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Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:29:00 - [1]
 

i want to point out some things about resistances vs boost bonus. we all have our own idea of which is better than the other. but maths do not lie.

if incoming damage is smaller or up to 33% bigger than repaired amount, the 7'5% shield (or armor) boost bonus is better than the 5% shield (or amor) resistances bonus. but it really doesnt matter too much, since both bonus are enough to survive.

if incoming damage is between 33% and 37'5% bigger than repair amount, the 7'5% shield boost bonus is better than the 5% resistances bonus, making the minie or gallente ship survive, while the caldari or ammar ship would eventually go down.

if incoming damage is between 37'5% and 50% bigger than repair amount, the minie&gallente bonus is better than the caldari&amarr bonus, although not enough to survive, the minmatar&gallente ships would last longer

if incoming damage is 50% or more bigger than repair amount, the caldari&amarr ship will last longer but all of them will eventually go down.

this means that during a small fraction, the boost bonus is better than the resistance bonus. but then, there is the problem that the boost bonus forces you to fit an active tank, and thus, needs cap to be of any use. meanwhile, with resistance bonus you can go either with an active or passive tank, and the bonus works as well, even if you get out of cap.

this part is why i think that both bonus could be balanced. but i said could. why? cause of remote repairing. logistics are getting more and more important every day, and the boost bonus is completely useless on those situations, while a resistance bonus is incredibly useful. i think that this completely pushes the balance over to the resistance bonus.

yes, not everything has to be the same, amarr and gallente arent the same, and all that stuff. yes, but even though things do not have to be the same, they have to be balanced, and right now, they arent.

that is why i propose to increase the boost bonus to 10% per level. just as range bonuses are regarded not as powerful as damage bonuses, i believe boost bonus is, when looking the full picture, clearly not as powerful as resistance bonus, and could be upped a little.

this way the boost bonus would be clearly better for small encounters where the damage is still tankable and could make up for not benefiting from logistics at all, meanwhile resistance bonus would be better the rest of the situations

there is a very nice example of boost vs resistances on the first two posts here

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:38:00 - [2]
 

Don't forget that the resists are 'free' while the boosting costs cap.

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:40:00 - [3]
 

You can't simply compare repair boost and resitance bonuses without taking into account the ships they belong to.

Rayana Caff
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:40:00 - [4]
 

I'd just like to point out one thing you missed.

"meanwhile, with resistance bonus you can go either with an active or passive tank, and the bonus works as well, even if you get out of cap."

I've never had much luck with passive-tanked Amarr boats.

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:43:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Rayana Caff
I've never had much luck with passive-tanked Amarr boats.


You should try active tanked Caldari ones...

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.13 17:59:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sokratesz
Don't forget that the resists are 'free' while the boosting costs cap.


yes, i know, i said that too

Originally by: Rayana Caff
I'd just like to point out one thing you missed.

"meanwhile, with resistance bonus you can go either with an active or passive tank, and the bonus works as well, even if you get out of cap."

I've never had much luck with passive-tanked Amarr boats.


no, but you can use a buffer tank with plates. and resistance bonus works very well with plates. meanwhile boost bonus and plates are no that well of a mix

Originally by: Ogul
You can't simply compare repair boost and resitance bonuses without taking into account the ships they belong to.


they are very easy to compare. cyclone vs ferox or drake, sleipnir vs nighthawk, rokh vs maelstrom, brutix vs prophecy, hyperion vs abbadon, astarte vs absolution

you cant compare rokh vs cyclone, but ferox vs cyclone is a very fair comparison.

and take into account that i am not comparing general ship performance, only tanking effectiveness. there are very good ships on both sides, and very bad ones. but most of the problems have nothing to do with this.

for example, until this last path ferox was a very bad ship (well, it is still not the best), even though it had the superior tanking bonus.

