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Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.18 22:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Merdaneth on 18/03/2008 23:04:00
A few days ago a message was relayed to me by acquaintances in Heimatar. The message contained a sad story.

The message was sent to me by a small family of slaves, which were stolen from their Amarrian masters some time ago by terrorists. After this theft they were brought to the Republic and put into some kind of program. While in this program they were unable to practice religion, and when they insisted on returning to Domain as slaves they were first ridiculed and eventually turned out on the street by their so-called liberators.

Without a master or resources, they entered into debt to secure food and shelter for themselves. During the past few weeks this debt had risen to as much as 42,000 isk, a sum they could never hope to repay. They were at the mercy of their debtors, who threatened them with physical violence. They pleaded to me to help them out of their predicament.

Moved by their plight I immediately returned a message, promising them I would pay off their debts and return them to Amarr space personally. Once back they would remain in my possession until the time their rightful master would come and claim them, again free to practice their religion and do the good works of Our Lord.

I flew my Crusader class interceptor to Heimatar, and after some brief patrols to identify possible interlopers, I docked at the Republic Security station in Pator where I handed their last debtor, one Mac Deschain, the isk to free them from their obligations. After this they quickly boarded my Crusader and I took off.

Once aboard they abased themselves before me, and told me they had heard of many more stolen slaves in similar straits. I interfaced with the comm networks, and indeed, there were many more stolen slaves desperate to return to Amarr but unable to because of debts. At their request I traveled to Rens and took on another family after paying of their debts.

At that time I was being chased by many terrorists and criminals, from such organizations as Ushra’Khan, Electus Matari and Strix. I evaded their attempts to destroy my ship and traveled to Ossogur. There I submitted myself to a customs check by Matari customs vessels, for I had heard that transporting person with a slave status was illegal in high-security Republic space, and this was the last checkpoint before entering low-security space. Fortunately, everything checked out and I was able to pass customs without incident.

Within 15 minutes I was able to dock at the Emperor Family Station in Amarr, bringing these desperate families safely to their rightful home.

Furthermore, I have publically offered 1,000 isk for each stolen slave in Heimatar that desires to come back home. I sincerely hope that anyone who currently has a stolen slave that owes him money will do the right thing and hand over possession of them to me.

Let anyone who desires to help me returning these slaves please come forward and contact me.

Ikasu
Gallente
Scrutari
Posted - 2008.03.18 23:16:00 - [2]
 

I generally take pod pilots words for it on the IGS....maybe, but this does kind of smell like propaganda. The anti-slavers I know generally allows slaves to return to Amarr on request after no more then, say, a week or so of convincing. The screenshots do show some interest though, I await the response of the holder or someone in general with an explanation of this incident. It's not my business but I'm interested in watching this thread.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.18 23:44:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Merdaneth on 18/03/2008 23:44:33
Originally by: Ikasu
I generally take pod pilots words for it on the IGS....maybe, but this does kind of smell like propaganda. The anti-slavers I know generally allows slaves to return to Amarr on request after no more then, say, a week or so of convincing. The screenshots do show some interest though, I await the response of the holder or someone in general with an explanation of this incident. It's not my business but I'm interested in watching this thread.


I do not know if it is practice among the 'anti-slavers' as you call them allow their slaves to return freely. These anti-slavers usually don't inform me of their practices. I do think it is entirely possible that I just stumbled upon a few isolated incidents. After all, it is not like I receive messages of this kind daily.

Perhaps the anti-slavers present here on the IGS could inform me what they do with slaves that they have stolen, but who wish to return to Amarr.

Darius Shakor
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.03.19 00:11:00 - [4]
 

Ohh I am pretty sure you could spin as many tales as you wish about poor souls in Minmatar space, whatever makes your case for slavery seem all the more justified. Though it would take a blind man to believe slavery is somehow justified.

As for your so called claim of being 'passed' by customs, your visual proof is completely laughable. You neither sumitted to a scan nor were given clearance. You would have warped to the gates at jump range if you were being chased meaning you jumped before the scan. Your own NeoCom readout indicates your 'closest object' to be the Amamake gate meaning you were outbound. Customs do not have the time to even scan you in such a situation let alone stop you when you are outbound. Thats why customs agents only busy themselves with scanning inbound ships at the gates.

If you are going to flat out lie at this, then I doubt your whole stories honesty.

Ituralde
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.03.19 00:47:00 - [5]
 

The biggest crime here is the Crusader kit really.

