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Minsuki
Metafarmers
Posted - 2008.02.17 03:28:00 - [61]
 

A mass reduction also makes sense fluffwise, I mean, Caldari ships focus on shields at the expense of armor and structure. The downside of shield tanking is a larger sig radius, the downside of armor tanking is higher mass. Currently they get high mass and a large sig radius.

Flamewave
Crimson Moon Society
Posted - 2008.02.17 08:48:00 - [62]
 

I think people in here are missing the point that Caldari don't need speed in order to be good at what they do. Don't blame the ships when you don't know how to use them right. :P

Honestly and truthfully, Caldari are fine as they are right now - and especially fine when the 1.1 patch hits.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.17 09:25:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Ghostwarden
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Merin Ryskin


2) Caldari ships are way too slow. The entire race is designed around having a range advantage, but they have no real way to keep it.



Ill ignore point 1 because you know just how dumb it is. But for point two...

Caldari ships are not way to slow. If the race with the longest range can also keep that range, no one else can compete in pretty much any type of pvp.


Ok, no offense but I find you argument to be a load of ****.
From my experience with PVP (and in specific solo PVP) you need to be within 20-30k of your target so that you can keep him from running. Giving the Caldari ships the ability to keep the range open to take advantage of range also means that the other player has the option of running away and thus no kill. Opening the range in solo PVP just means that the other man can get away easier.

Ghost


A very good point here. I think that you have hit on a big problem here because if you can't jam their warp drive, the fight is pointless. Perhaps CCP needs to re-examine the mechanics of pvp combat to allow for mid ranged pvp on a small scale to occur. Heck it might even be an idea to change the dymanics of warp jamming to allow for longer ranged jammers for high slots and bump up the warp stregnth of all the other jamers by 1 (so the long range is 1, medium 2, and short 3) and create a passive option for overloading your warp drive to increase your warp strenth by 1 by using a crap load of capacitor. This would make running difficult and add a bit of spice to that while allowing for everybody to equip a jammer one way or another. With some refinement that idea might also make warp scramblers more useful. I think that if Caldari ships could at least have a fight at which starts at range, then their racial advantage would have more substance.

I also was thinking that a possible change in racial advantages and disadvantages to allow for Caldari ships to have a naturally higher Scan resolution. This would make sense since via lore Caldari depend greatly on technology and it would not be a stregth to say they would have the best sensors. This wouldn't really break any balance and be a meaningful bonus since the race generally has difficultly with utility and while it woludn't compensate for the help of a sensor booster, it will help make the need for them less dire as you might have noticed that most Caldari boats also have the worst scan resolution.



Also, I don't recall ever hearing a rule or any supporting text or lore that states that Caldari must have crap solo ships.

Isis Dea
Minmatar
Modal Cortex
IDENTITY UNKN0WN
Posted - 2008.02.17 10:49:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou
Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 05/02/2008 23:58:35
Originally by: Zanquis
Luna Nilaya

You are entitled to your own opinion and its obvious you do not agree. However you have offered nothing constructive to this argument and therefore if you have nothing to contribute you should not post here. Poking fun at what you do not agree with will not give you anything that remotely resembles an argument of substance or even a point.


And you are doing the same thing... Instead of trying to refute his argument, you insult his posting maturity (I can't believe I am defending a goon :P).

I would prefer to be with a falcon/rook to any other recon in the game for small gang pvp. I would even go as far as to say that ECM is overpowered on those recons. You mention a vaga could chase off a falcon... How is that different from any other recon (bar amarr ofc, but amarr recons don't really have 'gang-oriented' bonuses)? Would a arazu be able to stand ground if a vaga charges at it? At least the falcon as the advantage of range an therefore more time to ECM away.

Caldari do NOT have subpar gunboats. After the eagle boost, it will be an uber antisupport ship and the rokh is flat out the best t1 sniper.

I am strongly against a caldari solo vagabond-esque sort of ship. If every ship gets a solo ship, and a fleet ship, and a close range ship, etc, then we might as well as fly one race. Variety is a good thing.


