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Princess Xenia
Caldari
Scion Innovations
Posted - 2008.03.03 05:49:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Fofalus
Originally by: Princess Xenia
?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!?!


Oh wait boosting specialized EWAR thats already over powered makes it more over powered awesome. Good thing Damnation boosts armour claymore boosts speed and night hawk boosts shields racial things each and the GALLENTE ship which require GALLENTE CRUISER 5 boosts ECM which is not the GALLENTE racial ewar. Makes perfect sense.



How about a compromise…. Damnation and Vulture are purely defensive… Claymore reflects Minmatar’s flexibility and can be use both offensively and defensively… Gallente like being offensive… So how about drone warfare links?
Drone MWD speed links, Drone control range links, drone durability links
Please NO DAMAGE ENHANCING LINKS… its rubbish and overpowered.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.03 05:58:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Fofalus
These are the facts.
  1. Eos has less of a tank than any other fleet command ship when using equal fittings.
  2. Eos has less firepower than any other fleet command ship when using equal fittings
  3. Eos gang warfare links do not affect all ships in the fleet so are not as valuable as the other 3 categories.
  4. Eos Gang warfare links do not follow racial specialties like every other fleet command ship


You can not dispute any of those points logically.

When CCP blindly tried to balance the Eos(it needed balancing I don't deny that) they decided to nerf every piece of it when the drone nerf alone would have been enough. Not only do the link nerfs and gun nerfs hurt enough but the drone nerf completely makes the drone bay bonus useless.

Fake Edit: I had more well thought arguments but even thinking about these changes make me honestly to god sick (like I just want to puke) I will post them later


I can dispute these "facts"

1. The claymore and vulture cannot fit tackle while tanking. The need for propulsion mods means that an EHP based tank on either will produce better results for the Eos over a claymore. In an active config, in order for a claymore to out-tank an EOS it needs to be running an Xl Booster and not fitting tackle. Something that isn't very realistic due to capacitor and fitting and of course, means the ship doesnt have any ancillary purpose, as opposed to an Eos, which could fit 3 ewar modules[TD's most likely] and it will still be similar in terms of tank and DPS.

2. The EOS has much more firepower than other fleet command ship when using equal fittings. No other command ship does as much DPS when in a full tank mode except the claymore. No other command ship can even match the current EOS's full tank dps in any way while fitting gang mods. That is. An Eos that doesn't fit any damage mods at all, with 2 or 3 gang mods, outdamages ALL other fleet command ships that fit a similar number of gang mods, no matter how they are fit, except the claymore, and the claymore has to be using hail in 425mm ACs[so if its got a web, its not tanking as well as the Eos]

3. The eos's gang warfare links do affect all ships in the fleet[sensor strength boost = general defense against ECM], and the boosts they provide are much stronger and more usefull than the others in many situations

4. Who cares? Just train other warfare links if you dont want to use the EOS's, the 15% boost is nearly inconsequential.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.03 05:59:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Princess Xenia
Originally by: Fofalus
Originally by: Princess Xenia
?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!?!


Oh wait boosting specialized EWAR thats already over powered makes it more over powered awesome. Good thing Damnation boosts armour claymore boosts speed and night hawk boosts shields racial things each and the GALLENTE ship which require GALLENTE CRUISER 5 boosts ECM which is not the GALLENTE racial ewar. Makes perfect sense.



How about a compromise…. Damnation and Vulture are purely defensive… Claymore reflects Minmatar’s flexibility and can be use both offensively and defensively… Gallente like being offensive… So how about drone warfare links?
Drone MWD speed links, Drone control range links, drone durability links
Please NO DAMAGE ENHANCING LINKS… its rubbish and overpowered.



Because drone links would be a massive nerf to the info war links.

Princess Xenia
Caldari
Scion Innovations
Posted - 2008.03.03 06:47:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Princess Xenia
Originally by: Fofalus
Originally by: Princess Xenia
?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!?!


Oh wait boosting specialized EWAR thats already over powered makes it more over powered awesome. Good thing Damnation boosts armour claymore boosts speed and night hawk boosts shields racial things each and the GALLENTE ship which require GALLENTE CRUISER 5 boosts ECM which is not the GALLENTE racial ewar. Makes perfect sense.



