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Svenjabi Xiang
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.02.06 21:27:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
In my opinion, the biggest problem with shield tanking battleships is the lack of mid slots.

armor tanking bs have 7-8 mid slots.

Shield tanking bs max out at 6, same number as some battlecruisers get.

Swap a low for a med?


I knew someone would put something out there just to make me spew beer on my monitor. You owe me a 21" trinitron. Very Happy Serously, make me day better and try to tell me you even went and looked at the armor tanking battleships. c'mon.. I need a good laugh.


Athanasios Anastasiou
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.02.06 21:47:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Zanquis

Of all the races Caldari is least flexible in terms of options. I support this by pointing out...
1) No choice of tank type (Armor tanking ships can choose between armor tank or speed tank since speed tanking also is low slot heavy)


Just they have more low slots does not mean they are qualified to speedtank. I have yet to see a nano-abbadon used seriously, despite its uber amount of low slots.
Caldari can zoom too; case in point: nanocerb.

Originally by: Zanquis

2) No choice of combat style. (Sniper or nothing right now. Though they have been making changes to closer range higher damage variants of missiles the lack of utility due to shield tanking prevents you from being able to close and tackle your target to prevent them from leaving your range)

3) No utility (The use of mid slots of tank and the fact that most time a shield tank stands alone with no support means that Caldari ships have to choose to live or to have utility. Not both! This restriction on mid slots


You say you don't want a solo pwnboat, but that is what you have described. From the above quotes, you seem to want ships that can speed tank, damage, and tackle. This is a definition of a solo pwnboat, like the vaga.

Caldari are not solo ships. Use then in gangs.

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:17:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou
Originally by: Zanquis

Of all the races Caldari is least flexible in terms of options. I support this by pointing out...
1) No choice of tank type (Armor tanking ships can choose between armor tank or speed tank since speed tanking also is low slot heavy)


Just they have more low slots does not mean they are qualified to speedtank. I have yet to see a nano-abbadon used seriously, despite its uber amount of low slots.
Caldari can zoom too; case in point: nanocerb.

Originally by: Zanquis

2) No choice of combat style. (Sniper or nothing right now. Though they have been making changes to closer range higher damage variants of missiles the lack of utility due to shield tanking prevents you from being able to close and tackle your target to prevent them from leaving your range)

3) No utility (The use of mid slots of tank and the fact that most time a shield tank stands alone with no support means that Caldari ships have to choose to live or to have utility. Not both! This restriction on mid slots


You say you don't want a solo pwnboat, but that is what you have described. From the above quotes, you seem to want ships that can speed tank, damage, and tackle. This is a definition of a solo pwnboat, like the vaga.

Caldari are not solo ships. Use then in gangs.


Athanasios Anastasiou I really do not know why I am bothering to argue with you since you always seem to cherry pick what you want to hear.

What I described is the situation, what you derived from what I described to what I suggested or argued was totally different. I pointed out some weaknesses, and I never asked for all of them to be removed. Every race needs its own set of strengths, weakness, and flexibility.

You can go ahead and quote and tell me when I asked for speed tanking high dps boats which can tank and tackle. You pretty much have assumed since I have pointed out these as weaknesses to Caldari that I wanted them eliminated.

I asked for more utility, options, and improved shield tank support.

I also pointed out that due to the nature of PvP overall in eve that our Racial strengths and weakness might need to be adjusted to accommodate the way this game is played. It is stupid to have boats dependant on range to be among the slowest and least agile in the game. Does that mean they should be spead tanks and gain a damage bonus? Hell no. That just means that they might need to look into making changes to either make ranged combat likely to occur, or change the racial attributes of Caldari to suite common place PvP in eve in a more realistic manner.

Heck I am all for increasing the average range of which combat takes place in common PvP. That would not only give Caldari's niche more substance, but it would also give people more reason to actually equip Railguns, Beam Lasers, and Artillery in a game where it seems common place is close range high damage weaponry which seems to have little drawback in anything other then large fleet battles, which are an entirely diffrent beast.

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.02.06 23:56:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Edited by: Ulstan on 05/02/2008 22:27:51
I don't see any easy way to make caldari better at solo pvp except by removing/changing all their racial specialties.

