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Bigeasy
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:11:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 14/02/2008 00:28:48



Truth be told, too much was expected of Rise on my part. Such is life in 0.0


...

Awful big talk there...

Flax Volcanus
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:39:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 03:39:57
Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 14/02/2008 00:28:48
Rise and most alliances aren't used to the hardcore life that Bobbits have. Criticisms that BOB pilots get are expected because they are expected to be the best. Smaller less organized alliances are not as adept at this life.

Truth be told, too much was expected of Rise on my part. Such is life in 0.0


What a self-righteous, ego-inflated ******* you are. No wonder more than half the game hates BloB. Guys like you screw it up for the good ones.

LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:44:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Yaay

Rise at their prime was an alliance that could field 70-100 man fleets. They showed potential, something that could be molded into a strong alliance. But they made quite a few mistakes that most alliances in game make. They weren't strict. They allowed pilots to do things out of check, they promoted for no real reason, and they had no clear voice.


Not so sure about the promotion bit, but otherwise that is truth.

Originally by: Yaay
By the time KOS spammed Rise regions, they were done. Truth of the matter was, BoB put tons of assests and tons of time into Rise held regions that was really unwarranted. KOS POS removal was not really the work of Rise, It was BOB lead and prompted a slight morale boost within Rise.


Yaay, we're on the same side, so I don't really want to start the hair pulling... RISE knew it's position. We held out against everything that was thrown at us while the allies ground their way through Querious. When we got help it was fantastic, but I don't think anything was ever sacrificed to provide that help.

BoB lead started the turn around on the KOS towers, but it was RISE sweat and effort that kept up with the spam and RISE fleets that cleared the POSs after the first two days of assault.


Originally by: Yaay
It was then that I talked to one of RISE top 3 guys, and layed out frustrations. I offered a kick in the pants sorta talk and it was more than gladly accepted. In the following weeks, this same leader was suspected of being either a turncoat or an infiltrator, and quite honestly, knowing RISE record on spies, I don't doubt it 1 bit.


lol - Me. All me. :) I do seem to have brought the grim reaper to several alliances, but not through spying (Anyone in Goon need a diplomat?) I appreciate that you didn't call me out. I wish I could have done the same, but everyone on CAOD knows who gave that speech. Let's compromise. I think going into that we both had different visions of how it would have played out. We should have talked through that rather than assuming. Things were going badly long before the speech, it was just another symptom of where we were.

Devian 666
Gallente
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2008.02.14 03:50:00 - [154]
 

x up in this thread if you think Yaay should continue providing motivational speeches.

LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2008.02.14 04:12:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
...that lokesh guy was completely in bobs pocket and i laughed everytime i read a council post of his white knighting for them



Yet I'm not in BoB, know am I? Everything you read from me in Council about our relationship with BoB was the honest truth. BoB gave us alot of respect in their dealings with us (respect that I'm not sure we deserved). I recognized that as an asset and tried not to let people jeopardize it.

I was also willing to think on the large scale - we could have done a million things to save our own butts... it would have just accelerated the assault on our allies. Many of your compatriots fault us for the 'high and mighty attitude' but that's what made us RISE. We weren't going to sell out our friends.

Flax Volcanus
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 04:16:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 18:19:57
Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 04:19:13
Originally by: Devian 666
x up in this thread if you think Yaay should continue providing motivational speeches.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


LOL -- maybe volunteering at a suicide hotline, too?

Absolute truth is that RISE had rent waived twice during the APR-OCT time that I had access to the alliance wallet. (If I still had the wallet dumps on my machine, I'd post the whole thing.) Apparently, OCT rent was supposed to be waived as well, but no one actually told us that. And, even after Dian said the OCT payment would be refunded, that still had not been done more than a month later, when I finally removed myself from RISE Holdings wallet access.

If you don't believe me, ask Mittani. He apparently had access to all my *****ing in the council forums. Confused

To Yaay's post, let me remind him that the caretaking agreement included assurances that BloB would aid us in the case of major hostile assaults. A few times, they did. But many more times, they did not. End of story.

