is i fly the ship and tested it for months, where your knowledge comes from EFT only as it seems. No matter how noble your intentions, but i wouldnt call 3 modules (2 rigs and 1 RCU) "only" Especialy not when i can fit 8 1400's on a Maelstrom without using a single mod for it.



How dare you question the wisdom originating from EFT... Also though you can fit a full rack of 1400s and a XL sb on a Malestrosm you need a module to fit an AB which is badly needed as its as fast as a carrier, also you need speed mods in the lows since it turns twice as slow as a mammoth. Lots of wasted slots to compensate. But I guess you're a rich speculator faction fitting his shield tank, you just ctrl+space and f1-f8 without moving whatsoever... we know your kind...

Trolling aside, i find a tempest runs quicker missions than a malestrosm for aforementioned reasons. So the hueg dmg bonus on the Vargur Vikernes appeals to me, even if i have to put 2 RCU IIs and 2 ACR to fit a full rack of 1400 and a cap injector. T2 setup not faction.


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