Shield tanking is bad for solo pvp. Trying to use long range doesn't work in solo pvp. Being slow is bad in solo pvp. Having no drones is bad in solo PvP. Etc.

However, caldari do make decent gang members, if for ECM, if nothing else.

The change to torpedos helped make the raven a viable small gang/pvp battleship, which is nice. If only the caldari missile boats had the grid to fit hams, you'd see more of them too, I imagine.

I feel like caldari are supposed to be the high tech specialists, so I'm ok with them not being good jack of all trades PvP'ers.

I think missiles need some work to not be quite so useless against people moving fast (tech II missiles mostly), that would help greatly with the 'missiles no good in fleets' complaints, I imagine.


just set EW as highslots same with web and disruptors, and there. all balanced

Magazaki
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:16:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Magazaki on 07/02/2008 00:16:31
I don't think you're quite correct in what you are describing. Let me argue...
Originally by: Zanquis
Of all the races Caldari is least flexible in terms of options. I support this by pointing out...
1) No choice of tank type (Armor tanking ships can choose between armor tank or speed tank since speed tanking also is low slot heavy)
This is not really correct. First, caldari CAN get good speeds since the introduction to rigs, and they can get them even while fielding a modicum of tank. Their damage and fitting options take a dip, though, the same as normally armortanking speedboats damage takes a dip and tank disappears. The only thing actually preventing them from insane speeds is their mass. In my opinion yes Caldari should be lighter, in line with the rest of the world.
Last but not least, they have the option to EW-tank with their mids instead of shield tanking, somithing that armortankers simply cannot do.
Originally by: Zanquis
2) No choice of combat style. (Sniper or nothing right now. Though they have been making changes to closer range higher damage variants of missiles the lack of utility due to shield tanking prevents you from being able to close and tackle your target to prevent them from leaving your range)
This is also not very correct. Most Caldari gunboats are actually decent with blasters, and the missileships are not snipers, they are either close or medium range platforms. The fact that they cannot tackle very well is another matter entirely from the quote "they are snipers or nothing".
Originally by: Zanquis
3) No utility (The use of mid slots of tank and the fact that most time a shield tank stands alone with no support means that Caldari ships have to choose to live or to have utility. Not both! This restriction on mid slots harms Caldari's flexibility the most)
I didn't understand this very well. If you mean what I think you do, then the fact that many (not all!!!) gangs prefer armor tanking support is something that should be complained at at the particular gang, not the forums! Or, just armortank them battleships and get it over with. Utility for you in abundance then...

Luna Nilaya
Blood Works Inc.
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.02.07 09:27:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Buyerr

just set EW as highslots same with web and disruptors, and there. all balanced


There's one other option too.
Caldari ships often have too many low slots.
Caldari ships are supposed to be the Amarr of shield tankers which means a lot of medium slots and very little low slots.
Yet we have 5 low slots in Raven for example. I would gladly trade 2 of those slots for 2 more meds.
That way Raven could tackle and have a good tank.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.02.07 12:08:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Zanquis

Athanasios Anastasiou I really do not know why I am bothering to argue with you since you always seem to cherry pick what you want to hear.

What I described is the situation, what you derived from what I described to what I suggested or argued was totally different. I pointed out some weaknesses, and I never asked for all of them to be removed. Every race needs its own set of strengths, weakness, and flexibility.

You can go ahead and quote and tell me when I asked for speed tanking high dps boats which can tank and tackle. You pretty much have assumed since I have pointed out these as weaknesses to Caldari that I wanted them eliminated.

I asked for more utility, options, and improved shield tank support.

I also pointed out that due to the nature of PvP overall in eve that our Racial strengths and weakness might need to be adjusted to accommodate the way this game is played. It is stupid to have boats dependant on range to be among the slowest and least agile in the game. Does that mean they should be spead tanks and gain a damage bonus? Hell no. That just means that they might need to look into making changes to either make ranged combat likely to occur, or change the racial attributes of Caldari to suite common place PvP in eve in a more realistic manner.