Certainly, RISE was messed up by the end of JUL. No argument there. But BloB made several commitments to RISE -- promises of defensive assists, of titan-based logistics help -- that it did not keep. Anyone who asserts otherwise is either a liar or an amnesiac.

As Lok said, "we weren't going to sell out our friends." Too bad BloB didn't share our commitment.

[Edited several times because I can't type worth a damn.]

Bigeasy
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 04:27:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: LoKesh

BoB gave us alot of respect in their dealings with us (respect that I'm not sure we deserved). I recognized that as an asset and tried not to let people jeopardize it.




Funny Lokesh

Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 14/02/2008 00:28:48
Rise and most alliances aren't used to the hardcore life that Bobbits have. Criticisms that BOB pilots get are expected because they are expected to be the best. Smaller less organized alliances are not as adept at this life.

Truth be told, too much was expected of Rise on my part. Such is life in 0.0


I dont know how they see respect where you live, but i know in Texas ide say he just insulted an alliance that fought tooth and nail and was bled dry on their behalf.

You can kiss the fattest part of my ass yaay.

Its no wonder your fighting this war by yourselves.

Coolgamer
Minmatar
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.14 06:44:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: LoKesh
I will admit that the constant references to the ineffectual nature of the Council is, perhaps, warranted. Every leader in RISE was great - good ideas, good character, just good. But, together as a democratic Council it was apparent that there were a disagreements on the individual level about how we should function. The biggest point of disagreement was probably federal versus state power (That is -- when could the alliance tell individual corps what to do)



You sum up what was my thoughts on this too, very good guys, but an ineffective system

Geressia
Amarr
Starship Direct
Posted - 2008.02.14 07:08:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: LoKesh
we could have done a million things to save our own butts... it would have just accelerated the assault on our allies.
Since Rise gave way under the pressure, obviously it wouldn't have hurt to try shifting some of the pressure from Rise onto other pets. When you're designing a bridge, you don't make each strut bear the whole load until it gives way and passes the whole load onto the next strut, you design the bridge to spread the load so that no part of the bridge bears more than it can handle.

In letting your allies die one by one you guys really didn't do your hegemonic best.

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2008.02.14 11:44:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Yaay

Rise and most alliances aren't used to the hardcore life that Bobbits have. Criticisms that BOB pilots get are expected because they are expected to be the best. Smaller less organized alliances are not as adept at this life.



It's a game, not a way of life. RISE didn't appreciate the speech because most of us didn't like being disrespected by our allies, if what you say is true and BoB pilots are conditioned to accept that kind of behavior then I'd say it all worked out for the best for both parties.

Your post is the clearest example of what Goons claim to hate about BoB on these forums. Before I'd only seen mostly jokes about "BoB is better than you", you actually sound like you believe what you type here though.

As an individual you did more to hurt RISE than help, and somehow RISE failed you.


Flashh Gorden
Caldari
Exile Consortium
Nihilists Social Club
Posted - 2008.02.14 13:31:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:38:11
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:37:13
I worked on the Rise contract,TNT was part of the KIA aliance at that time, and we were employed by KOS.
What I cant work out is. That after KIA pulled out,Rise came under the cosh from PL/Goon recon gangs.
Why didnt Rise themselves hire some mercs to counter this small but very damaging menace in there home systems?
I think this would of raised the moral of the members and given them a much needed boost at time when they needed it most.

I would like to add that during the entire contract Rise gave us some very good fights and local chat was non existant apart from the odd GF after battle.


Karl Halyard
Caldari
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability
Posted - 2008.02.14 14:28:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Karl Halyard on 14/02/2008 14:29:41
From Despair.com

"Committees- none of us are as dumb as all of us."

I thought the downfall started when RA started camping the angel complex and running it before us after DT. The european members really were getting frustrated at not being able to make any isk and we lost a lot of good people.


Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.02.14 14:59:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:38:11
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:37:13
I worked on the Rise contract,TNT was part of the KIA aliance at that time, and we were employed by KOS.
What I cant work out is. That after KIA pulled out,Rise came under the cosh from PL/Goon recon gangs.
Why didnt Rise themselves hire some mercs to counter this small but very damaging menace in there home systems?
I think this would of raised the moral of the members and given them a much needed boost at time when they needed it most.

I would like to add that during the entire contract Rise gave us some very good fights and local chat was non existant apart from the odd GF after battle.




We were impressed with KIA.
In October Lucius Ventrue had some negotiations with KIA to come in, however by then it was really too late and you guys apparantly were finishing up a contract elsewhere.
We had suffered a lack of a strong leader for several months prior to that. Certain FC's had either disappeared, become frustrated and left the alliance, or simply didn't log in. There was a telling silence from the Council, I do not recall any concisive plans being relayed or any strong directives designed to hold the alliance together.
While we lost RIT, et al, I do believe that strong alliance leadership would have kept RISE itself from falling apart... spies, a tendency to think in ways that were pro individual rather than supportive of the alliance, and inclusion of care bear corps who cleaned up in terms of isks but offered little value in terms of military support ( and who fled with their assets upon the realization we had a big fight on our hands, dam you all for the cowards you were)


As can be seen with what is happening in NOL currently, even if RISE had been organized under strong leadership and bringing good sized fleets, it would had put off the inevitable perhaps a few weeks. By the time October came round, we had ticked off the Coalition enough by our resistence that they would simply have brought it greater numbers to take RIT regardless of what we could have mustered. We knew that and once p8 acquired the Eye of Whatsit, moral within RISE dropped through the floor.
It is my personal belief that p8 should have had RISE towers and logistics should have been adequetly funded, however in the end I don't think it would have actually mattered, except to delay the inevitable.
Flat out, I do not like Goonfleet for a variety of reasons. They are, however, a clear example of what it is possible to achieve and what can be achieved by any alliance that puts it's mind to something. The worm in the apple of course being the maintanance of the space afterwards, wether focus to hold the territory will continue, and what new powers will arise to challenge the Coalition...and what old powers will raise it's head to take back what has been lost.

Flax Volcanus
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 18:15:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 18:19:18
Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 18:16:43
Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 14/02/2008 18:15:46
Originally by: Flashh Gorden
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:38:11
Edited by: Flashh Gorden on 14/02/2008 13:37:13
I worked on the Rise contract,TNT was part of the KIA aliance at that time, and we were employed by KOS.
What I cant work out is. That after KIA pulled out,Rise came under the cosh from PL/Goon recon gangs.
Why didnt Rise themselves hire some mercs to counter this small but very damaging menace in there home systems?
I think this would of raised the moral of the members and given them a much needed boost at time when they needed it most.

I would like to add that during the entire contract Rise gave us some very good fights and local chat was non existant apart from the odd GF after battle.




Although the possibility of hiring mercs was discussed, it was never considered seriously. Even if we'd had people agree on hiring mercs, we could not have afforded payment; at least not from alliance funds. Thanks mainly to the efforts of two CEOs which killed temporary funding levies -- yes, the dreaded corp taxes -- we were running in the red by the middle of AUG. Hell, they even had me badgering Coolgamer and his crew for itemized tallies of all the Logistics expenditures.

Since no one offered merc services with interest-free payment plans, we really had no alternative. Wink

R.I.P. Rise. We had fun for a while, fought some good fights and lost others. And, we're now free to shoot the few *******s who used to be blue!

Flax Volcanus
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.14 18:29:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Talon Scorpio
...

As can be seen with what is happening in NOL currently, even if RISE had been organized under strong leadership and bringing good sized fleets, it would had put off the inevitable perhaps a few weeks. By the time October came round, we had ticked off the Coalition enough by our resistence that they would simply have brought it greater numbers to take RIT regardless of what we could have mustered. We knew that and once p8 acquired the Eye of Whatsit, moral within RISE dropped through the floor.




