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shinsushi
Posted - 2008.02.08 11:44:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

Mega (60k Effective Hp)

7 x 425 II/ Spike L
100mn MWD, 2 x Sensor booster, Cap recharger
1 x 1600 Plate, 1 x DC II, 3 x Magnetic Field Stabaliser, 2 x Cap power relay II

Runs Forever and needs no fitting mods. Drop mfs or plate for tracking enhancer for range if needed.


Originally by: Jonny JoJo

Sorry - 80km Optimal is stupid when you are sniping people 160km away. You do 0 DPS. Please try again with your 8 tach setup. Try using tach next time you try to do a 8 tach setup challange, it helps. And your setup has terrible tracking - worst tracking even after those tracking mods of all non-amarr close range battleships..


Quote:
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

Currently, on new apoc its

8 tach II with/aurora
100mn MWD, 2 x Sensor booster II, 1 x Cap Recharger II
3 x Heatsink II, 2 x RCU II, 1 x CPU II, 1 DC II, 1 x Cap relay II

And even then and lasts for 7 mins, 22 seconds. I wish that I still did not waste on 3 fitting mods :(. All the new apoc means is that I can use 3 x Heatsinks mods insted of 3 x Tracking mods.

EDIT - Lol and I used Navy Apoc. Imagine standard apoc being wore off grid wise/slot wise



You dont need 3 fitting mods, are you ******ed?

P.S.

[Apocalypse, New Setup 1]
Reactor Control Unit II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Fires forever, does as much DPS as your Megathron, with better tracking, with the same EHP. But it hits 165km optimal while your ******ed fit only hits 130


Hmmm.... so the Apoc looses 1 damage mod AND a DC in order to fit its guns(2x RCUII), what consolidation does the Mega make to fit its highest damage, longest range guns?

HEINZ ZERO
DRUCKWELLE Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.02.08 11:52:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Movit
DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN IDEA WHEN THEY MOVE THE SHANGES TO the main server?

I am dreaming of them.

Regarding the fitting of the Zealot.
1. It fits well with the 5th turet. Easily. (Tip. Don't forget about Rigs)
2. Regarding Cap usage of Zealot. All you need the MWD for is to aproach the sucker. Thats all. Turn it off afterwards and you will have the cap. (Tip. Cap BOoster)


And Finaly. Please tell me when they will make these a reality on the main server?


The bigger Problem is the omen atm. I tried some T1 fittings (T1 FMP fittings for newer players)
..even with AWU 5, fitting this ship is nearly impossible.

Only some AB fittings work. Fittings with MWD are not possible.

The omen really needs more CPU + PG... this ship is impossible to fit for newer Players ..and donīt even think about T2 gun fittingsugh

Firmus Terra
Posted - 2008.02.08 12:17:00 - [363]
 

Edited by: Firmus Terra on 08/02/2008 12:38:56
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Start flying geddon maybe you will understand what i meant. Atm fight with blaster mega/blaster hype is 50/50 game. After changes it wont be sure victory but it will help quite a bit in this combat. Also it will help a LOT vs minnie armor tanks.



You seriously think a 'Geddon has a 50% chance vs. a Megathron? I don't see how that's remotely possible, since they're both quite similar in style aside from the mega being slightly better in almost every aspect, but OK.
I specialize in T2 cruisers personally so I wouldn't know. But then again I don't think anyone would because where are you going to get two people who are identically skilled in each respective ship with equal fittings to 1v1 each other?

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Oh and 20% damage increase on EM = 10% total damage increase (using multi ammo with 50/50 EM/thermal split). I always like 10% more damage.


Have you stopped to think that maybe 10% isn't all that much when it's boosting our damage per hit from something like 30 to 33 on T2 omni tanks? EM is still the single weakest damage type vs. armor, and armor is still the prevailing method of tanking in PvP. That hasn't and is not going to change. Recalculating it as a percentile just makes it seem big, it doesn't mean you're going to break tanks much easier in practice.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
As for capacitor problems - as soon as you drop them down blaster users will also cry for cap reduction. Except for some ships (zealot/absolution/abaddon) i can live with cap being sucked by guns. Oh yea - and zealot will have serious cap issues now :) Read: 25% more cap use ;p


Why would blaster users cry for a cap reduction when even if lasers cap use were to be cut by 50% innately, blasters would still use less cap than lasers by ~10%, do much greater DPS, have better tracking and better damage types? ugh
All I'm proposing is we get our second ship bonus to make up for all the downsides to lasers.


Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.02.08 13:26:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Firmus Terra
Edited by: Firmus Terra on 08/02/2008 12:38:56
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Start flying geddon maybe you will understand what i meant. Atm fight with blaster mega/blaster hype is 50/50 game. After changes it wont be sure victory but it will help quite a bit in this combat. Also it will help a LOT vs minnie armor tanks.



