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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2008.03.23 21:46:00 - [1]
 

How does this work? There is one or two players that I trust, who might be willing to fly as escorts if I have to move something valuable, if I pay them a modest fee, but how does escorting work? What do escort ships do? How do they do it? What ships should they be and what should they fit?

The only thing I know about at all, in this area, is scouting, but that seems more appropriate for low-sec or 0.0, and if your corp is in some alliance, with everybody else clearly marked as red or blue or green.

This will be high-sec only freight moving, so what can a scout look out for? Low security standing players only? anything else?

What other roles are there for escorts, escorting Freighters or Haulers in high-sec+

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.23 21:51:00 - [2]
 

The way it works (this would have been better asked as a reply to GamesGuy's answer):

You have a scout (usually a webbing ship of some kind). His job is to jump through ahead of you and make sure that there aren't 20 domis lined up on the other side of the gate.

You'll also want to look for sensor boosting interceptors.

He will also web the freighter when the freighter jumps through. This makes the freighter instawarp with some practice.

You also have a suicide battleship/battlecruiser. His job is to attempt to suicide gank something if it looks like you're going to be hosed (thus, preemptively calling down concord on top of the heathens who want to suicide gank you).

Thus, with Concord already at the crime scene, your freighter will be safe from an arbitrarily sized gank squad of suicide battleships.

-Liang

Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:24:00 - [3]
 

Ok. Basic tutorial on hauling in high sec.

First rule of hauling. Don't transport expensive stuff in a regular industrial. No matter what you do you can't protect it against anyone that wants to hurt it. Pretty much anything can pop an industrial before concord arrives, so what you're relying on is that the crap in your cargohold isn't worth blowing you up. That cuts away the profit incentive, but there are still players that would blow you away for ****s&giggles. For stuff that's a bit more expensive, a deep space transport or (if your cargo is quite compact) a blockade runner fitted for agility. If your cargo is VERY compact the best ship is a covert ops. Nothing beats the warp speed of a frigate in combination with a cov ops cloak. For bulk cargo there is of course the freighter.
With a Blockade runner or frigate you just have to keep your eyes open to avoid any trouble.

If you're using a Deep space transport to transport anything valuable or if you're using a freighter you need a scout. It's as simple as that.

So what is the scout looking for? If you're at war with someone, treat it as a normal 0.0 transport/freighter run. If you're not at war, the scout is keeping his eyes open for anything that is hanging around a gate or your undock station and looking like they mean business. What you're looking out for is suicide ships. Now you have to realize that suicide ships have to strike fast and decisively before concord arrives at the scene (because once concord is there any suicide attempt is next to futile), and then scoop up the cargo with some sort of cargoship that's "innocently" watching the situation. If they're doing it for "teh giggles" then they don't need a hauler to scoop things up.
For a freighter suicide ships means A LOT of ships. At least 8+ battleships. It's really not that difficult to detect. In a deep space transport it can be a lot less depending on the security rating of the system. But on the other hand a deep space transport doesn't require a whole lot of time to align either.

If you're flying a freighter you might need these extra "escorts":

1. A webber ship. Someone with multiple webs that drops them on your ship as soon as you uncloak and keeps you webbed until you fly off to the next gate. Why? because Freighters align way too slowly, which means that if they have a spotter at the gate they might have time to warp in their force. OR they might be lurking around cloaked. Your scout should be aware of all of these possibilities. In any case dropping multiple webs on your ship means that you align faster.
2. A suicide battleship equipped with T1 gear. His role is simple. If they blow up your freighter his job is to blow up your wreck and any loot you dropped. The chance that he can rescue your ship once it's caught is quite minimal, but at least they won't profit from it. He also has a secondary role, and that is to keep you informed of any threat approaching from behind (as he should always stay one jump behind you and only jump in as you're being attacked or when you've jumped off for the next gate).