Heck I am all for increasing the average range of which combat takes place in common PvP. That would not only give Caldari's niche more substance, but it would also give people more reason to actually equip Railguns, Beam Lasers, and Artillery in a game where it seems common place is close range high damage weaponry which seems to have little drawback in anything other then large fleet battles, which are an entirely diffrent beast.


If you are speaking honestly, you really need to work on your presentation.

You point all the Caldari weakness and ask for them to be removed. That is asking for solopowmobiles.

Quote:
I asked for more utility, options, and improved shield tank support.


Maybe you mean to ask that for different ships, but as you are speaking of the whole line of Caldari ship, not specific ships, you essentially are asking for a general buff of the race and removal of all the drawbacks. A bit greedy.

About one of your request: more speed and agility as it is "logic" that a long range fighter should have an advantage there to keep the range.

In reality it is not logic. Both in games and in RL the combat plataforms with the longest firing range are generally the slowest and more cumbersome.

Speakin on a game logic making the longest ranged weapon plataforms some of the fastest and more agile ships as you seem to ask is totally broken.

It would mean that normally they would keep the range advantage forever with no option for a equivalent class ship to close with them.

I am not against tweaking some Caldari ship, but a blank check for general increase in agility and speed is out of the way.


Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:01:00 - [38]
 

Ok I am looking back and still can't find the place where I asked all the weakness to be removed from Caldari...

I pointed out all their weakness
I also pointed out all their strenghts

Thats called analyzing something, you need the whole picture before discussion.

You seem to have only read part of my post, mainly the parts you don't like.

The initial post series explained in detail both strength and weakness, and it never asked for all the weakness to be removed.

Pointing out weakness is not the same as asking them to remove it.

Therefore I can't see how I am asking for a pwnboat. I bet you I can sit here and try to create the most perfect way to write it and people will still choose to see in it what they want to.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:12:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 07/02/2008 19:17:58
Permit me to offer my perspective on the subject, as a 3 year old Caldari pilot and PvPer.

I think Caldari PvP ships are actually in pretty good shape. Much like all the other races out there, there's a selection of ships that are worth flying above all the rest, because of what they are.

Ok, there's a few lemons too, but again, this is the same as every race.

The real problem with Caldari, as respects PvP, is one of attitude and practice - an average Caldari pilot has less options for 'going and learning' than Gallente or Minmatar.

There's remarkably few Caldari ships that can compete with Gallente or Minmatar for the solo PvP ship.

Valid tradeoff you might say, and you'd be entirely correct.

But here's where the attitude comes in - someone who starts the game, going 'I want to PvP' quite rightly goes and trains something other than Caldari.

You'll get a far better pvp learning experience out of a Thorax or rupture than you will out of a Caracal or Moa.

So gaining the valuable skills, appreciations and reflexes is a bit more of a struggle.

I can think of a whole lot of gang situations, where Caldari ships are just plain the best at their job.

The price they pay though, is not being able to be an 'all rounder' to the same extent, that you could fit a 'rax with a MWD, web, point, some gank, and a plate.

Shield tanks, active and passive are right at the top of the toughest tank list.

Missiles do multicoloured damage, and they're an 'any range' weapon - if you compare them to short range, yes, they do less damage, but your mid range missiles _also_ work at long range, or short range.

ECM ships... well yeah. Don't think anyone would argue that these are brilliant.

And all the ships get plenty of mids, which are what helps a gang in PvP.

Caldari ships have weaknesses, sure. But at the end of the day, they can spec up and do quite impressively on tanking, damage and range ... all at once, provided you've a gang to go along with.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.02.07 19:19:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Shamsah Malik
Originally by: Minsuki
Caldari are overall the most agile in the game, but slowest, AFAIK.


While I haven't gone through all the agility modifiers of caldari vs other races. Even if Caldari agility modifiers were better, it doesn't make caldari the most agile. The mass of the ships are so high, that they are still the slowest and least agile ships in the game. Except for the Crow.


Actually, that's not the case any more. Agility boost in Trinity has meant that Caldari ships, even with their high mass, actually _are_ some of the most agile in EVE. (before using agility mods, which due to lower lowslots, evens out a bit).

Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
Posted - 2008.02.08 02:38:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 08/02/2008 02:38:37
Quote:
what do you want ? a caldari vagabond ?
whats your point in changing caldari to speed tankers?


Caldari ships are currently the most agile on paper, but also the heaviest. This means they turn well, but that microwarpdrives have less effect upon them and as such speedtanking would still be unrealistic with Caldari ships - however they could be competitive. Taking the Cerberus as an example, fit purely for speed:

3x Overdrive Injector
1x Nanofiber Internal Structure
1x 10MN Microwarpdrive
1x Photon Scattering Field
1x Invulnerability Field
1x Warp Disruptor
5x heavy Missile Launcher
1x Small Energy Neutralizer
2x Polycarbon

The MWD will cap you out pretty quickly, and I put the neut in for the sake of it - that's pretty much a dead slot right there. Most setups would also have a Damage Control and at least one if not two or three Ballistic Control Systems - but this currently gives a top attainable speed of 3271m/s. Obviously the orbit velocity will be far lower - I would guess around 2400-2600m/s - but it's also an unrealistic setup.

Given the 5% speed boost proposed, this speed goes up to 3435m/s - still considerably slower than the Ishtar, and slower than even a poorly skilled Vagabond pilot by almost 2000m/s.

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2008.02.08 10:21:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 08/02/2008 10:23:10
I've always thought of Caldari as one of the most flexible races - case in point is the battleship level. You've now got an honest to goodness EW beast in the Scorpion (I love that ship); a gank, missile spewing monstrosity with good range in the Raven; and finally an impressive sniper with great tank and some blaster-level abilities within gangs.

Compare that to Amarr who have a gunboat, a gunboat and, well, a gunboat and them come back to me about a lack of flexibility for Caldari ships.

Lothros Andastar
Gallente
Posted - 2008.02.08 11:54:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Jasai Kameron

Compare that to Amarr who have a gunboat, a gunboat and, well, a gunboat and them come back to me about a lack of flexibility for Caldari ships.

Yes but you get Different looking phallic gunboats :p

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.02.08 18:50:00 - [44]
 

Quote:
Compare that to Amarr who have a gunboat, a gunboat and, well, a gunboat and them come back to me about a lack of flexibility for Caldari ships.



Ah, but after the Amarr changes, it looks like they'll have a superb (possibly the best) sniper.

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2008.02.08 23:25:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Ah, but after the Amarr changes, it looks like they'll have a superb (possibly the best) sniper.

I won't argue with that. Amarr are going to be freaking awesome after the changes. However, a sniper, no matter how superb, is still a gunboat. It doesn't give Amarr any more options - many Amarr bs were already used as snipers - it merely means they are now going to be a fair bit better at what they were doing anyway.

I guess it depends on what you mean by flexibility, but it just seems to me that Caldari are the only race with three properly fleshed out ship roles - EW, gun sniper, missiles - which, to me, does give you a nice, varied lineup.

At the same time, however, I fully support a 5% speed increase, or whatever speed/mass increase is needed to even things out a bit.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2008.02.09 12:43:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 09/02/2008 12:44:57
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
2) Caldari ships are way too slow. The entire race is designed around having a range advantage, but they have no real way to keep it.


I so agree there. I don't think people piloting ships of other races even realize how slow caldari boats are. This is a very big problem. It also affects on some ships you really want to use at closer range. Like Flu-catcher.

However. I'm going to disagree about opinion that caldari ships should be only for gang/fleet pvp. Once in a while everyone wants to fly a bit solo pvp. It also makes no sense realistically that one nation in game doesn't have any good tacklers/solo ships in their fleet selection which can take on 1 on 1 against same class ship, above frigate class. I am personally in fond of idea having separate ewar module slots for all ships, or creating new modules using high/low slots for tackling/ewar.

edit: Also there is a fact that shield tanking kind of "sucks" compared to armor tanking in almost every possible way, unless you're npcing.









