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BloodRaven2
Posted - 2008.03.25 18:24:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: BloodRaven2 on 25/03/2008 18:30:16
I think DDD and Titans are fine. You just have to tweak the damage output a little bit.

1st of all make DD do more Damage. 500,000, but make sure that that 500K damage gets distributed evenly between targets it hits and maybe even bypass resistances.

Lets say you have 100 man gang and titan activates its DDD and all targets take only 5000 damage. Sounds like a huge nerf to titans since ppl will just start blobing even more.

But keep in mind some alliances mentioned in this thread have 6-10 titans by now and able to field a lot of them at the same time. Atr least this way they will be more then jump bridge machines and it will make titan owners fly them in bunches and at least risk something against large fleets.

Conclusion: 1-2 Titans should have an advantage against small fleets (40-50 ships), but in no way it should be an i-win button against 200-400 fleets.

My 2 cents, might be dumb idea, but at least its an idea

Vinchester
Posted - 2008.03.25 19:15:00 - [122]
 

introduce t2 titans. 2x stronger, 50x more resources needed to build. YARRRR!!

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.25 19:23:00 - [123]
 

I'd imagine a counter could be developed for a whole lot less than the cost to build that...

... just a hunch.

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.03.25 19:27:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild
The dooms day device should never have been put into the game in my opinion. You can't balance something like this. It's impossible. Maybe if it had a more limited range, but not in the way it exists today.

"titans were never meant to be balanced. it's a huge ****!"

Hermosa Diosas
Posted - 2008.03.25 19:28:00 - [125]
 

limit it - 1 titan per alliance - simple problem solved

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.25 21:30:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 25/03/2008 21:32:27
Originally by: Hermosa Diosas
limit it - 1 titan per alliance - simple problem solved

Oh dear.....

I have myself 2 titans....
What'll I do, what'll I do....
Damn, I bet nobody else thought I'd create two alliances! Aren't I SNEAKY?!?!?!

Number limits (like in 'X per Y') has shown themselves not to work in EVE in almost all cases as they're easy to circumvent.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.25 21:31:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: BloodRaven2
I think DDD and Titans are fine. You just have to tweak the damage output a little bit.

1st of all make DD do more Damage. 500,000, but make sure that that 500K damage gets distributed evenly between targets it hits and maybe even bypass resistances.

Lets say you have 100 man gang and titan activates its DDD and all targets take only 5000 damage. Sounds like a huge nerf to titans since ppl will just start blobing even more.

But keep in mind some alliances mentioned in this thread have 6-10 titans by now and able to field a lot of them at the same time. Atr least this way they will be more then jump bridge machines and it will make titan owners fly them in bunches and at least risk something against large fleets.

Conclusion: 1-2 Titans should have an advantage against small fleets (40-50 ships), but in no way it should be an i-win button against 200-400 fleets.

My 2 cents, might be dumb idea, but at least its an idea

The titans DD was originally thought out as a weapon to combat big blobs, and the main thing CCP messed up was that it was also effective against small gangs.....

FuQue
Posted - 2008.03.25 21:50:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: FuQue on 25/03/2008 21:56:09
Hell, just allow people to build Dyson Spheres and be done with it.

Edit: Actually I surprise myself. This could be a really cool way to control sov.

smitor
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.25 21:58:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

The titans DD was originally thought out as a weapon to combat big blobs, and the main thing CCP messed up was that it was also effective against small gangs.....



you are right, the pricetag for a DD should be much higher (maybe 1 bln or 2) and the duration between effect and damage should be shorter. Like a smartbomb.
This way it wouldnt be worthwhile to "bomb" small gangs but instead focus on "blobs".

However this whole thing always has and always will have one drawback. The players dont want any working anti-blob tool.
You will always find the argument "one guy killing with one click 100 others" brought up. The solution to blobbing actually gets turned into an issue.
Pretty much like the op of this thread stated. IF a faction gets 25 ! active titan pilots and 25 titans in one grid at one time and does not suffer lag it would theoretically be possible to DD a carrier fleet.
On paper that sounds harsh but that is pretty much the reality in every small > big comparison. The isk vs player ratio works like that. By investing more isk you can actually beat an outnumbering opponent.
Its just that there is a part of the playerbase who doesnt like that fact and tries swing the blanace towards "more players = instant win".