Eye of Whatsit?

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.02.14 18:44:00 - [166]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

Talon Scorpio
Caldari
Versatech Co.
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.02.14 19:32:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 14/02/2008 19:34:32
Originally by: Flax Volcanus
Originally by: Talon Scorpio
...

As can be seen with what is happening in NOL currently, even if RISE had been organized under strong leadership and bringing good sized fleets, it would had put off the inevitable perhaps a few weeks. By the time October came round, we had ticked off the Coalition enough by our resistence that they would simply have brought it greater numbers to take RIT regardless of what we could have mustered. We knew that and once p8 acquired the Eye of Whatsit, moral within RISE dropped through the floor.





Eye of Whatsit?





Ok.. Eye of Terror. C'mon Flax, you remember. Wink


Yaay
Amarr
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.02.14 23:54:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Yaay on 14/02/2008 23:56:47
Originally by: Gorefacer
Originally by: Yaay

Rise and most alliances aren't used to the hardcore life that Bobbits have. Criticisms that BOB pilots get are expected because they are expected to be the best. Smaller less organized alliances are not as adept at this life.



It's a game, not a way of life. RISE didn't appreciate the speech because most of us didn't like being disrespected by our allies, if what you say is true and BoB pilots are conditioned to accept that kind of behavior then I'd say it all worked out for the best for both parties.

Your post is the clearest example of what Goons claim to hate about BoB on these forums. Before I'd only seen mostly jokes about "BoB is better than you", you actually sound like you believe what you type here though.

As an individual you did more to hurt RISE than help, and somehow RISE failed you.




It has nothing to do with one alliance being better than another, don't misconstrue the words. It has to do with drawing the potential of an alliance out to it's fullest.

You have 2 choices when facing criticism, hate the person who says it, or learn from what is being told in an effort to improve.

You do not push people to preform at the level you know they're capable of, you push them to exceed their own beliefs.

The problem with the Rise guys who are bitter about some speech that was made is that that they don't want to think for 2 seconds that it was done with any good intentions. If you stopped to think for 2 seconds, maybe you'd realize that my "disresepect" was maybe just an outsiders opinion of where to improve. But instead, it's far to easy to just scapegoat.

Devian 666
Gallente
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2008.02.15 00:15:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Yaay
The problem with the Rise guys who are bitter about some speech that was made is that that they don't want to think for 2 seconds that it was done with any good intentions.
So what you're saying is that the effect of the speech was different from the intention.

Flax Volcanus
Caldari
It's A Trap
Posted - 2008.02.15 03:06:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 15/02/2008 03:20:23
Originally by: Yaay
The problem with the Rise guys who are bitter about some speech that was made is that that they don't want to think for 2 seconds that it was done with any good intentions. If you stopped to think for 2 seconds, maybe you'd realize that my "disresepect" was maybe just an outsiders opinion of where to improve. But instead, it's far to easy to just scapegoat.


Ah, ofc! We're the ones who are mistaken! How could we be so foolish? Wow, good thing we didn't give a rat's ass about what your "outsider's opinion" was. Rolling Eyes

Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2008.02.15 08:06:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Yaay
Edited by: Yaay on 14/02/2008 23:56:47
Originally by: Gorefacer
Originally by: Yaay

Rise and most alliances aren't used to the hardcore life that Bobbits have. Criticisms that BOB pilots get are expected because they are expected to be the best. Smaller less organized alliances are not as adept at this life.



It's a game, not a way of life. RISE didn't appreciate the speech because most of us didn't like being disrespected by our allies, if what you say is true and BoB pilots are conditioned to accept that kind of behavior then I'd say it all worked out for the best for both parties.

Your post is the clearest example of what Goons claim to hate about BoB on these forums. Before I'd only seen mostly jokes about "BoB is better than you", you actually sound like you believe what you type here though.

As an individual you did more to hurt RISE than help, and somehow RISE failed you.