How about a compromise…. Damnation and Vulture are purely defensive… Claymore reflects Minmatar’s flexibility and can be use both offensively and defensively… Gallente like being offensive… So how about drone warfare links?
Drone MWD speed links, Drone control range links, drone durability links
Please NO DAMAGE ENHANCING LINKS… its rubbish and overpowered.



Because drone links would be a massive nerf to the info war links.



A MASSIVE nerf for Caldarians and a MINOR boost for Gallentians you mean?

Small drones that can catch interceptors? S/M/H drones that can survive 2 or more blasts of max-skilled S/M/H smarties? Drones that become 'useful' in fleet (especially snipers... lol I know... BUT at least given this option)?


Buzz Hogg
Posted - 2008.03.03 09:36:00 - [35]
 

My alt was an Eos pilot and frankly I don't care what the ganglink bonuses are. The Eos used to be a step up (wel at least in some ways) from the ishtar and the domi drone boats. Now I am back to those two ships and training for a thanathos to at least get some mileage out of the skills I trained for the Eos. Maybe the Eos was never meant to be a general purpose t2 drone boat but we sure could use more of them as the Ishtar is the only one right now. Sin, Eos and Ishkur are all niche ships.




Tyr Zewa
Caldari
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.03.03 10:21:00 - [36]
 

Gallente are a EW race, because they fought Caldari.
It's always been like that, so the links make sense.

And these links are in noway weaker than other ganglinks.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.03 19:27:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Princess Xenia


A MASSIVE nerf for Caldarians and a MINOR boost for Gallentians you mean?

Small drones that can catch interceptors? S/M/H drones that can survive 2 or more blasts of max-skilled S/M/H smarties? Drones that become 'useful' in fleet (especially snipers... lol I know... BUT at least given this option)?


No, it would be a massive nerf to anyone using these links.

1. drones really cant kill inties well, they stop MWDing after a certian point.


2. they are near useless in fleets.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.03 19:55:00 - [38]
 

As dominix pilot with maxed drone skills I can confirm that drones are not a threat to unwebbed inties.

And for fleets, drones are even less useful than missiles, because they are slower than missiles and have shorter range. So if missiles are not popular for fleets, drones are even less popular.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:02:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tyr Zewa
Gallente are a EW race, because they fought Caldari.
It's always been like that, so the links make sense.

And these links are in noway weaker than other ganglinks.
I thought Caldari was the EW race, since they have the most mid slots to fit EW mods, the strongest EW bonuses. Gallente were the highest damage and drones race.

You are incorrect in claiming that those EW links are no weaker than other gang links. We don't need to dispute this on hypothetical reasons. We can get confirmation by CCP:

ask CCP to present us with the following information from EVE database:
*) How many people have command ships with gang mods fitted, divide by race
*) How many gang links are fitted on all ships, divided by type
*) How many Eos pilots are fitted with gallente EW gang links compared to armor/shield/skirmish gang links. How many have fitted mixed types.

I am sure that from that data we can conclude that EW gang links are indeed weaker than armor and shield ones. I may be wrong, but I am willing to appologize and correct myself if data proves otherwise.

Let us have that data to clear this arguement.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.03.03 20:29:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Tyr Zewa
Gallente are a EW race, because they fought Caldari.
It's always been like that, so the links make sense.

And these links are in noway weaker than other ganglinks.
I thought Caldari was the EW race, since they have the most mid slots to fit EW mods, the strongest EW bonuses. Gallente were the highest damage and drones race.

You are incorrect in claiming that those EW links are no weaker than other gang links. We don't need to dispute this on hypothetical reasons. We can get confirmation by CCP:

ask CCP to present us with the following information from EVE database:
*) How many people have command ships with gang mods fitted, divide by race
*) How many gang links are fitted on all ships, divided by type
*) How many Eos pilots are fitted with gallente EW gang links compared to armor/shield/skirmish gang links. How many have fitted mixed types.

I am sure that from that data we can conclude that EW gang links are indeed weaker than armor and shield ones. I may be wrong, but I am willing to appologize and correct myself if data proves otherwise.

Let us have that data to clear this arguement.


The fact that the Eos is now by far the cheapest command ship on the market is enough data to prove that something is wrong with the ship.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:17:00 - [41]
 

The existence and non-recognition by the player base of basic collective action problems[and/or externalities] regarding the strength of ewar gang mods and ewar in general is no reason to believe that the Eos is weaker than the other command ships.