To close this post lets just get to the conclusion that both titans and the gamemechanics are broken. CCP wants to fight blobbing because their servers cant handle blobs but they dont want ppl to have the needed tools, they dont want to hardcode or force a solution on ppl and they dont provide any outlook. Instead they keep soldiering on, hoping things will fix themself, which outlines pretty much the current situation, especially if you consider what failboats bombers developed into and what could have been made of marauders or blackops or another new shipclass to fight blobs. Instead we get slightly better pve ships and prenerfed stealthships and rorquals who need nerfs to other ships, re:carriers, just to get a justification ingame, AFTER they were implemented.

Farham
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:23:00 - [130]
 

"Apparently at least 1 alliance is well on its way to double digit Titans so it's not beyond the realms of possibility in the near future."

There is an alliance already in double digits and it isn't BOB.

Atomos Darksun
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:27:00 - [131]
 

There has been discussion (not in ccp as far as I know, mind you) about gitting rid of DD's and just turning the Titan into one gigantic logistical machine. Personally I think it would be epic to just have a titan in system with a clone vat bay just sitting there and constantly having people grab more ships.

Mobile cyno jammer?

cap guns on a titan useful?

the list goes on!

Orree
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:27:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
What they need to do is a add a small thermal exhaust port to Titan designs...



Yeah...one right below the main port. Perfect.



Orree
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:56:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 24/03/2008 20:15:21
<snip>
Alliances will live and die as they always have in EVE. Live when they're strong and cohesive, die when they're weak and fracture internally.

<snip>



This right here. As you say, titans won't change that.

That said, I wish they had never been added to the game...same with every other capital, barring perhaps the freighters.


I just don't like what they "add" to the game.


Liilli Lee
Caldari
Posted - 2008.03.26 08:31:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
The DDD is the i-win button, not the Titan itself. If you want to go by numbers, you could likewise create an i-win button by having hundreds of Dreads or Moms present on a single battlefield. We've already established how many Titans it takes to kill a capital ship, and a Titan can't tank hundreds of capital turrets all hitting it at once, especially if the Titan is webbed to a dead crawl and the Dreads have siege mods activated. For that reason it's the DDD that needs fixing, not Titans. Either nerf the DDD or boost it (see suicidal overload idea), if it's such a problem.

I still advocate for boosting of the Titan's other abilities, particularly its point defenses.


At any given time I'd prefer a "I-win" button shared by the hands of hundreds of capitals pilots rather than at the hand of a single ship.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.03.26 08:39:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

The titans DD was originally thought out as a weapon to combat big blobs, and the main thing CCP messed up was that it was also effective against small gangs.....



What CCP really screwed up is that they didn't remove the NEED for blobbing.

You can't put down a cyno jammer without a blob, and the introduction of POS Gunners made it worse.

You can't kill a large sovereignty POS without a blob.

You can't disable station service in a reasonable time without a blob.

If you don't blob, the enemy sure will.

Until those points are adressed, doomsdays simply shouldn't exist.

Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.03.26 09:31:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Anson Halleck
Don't you think that alliance capable of building ~1.5 Trillion ISK cap fleet should be able to cause some serious damage?

No. Nobody should be able to evaporate an entire enemy fleet at the push of a button because it's not fun. As for wiping out enemy capital fleets its just not even fair. Especially considering there are certain alliances whose moon mining outfits make them a trillion isk per month.


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:04:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Vitrael
No. Nobody should be able to evaporate an entire enemy fleet at the push of a button because it's not fun.

If an FC is stupid enough to put his fleet in a situation to be DD'd, they deserve to die.

He'll (hopefully) learn from it, become a better FC. His fleet members will (hopefully) learn from it and start to align, etc. etc.

EVE is darwinian!