Goron Garman
Terinyo
Posted - 2008.03.13 18:16:00 - [7]
 

His point is that ships are given different numbers of slots and different bonuses because they are not meant to do the same things at the same level of effectiveness. This is on purpose, and it is called balance. Balance does not mean everyone gets the same thing, it means that the strengths and weaknesses of the different ships are spread around so that no one ship is a pwnmobile. While balance isn't perfect, it's not quite as bad as you are suggesting. Having a 50% boost to repair/boost amount would be a 1.09(repeating)% boost to the amount repaired, when compared to the current 37.5% boost. (I took 1.5 divided by 1.375) Doing this would make boost ships better than resist ships in almost all circumstances from your calculations.

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.13 18:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Goron Garman
His point is that ships are given different numbers of slots and different bonuses because they are not meant to do the same things at the same level of effectiveness. This is on purpose, and it is called balance. Balance does not mean everyone gets the same thing, it means that the strengths and weaknesses of the different ships are spread around so that no one ship is a pwnmobile. While balance isn't perfect, it's not quite as bad as you are suggesting. Having a 50% boost to repair/boost amount would be a 1.09(repeating)% boost to the amount repaired, when compared to the current 37.5% boost. (I took 1.5 divided by 1.375) Doing this would make boost ships better than resist ships in almost all circumstances from your calculations.


only when facing a few opponents. if the damage dealt is twice the damage tanked (and that can be accomplish by two or three battleships, so nothing spectacular), then the resist bonus would be better again.

and then there is the whole remote repair and logistic drones, and the lack of cap use.

as i said, my idea is to make boost bonus clearly better on small encounters, and resist bonus better on large encounters and remote repairing.

cause right now boost bonus is marginaly better than resist bonus on small encounters and looses badly on any other situation.

Gheeeed
Posted - 2008.03.13 20:19:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sue Mee
i want to point out some things about resistances vs boost bonus. we all have our own idea of which is better than the other. but maths do not lie.

if incoming damage is smaller or up to 33% bigger than repaired amount, the 7'5% shield (or armor) boost bonus is better than the 5% shield (or amor) resistances bonus. but it really doesnt matter too much, since both bonus are enough to survive.

if incoming damage is between 33% and 37'5% bigger than repair amount, the 7'5% shield boost bonus is better than the 5% resistances bonus, making the minie or gallente ship survive, while the caldari or ammar ship would eventually go down.

if incoming damage is between 37'5% and 50% bigger than repair amount, the minie&gallente bonus is better than the caldari&amarr bonus, although not enough to survive, the minmatar&gallente ships would last longer

if incoming damage is 50% or more bigger than repair amount, the caldari&amarr ship will last longer but all of them will eventually go down.

this means that during a small fraction, the boost bonus is better than the resistance bonus. but then, there is the problem that the boost bonus forces you to fit an active tank, and thus, needs cap to be of any use. meanwhile, with resistance bonus you can go either with an active or passive tank, and the bonus works as well, even if you get out of cap.

this part is why i think that both bonus could be balanced. but i said could. why? cause of remote repairing. logistics are getting more and more important every day, and the boost bonus is completely useless on those situations, while a resistance bonus is incredibly useful. i think that this completely pushes the balance over to the resistance bonus.

yes, not everything has to be the same, amarr and gallente arent the same, and all that stuff. yes, but even though things do not have to be the same, they have to be balanced, and right now, they arent.

that is why i propose to increase the boost bonus to 10% per level. just as range bonuses are regarded not as powerful as damage bonuses, i believe boost bonus is, when looking the full picture, clearly not as powerful as resistance bonus, and could be upped a little.

this way the boost bonus would be clearly better for small encounters where the damage is still tankable and could make up for not benefiting from logistics at all, meanwhile resistance bonus would be better the rest of the situations

there is a very nice example of boost vs resistances on the first two posts here


I agree in general with the original post.