You seriously think a 'Geddon has a 50% chance vs. a Megathron? I don't see how that's remotely possible, since they're both quite similar in style aside from the mega being slightly better in almost every aspect, but OK.
I specialize in T2 cruisers personally so I wouldn't know. But then again I don't think anyone would because where are you going to get two people who are identically skilled in each respective ship with equal fittings to 1v1 each other?



Then dont "assume" things. And dont guess. If you dont use lasers (especially t2 ones) then why are you taking part in discussion abt lasers in first place?

Yes my geddon has around 50/50 chance VS mega (combat starts at 15-20k range) mostly dependant on mega bumping me (im dead) or mega missing me (i win).

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Oh and 20% damage increase on EM = 10% total damage increase (using multi ammo with 50/50 EM/thermal split). I always like 10% more damage.


Have you stopped to think that maybe 10% isn't all that much when it's boosting our damage per hit from something like 30 to 33 on T2 omni tanks? EM is still the single weakest damage type vs. armor, and armor is still the prevailing method of tanking in PvP. That hasn't and is not going to change. Recalculating it as a percentile just makes it seem big, it doesn't mean you're going to break tanks much easier in practice.



If i do 33 not 30 damage then im doing 10% more. This means i DO break enemy tank faster.
Unless your logic says "more damage = enemy tanks better". And btw - usual hits are quite larger than "30" damage.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
As for capacitor problems - as soon as you drop them down blaster users will also cry for cap reduction. Except for some ships (zealot/absolution/abaddon) i can live with cap being sucked by guns. Oh yea - and zealot will have serious cap issues now :) Read: 25% more cap use ;p


Why would blaster users cry for a cap reduction when even if lasers cap use were to be cut by 50% innately, blasters would still use less cap than lasers by ~10%, do much greater DPS, have better tracking and better damage types? ugh

All I'm proposing is we get our second ship bonus to make up for all the downsides to lasers.



You mean downsides being better range?
Actually blasters vs lasers are pretty ok balanced. Thing that breaks everything are autocannons with pretty good range (especially when most minnie ships still get faloff bonus), no cap use, good tracking.

For RR BS gangs imo blasters are worst choice mostly because to crap range.

Anyways: i know everyone would like ot get +50% damage on lasers and prolly no cap use. But not gonna happen. Post fix lasers will get enough boost to be back in line, zealot gets scary (imo 5th turret OR em resist reduction would suffice).

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.02.08 15:04:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Firmus Terra
Edited by: Firmus Terra on 08/02/2008 12:38:56
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Start flying geddon maybe you will understand what i meant. Atm fight with blaster mega/blaster hype is 50/50 game. After changes it wont be sure victory but it will help quite a bit in this combat. Also it will help a LOT vs minnie armor tanks.



You seriously think a 'Geddon has a 50% chance vs. a Megathron? I don't see how that's remotely possible, since they're both quite similar in style aside from the mega being slightly better in almost every aspect, but OK.
I specialize in T2 cruisers personally so I wouldn't know. But then again I don't think anyone would because where are you going to get two people who are identically skilled in each respective ship with equal fittings to 1v1 each other?



Then dont "assume" things. And dont guess. If you dont use lasers (especially t2 ones) then why are you taking part in discussion abt lasers in first place?

Yes my geddon has around 50/50 chance VS mega (combat starts at 15-20k range) mostly dependant on mega bumping me (im dead) or mega missing me (i win).

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Oh and 20% damage increase on EM = 10% total damage increase (using multi ammo with 50/50 EM/thermal split). I always like 10% more damage.


Have you stopped to think that maybe 10% isn't all that much when it's boosting our damage per hit from something like 30 to 33 on T2 omni tanks? EM is still the single weakest damage type vs. armor, and armor is still the prevailing method of tanking in PvP. That hasn't and is not going to change. Recalculating it as a percentile just makes it seem big, it doesn't mean you're going to break tanks much easier in practice.



If i do 33 not 30 damage then im doing 10% more. This means i DO break enemy tank faster.
Unless your logic says "more damage = enemy tanks better". And btw - usual hits are quite larger than "30" damage.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
As for capacitor problems - as soon as you drop them down blaster users will also cry for cap reduction. Except for some ships (zealot/absolution/abaddon) i can live with cap being sucked by guns. Oh yea - and zealot will have serious cap issues now :) Read: 25% more cap use ;p


Why would blaster users cry for a cap reduction when even if lasers cap use were to be cut by 50% innately, blasters would still use less cap than lasers by ~10%, do much greater DPS, have better tracking and better damage types? ugh

All I'm proposing is we get our second ship bonus to make up for all the downsides to lasers.