It has nothing to do with one alliance being better than another, don't misconstrue the words. It has to do with drawing the potential of an alliance out to it's fullest.

You have 2 choices when facing criticism, hate the person who says it, or learn from what is being told in an effort to improve.

You do not push people to preform at the level you know they're capable of, you push them to exceed their own beliefs.

The problem with the Rise guys who are bitter about some speech that was made is that that they don't want to think for 2 seconds that it was done with any good intentions. If you stopped to think for 2 seconds, maybe you'd realize that my "disresepect" was maybe just an outsiders opinion of where to improve. But instead, it's far to easy to just scapegoat.


Whether it's in a game or not, "speeches" like the one you made will never motivate me, just **** me off. The same type of leadership doesn't work for everyone. I believe you had good intentions when making the speech. I'm not claiming that RISE would have survived if it wasn't for your speech, so don't think I'm tossing that blame on your shoulders.

You messed up, trying to twist that fact into a RISE failure is ridiculous (we had plenty not involving you already). You had good intentions at heart, had a bad day, messed up, and said the wrong **** to the wrong group of people. No big deal, Yaay: "sorry I messed up" Ex-RISE "NP, we moved on" Hi-Fives all around.


Rhamnousia
Caldari
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.02.15 10:13:00 - [172]
 

Lots of good members I'm seeing in this here thread, heh. Glad to see y'all still alive and kicking.

Being a FC of Rise, low rank, but who gives a frak, eh? I got a bit of a story to tell myself.

To be perfectly honest, there wasn't much communication going around regarding military movement. Leaders, military wise, were constantly absent, mostly due to RL issues, which i can't and won't blame. This, after all, is still a game. But for the fights that I, myself, part-took. RISE, itself, performed quite extraordinary. We were outnumbered the majority of the time, if not all. But that's an already-well-known fact.

I didn't give a rat's ass about what's going on Council, I didn't have access to council till very late into the demise of RISE itself. I was one of the last to leave RIT triangle when everything had lost. I was the one still screaming for gang and such when morale of the troop dropped through the floor. I was trying to bring that morale up by trying to retaliate PL's nano/ECM tactic that plaguing the game atm, and RIT triangle at the time. I was still trying to get gangs going even after the call to leave Feyth was rung. I was trying to secure alliance mates' assets before my own. And even at this point, when most of our PvPers are simply burnt out, when our morale was lower than what i thought possible, we still have people joining gangs and help where they can.

My point being, RISE was a good alliance, what went wrong was the lack of proper communication, no real strategy to counter spies with counterintelligence, no real rules, more of guidelines. Yaay was certainly, but only partially, right in his post, and his speech. It's been too damn long now that i dont even remember half of what being said. But what does it matter?

Lokesh made a few good points about what really happened and overlooked by the spies because it'd make us look good and not them. That's the thing about this forum anyway, making the other guy look bad.

Leadership of RISE, i dont even want to beat on that dead horse myself, i've been told it suck by its own member, who am i to try and differ that?

what more important, to me, is the pilots that made of the RISE i knew, not some picture painted up by certain overly-pride individuals about what they have and have not accomplished in the demise of RISE, I don't have to elaborate this for you to know who I'm talking about.

The PvPers of RISE were great pilots, you should try flying with them sometimes. Ok, maybe not the goons, we dont dislike you, we hate you, period. (yes, mittani, that came from the bottom of my heart. :))

It's been long, so maybe i'll cut this post short with a few final words to an alliance once kwown as RISE, and perhaps, to this thread as well, but that's only wishful thinking, now isn't it?

Rise was a good alliance. There were certainly, without a shadow of a doubt, a lot of mistakes made. During its prime AND during its darkest hours, which ultimately, and inevitably, led to its demise. The leadership structure was loose and had no real anchor. The guys left in charge, Lokesh, Flax, Coolgamer to name a few, did what they could. They couldn't take the blame for letting the alliance die even if they wanted to. RISE as an alliance met its inevitable end simply by doing its best against the overwhelming odds that is the Coalition itself. RISE is dead. And may CAOD be your final resting place. (Maybe.)