Caligulus
Legion of Lost Souls
Posted - 2008.03.13 20:24:00 - [10]
 

Buffer tanks and resistances are the best way to handle alpha strikes as a boost bonus does squat when there is enough damage to pop your ship in a single volley. Either way you're dead but the buffer tank will let you survive at least the initial blow.=P

Liu
Posted - 2008.03.13 22:34:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ogul
You can't simply compare repair boost and resitance bonuses without taking into account the ships they belong to.


yes you can, because you are comparing tank, not ship performance. we can all agree that the myrmidon is a better ship than the prophecy, but that doesnt mean that the repair bonus is better than the resistance bonus.

myrm is the better ship regardless of the bonus. but if the myrm had the resistance bonus instead of the repair amount bonus, then it would be even stronger.

take prophecy. most people would say that it is not one of the best battlecruisers. does it mean that the resist bonus is not good enough? no, it means that the ship has some problems that make that even with a very good bonus it is not a very strong ship.

that is why we can not compare entire ships and say, hey, myrm is stronger than prophecy, this means that repair bonus is better. no, that is what we have to avoid, or else we couldnt have any meaningful discussion.

the op has done a nice and unbiased analysis. as he said, maths do not lie. resist bonus is clearly the best bonus on most situations, and by a big big margin on some of them

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.13 22:39:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ogul on 13/03/2008 22:39:39
Originally by: Liu

the op has done a nice and unbiased analysis. as he said, maths do not lie. resist bonus is clearly the best bonus on most situations, and by a big big margin on some of them


And that doesn't mean anything. Some ships tank better than others. So what?

Ath Amon
Posted - 2008.03.13 22:42:00 - [13]
 

is quite well know that +res bonus >>>> +boost bonus

also the huge difference comes in when you have logistic support as the incoming heal benefit from res bonus but doesnt benefit at all from boost one

imo it will be nice if that bonus is applied to incoming heals too (maybe with some tweaks to rebalance it) then both bonuses will be of some use even in small and mid gangs.

sure +res will stay as the best one but at least the gap will be not so huge

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.13 23:44:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon

imo it will be nice if that bonus is applied to incoming heals too (maybe with some tweaks to rebalance it) then both bonuses will be of some use even in small and mid gangs.


well, my idea was the other one. i do not think that it is possible to aply boost bonus to remote repair, so i think that what would best is to accept that both bonus are different, and each one is better in each situation. that is why i suggested increasing the boost bonus to 10%.

that way boost bonus would be a clear choice on small fights, with less than 3 ships on each side, and without logistics.

and resistance bonus would still be the better choice for fleets and medium engagements, where damage is much higher than tanking, and logistic support is possible

Msobe
Posted - 2008.03.14 00:29:00 - [15]
 

Bonuses aren't balanced in a vacuum - if a bonus gets changed, each ship with it has to be looked at again, and rebalanced. Given that the bonus got stronger, the ships would (mostly) have to get weaker to compensate.

A 10% rep bonus might sound fair - until you start looking at dual rep tanks. There's a lot more to balancing than just pulling numbers out of the air and saying it sounds right - they settled on 7.5%, and you can be sure they put a lot more work into that decision than just thinking about it for a few minutes, then saying "mmmmm, yeah, this ought to do."

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 01:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Msobe
Bonuses aren't balanced in a vacuum - if a bonus gets changed, each ship with it has to be looked at again, and rebalanced. Given that the bonus got stronger, the ships would (mostly) have to get weaker to compensate.


i do not think so. mods and bonuses are changed very often, yet ships most of the times remain the same. look at the last torp change, after that, raven and typhoon became stronger on close combat, but none of those ships were changed.

or look at the last laser or proyectiles changes. most of amarr and minmatar ships remained unchanged.

the same will happen now with the change to tracking disruptors. amarr recons are not going to be nerfed because their EW became stronger.

Originally by: Msobe
A 10% rep bonus might sound fair - until you start looking at dual rep tanks.
why? it is the same. bonus are percentadge based, so it really doesnt matter how many repairers you have. it would be like saying that the resist bonus is overpowered when you mix it with invul fields.

also, dual repairers are in fact stronger with the resist bonus than with the boost bonus. that is why i think that the boost bonus should be increased.