His point is in the modern PvP fight, "how often are snipers present?" Nearly not at all due to jam range failures and need of support tackle power. Even in gang fights, snipers can only truely function in either a gatecamp or POS siege.
While ECM is very effective, a Scorpion these days has the most ill-favored of battleships due to ECM being chanced based. (Right now a Kitsune is a more perfered choice for the role, being faster and cheaper. However, thats besides the point.)

If your luck is bad (as in really bad), you might find a Vaga ripping the shreads out of a Rook (I've done it before). This all goes along with the tank vs. tackle concept he refers to.

Logistics are ineffective, as he said. I think we all can agree on that unless you are running an all-caldari gang (which will probably get spanked to any other racial gang of same number and roles).

Solution? Well, if I had to do something simple, I'd just add a few low slots to the Caldari vessels and watch the armor tankers have fun (which is currently what is happening with the Minmatar that aren't speed tanking).

Minsuki
Metafarmers
Posted - 2008.02.17 18:57:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Isis Dea

Solution? Well, if I had to do something simple, I'd just add a few low slots to the Caldari vessels and watch the armor tankers have fun (which is currently what is happening with the Minmatar that aren't speed tanking).




....what?

Azirapheal
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.02.17 19:58:00 - [66]
 

i wholeheartedly agree with the op, the caldari should have their mass reduced and ag increased. we should also remove the stacking nerfs on nanofibres and istabs to allow them to orbit, say a machariel in a raven, never missing.

Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.17 20:26:00 - [67]
 

I agree too. The mass on caldari ship should be reduce. I also approve the option of warfare on high slot like webber and such.

I've been playing for the past few mounth on singularity only with my main character. I was pvp solo and found out that caldari ship had problem to compete againts other ship like Gallente for example ( a race I can fly well too ). This is mainly due to the lack of warfare used on caldari ship as it was point it out many time on this thread. Just to give you an example. As it was pointed out before, you only have to get out of the 25-30 km range in order to warp, so if you want to prevent that you have to webbe your enemy or find an other way to prevent it like high speed for example. Problem is that cost you an med slot you can't afford cause that will weaken you a lot in your cap recharge or shield tanking depending on what you sacrifice. You then have to fit a warp scrambler in order to prevent it from warping out .. that cost you another med slot and means the same as the webber. If you don't have any of those option ... well there are no good chance really of killing your oppenen if you are not the one that is killed cause you are warp scramble, webbed and such.

Yes I think 1 vs 1 pvp should be taken into consideration.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.17 20:26:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Zanquis

Also, I don't recall ever hearing a rule or any supporting text or lore that states that Caldari must have crap solo ships.


Nothing says they must. But for a second, lets break this up into two points.

1. Lore is not a valid reason to balance ships.
2. There are valid game balance and mechanical reasons why longer ranged ships cannot be good solo ships.

The first should be obvious. The lore is designed around what makes a good story and not what makes good game balance. In the Lore, both the Gallente and Caldari when meeting the Amarr pretty soundly trounced them. And the Minmitar were driven before the Amarr like nothing. These do not make good balance points.

As for the game balance reasons.

If you take the ships which perform best in gangs and make them also good solo ships, its pushes out the other ships wich dont perform best in gangs. I.E. why would you fly a ship that was both outclassed as a solo ship and as a gang ship?

Caldari ships are excellent in gangs. They perform specific roles better than any other ships in the game.




Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.17 20:34:00 - [69]
 

I would like you to explain me why caldari are the best in gang? I can't figure it out.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.17 20:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Lebrun
I would like you to explain me why caldari are the best in gang? I can't figure it out.


Because in a gang the Three strongest factors are range, ewar, and EHP

These are the things that caldari does best, while having the strongest defenses against them.


Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.18 01:41:00 - [71]
 

I admit I have little experience in pvp gang. The op I have assisted was in close range only so we could use warfare such as scrambler, webber ... The only time I was in long range was during pos take down cause we didn'T need warfare. In pos take down anyway any race can do the job as well as Caldari here so no big deal here.