Besides, DD's are really a moot issue. They're not generally used much anymore... CCP's titan nerf was effective for that and Titans are now mostly logistics platforms with a rarely used option for wiping out fleets that does something stupid.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:05:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kerfira
The titans DD was originally thought out as a weapon to combat big blobs, and the main thing CCP messed up was that it was also effective against small gangs.....



What CCP really screwed up is that they didn't remove the NEED for blobbing.

You can't put down a cyno jammer without a blob, and the introduction of POS Gunners made it worse.

You can't kill a large sovereignty POS without a blob.

You can't disable station service in a reasonable time without a blob.

If you don't blob, the enemy sure will.

Until those points are adressed, doomsdays simply shouldn't exist.

Even if CCP removed the need for blobbing, people would still do it. You underestimate the cowardliness of people in large groups....

If CCP wanted to remove blobbing, they'd need to make it more dangerous to blob than to not blob. Titans were an attempt at doing that.

Rose Nuke
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.03.26 10:55:00 - [139]
 

how about make dooms days cover a whole system and do enoguh dmg to say nearly kill a mothership ( but not quiet) and hit pos's etc but have it stuck unable to do anything for say 2 hours so would be very stratigic in using it and also remove turret hard points so can't just sit 5 on a cyno jammer and be fine with it

Rook Highwind
Posted - 2008.03.26 12:27:00 - [140]
 

On a closely related note, how many Titans are there now? The last count I've seen was from quite a while back, when I gather there were 3 Avatars (one of which got iced). I know others have been built since then, but I've never seen a really up to date count, even a rough estimate.

Or is that the kind of intel people pay for? :P

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.03.26 12:59:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Rook Highwind
On a closely related note, how many Titans are there now? The last count I've seen was from quite a while back, when I gather there were 3 Avatars (one of which got iced). I know others have been built since then, but I've never seen a really up to date count, even a rough estimate.

Or is that the kind of intel people pay for? :P


Last confirmed count is 33.

Estimates I've seen range as high as 60. Though if the guy that says there is an alliance already with double digits titans is correct, 60 might be a low estimate.

But lets say 33 for now.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.03.26 13:09:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Kerfira


snip...



The problem is what the ability to drop a titan at any moment on any gang means for warfare. We have not reached that critical mass yet in most of Eve, but I would dare to bet that any battleship gang of more than 20 that goes running around BoB space in Delve right now has a significant chance to just get a titan dropped on top of them and get wiped out without a fight. I remember Tri mentioning/complaining that Morsus Mihi dropped a number of titans on their roaming gangs.

That will only get worse. As titans become more prolific, it becomes easier to field more and more of them, and field them 23/7. Once an alliance can field 2 or more titans on a 23/7 basis, they become nigh invincible in their primary systems.

At the same time, everyone who wants to just have fun roams around space without nano***ging all the time gets screwed. I remember Outbreak sending a significant fleet to AZN over 2 years ago. If ASCN were still alive today, that fleet would have been obliterated by titans on jump in. I remember BoB's Easter egg hunt all across Eve also about 2 years ago I think. Today that would most likely end somewhere in Tribute with 5 Morsus Mihi titans blasting the **** out of it.

Every major engagement is going to be decided by a few people pushing the F1 button, and not like it used to be by the involvement of all pilots. Attacks on systems will be decided by whether or not the defender manages to have a few titans ready to defend. If they are there, the fight is over because I see noone able to take down a cynojammer while being defended by several titans.

And as the numbers rise, other ships will be marginalised more and more until you are going to have to tell new players that once maybe they could have been of some help in their tackling rifter, but now they are gonna need to train for a year and spend 2 billion on a carrier or a dread or be wiped off the battlefield in the opening volley of any big fight.

Terraform
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.26 13:31:00 - [143]
 

Titans should never have been brought into the game the way they did, it's too easy for people to get their hands on one as soon as it's a big alliance, and it can field limitless numbers of them.

I must agree this does spell doom for 0.0 space all together, let's hope CCP finds some way to fix it, not nerf it, FIX IT!