Originally by: Msobe
they settled on 7.5%, and you can be sure they put a lot more work into that decision than just thinking about it for a few minutes, then saying "mmmmm, yeah, this ought to do."


are you sure? Laughing let me remind you how until one or two years ago, the boost bonus was 5%, and they changed it to 7'5% since it was blatanly worse than the resist bonus. so, they didnt think about the first time for a few minutes?

Mo adib
The Fimbriani
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.03.14 01:24:00 - [17]
 

math doesnt lie this is true, but incomplete math doesnt tell the whole story either.

there is alot more to consider then the raw numbers of a small percentage of the variables when it comes to game balance. Thank god some if not all of the devs dont think like the op when it comes to sweeping game balance.

Msobe
Posted - 2008.03.14 01:52:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sue Mee
Originally by: Msobe
Bonuses aren't balanced in a vacuum - if a bonus gets changed, each ship with it has to be looked at again, and rebalanced. Given that the bonus got stronger, the ships would (mostly) have to get weaker to compensate.


i do not think so. mods and bonuses are changed very often, yet ships most of the times remain the same. look at the last torp change, after that, raven and typhoon became stronger on close combat, but none of those ships were changed.

or look at the last laser or proyectiles changes. most of amarr and minmatar ships remained unchanged.

the same will happen now with the change to tracking disruptors. amarr recons are not going to be nerfed because their EW became stronger.

Originally by: Msobe
A 10% rep bonus might sound fair - until you start looking at dual rep tanks.
why? it is the same. bonus are percentadge based, so it really doesnt matter how many repairers you have. it would be like saying that the resist bonus is overpowered when you mix it with invul fields.

also, dual repairers are in fact stronger with the resist bonus than with the boost bonus. that is why i think that the boost bonus should be increased.

Originally by: Msobe
they settled on 7.5%, and you can be sure they put a lot more work into that decision than just thinking about it for a few minutes, then saying "mmmmm, yeah, this ought to do."


are you sure? Laughing let me remind you how until one or two years ago, the boost bonus was 5%, and they changed it to 7'5% since it was blatanly worse than the resist bonus. so, they didnt think about the first time for a few minutes?


I see what you're saying, but totally disagree with you.

Bonuses changed on Raven. But why? Not for the reason you present. The Raven bonuses were changed as a means of rebalancing the ship. That was the whole point.

You want to change the bonus since you think the bonus itself is too weak. The difference lies here - if every ship with that bonus is underpowered *because* it has that bonus, change it, and the ships are fixed. If some of those ships are fine with the bonus, changing the bonus forces another look at the ship its on.

Case - compare a Myrm to a Proph. One has a resist bonus, one has a rep bonus. Is the rep bonused ship underpowered compared to the resist bonused one? If the rep bonus gets a boost, how does that change the respective balance between the two?

Asmosis
Posted - 2008.03.14 07:29:00 - [19]
 

Stacking penalties. I'll take a boost amp over another resist module at a certain point.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.14 07:43:00 - [20]
 

Boost bonuses are bad, they should probably be changed to resist bonsues with the current resist bonuses being changed to size bonuses.

Darkonian
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.14 07:45:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Liu

yes you can, because you are comparing tank, not ship performance. we can all agree that the myrmidon is a better ship than the prophecy, but that doesnt mean that the repair bonus is better than the resistance bonus.

myrm is the better ship regardless of the bonus. but if the myrm had the resistance bonus instead of the repair amount bonus, then it would be even stronger.

take prophecy. most people would say that it is not one of the best battlecruisers. does it mean that the resist bonus is not good enough? no, it means that the ship has some problems that make that even with a very good bonus it is not a very strong ship.

that is why we can not compare entire ships and say, hey, myrm is stronger than prophecy, this means that repair bonus is better. no, that is what we have to avoid, or else we couldnt have any meaningful discussion.

the op has done a nice and unbiased analysis. as he said, maths do not lie. resist bonus is clearly the best bonus on most situations, and by a big big margin on some of them

That's the point. Why boost the mymidon repair bonus if he is already better?