Ikasu
Gallente
Scrutari
Posted - 2008.03.19 04:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Edited by: Merdaneth on 18/03/2008 23:44:33
Originally by: Ikasu
I generally take pod pilots words for it on the IGS....maybe, but this does kind of smell like propaganda. The anti-slavers I know generally allows slaves to return to Amarr on request after no more then, say, a week or so of convincing. The screenshots do show some interest though, I await the response of the holder or someone in general with an explanation of this incident. It's not my business but I'm interested in watching this thread.


I do not know if it is practice among the 'anti-slavers' as you call them allow their slaves to return freely. These anti-slavers usually don't inform me of their practices. I do think it is entirely possible that I just stumbled upon a few isolated incidents. After all, it is not like I receive messages of this kind daily.

Perhaps the anti-slavers present here on the IGS could inform me what they do with slaves that they have stolen, but who wish to return to Amarr.


I can tell you with a lot of honesty that most anti-slaver people I've discussed dedicate something to the newly found freedom of their "rescue-es," even if they intend to use that new freedom to return to slavery. I don't intend to argue right or wrong or my own opinion here, but in regards to this thread I think you hit an isolated incident. Just as you have to admit there are torturous slavers, there are Matari super-extremists as well. Just as I have to admit to Gallente drug dealers existing and Caldari have to admit to...something bad for them too I guess.

Anyway, like you I look forward to the response of more active anti slavers.

P.S: Most people on Galnet already know my less-then-positive opinion on slavery, so I don't intend to discuss it here. I guess I tire of arguing about it anyway.

Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2008.03.19 05:54:00 - [7]
 

If your story is true, and the situation was as described, you've done those people a great service Merdaneth, I guess even slavery can be turned to a positive.

Well done.

Vlad Konstantinov
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.19 12:22:00 - [8]
 

Even though the amount of livestock that was returned to the Empire was small, it is still a move in the right direction.

Well done.

Darius Shakor
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.03.19 12:59:00 - [9]
 

Purchasing and trafficing of slaves in the Republic in direct contravention to Republic law (something PIE has stated in past propaganda stunts they have not done) is a step in the right direction?

Interesting...

Darius Shakor
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.03.19 13:00:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Darius Shakor on 19/03/2008 13:00:28
Originally by: Hori To
If your story is true, and the situation was as described, you've done those people a great service Merdaneth, I guess even slavery can be turned to a positive.

Well done.


You were once Masuat'aa. Once proud.

Now, so sad.

Malleus Andropov
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.19 17:38:00 - [11]
 

Suffering is universal.

It is a tragic irony that organisations that claim to "liberate" slaves in fact increase their suffering.

I'm sad that war is waged between extremists in the republic and loyalist forces over this suffering, and that acts in these wars increase the suffering of the very people the war is waged over.

I hope the readers can read past my allegiance... or Merdaneth's allegiance and see that you cannot "enforce" liberty... Liberty has to come from within, from a personal motivation and a personal achievment.

The Amarr have a very long tradition in liberating people... and a lot more experience with it then the Minmatar Republic.

GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.03.19 17:40:00 - [12]
 

Quote:
I do not know if it is practice among the 'anti-slavers' as you call them allow their slaves to return freely.


I can tell you that I my own practice is to allow FREED slaves the freedom to choose their own future. If these freed people choose to place themselves back into servitude in Amarr space, then I only council against it.

I also allow any ex-slaves placed in my care the freedom of practicing or not practicing the religion of their choice.


What's the point in giving them freedom if I was just going to force them into my views?

Sythra Coratana
Amarr
True Seer
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:24:00 - [13]
 

This entire story saddens me, both their experience in the Republic, and the fact that they chose to return to the Empire. Provided of course, that part is true. Assuming that it is, however, they are naturally free to choose their allegiances. I just hope they realize the one they chose is, for the most part, a one-way path.

They won't have the option of turning around.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:33:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Darius Shakor
As for your so called claim of being 'passed' by customs, your visual proof is completely laughable. You neither sumitted to a scan nor were given clearance. You would have warped to the gates at jump range if you were being chased meaning you jumped before the scan. Your own NeoCom readout indicates your 'closest object' to be the Amamake gate meaning you were outbound. Customs do not have the time to even scan you in such a situation let alone stop you when you are outbound. Thats why customs agents only busy themselves with scanning inbound ships at the gates.

If you are going to flat out lie at this, then I doubt your whole stories honesty.


Mr. Shakor, I do not lie. Lying is a sin. Perhaps you encounter many liars among your kinfolk, but I am not one of them.

Of course I gathered more visual evidence to support my story. I felt that my word should be enough, and that inundating our readers here with such evidence would not be productive. In the interest of convincing you, I will submit additional pieces of evidence.