You mean downsides being better range?
Actually blasters vs lasers are pretty ok balanced. Thing that breaks everything are autocannons with pretty good range (especially when most minnie ships still get faloff bonus), no cap use, good tracking.

For RR BS gangs imo blasters are worst choice mostly because to crap range.

Anyways: i know everyone would like ot get +50% damage on lasers and prolly no cap use. But not gonna happen. Post fix lasers will get enough boost to be back in line, zealot gets scary (imo 5th turret OR em resist reduction would suffice).




Don tell me you don consider scorch to be a range advantage. 45 km range is far better than what AC with barrage get. So Amarr do have range advantage when they want to.

On Mega vs Geddon. depends a lot on type of tanks/ drones etc a EANM+ DC + Explosive hardener against a geddon with Ogres II is a good bet for the Geddon. Same tank but besearkers and all goes better to mega. Change tank to 2 EANM and DC and the drone selection inverts and the lasers deal far less damage etc...

Also if both are plated and with MWD ( then geddon need to drop web to fit boosters). The geddon might kite him long enough to take most proffit from the scorch. But then the lack of web makes harder to finish the fight.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.02.08 15:41:00 - [366]
 

Quote:
Don tell me you don consider scorch to be a range advantage. 45 km range is far better than what AC with barrage get. So Amarr do have range advantage when they want to.


You have range advantage which you barely use. Most combats either happen at 150+km or 0-20km where multi is enough. I can count on fingers of my one hand situations when i absolutely NEEDED scorch to hit something (instead of chosing other closer target).

If enemy needs to fight at under 20km it means he will close the gap to you - so you both fight at that distance.

Quote:
On Mega vs Geddon. depends a lot on type of tanks/ drones etc a EANM+ DC + Explosive hardener against a geddon with Ogres II is a good bet for the Geddon. Same tank but besearkers and all goes better to mega. Change tank to 2 EANM and DC and the drone selection inverts and the lasers deal far less damage etc...


Yes yes, depends depends... blah blah. And most ppl fly "standarised" setups anyways. Either dualrep electrons or plated neutrons. You eat dualreps w/o any problem, with neutrons its classic 50/50. And yes i was including 2x eanm + DC fit on mega, not funny hardener setup (which gives like 5% more resists on 3 damages but lacks EM hardening + needs more slots to fit DC).

Quote:
Also if both are plated and with MWD ( then geddon need to drop web to fit boosters). The geddon might kite him long enough to take most proffit from the scorch. But then the lack of web makes harder to finish the fight.


I hope you know that if you use scorch then you are either:
1. wasting damage you could deal with other ammo? (multi is perfect for 15-25km)
2. sitting out of scram range so he can warp?

Firmus Terra
Posted - 2008.02.09 00:23:00 - [367]
 

Edited by: Firmus Terra on 09/02/2008 02:17:05
Edit - Cut a lot of argument out of my post. I was just repeating myself and if you didn't hear me the first time...

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Then dont "assume" things. And dont guess. If you dont use lasers (especially t2 ones) then why are you taking part in discussion abt lasers in first place?



I said I specialize in T2 cruisers, as in T2 cruiser/BC sized ships like the Absolution & Zealot, and T1 ships like the Harbinger and sometimes even the Maller. I fly laser platforms exclusively. My now ex-main flew blaster boats exclusively including the Mega & Deimos. Unfortunately I never once had the opportunity to 1v1 a 'Geddon, but I doubt it would have proved anything anyway since much of the outcome is based on invested skill points.

T2 fittings are a given these days.

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

Anyways: I know everyone would like ot get +50% damage on lasers and prolly no cap use. But not gonna happen. Post fix lasers will get enough boost to be back in line, zealot gets scary (imo 5th turret OR em resist reduction would suffice).



I never asked for extra damage or less final cap use.
I'm asking for the ship bonus "10% bonus to X Energy Turret capacitor use per level" to be scrapped and given to lasers innately as a 50% capacitor use reduction. Currently, instead of being rewarded for training a ship skill to five, we are mocked with a bonus that puts us on the starting line long after the gun has fired. Every other race has somewhat cap stable weapons from the time they spawn into existence. The bonus is actually more of a nerf; a pain for newbies and pilots who don't have BS 5 yet, let alone Dread 5; and a replacement for a second bonus that could potentially add diversity.

The Amarr complaint wasn't just about the Apoc and Zealot, and two crap ships aren't the only two reasons why our race is so badly underpopulated.

Agil TradeAlt
Posted - 2008.02.11 13:33:00 - [368]
 

Going to bump this, but current Beam Fitting requirements are overboard. I hope that the reacent boost to what was one of the worst pvp ships in game (the apoc) is not seen as a fully fix for Amarr.

Apoc needs more grid and more CPU. Either that or reduce beam fittings.


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