In short, despite the EOS's advantages, you can expect that people will value it lower than it ought to be.

Clearly we cannot balance the EOS to be valued at its proper value, because in order to do so, the Eos and info war links in general must become vastly overpowered.

The collective action problem is that the costs of flying ewar ships are disproportionate to the costs of flying standard ships. This is because their strength makes them fast primaries.

Such the benefit to the gang of flying an ewar ships is greater than flying a standard DPS ship, but this is not seen over the increased costs to the individual of replacing those ships.

The externality issue is the same. The benefit of the info war gang links is not ever directly seen. Typically you do not notice when you are not jammed and you do not notice when your ewar is kicking ass. This makes the effect of the Eos's gang links hard to see. This makes them less likely to be used regardless of their strength.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:43:00 - [42]
 

I can understand that EW gang mods are not going to be as widely used as other gang mods simply because the proportion of EW ships to tank+gank+speed ships is very small.

We may have very powerful EW gang bonus which is still rarely used.

If that is the case, why not replace the EW bonus with something else that is very useful, such as a damage bonus boost. Then much more people will use it. The usefulness and general application of gang damage bonus will make it equal to the usage of armor and speed gang mods.

Because the damage bonus is so useful, command ships weilding it will be primaries in fleet battles.

What we can do is trade one powerful but rarely used bonus for another powerful but frequently used bonus. This will result in considerable increase of Eos uses, more gangs will field command ships. Overall complexity of PvP will slightly increase.

I want to see that happen. Plus I think there are not enough ways to boost damage in relation to ways that boost tanking.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.03.03 22:56:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Spenz on 03/03/2008 22:57:26

Originally by: Goumindong
The existence and non-recognition by the player base of basic collective action problems[and/or externalities] regarding the strength of ewar gang mods and ewar in general is no reason to believe that the Eos is weaker than the other command ships.

In short, despite the EOS's advantages, you can expect that people will value it lower than it ought to be.

Clearly we cannot balance the EOS to be valued at its proper value, because in order to do so, the Eos and info war links in general must become vastly overpowered.

The collective action problem is that the costs of flying ewar ships are disproportionate to the costs of flying standard ships. This is because their strength makes them fast primaries.

Such the benefit to the gang of flying an ewar ships is greater than flying a standard DPS ship, but this is not seen over the increased costs to the individual of replacing those ships.

The externality issue is the same. The benefit of the info war gang links is not ever directly seen. Typically you do not notice when you are not jammed and you do not notice when your ewar is kicking ass. This makes the effect of the Eos's gang links hard to see. This makes them less likely to be used regardless of their strength.


Advantages? WHAT advantages? It isn't just the warfare links that make the Eos a subpar Fleet command ship. The entire ship is geared towards a role it is not suppose to perform. Not only this, but info warfare links were nerfed. You get more by bringing another ewar ship than you do by bringing an eos with info links (which will ALWAYS be useless to at least one ship in the gang unlike any other warfare link).

Im starting to believe that you have never even flown the eos, either in a gang or the ship itself. I have. The ship (weapons and tank) is too cap-intensive to keep links on in small-gang warfare, and for fleet warfare, its tank is too weak (in comparison to other FCS), its weapons range is too short (or not desirable for fleet such as drones), and it uses links that are too specialized.

So someone says "ok then use other links". If I'm going to do that, why should I even use an eos? Why cant I just use a damnation, which tanks far FAR better in fleet combat, has the range to actually hit stuff at a safe distance, and gives a bonus to a useful warfare link? Why cant I use the claymore, which gives an unbelievably useful set of warfare links for small gangs all while giving fairly good combat performance itself? Same with the vulture.

WHY use an Eos? The ship itself is beyond useless, the links are not worth the extra baggage the eos brings to a recon gang, and they do not boost the gang more than an extra ewar ship would.