Further Evidence

Item 1 - 21:34 EVE time. My Crusader has just arrived at the gate to Ammamake in Ossogur. The nearest custom vessel is 30km away. I signal it that I'm submitting to custom's inspection and fly over.

Item 2 - 21:35 EVE time. I have closed with the customs vessel and submit myself to scanning.

Item 3 - 21:36 EVE time. The original picture, in which I am still following the customs vessel closely to give it time to finish its scan.

Item 4 - 21:36 EVE time. Receiving no objections to my continued journey from the customs vessel, I start to approach the Ammamake gate. As you can see on this image, I am 5km away from the gate, hardly in jumping distance.

Of course it was risky to do this with hostiles possibly in pursuit, but my respect for following proper procedure and local laws, even if they are laws from a malfunctioning entity such as the Republic is too great to break such lightly.

If it is indeed true that Matari customs officials are only concerned with slaves and other contraband entering Republic space, but not with slaves leaving that space, I was not aware. Honestly, given the Republic stance on slavery, I'm somewhat amazed that the laws forbids slaves coming into the Republic but does allow them to pass out freely.

I'll appreciate a public apology for calling me a liar Mr. Shakor.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: GulletSplitter

I can tell you that I my own practice is to allow FREED slaves the freedom to choose their own future. If these freed people choose to place themselves back into servitude in Amarr space, then I only council against it.

I also allow any ex-slaves placed in my care the freedom of practicing or not practicing the religion of their choice.


I am sure there are Matari terrorists that take good care of the slaves they steal. There are good caretakers and poor caretakers, that is true for terrorists as well as slave masters.

However, I sincerely doubt that you will allow the to practice the religion of their choice. Slavery is inherent in Amarr religion for example, and if what you are saying is really true, you would allow people to practice slavery. I doubt that is what you meant. I think you meant that you allow them to practice religion as long as you agree with the practice. Which is the same as the Amarrian way.

Rana Ash
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:47:00 - [16]
 

Usually i would stay away from GalNet transmission like this. But i can not be silent, you put claims of these events on us Matari.
And then you and your kind close your eyes to events like this News Feed

Daziel Iaar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:48:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 19/03/2008 20:54:33
These are not claims, they are facts and the discovery of those slaves upon the bestowers is clearly breaking the law which is mentioned in the article you have provided. I would of thought that proof of slavers within the Minmatar "republic" worse than the findings you have provided.

Rana Ash
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:54:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Daziel Iaar
These are not claims, they are facts.


Riiight, sure. And bunnies can fly Titans

Mr Reeth
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Rana Ash
Usually i would stay away from GalNet transmission like this. But i can not be silent, you put claims of these events on us Matari.
And then you and your kind close your eyes to events like this News Feed


Wrong. We are not closeing our eyes to this. I others like myself are waiting for it to get its own thread... I'm a bit shocked the terrorists haven't jumped on it already. Care to start the thread yourself Ms Ash?

Rana Ash
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.19 21:00:00 - [20]
 

To angry to make a coherent thread, i leave it to more level headed people..

Daziel Iaar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.19 21:00:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mr Reeth
Originally by: Rana Ash
Usually i would stay away from GalNet transmission like this. But i can not be silent, you put claims of these events on us Matari.
And then you and your kind close your eyes to events like this News Feed


Wrong. We are not closeing our eyes to this. I others like myself are waiting for it to get its own thread... I'm a bit shocked the terrorists haven't jumped on it already. Care to start the thread yourself Ms Ash?


They would, but if they were intelligent they would stay clear of it, since it is clear what the two traders has done has nothing to do with the Empire, as well as the fact it is breaking the Empire's law.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.03.19 21:22:00 - [22]
 

The proof of your story is a receipt for the purchase of seven slaves in Pator? Slavery is illegal in Minmatar space -- at least according to the laws, though it's hard to tell at times based on the enforcement. The facts are as follows:

1) Mac Deschain was in illegal possession of seven slaves. Where he obtained them, I couldn't say, but the fact that he was selling them on the market as slaves is proof that their freedom had been stripped from them, possibly by Mac Deschain -- or he obtained them already enslaved and left them in chains to profit from.

2) In a transaction that is blatantly illegal, you bought these slaves from the traitorous scum.

3) You obtained a number of additional slaves from unknown sources.

