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Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:18:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
I have double checked this - any idea what is going on and what, if anything, we should do about it? Am I an anomaly?

I'm getting 33.6503039194% EM resistance with an Invulnerability Field II module active, 6% with it inactive (My EM shield compensation is level 2), and 0% EM resistance with it removed from the ship.

Shouldn't that be 30% with it active?

(I have no ship bonuses or implants that would affect it)


I checked and have the same. 0% EM when offline, 12% when online but inactive, and 37.3006078387% when online (with T2 Invul Field, 30% resistance bonus).
I checked if both bonusses were active at the same time, but the math doesn't seem to work out:
0 + (100*.12) = 12%
12 + (88*.30) = 38.4%

I must be missing something Neutral

Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:27:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 14/07/2009 17:34:50
Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 14/07/2009 16:42:48
It looks like a bonus is being applied when the hardener's active. Maybe they broke something (again) in the patch?

Edit:

Confirmed, 0% offline, 15% inactive and 39.1% active.

Also confirmed with a T2 photon hardnener: 0% offline, 15% inactive and 60.7% active.

Something's screwy going on here...


Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.07.14 17:44:00 - [63]
 

Doing some number crunching on the resistances we have with level 2, 4 and 5 in EM compensation skill and a T2 Invul field, assuming there is a 30% base resistance without the skill, there appears to be an approximate 6% bonus per level gain.

However this breaks down with a T2 Photon hardener as I only have a 10.7% gain above base with level 5 (55 base and 60.7% observed).

Comparing the theoretical resistances I calculate with the observed resistances of a T2 invul field and a T2 photon hardener shows no obvious pattern.

Given the number of decimal places observed, there must be another factor involved somewhere... maybe the stacking nerf?

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.07.14 17:58:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Marine HK4861
Given the number of decimal places observed, there must be another factor involved somewhere... maybe the stacking nerf?


That's what I was missing, thanks Smile

Using my numbers:
30 + 70*.12*.86911998 = 37.30060784

So the resistance bonus applies even when the module is active.
I'll file a bug report later tonight.

Marine HK4861
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.07.14 18:00:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Marine HK4861 on 14/07/2009 18:00:53
Found it - the 3% bonus is being applied as a stacking penalty bonus. Very Happy

Edit: Dammit, ninja'ed by 2 minutes. Crying or Very sad

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.07.14 21:57:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Marine HK4861
Found it - the 3% bonus is being applied as a stacking penalty bonus. Very Happy

Edit: Dammit, ninja'ed by 2 minutes. Crying or Very sad


I was only able to ninja you because you already figured out what was the problem Wink

The bug report ID is 82252.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.07.15 11:56:00 - [67]
 

I received a reply that they're already aware of the problem...

Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
Amarr
J0urneys End
Posted - 2009.07.15 12:22:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar on 15/07/2009 15:00:57
Nice work guys, and thanks!

KissedByDeath
Posted - 2009.07.25 08:12:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador

That's what I was missing, thanks Smile

Using my numbers:
30 + 70*.12*.86911998 = 37.30060784

So the resistance bonus applies even when the module is active.
I'll file a bug report later tonight.


I hate u :(
I enjoyed the new bonuses damnitLaughing

DarthCaboose
Posted - 2009.08.14 02:13:00 - [70]
 

This is a really good thread for the newbies to see, keep this bumped!

I've noticed that while Connections and Diplomacy does affect your CONCORD faction (and corporation) standing, it doesn't change your security status at all. On that point, does doing missions for CONCORD agents also increase your security status?

Gouverneur
Posted - 2009.08.14 18:19:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: DarthCaboose
does doing missions for CONCORD agents also increase your security status?
CONCORD Agents dont offer any Missions anymore.

Ellena Manim
Posted - 2009.09.17 02:28:00 - [72]
 

Wow! All these explanation are quite good.

Here's a suggestion to extend the list; Nanite Control.

Despite having it clearly stated that it affect combat booster, I've seen many mid-level player (looking at overheating for the 1st time) mistake that skill to be related to the Nanite Operation and Nanite Interfacing.


Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.09.17 23:39:00 - [73]
 

Thanks Smile

I haven't updated the thread in ages. Perhaps I should take some time to do that - it just seems I always have other things to do (both rl and Eve).

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:49:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/10/2009 19:53:22

Why oh why can't CCP have simple skill descriptions?

Guided Missile Precision: 5% reduction in explosion radius per level, for guided missiles only.

Skill at precision missile homing. Proficiency at this skill increases the accuracy of a fired missile's exact point of impact, resulting in greater damage to small targets. 5% decreased factor of signature radius for light, heavy and cruise missile explosions per level of skill.

Target Navigation Prediction: 10% increase in explosion velocity per level, for all missiles.

Proficiency at optimizing a missile's flight path to negate the effects of a target's speed upon the explosion's impact. 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:12:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/10/2009 19:53:22

Why oh why can't CCP have simple skill descriptions?

Guided Missile Precision: 5% reduction in explosion radius per level, for guided missiles only.

Skill at precision missile homing. Proficiency at this skill increases the accuracy of a fired missile's exact point of impact, resulting in greater damage to small targets. 5% decreased factor of signature radius for light, heavy and cruise missile explosions per level of skill.

Target Navigation Prediction: 10% increase in explosion velocity per level, for all missiles.