Frances Ducoir
Gallente
Koshaku
Dark Syndicate.
Posted - 2008.03.04 00:06:00 - [44]
 

dont mind Goumindong. he is heavily biased towards amarr, just ignore him.

in another thread i provided lots of evidence for imbalance between guardian and oneiros and he still rabbled against gallente ships (see current alliance tournament for examples of guardian vs. oneiros, oneiros was barely fielded but mostly guardians). you can't persuade him with arguments, he just keeps rabbling, so just ignore him.

this seems to be a common attribute of amarr players... lots of sad ppl who want to get everything else than their own race nerfed.

gallente got nerfed to far... thats a fact so please would you just go back to your "boost amarr" threads? (oh i forgot amarr got its boost... is this the reason why you are rabbling over other races because you have nothing else to worry left? Rolling Eyes)


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.04 00:24:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 00:25:44
Originally by: Spenz


Advantages? WHAT advantages? It isn't just the warfare links that make the Eos a subpar Fleet command ship. The entire ship is geared towards a role it is not suppose to perform. Not only this, but info warfare links were nerfed. You get more by bringing another ewar ship than you do by bringing an eos with info links (which will ALWAYS be useless to at least one ship in the gang unlike any other warfare link).


Until your ewar ships know that they can reposition themselves to get farther away and all your non-ewar ships get jammed less.

If want more range, fit rails. If you want less cap on your tank fit plates. This is not complicated.

If you have troubles runing gang mods i dont know what to say. Three gang mods use barely more cap than a t2 warp scrambler...

The Eos provides the best or second best bonuses in fleets. Speed and tackle range are important, but not nearly as important as not being jammed due to the existance of bubbles.

It also provides the best small gang dps[while still tanking].

edit:

The only command ship that is dps effective in a fleet is the vulture. Complaining that the EOS cannot do dps in those instances is a bit foolish.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.04 01:03:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Until your ewar ships know that they can reposition themselves to get farther away and all your non-ewar ships get jammed less.

If want more range, fit rails. If you want less cap on your tank fit plates. This is not complicated.

If you have troubles runing gang mods i dont know what to say. Three gang mods use barely more cap than a t2 warp scrambler...

The Eos provides the best or second best bonuses in fleets. Speed and tackle range are important, but not nearly as important as not being jammed due to the existance of bubbles.

It also provides the best small gang dps[while still tanking].

edit:

The only command ship that is dps effective in a fleet is the vulture. Complaining that the EOS cannot do dps in those instances is a bit foolish.
If what you say is true, there should be a lot more Eos uses than what we see now. Some ideas are great on paper but not in practice. This may be one of those cases.

CCP have the tools to check current patterns of Eos uses to see if your claims are true or not.

You can dismiss bad data on "collective stupidity" - people not recognizing the greatness. But that sort of thing cannot last long. Once somebody figures out a powerful tactic and uses it, it spreads like wildfire and everybody uses it. Community is not as dumb as it may seem. Post-patch Eos has been out long enough for people to figure out some clever way of using it.

I think EVE database would suggest something is wrong with it.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.03.06 21:07:00 - [47]
 

I was rather disappointed when the Eos got nerfed. To be fair, it was not doing its intended role, but rather being a massive gank ship. Information warfare links are pretty bad to be sure, but unlike all warfare links, there are two useless ones and one good one (the good one in this case being jamming resistance, others have two useful ones depending on setup). A better swap would be to replace jamming range with a targeting range/speed bonus to all ships. Anyway, in any proper fleet instance, E-war will be primaried and killed before it has any marginal effect on the outcome of the battle. This IS different from small gang warfare where E-war is king; but in that case the Eos would be better replaced by another E-war ship.

Even with a gun nerf and the drone nerf, its true you can use EFT to have it pull out a better dps + tank in a gang/gank fitting than the other CSes.... but this is not a fair comparison! Fleet CS should be geared toward permarunning 3 links (5 if you utilize command co-processors) then uber tanking. Using this instead, the ubertank on the other CSes is far superior for the sole fact that the Eos is primarily an active tank setup and the cap drain is enormous.

The only positive change to the ship itself would be to strip the damage bonus and replace it with something far more useful. Move the drone bay bonus to BC skill, then give it something interesting like bonus to drone bandwidth (10m3 to use 5 heavies) or another tanking bonus. The inheritance principle would be violated (no Brutix bonus to guns) however the Damnation already proved that this doesn't matter.

wide
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.07 04:47:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Zanquis
I think you underestimate the usefulness of these links in todays Fleet warfare. In fact I would argue your links are MORE useful overall then the Siege or Armor links since in fleet battles where such gang links are very useful, the only gang link which means anything for siege and armor are the resistance ones. The others are pretty pointless since an active tank does jack in large fleet battles.

Information warfare on the other hand give 3 different bonus which make a big difference in a good fleet setup in todays fleet combats due to the current strength of ECM.