The rest of your story, I have no trouble believing. I have spoken out against Midular's criminal failure to enforce the bans on ownership and transport of slaves on many occasions, and have called for customs enforcements to apprehend a number of Amarr-flagged vessels transporting slaves illegal in Republic space. Unfortunately, they ignored my calls, forcing me to take justice into my own hands. At least there were those who made the effort to bring your criminal acts to justice.

My story was not believed; perhaps the words of a now-confessed criminal will be.


Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2008.03.19 23:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Darius Shakor

You were once Masuat'aa. Once proud.

Now, so sad.


Praising good deeds are never wrong Darius.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.20 01:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Becq Starforged
The facts are as follows:

1) Mac Deschain was in illegal possession of seven slaves. Where he obtained them, I couldn't say, but the fact that he was selling them on the market as slaves is proof that their freedom had been stripped from them, possibly by Mac Deschain -- or he obtained them already enslaved and left them in chains to profit from.


The only fact you speak of is that the SCC recorded a payment of 42,000 isk and the fact that 7 livestock classified as slaves were transferred to me. Since ownership of slaves is illegal in Matari space, legal transfer of ownership could not have taken place. If you tell me that Republic laws does not apply on Republic station in Pator, I was unaware. You claim that had their freedom stripped from them, but have no basis for this claim. As I said, they have been slaves their entire lives, there was no 'stripping of freedom' involved. It was a case of theft.

Factual possession of the slaves was transfered to me, but I did not at any point become their legal owner, not according to Republic Law, and not according to Amarr law. According to Amarr law they are stolen goods, and their original owner retains their ownership.

Originally by: Becq Starforged
2) In a transaction that is blatantly illegal, you bought these slaves from the traitorous scum.


The fact that the SCC recently began recording these kinds of transaction does not mean they did not take place before, not does it say anything about the legality of said transactions.

I don't believe livestock classified as slaves changed hands is deemed illegal in any way. Although I admit Republic law confuses me. I can freely carry slaves as crew, but once they travel in my cargo compartments, they seem to be classified as illegal?

Originally by: Becq Starforged
3) You obtained a number of additional slaves from unknown sources.


We are in agreement about this final 'fact'

Originally by: Becq Starforged
My story was not believed; perhaps the words of a now-confessed criminal will be.


I'll gladly submit to Republic justice if they indeed think I have committed a crime. I'll be awaiting their message. However, I do believe I have done a good thing, and the Republic should thank me for aiding these poor souls.


Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.03.20 02:53:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Since ownership of slaves is illegal in Matari space, legal transfer of ownership could not have taken place. If you tell me that Republic laws does not apply on Republic station in Pator, I was unaware.

That is precisely what I am telling you. The Republic no longer even makes a half-hearted attempt to enforce anti-slavery laws. I've scanned and reported hundreds of instances of Amarr-flagged vessels (registered to, for example, Imperial Armaments) travelling freely with slave cargos, unhindered by customs despite the evidence I sent them. Your own experiences are further evidence of this.

Naturally, I meted out justice for them, recovering the former slaves, and providing for their food, housing, medical, and other needs. The reason I had to do this was that Midular -- in her limitless wisdom -- shut down the re-education facilities. Luckily for these unfortunates, there are those in organizations such as Ushra'Khan and Electus Matari who are willing and able to do the Republic's job for them.

Finally, to add insult to injury, the SCC division of CONCORD broke its own laws by declaring itself above the local laws of the sovereign empires, and began authorizing illegal trades, such as the one you performed. Make no mistake, though: by buying contraband -- in this case, human lives destined for abuse in the Empire -- and transporting them you have violated the law and are a criminal, by your own confessions. Congradulations. That having been said, CONCORD got it's share of the proceeds and is therefore content, and I suspect Pator itself will burn off it's fuel before Midular's regime enforces Matari law in a meaningful way when it goes against the Empire's. So you are safe. From them.

Originally by: Merdaneth
Factual possession of the slaves was transfered to me, but I did not at any point become their legal owner, not according to Republic Law, and not according to Amarr law.

It's lucky, then that the law refers to possession and tranport, so your legal games regarding 'ownership' are meaningless. You trafficked in slavery, and that's the only relevant part.

Originally by: Merdaneth
According to Amarr law they are stolen goods, and their original owner retains their ownership.

Then I agree wholeheartedly with Amarrian law, and await the transfer of ownership of every slave in the Empire to their original owner -- themselves.

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Becq Starforged
2) In a transaction that is blatantly illegal, you bought these slaves from the traitorous scum.

The fact that the SCC recently began recording these kinds of transaction does not mean they did not take place before, not does it say anything about the legality of said transactions.

You are correct. That it has SCC sanction is meaningless to it's illegality.