When you're hauling also obey these basic rules:
* Wait for the Oppertune moment. Let things take the time it takes and don't rush things. If the next gate looks fishy and there isn't an easy way around. Dock at a station and wait for things to look less fishy.
* Plan your route. Don't use the most obvious route, don't go into low-sec if you don't have to and avoid heavily populated systems if possible. Overall the statistics tool for the map is one of the most useful intel tools in EVE.
* You're only 100% invulnerable if you're docked. That means that docking is better than running. People play EVE to have fun, so unless they really hate you they're not likely to hang around a station where you're docked. If they do hang around for a while. Log out. Few people are willing to camp an empty station. As said. Wait for the oppertune moment.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

2. A suicide battleship equipped with T1 gear. His role is simple. If they blow up your freighter his job is to blow up your wreck and any loot you dropped. The chance that he can rescue your ship once it's caught is quite minimal, but at least they won't profit from it. He also has a secondary role, and that is to keep you informed of any threat approaching from behind (as he should always stay one jump behind you and only jump in as you're being attacked or when you've jumped off for the next gate).


This ship can also be used to pre-aggress and draw Concord to the scene before the battleships can pop you.

-Liang

Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
This ship can also be used to pre-aggress and draw Concord to the scene before the battleships can pop you.

-Liang


You live, you learn. I honestly hadn't figured out that one.
Thanks for the tip.

Mephik
Caldari
Metaverse Denizens
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:45:00 - [6]
 

Please pardon the noob but I am trying to understand the self-webbing trick that is mentioned.

Does this work by reducing the speed of the ship to force it to align faster for warp? Furthormore I am assuming that the acceleration to warp is not affected and thus makes this trick viable?


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Mephik
Please pardon the noob but I am trying to understand the self-webbing trick that is mentioned.

Does this work by reducing the speed of the ship to force it to align faster for warp? Furthormore I am assuming that the acceleration to warp is not affected and thus makes this trick viable?




I haven't done it, but I know people who have. My understanding of how it works is that the freighters natural velocity is so low that when you web it, it will instantly cross the 3/4's speed threshold and insta-warp (to the point of completely ignoring alignment).

-Liang

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.03.23 23:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mephik
Please pardon the noob but I am trying to understand the self-webbing trick that is mentioned.

Does this work by reducing the speed of the ship to force it to align faster for warp? Furthormore I am assuming that the acceleration to warp is not affected and thus makes this trick viable?




I haven't done it, but I know people who have. My understanding of how it works is that the freighters natural velocity is so low that when you web it, it will instantly cross the 3/4's speed threshold and insta-warp (to the point of completely ignoring alignment).

-Liang


Mostly.
It's not that it means that you don't need to align, but EVE behaves oddly when you jump through a gate.

You'll notice that when you come out of a gate, your ship is pointing some direction in space, cloaked. once you set off in a direction you'll notice that your ship rotates a lot faster than it normally does.

This is because your ship is not, as far as I know, pointed in any direction at all. Once you give yourself a direction vector, EVE treats it as though you had already been pointing in that direction at 0 velocity, even though your ship looks like it's turning on screen.

what this means is that when the freighter (or any ship) decloaks and starts warping, it's not aligning, just accelerating to 3/4 of its max velocity, as it is already pointing in the desired direction. Being webbed puts your current velocity at, oh, 400% of your max velocity, making you warp instantly.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.23 23:26:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

Mostly.
It's not that it means that you don't need to align, but EVE behaves oddly when you jump through a gate.

You'll notice that when you come out of a gate, your ship is pointing some direction in space, cloaked. once you set off in a direction you'll notice that your ship rotates a lot faster than it normally does.

This is because your ship is not, as far as I know, pointed in any direction at all. Once you give yourself a direction vector, EVE treats it as though you had already been pointing in that direction at 0 velocity, even though your ship looks like it's turning on screen.

what this means is that when the freighter (or any ship) decloaks and starts warping, it's not aligning, just accelerating to 3/4 of its max velocity, as it is already pointing in the desired direction. Being webbed puts your current velocity at, oh, 400% of your max velocity, making you warp instantly.


That's an excellent explanation of the system. Thanks!

-Liang

Mephik
Caldari
Metaverse Denizens
Posted - 2008.03.23 23:32:00 - [10]
 

Agreed, that was very helpful and I thank you both for the responses!

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.24 00:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

2. A suicide battleship equipped with T1 gear. His role is simple. If they blow up your freighter his job is to blow up your wreck and any loot you dropped. The chance that he can rescue your ship once it's caught is quite minimal, but at least they won't profit from it. He also has a secondary role, and that is to keep you informed of any threat approaching from behind (as he should always stay one jump behind you and only jump in as you're being attacked or when you've jumped off for the next gate).