Electronic Superiority: Provides a boost to jammer strength. The most effective force multiplier in the game is ECM. Using this link in a fleet your jammers will be able to achieve jam strenths which can bring racial jammers past strenth 15 which gives you a 100% chance to jam any hac, cruiser forever with one jammer, or keep a battlecruiser locked up 90% of the time and a battleship locked down 80% of the time. Now most jamming ships carry many of these jammers (at least 4) so with your link bonus at best you suddenly have ONE blackbird keeping a carrier locked up most of the time (Jam str 12.184 with racial, 2xSignal distort ampII's, Electronic Superiority link, and all V skills. Avg carrier has 80 sensor strength so thats 12.184/80=15.23% chance to jam per jammer. This is a mutually exclusive event so with 4 jammers statistically your chance to jam that carrier is 0.1523*4=0.6128 or 61.28% to jam the carrier with 4 jammers. Without the link your jam strength at best is 11.092 giving you a 13.87% each jammer which is 55.48% chance to jam with 4 jammers on that same carrier. it doesn't seem like much but the more jammers you add to this equation the larger the diffrence in probability between having the link and being without. If a blackbird can take a carrier out of the fight reliability with this link, thats a pretty big deal.

Recon Operation: This module is sick because of the effect on ecm range. With this module you can easily get all your jammers to jam effectively over 130KM including multispectral's. With racials it becomes possible to attain setups which can jam at 190 KM at best. Now this is also the most practical of the links because not everybody has maxed out jammer skills and with these links suddenly your joe average player in a blackbird is hitting 150KM with his racial jammers and that makes forming a sizable ECM support group far easier and realistic. This also boosts the ranges on sensor damps and tracking disruptor's also making a difference since it now makes it possible for these ewar ships to effect snipers.

Sensor Integrity: In my opinion this is the most important of the gang links in todays fleet warfare. This gives people who you are boosting a blanked bonus of up to 25.87% stronger sensor strength which makes you harder to jam. Considering you can have this effect your whole fleet, it gives enemy ewar a hard time in jamming you as they will have to stack more jammers on your ships to reliablity jam them. That means you have reduced the effectiveness of their force multiplier. With this your carriers will have a sensor strenth of about 100 which makes them significantly harder to keep jammed and will cause your enemy to divert more of their jammers to lock down a single cap ship.

While none of these gang links are 'win' buttons in todays fleet engagements, neither are any of the siege or armored links. They effect the bulk of your fleet and make them more effective. Harder to kill is nice, but with the strength of Ewar in todays fleet engagements, Information Warefare links have 3 useful modules compared to 1 for the siege and armored links. Furthermore the potency of these links in my opinion add more strength to the potency of a balanced fleet then any of the armored or siege warfare links could. Just having the Sensor Integrity link alone is a massive boost to your fleet.




/signed

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.03.07 05:03:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 04/03/2008 00:25:44

Until your ewar ships know that they can reposition themselves to get farther away and all your non-ewar ships get jammed less.

If want more range, fit rails. If you want less cap on your tank fit plates. This is not complicated.

If you have troubles runing gang mods i dont know what to say. Three gang mods use barely more cap than a t2 warp scrambler...

The Eos provides the best or second best bonuses in fleets. Speed and tackle range are important, but not nearly as important as not being jammed due to the existance of bubbles.

It also provides the best small gang dps[while still tanking].

edit:

The only command ship that is dps effective in a fleet is the vulture. Complaining that the EOS cannot do dps in those instances is a bit foolish.


lol what? Rails? Plates?! Have you even TRIED fitting this stuff on a realistic gang-boosting eos? Let me fill you in, it wont. Fitting rails is a pain, and you get no range bonus so forget about gaining any mileage out of them, and plates? You basically just threw away one of the Eos' bonuses (rep amount per level) You can fit a plate setup, or you can fit a rep setup. you cannot do both on that ship.

As for not getting jammed due to bubbles, I think you have the info links confused. They do not add warp strength to you, so bubbles don't matter. As for jamming, I have yet to encounter a situation where the ecm is so heavy, an Eos would have saved the gang.

3 gang links using as much as 1 T2 scrambler? Now I KNOW you don't know what you are talking about. a T2 DISRUPTOR (more cap intensive) takes 25 cap per cycle (5 seconds. ONE warfare link takes 50 cap per cycle (10 seconds). 3 links takes 150 cap every 10 seconds (as much as a medium armor repper). That is 3 warp disruptor II's running constantly. Sorry but that is not "barely more cap" than anything. That is a lot of cap draining.