Originally by: Merdaneth
I don't believe livestock classified as slaves changed hands is deemed illegal in any way. Although I admit Republic law confuses me. I can freely carry slaves as crew, but once they travel in my cargo compartments, they seem to be classified as illegal?

Once more, in words as simple as I can manage while conveying the meaning: any time you possess or transport an slave being -- as cargo, as crew, or otherwise -- within the Minmatar Republic, the Gallente Federation, or the Caldari State, you are breaking the laws of that government.

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Becq Starforged
My story was not believed; perhaps the words of a now-confessed criminal will be.

I'll gladly submit to Republic justice if they indeed think I have committed a crime. I'll be awaiting their message.

You won't hear from them for the reasons described above. You may hear from less ... official sources.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.20 07:49:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 20/03/2008 07:53:12
First, to the original poster, as to Gradient's stance on people wishing to return. It has never happened to me during my several years working with refugees that we would have had one soul on our incoming transports who would not have been there because they were desperate to get out of the Empire. Certainly none have asked for a passage back. However, I do not know if some of them have changed their minds and returned later. How come I do not? Because they are free people, and after they wish to leave the refugee shelters, they can go wherever they want to. They do not need to let us know. Some do, most do not.

Second, to pilot Starforge: international trade in space is (unfortunately, I believe myself, though some good can come from it) no longer governed by the laws of any one nation. The recent agreement to this effect makes possible for pilots to trade in illegal boosters everywhere, slaves and drugs in the Republic, booze and ****ography in the Empire, and a gazillion other things. While we can discuss the question of whether it was a good idea to completely free pilot trade on space stations (there's arguments for both sides), it was not a decision specific to the Republic, nor indicative of our government's general stance of slavetrade outside of international pilot markets. Trying to use this trade agreement as anti-Republic propaganda is beneath you.

And of course, as you point out, that does not make the transport itself legal. My compliments to all the loyal pilots who were there to try and stop this crime.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Diplomat
Gradient / Electus Matari

(EDITed for diminishing typos.)

GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.03.20 14:58:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: GulletSplitter on 20/03/2008 14:58:59
Quote:
However, I sincerely doubt that you will allow the to practice the religion of their choice. Slavery is inherent in Amarr religion for example, and if what you are saying is really true, you would allow people to practice slavery. I doubt that is what you meant. I think you meant that you allow them to practice religion as long as you agree with the practice. Which is the same as the Amarrian way.


Are you are correct Merdanenth...I should have stated that I allow them to practice their religion as they see fit as long as it does not go counter to the laws of the local government...which in my case is the Republic. As I have none of the freed slaves in my care in Amarr space....it would offer and interesting conundrum if they wanted to keep slaves.

That being said I am pro-freedom (which does not equate to pro-anarchy mind you), I surely would not allow people in my care to practice any sort of denial of freedom to others. Though people in my care are allowed to leave my care pretty much whenever they feel like they could survive on their own.

(ed: changed "mine you" to "mind you"...I have Elsebeth's spelling issues it seems...Razz)

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.03.20 17:21:00 - [28]
 

what will the friendly reader choose?

(_) this is the usual propaganda denying the fact that minmatar slaves in far greater counts
have a far more misreable live within the amarr influenced worlds

(_) they were given a choice, and they choosed to go back.
That choice is not understandable by me - but it has been made. That is freedom too, and that is something they got from their matari liberators.

(_) one would think , someone with honest care in mind, would not come in a war ship into an area where the likehood of crossing path with a war enemy is damn high - carrying civillians.
those kind of jobs a reasonable person would delegate to a non warring corporation with more comfourtable ships, in order not to endanger passengers.

(_) hyppocrats, left hand the whip right hand the moral preaching

(_) when he talks religion he means the amarr god, matari people have their religions
and of course theyre allowed to practise them - even the god believe as far it doesnt
offend others.



Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2008.03.20 19:36:00 - [29]
 

(x) they were given a choice, and they choosed to go back.
That choice is not understandable by me - but it has been made. That is freedom too, and that is something they got from their matari liberators.

Vinerya
The Wings of Maak
Posted - 2008.03.21 13:29:00 - [30]
 

(x) one would think , someone with honest care in mind, would not come in a war ship into an area where the likehood of crossing path with a war enemy is damn high - carrying civillians.
those kind of jobs a reasonable person would delegate to a non warring corporation with more comfourtable ships, in order not to endanger passengers.

(x) hyppocrats, left hand the whip right hand the moral preaching


Amarr paramilitary forces are so reasonable. They would come free every matar from the Republic oppression if we let them do.


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