For the pvp in gang at long range there is still the prob of scrambling your enemy. What is the point of setting up a op if you can't kill your enemy?

Thanks in advance for your reply

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 03:29:00 - [72]
 

Dictors, Hictors, Arazus, rapiers, interdiction manuvers, overloading.

Mix and match.

Minsuki
Metafarmers
Posted - 2008.02.18 03:48:00 - [73]
 

Wait. Let's get this argument straight.

1. The caldari have ships that do well in gangs.
2. Therefore, they should not have ships that do well solo.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.18 04:28:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Zanquis on 18/02/2008 04:40:40
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Vanessa Lebrun
I would like you to explain me why caldari are the best in gang? I can't figure it out.


Because in a gang the Three strongest factors are range, ewar, and EHP

These are the things that caldari does best, while having the strongest defenses against them.




I think you have made it quite clear that the majority of your experience is based on the type of fights Goonswarm gets involved in which I like to call fleet warfare. In that situation much of your statements which you arrogantly seem to believe absolute are true. However in any smaller scale fight with a gang, factors such as speed, agility, and damage are of absolute importance. Small gangs must be agile and mobile in order choose the battlefield and circumstance of the fight. Do not mistake agility to mean they have to be nano fit and all frigs and cruisers as battlecruisers and bellow are agile enough to accomplish this. In these fights there is little to no chance to setup and therefore most of the fights will occur with all targets within 30KM to start. EHP is still fantastic here but active tanks can preform well in this situation unlike fleet engagements. Due to a reduced amount of numbers every little bit counts so if your not ewar you should play either a logistics, tackle, Ewar, or prime damage dealer role. Caldari is not the best choice for any of these roles except in ewar because of the overall power of ECM on TQ. Due to the general lack of utility associated with shield tanking, and lack of ability to fill the majority of the roles available, Caldari players are Ewar or they can pass as additive damage.

Continued in next post...

Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.18 04:29:00 - [75]
 

Caldari might be well in gang as much as other race so why not as much good as other races in solo? Between I would like to explain a bit more your point of view when you says for example caldari are best for or that. Cause sometime you put it like if it was a fact and it's not from my point of view. Explain a bit more please.

Well it make no sense to me to says that caldari are better than other race in gang. Why would they be? No warfare can be use on these ship exept if you severly sacrifice in your defence. The only way to get warfare is to have another race in your gang ... that prove the weakness of caldari in order to have scrambler and webber. You depend on an other race isn't that. Second why do you say because Caldari or well in gang they should not be well in solo? Why would they be the only race to suck in solo pvp while the other race are just as fine as caldari in gang from my point of view. Please if your opinion is different explain it to me. Don't just say Caldari are good for pve so they should not be good in pvp! End of the topic!!!

Thanks for your time.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.18 04:38:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Zanquis on 18/02/2008 04:52:44
...continued from previous post

Typical roles for gang warfare and how Caldari generally fits with them...
Tackle
->Typically too slow to close range fast enough
->Lack of utility prevents nessicary tools such as warp disruption in conjunction with web
->Most Caldari ships have among the lowest scan resolution of all races and the addition of a sensor booster is required, see above point for why its a problem

Ewar
->Absolute best here because ECM is the most effective force multiplier
->Caldari is the only race with ECM ships which is the only possible way to effectively use ECM
->Large selection of ECM ships available in all sizes. In particular the Blackbird stands out as an inexpensive ECM boat in the base cruiser lineup

Logistics
->Logistics ships use shield transfers which supports the least popular form of tank. While this can still play an effective role in a battle, any logistics ship which provides armor support is preferred.
->Caldari ships are the worst ships to adapt to a logistics role due to their lack of mobility. Adapted logistics ships have relatively short range on their modules and need to compensate by using speed to reach the target of their support.
-> Gallante are typically preferred here since their drone ships can often be converted into great logistics ships since they have decent mobility, and can provide significant damage and/or flexibility through the size of their drone bay (opposite of Caldari who has little to no drone bay)