As for small-gang dps, the eos wouldn't have the best small-gang dps, the brutix would. Yes surprise, the Eos is now the only FCS that is out-damaged by its T1 hull. Now I quite frankly don't care about the dps issue (once again supporting my opinion that the Eos was not properly designed for its role), but it is something to think about.

Quite frankly all the supporters I see are basing their opinions on theory, not on practice. A bunch of what-ifs and such (a form of eft combat without the eft). If the Eos was so powerful and useful, the market would reflect this.

'Nuff said.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.07 05:55:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Spenz

'Nuff said.


Now i know you have never flown a gang boosting ship since trinity. From someone who hasn't activated a command module since then you have a lot to say about "practice"

1. A t2 warp disruptor uses 5 cap a second

2. A gang mod uses 2.5 cap a second. Its cap was halved[ months ago. Three gang mods use 7.5 cap a second, a whole 2.5 cap a second more than the disruptor. A whole 15% of your base cap regen, a whole 7% of a medium cap injector. A whole 10% of the cap use of 7 Heavy Pulse laser IIs, or maybe 15-20% of 5 blasters.

3. Rails fit just fine on the Eos, you dont need a range bonus to be valuable unless its in a large fleet. Guess what, in a large fleet, the Eos has some of the best gang bonuses and all other gang boosting ships are useless except the vulture.

4. Plates fit just fine on an Eos, using a ships bonuses is not always the optimal fitting for a ship, and if the optimal fitting for a ship does not include the bonus you should not fit for it

5. A brutix, which is not freaking nearly the best small gang DPS out of a gang boosting battlecruiser, let alone if you are only considering tech 2 resistance bonused, 2-3 gang mod producing ships. First off, the brutix has 7 high slots and 7 turrets, so any of the tier 2 BC's will whipe the floor with it when fitting the one gang bonus, especially considering at least one of them gets close already[860 DPS gank-a-cane] to the ungang bonused

No, if its small gang and you really want the best tank/gank platform to produce multiple gang bonuses, you want an Eos.

If you are complaining that the Eos is the only FCS out-damaged by its t2 hull, you would be wrong, because the Claymore, Vulture, and Damnation are all out-damaged in the situation you have described, a 0 gang mod fitting max gank battlecruiser fitting compared to a 2-3 gang mod fitting FCS. And keep in mind as well, that the brutix is hands down, clearly, and undisputedly the best tier 1 battlecruiser.

6. Its the gang bonuses on the EOS that are boosted by bubbles, its the skirmish warfare gang bonuses that are made less effective due to the existance of bubbles, the 31km scramblers become less valuable because your dictor can just **** out a bubble.

Originally by: Ephemeron
If what you say is true, there should be a lot more Eos uses than what we see now. Some ideas are great on paper but not in practice. This may be one of those cases.


Wait a second. If what i say is true, that the Eos will be used less than the other command ships regardless of its efficiacy due to the nature of human decision making processes, we should see more Eos's being flown?

Man what?

Its not "collective stupidity", it happens each and every day because the action that is better for themselves and the action that is best for everyone is not the same.

Jessica Molla
Posted - 2008.03.07 06:18:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Goumindong



3. Rails fit just fine on the Eos, you dont need a range bonus to be valuable unless its in a large fleet. Guess what, in a large fleet, the Eos has some of the best gang bonuses and all other gang boosting ships are useless except the vulture.




damnation useless? ehm...what?
vulture useful? ehm...what?

now i know that you have actually never flown a gang boosting ship in a large battle

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.07 07:28:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Jessica Molla
Originally by: Goumindong



3. Rails fit just fine on the Eos, you dont need a range bonus to be valuable unless its in a large fleet. Guess what, in a large fleet, the Eos has some of the best gang bonuses and all other gang boosting ships are useless except the vulture.




damnation useless? ehm...what?
vulture useful? ehm...what?

now i know that you have actually never flown a gang boosting ship in a large battle


Yea, those 5 undamage bonused range boosted HAMs are really really good!!! Its like flying an undamaged bonused caracal! God, what was I thinking, this thing is awesome!