Willy Joe
Posted - 2008.03.14 07:48:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Willy Joe on 14/03/2008 08:05:55
Originally by: Sue Mee
why? it is the same. bonus are percentadge based, so it really doesnt matter how many repairers you have. it would be like saying that the resist bonus is overpowered when you mix it with invul fields.

also, dual repairers are in fact stronger with the resist bonus than with the boost bonus. that is why i think that the boost bonus should be increased.




You just contradicted yourself in that segment of your post. First you say that the bonus is the same regardless of the number of reppers , and we all know that on one repper + boost bonus is better than repper + resist bonus , and then you say that two reppers + boost bonus is worse than two reppers + resist bonus . Rolling Eyes

And for some math :

Prophecy vs Myrm , same number of lowslots no damage mods

2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , no bonuses applied , they both tank 82dps.
2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , with bonuses from BC level 5 -

Prophecy tanks 146 DPS while the Myrm tanks 150 DPS

Let's add some hardeners , shall we ?

2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , 3x Energized adaptive nano membranes II , and 1x Damage control II.

No bonuses applied , they both tank 165 DPS.
With bonuses from BC level 5 , the Prophecy tanks 341 while the myrm tanks 352.

So the boost bonus is indeed better than the resist bonus , active-tanking-wise.

Now sure the Prophecy is able to get a much better passive tank , whatever it does , it will not get the dps of the myrmidon ( without fitting any damage mods ) so as far as i can see they're perfectly balanced.

The same kind of reasoning can be applied to the other ships boost bonus vs resist bonus , and i trust that they are balanced atm ( Sleip vs Nighthawk , Astarte vs Absolution - gank vs tank. )

ThatCpp
Gallente
Knights Of the Black Sun
Posted - 2008.03.14 08:12:00 - [23]
 

I would think that they are relatively similar, depending on how many resistance mods you put, you get diminishing returns with resistance bonus, even though they aren't stacking nerfed you get a percentage of the remainder.

Math wise the resists bonus may be better but considering everyone needs to fit resist mods, they kinda sorta equalise.

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 08:51:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Msobe

Bonuses changed on Raven. But why? Not for the reason you present. The Raven bonuses were changed as a means of rebalancing the ship. That was the whole point.


do you think so? do you think raven needed a boost? oh, and also typhoon, and golem, and rattlesnake, and CNR...

no, if they wanted to boost the raven, they could changed the ship itself, not the weapon.

Originally by: Msobe
You want to change the bonus since you think the bonus itself is too weak. The difference lies here - if every ship with that bonus is underpowered *because* it has that bonus, change it, and the ships are fixed. If some of those ships are fine with the bonus, changing the bonus forces another look at the ship its on.


i disagree. there are some things that have to be balanced even without looking at ship's performance. for example, muninn BPO and vagabond BPO have the same atributtes (copy time, build time, research time) yet i am sure that the owners of one of them are making a lot more money than the owners of the other. does it mean that we have to change the atribs on the muninn BPO?


Originally by: Msobe
Case - compare a Myrm to a Proph. One has a resist bonus, one has a rep bonus. Is the rep bonused ship underpowered compared to the resist bonused one? If the rep bonus gets a boost, how does that change the respective balance between the two?


but the problem with the propechy has nothing to do with the tanking bonus. the same as the strenth of the myrm is hardly a consecuence of the repair bonus. many people passive shield tank the myrm, and it is a fearsome ship. so the myrm is a great ship regardless of that bonus. with only 1 bonus the myrm would still be very good.


Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 08:52:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Asmosis
Stacking penalties. I'll take a boost amp over another resist module at a certain point.


boost amp are also penalized, so i really do not understand your reasoning. furthermore, we are talking about bonus, not modules.