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.26 13:45:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 26/03/2008 13:52:09
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Above post #142

But then, why aren't we seeing at least the start of that already?

It seems to me that BoB with their 8(?) titans should be doing this if the tactic was valid, but I took the liberty of looking at BoB's KB and see when their titan pilots (taken from the list in this thread) had their two last significant DD:

Shrike: 03/feb/08, 02/feb/08
Orange Species: 07/mar/08, 05/jan/2008
Fire Hawk: 06/feb/08 (only one)
Nirana: No DD's
Anna Valerious: No DD's
Stumpan: 07/mar/08, 02/feb/08
Zondran: 17/mar/08 (only one, catching 1 vagabond)
Jake Noble: No DD's

So BoB, with their 8 Titans, has used DD's on average one day per week over the last 2 months!

I'm sorry, but the facts of how DD's are used (at least the BoB ones) does NOT support any of your arguments.
In fact, they indicate that CCP's nerf of titans was successful with regard to the DD. Titans are much more used for their jump portal these days than for DD'ing.
If an alliance started dropping titans on 20 man gangs, they'd soon be without that titan because people would start baiting and having caps on standby to kill that titan.

The scenario you're painting is a scare scenario with very little facts (if any at all) to back it up.

Mardig
Posted - 2008.03.26 13:45:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: SiJira
can we fix everything i dont personally own or have the ability to get without a lot of work by making it useless?


This quote wins, thread over. Laughing

Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.03.27 03:08:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Vitrael
No. Nobody should be able to evaporate an entire enemy fleet at the push of a button because it's not fun.

If an FC is stupid enough to put his fleet in a situation to be DD'd, they deserve to die.


how do you avoid a DD when everyone is desynced and no one can see it arrive on grid, or when there's multi-minute module lag because of 400 fighters on grid and you have no chance of being able to warp out in time?

Julius Romanus
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.27 03:57:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Kransthow
Two words: node crash


Yup.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.03.27 04:04:00 - [148]
 

This is the problem with an alpha feature of a game.

It plagues every game whether it is an alpha item or alpha class. If you make such an item in time folks will gravitate to it.

The major advantage in EVE is the time needed to pilot the ship, most accounts never last that long. That means that the pool that will train to titan is smaller.

The cost is another factor.

However it is possible that someone will eventually get that many titans, I wouldn't expect it before another couple years, mainly because alliances are fluid, corps move in and out (as seen by recent departure from RA...who I would have figured before that able to do this).

The solution though is not very diffult to imagine. It's another ship.

A Shield Ship. This ship would have a bubble force field like that of a POS and would have perhaps some other features. It would take fuel to power its force field, which could be stronger but perhaps tighter than a POS shield. You could even make different sizes. ( Small Shield Ship on a cruiser/battlecruiser hull, Shield Ship on a battleship hull, and Capital Shield Ship on a carrier/dreadnought hull).

The ship would have otherwise probably minimal combat ability, it would be a sort of logistics ship. (Perhaps requiring Logistics as a prerequisite).


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.27 08:30:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 27/03/2008 08:34:27
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Vitrael
No. Nobody should be able to evaporate an entire enemy fleet at the push of a button because it's not fun.

If an FC is stupid enough to put his fleet in a situation to be DD'd, they deserve to die.

how do you avoid a DD when everyone is desynced and no one can see it arrive on grid, or when there's multi-minute module lag because of 400 fighters on grid and you have no chance of being able to warp out in time?

The FC knows that (or should if he's in any way competent), thus we're back to the part of my post that I've put in bold above.

Lag & desync is the 'weather' of EVE and every FC worth the name takes it into account before committing. Your complaint is not about titans, but about lag and desync which are different problems.

Besides, your post displays a lack of knowledge about how wars in EVE are won.
They're NOT won by attacking heavily defended targets with alert and determined defenders.
They're won by gradually grinding those defenders down by killing their fleets/ratters/miners/explorers/etc (ie. showing then you're better players than they) until they don't have the will left to defend that previously heavily defended target. THEN you move in and take it!


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