Buyerr
Posted - 2008.02.09 19:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Luna Nilaya
Originally by: Buyerr

just set EW as highslots same with web and disruptors, and there. all balanced


There's one other option too.
Caldari ships often have too many low slots.
Caldari ships are supposed to be the Amarr of shield tankers which means a lot of medium slots and very little low slots.
Yet we have 5 low slots in Raven for example. I would gladly trade 2 of those slots for 2 more meds.
That way Raven could tackle and have a good tank.


would overpower the tanking ability when you didn't use those 2 slots for tackling but for tanking...

Zara Skyray
Caldari
Carthage Industries
Posted - 2008.02.11 15:18:00 - [48]
 

There seems to be some cross-communication in this thread which could use some clearing up:

The OP makes some points (which I agree with by-and-large as a pure-Caldari pilot) about Caldari ships being weak in pvp in general. Many of the responders have noted their objections by pointing to certain Caldari ships which are, in fact, good - like the cerberus and falcon/rook.

I think the point is that while there are some great Caldari ships (ECM boats, Cerberus, Harpy, Crow, Manticore), the majority of the race's ships have some distinct disadvantages which make them a far weaker pvp race.

Whatever you think the OP wants Caldari to end up being, I think is IS safe to say that there is room to improve the Caldari lineup (particularly the T1 Frigates, Cruisers and BCs) without making them utterly unstoppable. The fact is that, in the build currently on the live servers, Caldari have few if any ships that are decent at Solo PvP (a weakness that none of the other races have) and that, due to the Caldari's dependence on shield tanking, practically none of them can hope to tackle without seriously impairing their primary roles - whether it be dps, tank or ECM. No other race MUST depend on other races' ships in order to field a good small gang. This is problematic.

Can Caldari pilots cross-train to other races ships to gain access to the things they lack? Sure. But this underscores the inherent problem - the best advice we can give Caldari pilots who want to balance out their PvP game to include ships which aren't sniping and/or ECM ships is to not fly Caldari. I feel fairly confident that our Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar brethren would not be satisfied if our best advice to them was to fly Caldari. Neither should we be forced into an arduous cross train just to compete.

Caldari need some PvP love. This may take the form of lowering the mass of Caldari ships, giving us high or low slot modules which give us tackling ability (though still at the cost of our overall dps), fixing our weak non-missile ships or something completely novel. But it does need to happen - just as surely as Amarr need the boost that's coming down the pipe right now.

Should every race be interchangable? No. But each race should have ships which can fill the major niches of the game to some degree - PvE, Solo PvP, Gang PvP and Fleet PvP. Right now, as has been noted, pilots must choose 2 of 3: Caldari, PvP, Solo. This is a dilemma which should be corrected, and in a way that doesn't make Caldari the ultimate PvP race.


Neuromandis
Posted - 2008.02.11 23:54:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Neuromandis on 11/02/2008 23:55:36
Mass reduction is the only thing at least 90% of Caldari ships *need* at the moment to be near-perfectly balanced with the other races in my opinion.
Anything else might be pampering IMO.

Nuandha
Caldari
Legio XI
Avaricious Cartel
Posted - 2008.02.12 16:25:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Minsuki
... But there are three things I want for a late christmas:
1. High-slot scrambler than can be fitted on any ship. Trading DPS for tackle wouldn't be so terrible, would it? Or perhaps a warp scrambling drone.
2. HAMs adjusted to be more in line with rockets and torpedos, either fitting and/or damage.
3. EWAR as an option on unbonused ships, not useless or an I-WIN button. If I'm willing to dedicate 2-3 mids and 1-2 lows on a cruiser to some form of EWAR, can I please get some advantage out of it?



I think I would be perfectly happy with number 1 high slot scrambler would solv all major caldari pvp problems without nerfing other races! Very Happy

Zanquis
Caldari
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.02.15 17:56:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Zara Skyray
There seems to be some cross-communication in this thread which could use some clearing up:

The OP makes some points (which I agree with by-and-large as a pure-Caldari pilot) about Caldari ships being weak in pvp in general. Many of the responders have noted their objections by pointing to certain Caldari ships which are, in fact, good - like the cerberus and falcon/rook.

I think the point is that while there are some great Caldari ships (ECM boats, Cerberus, Harpy, Crow, Manticore), the majority of the race's ships have some distinct disadvantages which make them a far weaker pvp race.