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 09:00:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Willy Joe
Edited by: Willy Joe on 14/03/2008 08:05:55
Originally by: Sue Mee
why? it is the same. bonus are percentadge based, so it really doesnt matter how many repairers you have. it would be like saying that the resist bonus is overpowered when you mix it with invul fields.

also, dual repairers are in fact stronger with the resist bonus than with the boost bonus. that is why i think that the boost bonus should be increased.




You just contradicted yourself in that segment of your post. First you say that the bonus is the same regardless of the number of reppers , and we all know that on one repper + boost bonus is better than repper + resist bonus , and then you say that two reppers + boost bonus is worse than two reppers + resist bonus . Rolling Eyes

And for some math :

Prophecy vs Myrm , same number of lowslots no damage mods

2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , no bonuses applied , they both tank 82dps.
2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , with bonuses from BC level 5 -

Prophecy tanks 146 DPS while the Myrm tanks 150 DPS

Let's add some hardeners , shall we ?

2x Medium Armor Repairer IIs , 3x Energized adaptive nano membranes II , and 1x Damage control II.

No bonuses applied , they both tank 165 DPS.
With bonuses from BC level 5 , the Prophecy tanks 341 while the myrm tanks 352.

So the boost bonus is indeed better than the resist bonus , active-tanking-wise.

Now sure the Prophecy is able to get a much better passive tank , whatever it does , it will not get the dps of the myrmidon ( without fitting any damage mods ) so as far as i can see they're perfectly balanced.

The same kind of reasoning can be applied to the other ships boost bonus vs resist bonus , and i trust that they are balanced atm ( Sleip vs Nighthawk , Astarte vs Absolution - gank vs tank. )


you said exactly what i said on the first post. also you should read the first 2 post of the thread i linked. boost bonus is indeed better on a very defined situation: when the damage dealt is less than 150% of the damage tanked and there are no logistics involved.

but going over that 150% damage is very easy. you only need 2 or 3 battleships to do so, and on that case, the resist bonus takes the upper hand again.

if logistics didnt exist, i'd say that it would be balanced. boost bonus is stronger on small encounters but needs cap and forces you to active tank. resist bonus is better on medium and large fights and lets you choose wheter you want to go active or buffer/passive

but logistics do exist, as repair drones, and this is a situation that probably wasnt taken into account when deciding the bonus (since logistic ships and drones were introduced much later). and when remote repair is involved, boost bonus is as useful as male nipples, meanwhile, resist is very useful again.

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 09:02:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: ThatCpp
I would think that they are relatively similar, depending on how many resistance mods you put, you get diminishing returns with resistance bonus, even though they aren't stacking nerfed you get a percentage of the remainder.

Math wise the resists bonus may be better but considering everyone needs to fit resist mods, they kinda sorta equalise.


bonus are never penalized. also, diminishing returns have nothing do to here. going from 0% to 50% on a resist is as good as going from 50% to 75%.

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.14 09:16:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sue Mee

do you think so? do you think raven needed a boost? oh, and also typhoon, and golem, and rattlesnake, and CNR...

no, if they wanted to boost the raven, they could changed the ship itself, not the weapon.



Are you seriously suggesting the torp changes were a boost to golem/rattlesnake/cnr??

Princess Xenia
Caldari
Scion Innovations
Posted - 2008.03.14 09:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Boost bonuses are bad, they should probably be changed to resist bonsues with the current resist bonuses being changed to size bonuses.


hmmm... that's great!!! Especially on cap intensive Amarr ships... buffer tank???

Sue Mee
Posted - 2008.03.14 10:14:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: Sue Mee

do you think so? do you think raven needed a boost? oh, and also typhoon, and golem, and rattlesnake, and CNR...

no, if they wanted to boost the raven, they could changed the ship itself, not the weapon.



Are you seriously suggesting the torp changes were a boost to golem/rattlesnake/cnr??


no, what i am saying is that the torp change didnt affect only the raven, and that the ships that were affected by this change were not balanced later.


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