Primary Damage
->Since most Caldari gun boats lack any damage bonus and they are sluggish and dependent on range, using blasters is a poor choice as it doesn't play to the strengths of Caldari ships. As a result Caldari gun boats can preform the damage role but not very effectively since their overall dps is generally low and while they can be augmented through the use of additional damage mods, the end result might give them average dps, but never high dps. In short smaller scale engagements do not play to the strenghts of Caldari gun boats
->Caldari missile boats are consistent reliable damage but their dps will always be average at best (which is typical for reliable weaponry). Since its unrealistic to change missile types during gang fights and most Caldari boats only give kinetic missile damage bonus, that advantage does little. Since most gang fights are consistently close range, and it is unrealistic to change your damage in a gang fight (and most Caldari ships only gain a kinetic damage bonus) this doesn't utilize the flexibility of missile weapons over gunnery. Most choice gunnery setups for gang pvp are close range high damage weapons (blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers) which utilize great mobility and speed. Due to the massive difference in DPS for these boats and Caldari ships combined with the common ability to close to weapons range within 10 seconds (generally faster since the opponent wants to close range too) the consistency of damage is of little advantage. It all boils down to the range in which gang fights occur in eve's game system. If battles started from longer ranges, the strength of range would be of larger importance and Caldari ships strenghts would shine.

The end result is that Caldari has few roles they can choose to play in gang warfare. If your not playing Ewar your additive damage. That means your not particularly good at playing the damage role but just average. What I would like to see is a bit more choice on the Caldari side in these types of engagements.

As an alternative I would be more then happy if CCP made modifications to the gameplay of Eve which resulted in more battles starting from mid range (30-60KM) and coming to a climax. If fights could start and be resolved (that doesn't mean one side just decides to run away since you can't scram them) at mid range then the Caldari range advantage would have purpose.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 05:39:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Minsuki
Wait. Let's get this argument straight.

1. The caldari have ships that do well in gangs.
2. Therefore, they should not have ships that do well solo.


No, caldari have ships that are the absolute best in gangs to fill the roles those gangs use, therefore those same ships should not do well solo. As well, they have ships that are generally more usefull in gangs than their competitors and so those ships should not be as usefull solo.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 06:00:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Zanquis
Active tanks


No, they cant. The strongest of Active tanks[7 full slots on an Abaddon+3 rigs] fail under even mild concentrated firepower. At about 2000-2500 dps is where a plated setup starts to be better than a repairing setup.

Small gangs should be agile and mobile, and guess what? Caldari are not only the most agile, but their prefered tanking method is the most mobile as well.

Caldari is a beutiful choice as a primary damage dealer in the raven and drake. The Raven does freaking gank blasterthron DPS to 30km. The drake does not as much, but doesnt have any problems shooting smaller ships. The Rokh has a similar damage profile to the Full gank Armageddon or full Gank Abaddon in terms of time to kill and its only weakness is its less than average EHP against lasers.

Yes, Caldari is not the best option in small gangs, though they do have clear choices which are very strong in that area. This is because they are the clear, best choice for large gang. Again, if they were the best choice for small gang and large gang who would fly anything else? Its the same condition as the solo/gang difference except on the scale.

You mention that fights start within 30km, but then fail to mention that no other race has weapons that will hit to 30km without long range ammo and even then, half of them will barely do that. The ability to fire upon new targets faster is invaluable in gangs, because otherwise you are going to waste valuable time moving from target to target. A Megathron has an optimal of 5km and a falloff of roughly 9 with CN AM L. In order to shoot two targets 20km away from each other, he has to burn to one, then burn to the other. The Mega is less agile than the Raven[slower typicially as well, due to rigging]. If it takes the Mega 10 seconds to close the distances then a raven would be about 8,000 damage ahead of him for dealing damage.

The Basilisk is the single best coordinated Logistics cruiser in the game[that is, when you pick and choose your gang to work togother]. Especially if you have two. Its the only one which can both circle jerk cap and defend against all types of applicable ewar. As well, it is repping shields, which, due to the strength of invuln fields, typicially have higher resists than armor tanks without sacrificing damage mods.