Whatever you think the OP wants Caldari to end up being, I think is IS safe to say that there is room to improve the Caldari lineup (particularly the T1 Frigates, Cruisers and BCs) without making them utterly unstoppable. The fact is that, in the build currently on the live servers, Caldari have few if any ships that are decent at Solo PvP (a weakness that none of the other races have) and that, due to the Caldari's dependence on shield tanking, practically none of them can hope to tackle without seriously impairing their primary roles - whether it be dps, tank or ECM. No other race MUST depend on other races' ships in order to field a good small gang. This is problematic.

Can Caldari pilots cross-train to other races ships to gain access to the things they lack? Sure. But this underscores the inherent problem - the best advice we can give Caldari pilots who want to balance out their PvP game to include ships which aren't sniping and/or ECM ships is to not fly Caldari. I feel fairly confident that our Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar brethren would not be satisfied if our best advice to them was to fly Caldari. Neither should we be forced into an arduous cross train just to compete.

Caldari need some PvP love. This may take the form of lowering the mass of Caldari ships, giving us high or low slot modules which give us tackling ability (though still at the cost of our overall dps), fixing our weak non-missile ships or something completely novel. But it does need to happen - just as surely as Amarr need the boost that's coming down the pipe right now.

Should every race be interchangable? No. But each race should have ships which can fill the major niches of the game to some degree - PvE, Solo PvP, Gang PvP and Fleet PvP. Right now, as has been noted, pilots must choose 2 of 3: Caldari, PvP, Solo. This is a dilemma which should be corrected, and in a way that doesn't make Caldari the ultimate PvP race.




Well written! Finally somebody got it.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.15 19:17:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin


2) Caldari ships are way too slow. The entire race is designed around having a range advantage, but they have no real way to keep it.



Ill ignore point 1 because you know just how dumb it is. But for point two...

Caldari ships are not way to slow. If the race with the longest range can also keep that range, no one else can compete in pretty much any type of pvp.

Chencherra
Gallente
Serious Business Incorporated
Posted - 2008.02.16 11:44:00 - [53]
 

I just thought about : "Why not having one PvE race that has some advantages in PvP and have 3 full PvP races that kinda suck at PvE"

If CCP boosts Caldari PvP they should also nerf their PvE advantages. Just to get in line with the other races.

...just my last 2 cents.

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.02.16 15:52:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Neuromandis
Edited by: Neuromandis on 11/02/2008 23:55:36
Mass reduction is the only thing at least 90% of Caldari ships *need* at the moment to be near-perfectly balanced with the other races in my opinion.
Anything else might be pampering IMO.

Caldari is fine with their mass. In fact shouldn't it be increased? Ships should compromise on choose to move fast or hit, and the missile boats can do both at the same time.

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.02.16 16:00:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Chencherra

If CCP boosts Caldari PvP they should also nerf their PvE advantages. Just to get in line with the other races.


Directly they got a torp buff, an agility increase and an ecm buff.

Indirectly they got buffs by not being affected by the general wave of nerfs. Such as not caring about range (heat web nerf), damps, drones, etc.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2008.02.16 16:06:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Neuromandis on 16/02/2008 16:06:54
Originally by: Chencherra
If CCP boosts Caldari PvP they should also nerf their PvE advantages. Just to get in line with the other races.

...just my last 2 cents.
Check the new range of torps on the Raven. Also, Caldari have a MISSIONING advantage, not a pve advantage as a whole.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.16 16:40:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Zara Skyray

The OP makes some points (which I agree with by-and-large as a pure-Caldari pilot) about Caldari ships being weak in pvp in general. Many of the responders have noted their objections by pointing to certain Caldari ships which are, in fact, good - like the cerberus and falcon/rook.

I think the point is that while there are some great Caldari ships (ECM boats, Cerberus, Harpy, Crow, Manticore), the majority of the race's ships have some distinct disadvantages which make them a far weaker pvp race.



See, there is the problem. Lets list the Caldari ships which are either the best at what they do or provide a better option for a specialized character.