No the anti-support vulture is really good. Really good actually.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.03.07 08:38:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
If you are complaining that the Eos is the only FCS out-damaged by its t2 hull, you would be wrong, because the Claymore, Vulture, and Damnation are all out-damaged in the situation you have described, a 0 gang mod fitting max gank battlecruiser fitting compared to a 2-3 gang mod fitting FCS. And keep in mind as well, that the brutix is hands down, clearly, and undisputedly the best tier 1 battlecruiser.


More importantly, the Eos is not a T2 Brutix. It may look like one, since CCP won't switch the command ship models over to the new tier-2 ships, but the Eos is supposed to be a drone boat, not a blaster ship. Granted, it utterly fails at this, because of CCP's absurd nerf idea, but that's what it's supposed to be. Comparing the Brutix to the Eos is about as silly as comparing the Ferox to the Nighthawk or the Prophecy to the Damnation.

That said, there are only two problems with the Eos:

1) Ewar links, while very effective, are an odd choice for Gallente, and don't really fit at all with the racial strategy. Compare this to the others: virtually every Caldari ship shield tanks, virtually every Amarr ship armor tanks, and virtually every Minmatar ship wants to go really fast.

2) The Eos fails completely at being a drone boat, specifically an ewar drone boat. To use the gang links properly, the Eos needs to drop the armor tank, drop the guns, get a proper drone bay, get its mid slots back (why CCP thought removing a mid slot from the ewar command ship was a good idea, I have no idea), and get proper ewar bonuses instead of the armor tank/hybrid damage bonuses.



Of course the odds are this is never going to happen, because it would require a complicated redesign of the ship. Rather than address the issue of fleet commands being seriously underpowered, it's easier to just say "they're not combat ships" and leave them all nerfed.

Jessica Molla
Posted - 2008.03.07 09:51:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Jessica Molla
Originally by: Goumindong



3. Rails fit just fine on the Eos, you dont need a range bonus to be valuable unless its in a large fleet. Guess what, in a large fleet, the Eos has some of the best gang bonuses and all other gang boosting ships are useless except the vulture.




damnation useless? ehm...what?
vulture useful? ehm...what?

now i know that you have actually never flown a gang boosting ship in a large battle


Yea, those 5 undamage bonused range boosted HAMs are really really good!!! Its like flying an undamaged bonused caracal! God, what was I thinking, this thing is awesome!

No the anti-support vulture is really good. Really good actually.


i thought we were talking about bonuses...we all know that guns on these ships are next to useless

and talking about bonuses, vulures bonuses are being much less used in large engagements than those of damnation, the same goes for an eos

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:11:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 07/03/2008 17:11:01
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
...


The problem with making the Eos a fully fledged drone boat as people want is that it would be terribly overpowered compared to the other fleet command ships.

Balance comes before roles comes racial identities/flavor

Originally by: Jessica Molla

i thought we were talking about bonuses...we all know that guns on these ships are next to useless

and talking about bonuses, vultures bonuses are being much less used in large engagements than those of damnation, the same goes for an eos


They might be used less, but they are not any weaker. The shield bonuses are only slightly weaker than armor bonuses and can be just as strong considering the available ships.[As the rokh can be almost strictly better than the mega], and since most other ships wont have tanks or will have shield tanks and be benefiting as much or more from the shield links.

And the ewar bonuses are very very strong

And the guns on the Vulture are far from useless

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.07 17:44:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
...
And the ewar bonuses are very very strong

And the guns on the Vulture are far from useless
Now you are getting on the same level of ridiculousness that I see from recent Dev posts. There some truth in what you say, but you twist it, corrupting the final conclusion.

I'm kinda curious how do people get in that state of mind, to think like that? cause you are definitely not alone here. People who use twisted logic can't be convinced with normal logic. How could we ever agree?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.08 02:01:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Goumindong
...
And the ewar bonuses are very very strong

And the guns on the Vulture are far from useless
Now you are getting on the same level of ridiculousness that I see from recent Dev posts. There some truth in what you say, but you twist it, corrupting the final conclusion.

I'm kinda curious how do people get in that state of mind, to think like that? cause you are definitely not alone here. People who use twisted logic can't be convinced with normal logic. How could we ever agree?


Since i dont quite understand what you are talking about, I am sure you are going to explain what this twisted logic is and what this normal logic is that says that ewar links aren't good, and Vultures arent good in large fleets.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.03.08 03:50:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 07/03/2008 17:11:01
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
...