This ship can also be used to pre-aggress and draw Concord to the scene before the battleships can pop you.

-Liang


Is there a difference in the size of the Concord response if you suicide with a frig rather than a bs? Otherwise it seems that any size ship will do? Also, if the bs is in the same corp as you, it doesn't provoke a Concord response when it attacks your wreck, right?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.24 01:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Is there a difference in the size of the Concord response if you suicide with a frig rather than a bs? Otherwise it seems that any size ship will do? Also, if the bs is in the same corp as you, it doesn't provoke a Concord response when it attacks your wreck, right?


Yes, there's a difference in the size of the concord response. Mostly, that difference is them sending 0 ships or a normal complement. Gate guns will instapop the frig, and you won't get a concord response. That's the point of the BS - it will survive gate guns long enough for concord to show.

Once concord is there, they'll insta-aggro anyone else on the scene that aggresses anyone else.

And no, concord does not come if you pop a corpie's wrceck.

-Liang

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.24 01:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel

2. A suicide battleship equipped with T1 gear. His role is simple. If they blow up your freighter his job is to blow up your wreck and any loot you dropped. The chance that he can rescue your ship once it's caught is quite minimal, but at least they won't profit from it. He also has a secondary role, and that is to keep you informed of any threat approaching from behind (as he should always stay one jump behind you and only jump in as you're being attacked or when you've jumped off for the next gate).


This ship can also be used to pre-aggress and draw Concord to the scene before the battleships can pop you.

-Liang


Is there a difference in the size of the Concord response if you suicide with a frig rather than a bs? Otherwise it seems that any size ship will do? Also, if the bs is in the same corp as you, it doesn't provoke a Concord response when it attacks your wreck, right?


If the faction police(this includes up to like 10 sentries) kills you before concord spawns, they wont spawn at all.

Hence you need the hit point buffer to survive sentries/customs ships for the 20 seconds till concord spawns.

Xequecal
Posted - 2008.03.24 03:07:00 - [14]
 

How do you avoid losing the webber frig at every gate to CONCORD when he webs you? I suppose you could make an alt in a dummy corp and wardec it, but that seems a lot of time and expense just to move freighters around. And it doesn't work for freighter alts in the noob corp, anyway.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.24 03:11:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Xequecal
How do you avoid losing the webber frig at every gate to CONCORD when he webs you? I suppose you could make an alt in a dummy corp and wardec it, but that seems a lot of time and expense just to move freighters around. And it doesn't work for freighter alts in the noob corp, anyway.


Try joining a player corp. Maybe try having a corpmate help you move. Eve is a multiplayer game... if you're moving your freighter around "solo", and you die to a "gang"... my heart bleeds for you.

-Liang

Xequecal
Posted - 2008.03.24 03:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Xequecal
How do you avoid losing the webber frig at every gate to CONCORD when he webs you? I suppose you could make an alt in a dummy corp and wardec it, but that seems a lot of time and expense just to move freighters around. And it doesn't work for freighter alts in the noob corp, anyway.


Try joining a player corp. Maybe try having a corpmate help you move. Eve is a multiplayer game... if you're moving your freighter around "solo", and you die to a "gang"... my heart bleeds for you.

-Liang


I know THAT, the point is a lot of people have their freighters on noobcorp alts to dodge wardecs. How do you web such a freighter without losing your webber frig at every gate?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.24 03:28:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Xequecal

I know THAT, the point is a lot of people have their freighters on noobcorp alts to dodge wardecs. How do you web such a freighter without losing your webber frig at every gate?


I'd have to say that if you're "avoiding" war decs, then you should just get over losing a frig.

-Liang

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2008.03.24 04:34:00 - [18]
 

Some useful replies, thanks.

I won't be able to have a suicide BS for an escort, or even a BC, but I believe I can get one webber frigate to act as scout and webber. It won't be a corp-mate, though, but as far as I can see, that isn't important. Or have I overlooked something? Will the friendly player get concorded if he webs me?

I assume we'd be in a fleet together when we fly like that...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.24 04:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Salpad
Some useful replies, thanks.