Proficiency at optimizing a missile's flight path to negate the effects of a target's speed upon the explosion's impact. 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles.



I haven't done the math, but perhaps your descriptions are wrong?

10% increase in explosion velocity is not necessarily the same as 10% decrease in the factor of target's velocity. Again, I haven't done the math or tested, so I can't attest to how it's actually applied, but those descriptions are different.

For example, A 100 m/s explosion velocity. 10% increase would be a 110 m/s explosion velocity in the calcs. Or a 150 m/s target velocity. With a 10% decrease in the factor of the target's velocity the calculations would behave as if a 100 m/s explosion velocity missile was hitting a 135 m/s target (-15 m/s is 10% of 150).

Again, disclaimer, I haven't tested actually implementation, but your adjusted description is different.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:54:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/10/2009 20:55:05
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
I haven't done the math, but perhaps your descriptions are wrong?

You should be able to check the ammo info in-game (that's what it shows up for in EFT) on the fitting screen.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:07:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 07/10/2009 00:07:10
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
I haven't done the math, but perhaps your descriptions are wrong?

10% increase in explosion velocity is not necessarily the same as 10% decrease in the factor of target's velocity. Again, I haven't done the math or tested, so I can't attest to how it's actually applied, but those descriptions are different.

For example, A 100 m/s explosion velocity. 10% increase would be a 110 m/s explosion velocity in the calcs. Or a 150 m/s target velocity. With a 10% decrease in the factor of the target's velocity the calculations would behave as if a 100 m/s explosion velocity missile was hitting a 135 m/s target (-15 m/s is 10% of 150).

Again, disclaimer, I haven't tested actually implementation, but your adjusted description is different.


Good points Dretzle, but wrong conclusion. CCP's and Tau's descriptions being different and leading to different results indeed means someone is wrong - but it's not Tau. Many skills have descriptions which are convoluted or simply wrong, the attributes tab shows what the skills do exactly and how they do it. The problem probably is that the descriptions were made to be sound interesting instead of being made to be informative.

Note that ROF bonusses (both skills and modules) have similar problems with the description and actual effects. CCP claims they give a ROF bonus but instead they give a reduction in cycle time (which has a similar effect, but different calculations/results with the same numbers).

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.12.08 12:35:00 - [78]
 

Bump to keep thread open Cool


On a sidenote, has anyone else noted weird behaviour of the Connections/Diplomacy skills? Right now all corps I have positive standings with use Connections even if their faction is negative to me.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.12.22 21:05:00 - [79]
 

*puts on dunce cap*

Here's one somebody can explain to me:

Projected Electronic Countermeasures
Operation of projected ECM jamming systems. Each skill level gives a 5% reduction in module activation time.

Does this reduce the duration of the jam too, or just the activation of the ECM module?


Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.12.22 21:47:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 22/12/2009 21:47:59
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/10/2009 20:55:05
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
I haven't done the math, but perhaps your descriptions are wrong?

You should be able to check the ammo info in-game (that's what it shows up for in EFT) on the fitting screen.


I was reading at work and didn't have access to Eve, sorry.

Originally by: Estel Arador
Good points Dretzle, but wrong conclusion. CCP's and Tau's descriptions being different and leading to different results indeed means someone is wrong - but it's not Tau. Many skills have descriptions which are convoluted or simply wrong, the attributes tab shows what the skills do exactly and how they do it. The problem probably is that the descriptions were made to be sound interesting instead of being made to be informative.


Yes, I've noticed CCP isn't always spot on with their descriptions. Smile

Originally by: Estel Arador
Bump to keep thread open Cool


On a sidenote, has anyone else noted weird behaviour of the Connections/Diplomacy skills? Right now all corps I have positive standings with use Connections even if their faction is negative to me.


I guess I didn't pay attention before. I think I would expect if you have positive standings with a corp, that corp itself will use the Connections skill. That's what it's for. Switches to Diplomacy when you have negative standings.

Corp and factions seem to be two separate entities in the database and any calculations, even though conceptually a corp belongs to a certain faction. Then, when checking things, like if you can work for an agent, they check multiple factors, like standings to the faction being above -2 (though, since Dominion, not for low level low quality agents).

So... working as designed? Otherwise you could go into a minor negative with the faction because you have Diplomacy 5 but Connections 0 (extreme example), and your positive standing with the corp now uses the level 5 diplomacy skill. 'twould seem a bit off, to me.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2009.12.24 11:07:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Does this reduce the duration of the jam too, or just the activation of the ECM module?


No idea, sorry. I'd guess only the activation, but I don't have a shred of evidence for that Razz

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
I guess I didn't pay attention before. I think I would expect if you have positive standings with a corp, that corp itself will use the Connections skill. That's what it's for. Switches to Diplomacy when you have negative standings.

(...)

So... working as designed? Otherwise you could go into a minor negative with the faction because you have Diplomacy 5 but Connections 0 (extreme example), and your positive standing with the corp now uses the level 5 diplomacy skill. 'twould seem a bit off, to me.

It used to work as I described. If the faction standing is negative, all standings (faction, corp, agent) are boosted by Diplomacy and if the faction standing is positive, all standings (faction, corp, agent) are boosted by Connections. That indeed did leed to weird situations where for instance your effective standing would drop when you went from negative faction standing to positive faction standing.

Now it seems to just apply Connections to all positive standings and Diplomacy to all negative standings. I haven't seen any patchnotes to this effect though.


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