The problem with making the Eos a fully fledged drone boat as people want is that it would be terribly overpowered compared to the other fleet command ships.

Balance comes before roles comes racial identities/flavor


It's just way too early to jump to that conclusion, without even the vaguest idea of how the Eos could become a drone boat. Even 125m3 with a 10%/level damage bonus wouldn't be overpowered, if the rest of the ship was balanced appropriately. 5x Ogre II with a 50% damage bonus is actually less than what the Eos does now, if the guns and hybrid damage bonus are removed. So that's really a lot of room to work with.

And if that's just too powerful (but it isn't, in my opinion), there are other options. Maybe 100m3 would be a fair compromise. Maybe instead of a drone damage bonus, a bonus to ewar drones would be better. Maybe limit it to medium and light drones. There are a lot of possible ideas to consider before rejecting the general idea of making the Eos a proper ewar/drone boat.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.03.08 18:42:00 - [59]
 

in order for 125 + dmg to be balanced you would have to remove all but one of its high slots and all of its turrets. Then it cant run gang mods. Then its not an FCS.

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.03.09 16:13:00 - [60]
 

1. I stand corrected on some issues (cap drain, though it is still excessive when factoring in dual rep and blasters) , but calling the infolinks the "best" links for fleet warfare when they don't increase survivability in any way (in an environment where people put on as much armor/shield as possible just to stay alive during the fleet battle) is just crazy.

Furthermore, any FC worth his/her salt will primary the ecm ships, making any sensor strength boost limited at best (considering how little the boost is compared to 1 eccm, it probably wouldn't matter). I would take a potential 5-10k extra armor and increased effectiveness/less cap drain of all forms of armor rep modules over a bonus that I would most likely not be using.

2. 250mm rails on an eos will not fit with 3 gang mods, cap booster, mwd, dual rep, and/or plate without a fitting mod or some rigs, and quite frankly I will not put PG rigs on an eos in place of aux nano pumps or trimarks. Since 250mm rails are the only real choice for long range pvp, anything less is like not fitting them at all.

3. Why plate an eos when you can just get a damnation and plate that? The damnation has the most amazing buffer tank I have seen on a sub-capital ship. Futhermore, it actually benefits directly from its gang links (something every command ship does except the eos, unless you actually consider a cruddy eccm boost a native 'bonus' to gallente).

4. I wasn't clear on the dps issue. I should have probably elaborated. Yes the damnation doesn't outdamage the prophecy, but it tanks waaaay better. Claymore doesn't outdamage cyclone, but it has the potential to match its firepower (even if sacrificing gang mods). Vulture is the same as the claymore, only it can tank much better than the ferox. Eos can never match the damage potential of the brutix, and while it tanks better, this incerase in defense is nowhere near as substantial as seen with the damnation/vulture.

I should also be clear that I quite frankly do not care about the dps. The old eos was broken. The brutix fact just highlights how hard CCP hit the ship (5 nerfs, 4 direct and 1 indirect is just way too much IMO).

As for bubble combat, are you saying the Eos is only useful for static gatecamps? I don't even see a use for it there. Bubble camps aren't the epitome of tactical combat. You either kill things smaller than you or you run away. Simple as that. If you are referring to fleet combat, most ships have MWD's in that situation anyhow, so relying on a bubble when it is simple there to give your support a chance to get in range and tackle something (in which a claymore would make easier) seems like a waste.

Finally, the market is everything. If you believe the eos isn't selling because it isn't some solopwnmobile (I'm assuming from your "just because it isn't good for me doesn't mean it isn't good for everyonoe"), then why is the damnation more expensive? Why are any of the command ships more expensive? They aren't solopwnmobiles. Heck the damnation has wet tissue dps.
The prices on the eos are down because people aren't buying them. They aren't buying them because the only reason they DID buy them before was because they WERE solopwnmobiles, not because of their superior command abilities. Info-links have always been unpopular. Now that eos pilots have basically been shoe-horned into using them (whether they wanted to or not), people have stopped buying them.

The market is always a good indicator. If the price is cheap, then there is obviously something with the ship that just turns people off. You can go enjoy cheap Eos', but thinking they are cheap because people are stupid is probably no smarter.

I'm still convinced the Eos is broken beyond repair. It was never really fixed. It was a golden goose when it first came out, but as soon as it got plucked by CCP, everyone saw the lame duck that is truly was.


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