I won't be able to have a suicide BS for an escort, or even a BC, but I believe I can get one webber frigate to act as scout and webber. It won't be a corp-mate, though, but as far as I can see, that isn't important. Or have I overlooked something? Will the friendly player get concorded if he webs me?

I assume we'd be in a fleet together when we fly like that...



Yes, he will be concorded.

Xequecal
Posted - 2008.03.24 05:15:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Xequecal

I know THAT, the point is a lot of people have their freighters on noobcorp alts to dodge wardecs. How do you web such a freighter without losing your webber frig at every gate?


I'd have to say that if you're "avoiding" war decs, then you should just get over losing a frig.

-Liang


If you don't "dodge" wardecs, the minimum escort for a freighter full of POS fuel is like 10 people in high sec, let alone a freighter full of expensive ****.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.03.24 05:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Xequecal

If you don't "dodge" wardecs, the minimum escort for a freighter full of POS fuel is like 10 people in high sec, let alone a freighter full of expensive ****.


Its your choice. There's nothing wrong with losing a frigate every jump... they're cheap enough.

-Liang

wolfbuzz
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.24 05:25:00 - [22]
 

I may sound like a noob here, but I didn't know highsec pirating was even a problem. Is it? Or is this just for wars?

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.24 05:27:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Xequecal

If you don't "dodge" wardecs, the minimum escort for a freighter full of POS fuel is like 10 people in high sec, let alone a freighter full of expensive ****.


Its your choice. There's nothing wrong with losing a frigate every jump... they're cheap enough.

-Liang


You don't really need to web every jump, only web if things look bad.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2008.03.24 06:02:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Salpad
Some useful replies, thanks.

I won't be able to have a suicide BS for an escort, or even a BC, but I believe I can get one webber frigate to act as scout and webber. It won't be a corp-mate, though, but as far as I can see, that isn't important. Or have I overlooked something? Will the friendly player get concorded if he webs me?

I assume we'd be in a fleet together when we fly like that...



Yes, he will be concorded.


So the same happens during a mission, if I accidentally blow up a fleet member who's not a corp mate?

Thanks.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2008.03.24 06:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: wolfbuzz
I may sound like a noob here, but I didn't know highsec pirating was even a problem. Is it? Or is this just for wars?


Piracy in high-sec will happen if the pirates think they can come out of it with a profit.

My understanding of how it works is imperfect, so the others in here will probably correct some mistakes in the following, but if my cargo is sufficiently valuable that the pirates can come out with a profit even if they lose 5 battleships to concord, in blowing up my ship, then they will do so, and a 6th pirate will stand by to loot my wreck.

Fortunately, I plan on only carrying cargoes worth 200M to 600M ISK or so, so there shouldn't be much of a problem for me. At least not usually.

A follow-up question to the veteran players:
Should I get a Deep Space Transport too? It would be somewhat painful to skill up for, but if they are significantly more durable than Freighters, then I could perhaps use the Tranport for moving very valuable cargo.

I'm not too keen on it, though. I've spent weeks and weeks skilling up to be able to fly a Freighter, and Deep Space Transports, AFAIK, require me to train two additional skillz to level 5.

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.24 07:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: wolfbuzz
I may sound like a noob here, but I didn't know highsec pirating was even a problem. Is it? Or is this just for wars?


Piracy in high-sec will happen if the pirates think they can come out of it with a profit.

My understanding of how it works is imperfect, so the others in here will probably correct some mistakes in the following, but if my cargo is sufficiently valuable that the pirates can come out with a profit even if they lose 5 battleships to concord, in blowing up my ship, then they will do so, and a 6th pirate will stand by to loot my wreck.

Fortunately, I plan on only carrying cargoes worth 200M to 600M ISK or so, so there shouldn't be much of a problem for me. At least not usually.

A follow-up question to the veteran players:
Should I get a Deep Space Transport too? It would be somewhat painful to skill up for, but if they are significantly more durable than Freighters, then I could perhaps use the Tranport for moving very valuable cargo.

I'm not too keen on it, though. I've spent weeks and weeks skilling up to be able to fly a Freighter, and Deep Space Transports, AFAIK, require me to train two additional skillz to level 5.