The Crow is a fantastic tackler and all around ship, and the raptor is still a tackle inty despite being tied for 3rd with the Malediction. Cladari also have the single best ewar cruisers in the game, and have the largest ability of their damage dealers to fit ewar as well

So yea, if you arent tackling: Crow/Raptor

Ewar: Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion

Logistics: Basilisk

or

Primary damage dealer: Drake, Raven, Rokh

Then i suppose you dont have much of a suitable role in a small gang now do you?

Caldari are ONLY at a loss when they have to do everything at the same time, and even then there are a few ships[Rokh, Raven, Drake(The New Moa will be ok as well)] which still perform well enough if you dont fit foolishly[mwd, scram, web, inv, inv, lse + DC, dmg, dmg, dmg, +speed/agility +shield size rigs: Optional drop the web on the raven and drake for more EHP] will perform perfectly well in the role.

No, you dont get to be best in everything, too bad.

Julius Romanus
Amarr
Posted - 2008.02.18 06:19:00 - [79]
 

Caldari are not broken. A good portion of their fleet received a buff, the ships that could use it. Unless you're citing a specific ship with a specific problem you aren't going to get much.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.18 11:16:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Zanquis
Active tanks

Small gangs should be agile and mobile, and guess what? Caldari are not only the most agile, but their prefered tanking method is the most mobile as well.

Caldari is a beutiful choice as a primary damage dealer in the raven and drake. The Raven does freaking gank blasterthron DPS to 30km. The drake does not as much, but doesnt have any problems shooting smaller ships. The Rokh has a similar damage profile to the Full gank Armageddon or full Gank Abaddon in terms of time to kill and its only weakness is its less than average EHP against lasers.

Yes, Caldari is not the best option in small gangs, though they do have clear choices which are very strong in that area. This is because they are the clear, best choice for large gang. Again, if they were the best choice for small gang and large gang who would fly anything else? Its the same condition as the solo/gang difference except on the scale.

You mention that fights start within 30km, but then fail to mention that no other race has weapons that will hit to 30km without long range ammo and even then, half of them will barely do that. The ability to fire upon new targets faster is invaluable in gangs, because otherwise you are going to waste valuable time moving from target to target. A Megathron has an optimal of 5km and a falloff of roughly 9 with CN AM L. In order to shoot two targets 20km away from each other, he has to burn to one, then burn to the other. The Mega is less agile than the Raven[slower typicially as well, due to rigging]. If it takes the Mega 10 seconds to close the distances then a raven would be about 8,000 damage ahead of him for dealing damage.

The Basilisk is the single best coordinated Logistics cruiser in the game[that is, when you pick and choose your gang to work togother]. Especially if you have two. Its the only one which can both circle jerk cap and defend against all types of applicable ewar. As well, it is repping shields, which, due to the strength of invuln fields, typicially have higher resists than armor tanks without sacrificing damage mods.

The Crow is a fantastic tackler and all around ship, and the raptor is still a tackle inty despite being tied for 3rd with the Malediction. Cladari also have the single best ewar cruisers in the game, and have the largest ability of their damage dealers to fit ewar as well

So yea, if you arent tackling: Crow/Raptor

Ewar: Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion

Logistics: Basilisk

or

Primary damage dealer: Drake, Raven, Rokh

Then i suppose you dont have much of a suitable role in a small gang now do you?

Caldari are ONLY at a loss when they have to do everything at the same time, and even then there are a few ships[Rokh, Raven, Drake(The New Moa will be ok as well)] which still perform well enough if you dont fit foolishly[mwd, scram, web, inv, inv, lse + DC, dmg, dmg, dmg, +speed/agility +shield size rigs: Optional drop the web on the raven and drake for more EHP] will perform perfectly well in the role.

No, you dont get to be best in everything, too bad.