Blackbird
Caracal
Moa
Ferox
Drake
Eagle
Cerberus
Scorpion
Raven
Rokh
Falcon
Rook
Nighthawk
Vulture
Crow


Caldari have bad frigates, but they have fantastic ships in all other classes to do everything but solo-pvp, and even then they have passable ships[drake and raven, now the Moa]

Ghostwarden
Posted - 2008.02.16 20:53:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Merin Ryskin


2) Caldari ships are way too slow. The entire race is designed around having a range advantage, but they have no real way to keep it.



Ill ignore point 1 because you know just how dumb it is. But for point two...

Caldari ships are not way to slow. If the race with the longest range can also keep that range, no one else can compete in pretty much any type of pvp.


Ok, no offense but I find you argument to be a load of ****.
From my experience with PVP (and in specific solo PVP) you need to be within 20-30k of your target so that you can keep him from running. Giving the Caldari ships the ability to keep the range open to take advantage of range also means that the other player has the option of running away and thus no kill. Opening the range in solo PVP just means that the other man can get away easier.

Ghost

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.02.16 22:44:00 - [59]
 

Yea, the Vagabond, Sacrilege, Ishtar, and all the other nano hacs just suck.

The difference is that these HAC have weaknesses[range on the HAM SAC, damage on the HML, transversal required to be lowered on the vagabond, shooting the ishtars drones].

Can you imagine a cerb like that? Or a drake that didnt have to worry about ships getting close? Or a raven that couldnt be caught at all by a Mega or anything else? It would be ridiculous.

Neuromandis
Posted - 2008.02.17 01:39:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Neuromandis on 17/02/2008 01:40:28
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Caldari is fine with their mass.
Fine with their mass? How so? Have you ever tried to get any kind of meaningful speed out of them? And I'm not talking of outrunning a similar fit here, I'm talking of nanofit cruiser unable to catch battleships here...
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
In fact shouldn't it be increased?
Is this trolling? Increased? Even more? Have you even bothered to check how much it already is? Or are you bothered by the zounds of nanoravens that people dream about but never see?
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Ships should compromise on choose to move fast or hit, and the missile boats can do both at the same time.
First, Caldari cannot compromise to choose to move fast or hit. They cannot move fast period. Not in any meaningful sense anyway.
Second, Caldari-Do-Not-Only-Have-Missile-Ships. Simple as that. Caldari !=missiles just like Gallente!=drones. They have hybridboats, you see.

Finally, I am talking of slight reduction, not any nanonightmare here. (in the order of 5% to 10%). As a comparison, the current state is (using hacs as a comparison table):
Vagabond: 10000000 (makes sense)
Munin: 11500000 (range bonus, but makes sense as well)
Sacrilege: 12000000 (A missile boat!!! Why less than the eagle, a gunboat?)
Zealot: 11950000 (Range bonus. Sounds nice, unless you put it next to the Eagle again)
Deimos: 11000000 (Reasonable)
Ishtar: 11250000 (Droneboat. Tracking and range-independant. No comments.)
Cerberus: 13750000 (Missile boat as well... Go figure)
Eagle: 13000000 (Go figure ^2)

So, let's see... Who needs their mass increased? The nano-Sacrilege you said? Or was it the Ishtar? That can shoot its (costly, but no more than the ship!!) drones with no regards to tracking whatsoever?
The Sacrilege, in fact, is a missile ship so it never needs to reduce speed to hit. But, wait, the Eagle has about 8% more mass than it. And the cerb... forget it better, it has 15%!! more mass than SLOWEST MISSILE ship, and 37.5% more mass (lol) than the fastest, the vagabond. By comparison, the Sac is "just" 20% heavier than the vaga...

So? No, none of these ships need their mass increased. Just the Cerb needs it de-creased (take it to 13.000.000, so it's still the slowest BY FAR), and the eagle needs to go to 12.000 (same as the Sacrilege, which is a missileship, and slower than anybody else). See? Not asking for anything loltastic here. Rest of the classes can use the exact same kind of tweaking.

Bored to do that? Shave 5% mass off each and every Caldari ship bar the Crow, and you still won't break anything at all.


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