If you can fly a freighter, with a 20 minute train you can fly that race's transport.

Freighter is safer than a DST. For high value/low m3 cargo, use a nanoed inty or cov ops, for slightly larger ones, use a nanoed blockade runner.

For hauling expensive stuff into jita, I have a fully trimarked plated mega with shield extenders that does nothing but ferry my expensive loot one jump into jita. This is your insurance against lag. If you don't want to use a bs, a freighter will work as well.

Xequecal
Posted - 2008.03.24 17:03:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Xequecal

If you don't "dodge" wardecs, the minimum escort for a freighter full of POS fuel is like 10 people in high sec, let alone a freighter full of expensive ****.


Its your choice. There's nothing wrong with losing a frigate every jump... they're cheap enough.

-Liang


...You also have to wait at least 20-30 minutes after every jump for your escort to fit another frigate and rejoin you.

Sergo Mor'Zert
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Salpad

Piracy in high-sec will happen if the pirates think they can come out of it with a profit.

My understanding of how it works is imperfect, so the others in here will probably correct some mistakes in the following, but if my cargo is sufficiently valuable that the pirates can come out with a profit even if they lose 5 battleships to concord, in blowing up my ship, then they will do so, and a 6th pirate will stand by to loot my wreck.

Fortunately, I plan on only carrying cargoes worth 200M to 600M ISK or so, so there shouldn't be much of a problem for me. At least not usually.

A follow-up question to the veteran players:
Should I get a Deep Space Transport too? It would be somewhat painful to skill up for, but if they are significantly more durable than Freighters, then I could perhaps use the Tranport for moving very valuable cargo.

I'm not too keen on it, though. I've spent weeks and weeks skilling up to be able to fly a Freighter, and Deep Space Transports, AFAIK, require me to train two additional skillz to level 5.



Pirates get paid insurance after they lose ship to concord so only true lose is t1 equipment becouse prices of some ships made insurance payout high enough to cover buying new ship and insurance cost in same time. You look at 10-20m loss top on suicidal bs, so 600m cargo against 5 suiciders will net them 100m profit each.

But for blowing up freighter you need more than 5 battleships if its suicidal gank not war.

Perfect Diamond
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:41:00 - [29]
 

Answer me this:

Last time I checked, a person can create courier contract. Whether it's made by His alt, whatever.

So question: When destroying a ship with a package for a courier contract. Does the contents get exposed? Or does scanning a ship expose what items are in the courier package.

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.25 11:26:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Tasko Pal on 25/03/2008 11:26:57
Originally by: Sergo Mor'Zert
Originally by: Salpad

Piracy in high-sec will happen if the pirates think they can come out of it with a profit.

My understanding of how it works is imperfect, so the others in here will probably correct some mistakes in the following, but if my cargo is sufficiently valuable that the pirates can come out with a profit even if they lose 5 battleships to concord, in blowing up my ship, then they will do so, and a 6th pirate will stand by to loot my wreck.

Fortunately, I plan on only carrying cargoes worth 200M to 600M ISK or so, so there shouldn't be much of a problem for me. At least not usually.

A follow-up question to the veteran players:
Should I get a Deep Space Transport too? It would be somewhat painful to skill up for, but if they are significantly more durable than Freighters, then I could perhaps use the Tranport for moving very valuable cargo.

I'm not too keen on it, though. I've spent weeks and weeks skilling up to be able to fly a Freighter, and Deep Space Transports, AFAIK, require me to train two additional skillz to level 5.



Pirates get paid insurance after they lose ship to concord so only true lose is t1 equipment becouse prices of some ships made insurance payout high enough to cover buying new ship and insurance cost in same time. You look at 10-20m loss top on suicidal bs, so 600m cargo against 5 suiciders will net them 100m profit each.

But for blowing up freighter you need more than 5 battleships if its suicidal gank not war.


But doesn't only about half the cargo survive? I'm thinking that five suiciders against a 600m cargo get maybe 40-50 mil apiece expected after costs. Still decent. And given current mineral prices, I doubt the bs are not as cheap as you claim. IIRC, a domi sells for 50+ mil, insurance cost of 18 mil, and pays out somewhere just shy of 60 mil. So about 10 mil isk for the ship itself.


 

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