I said within 30KM, that doesn't mean all fights start at 30KM. In fact most situations I have seen them start between 15-20KM and you honestly do not account for the fact that most of these ships have a mwd which allows them to travel at least 1KM/s and in most cases your damage dealers also have one and will be using it to close range quickly too. DPS of a blastertron? You truly are wacked out of your mind, stop playing EFT and play more EvE (FYI the range shown in EFT is total distance traveled and that only translates directly into range if the target is staionary. If its moving the missles track and follow using up more of the distance traveled). I really don't know where to stop picking your post apart because you left me too many options. Honestly, I think I am done even arguing with you. This post really shows that you have no idea what your talking about.

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.02.18 12:13:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Lebrun
I agree too. The mass on caldari ship should be reduce. I also approve the option of warfare on high slot like webber and such.

Ask yourself if you really want to see gallente with two extra mids.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.02.18 13:17:00 - [82]
 

Not very agile? Check the stats again. Caldari battleships are pretty agile since they were boosted.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 14:18:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2008 14:24:23
Originally by: Zanquis

I said within 30KM, that doesn't mean all fights start at 30KM. In fact most situations I have seen them start between 15-20KM and you honestly do not account for the fact that most of these ships have a mwd which allows them to travel at least 1KM/s and in most cases your damage dealers also have one and will be using it to close range quickly too. DPS of a blastertron? You truly are wacked out of your mind, stop playing EFT and play more EvE (FYI the range shown in EFT is total distance traveled and that only translates directly into range if the target is staionary. If its moving the missles track and follow using up more of the distance traveled). I really don't know where to stop picking your post apart because you left me too many options. Honestly, I think I am done even arguing with you. This post really shows that you have no idea what your talking about


A max skilled plated Megathron is going to go about 1000m/s yup. And how long will it take him to get to that speed? 23.6 seconds to get to 3/4 speed. Assuming an even acceleration[and acceleration is NOT even it slows down a lot at top speed.], that means it takes him 15 seconds to go the first 3750 meters. But since we accelerate faster at the low end, lets make it 5km and be very kind with regards to physics[because in 15 seconds you will have accelerated to just over 500m/s and we are giving you 5km of travel in those 15 seconds].

So if the fight starts at 15km, the blasterthron is doing less than its max DPS for at least 15 seconds and the Raven is doing its max DPS. Then the mega closes to its target, bumps it, and is still doing less DPS due to tracking and the Raven is doing full DPS.

Or that how any target that is moving enough to significantly reduce the range on siege missiles is moving enough never be damaged ever by a blasterthron?

ed: In fact a Raven with no speed mods is both more agile, and faster than a plated-trimarked mega.

ed2: I dont know what game you are playing, but you should stop it and start fitting damage mods.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.02.18 14:24:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 18/02/2008 14:50:11
Caldari are quite good in PvP nowadays. The main problem I've seen so far is that Caldari players haven't adjusted to their short-range weapons (HAML, Torp) being useful, so they still fit the long-range ones and wonder why that's not comparable. Fit the "short"-range missiles and an MWD. :-)

HAML Drake vs. typical single-repping, single-plated Hurricane? Drake has more DPS even at Hurricane's optimal, twice the range, more EHP, the same "active" tank (except it doesn't run out of cap), and is a good deal more agile. To compensate, it lacks a web (to fit one, you drop in EH about 10% below the Hurricane), and is some 175m/s slower with MWD on.

Torp Raven has caused Megathron pilots to whine all over these forums because it basically out-damages them at triple range.

What Caldari ships lack is solo capability (in the above Drake/Hurricane example, the Hurricane can always leave). If you bring a group of people, so part of the group tackles, the other group deals damage, you have a very strong setup.

And yes, Caldari ships are nowadays among the most agile of all ships in their categories. Minmatar ships usually are more agile, but that's over as soon as they fit a plate.


Caldari strengths are:
- Good tank&gank
- Very agile
- Enormous range even with close-range weapons (Javelins)

Weaknesses:
- Special-purpose (i.e. you have a damage dealer, or a tackler, or an ewar ship, no mixes)
- Comparably slow

What Caldari need is a boost to their railboats, as those are sub-par. Like, what they're getting with the next changes. The missile boats are very nice ever since the HAML and torp boosts.

Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.18 16:06:00 - [85]
 

You guys have to notice the powergrid problem on caldari ship. You have a lot of ideas but most of them look unpractical to me for many reasons. I'm talking about 1 vs 1 bs here.

1.it demands too much powergrid when you are talking about putting 6 laucher, MW, shield booster, cap booster (other wise you can't use your MW for long with tanking)...

2. Every time you a put a setup in place by putting fitting in the med slot or low slot please keep in mind that some low slot are generally reserve for powergrid boost as we have no choice if we want to have torpedo+shield booster+cap booster. Depending on the setup another one might be require to put a cpu upgrade. For the med slot. A shield booster, a cap booster, shield hardner and shield amplifier are required if you don't want to get pod quite soon. I never seen any other way on Sisi of tanking for caldari BS. So we can't just fit a mwd in order to neglet a weakness. Yes Caldari are very agile but they are also the most heavier in mass. So they will turn fast but acelerate slower. Can't see the point of turning faster if you can't warp, so it's not exactly an advantage in close range.

Caldari does have nice advantage however. It's true that we can deal damage in all the resistance (EM, Thermal, Kinetic, Explosive) an advantage the other race do not have. This only helps a bit, blaster and laser damage are still higher and it takes a lot of time considering into account that you have to fire every kind of missile separatly in order to see what resistance is the best choice. If your lucky enough your oppenen have a big weakness in one resistance and will lose the fight. But this is only true against noob. Most player have = resistance are +- =. So considering the time it take to reaload the best resistance once you finally got all their shield down in order to see those damm resistance in the armor and then fire them at your enemy.

For those how says Caldari are the best in gang I'm really sorry but I can'T still see why really. You have told me some ship name that were good and I can do the same for all other races, so? It prove nothing. In addition some of you just said it as a fact without any valuable arguments that support your ideas. It make me feel you just don't want to see caldari in close range pvp in the future. I might be wrong and if it's the case please don't says come on you stupid ______ but explain your point of view to me with arguments please.

Thanks for your time.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 16:22:00 - [86]
 

Solution: Don't fit shield boosters.

Vanessa Lebrun
Posted - 2008.02.18 16:24:00 - [87]
 

And how are you gonna tank? lol

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2008.02.18 16:57:00 - [88]
 

1) Most Caldari ships cannot afford to use a midlots for a microwarpdrive.
2) Most Caldari ships cannot afford the powergrid for a microwarpdrive.
3) Caldari ships have the highest mass meaning speed mods have comparably less effect since the much needed changes to inertia stabilizers, nanofibers and overdrives.

Run the numbers on any given Caldari ship from any given tier, and you'll find that at least 75% of their ships are slower than every other. Compare the most common "nanoships" from each race and you'll see that yet again, the Caldari ships are considerably slower.

Now add 5% to the base Caldari speed and add the MWD bonus on top of these ships, and you'll notice they are STILL considerably slower. Remember that having the highest mass means that their acceleration will still be poor, so in any situation where the Caldari ship has not already built up speed, they will lose their range advantage in short order.

Let's try a 5% speed buff, and see if it breaks things. Conjecture won't get us anywhere, but trying it will.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.18 17:09:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Lebrun
And how are you gonna tank? lol


The same way everyone else tanks. Extenders or plates.

Ghostwarden
Posted - 2008.02.18 18:08:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Vanessa Lebrun
And how are you gonna tank? lol


The same way everyone else tanks. Extenders or plates.


Extenters are only useful if you can get you HP up high enough to passive tank. If your passive tanking you had better be able to set up with high resists as well. So if your flying the Drake, Rokh, command ship (or the Moa now) then fitting extenders just make you a little harder to kill.

And as for the Plates.....get real.....lets add some more mass to the biggest lard but ships in the game while only giving them a slight boost to their already POOR armor tanking ability.

I dont mind you arguing against the OP but these suggestions are just plain laim Goumindong.

Ghost


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