GeMiPaT
Minmatar
The Holy Knights of Malta
Posted - 2008.02.15 21:18:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: GeMiPaT on 15/02/2008 21:22:32
CCP... instead of asking ppl to add corp tags in forum, why don't you do that automatically upon saving of the posts in this part of the forum... hopefully I saved my post in a text file.
------------ restart of what has been deleted ------

Hi here, to ex-rise and others.

The initial post is rather good and accurate on what happened except for bob. There is probably more to be said though as the ones writing here are not talking from the beginning when we joined RHG and BOB blue list. I also agree with coolgamer and not because we are in the same corp ;)

For the records, our corp was in RISE since the time we were still in the West (when we merged our little alliance GA to them) until the end of RHG. so a little more than a year probably.

When we went there, the GBC was attacked in that region in the week or two that followed. We resisted to that and all the attacks were repelled with or without the help of BOB (without on P8 gate camping or with like the RA MS killed), people coming to RHG were going back in pod at best. At that time we had less corporations, lots of good fighters and some good FCs.
Then BOB took back the south and started to threaten the north. We had some time then to imagine we could take part of the KOS space as it could help bob and help us gain some free ground. I was not really happy with that and would have preferred that our combat pilots followed the bob fleets rather than go for that but a council decision is a council decision so they started that madness. At that time we should have invested a lot more money into our own defenses like P8 and other home systems as well as in the systems that linked us to our allies towards AZN. We didn't. all budget money from RISE was used to start to plant POs in KOS space and reimburse individual PVP losses, taking the same timing to what BOB was doing in some other systems up north at the same time. Things were going well up to the point when we started to feel some pressure back on us, more and more pressure and then BOB starting to retreat again. Instead of taking back those towers and retreat as well (like bob did) and hopefully have those POSes defending our systems, the council decided for a long while to continue that plan even when it started to look completely irrealistic and that almost no people were showing up to follow the fleet to KW, I remember like Flax some days when I went completely mad about what was written on commands, council and other secrets rooms. I was really sick about it but once again, the council decides by number of votes and lots of people in the council had big teeths growing not knowing or ignoring our real internal weak situation and "international or intersollars as you wish" situation. A very few people saw it coming, but nobody listened to us (I'm proud to say RES saw it coming for a long time even if it doesn't help today), we (RES) were even told that we were spending too much money in POS Fuel while we were struggling to have it on time and didn't had enough to cover what should have been covered. But well, things were still ok for RISE back then, it was just an expansive battle that we were slowly loosing with KOS, nothing too big. But at the same time we started to have some more small corps not yet ready for full ops and old corps started to loose members, often the good ones.

Then bob started to retreat further south and even further west. And then comes the PL (I won't say it again, what says Shadoo and Coolgamer is the truth), we had some good fights in the very beginning with them (PL were good pilots really), then we started to lack pilots to defend (classic to any alliance going slowly down), people being sacked because they did a wrong op as a commander, some other being sacked because they wanted to shout at the council, etc... (some traitors too)
AND also what others are saying... --- to be followed in next post ---

GeMiPaT
Minmatar
The Holy Knights of Malta
Posted - 2008.02.15 21:19:00 - [174]
 

AND also what others are saying... the order from the military and council to go out of RHG and raid either with bob or in KOS or... I don't know where... this completely killed our defenses. At that time our corp alone had to maintain alive more than 20 POS, so RES stayed in RHG mostly to refuel and take part of the logistics with some other very dedicated pilots to POS counterspam, fuel pos (and that has been some real sport at some times), pos defense gunners (lots of ennemy ships went down because of this but we lacked our own fleet (gone away to raid...) to help us keep the POSes and be 100% efficient in defense. Sometimes we simply lacked people to armor or hull rep... at that time, we saw BOB coming some times and it was a real relief for us. We could have liked to see them more on some occasions but I still believe that the communication between RISE and BOB was probably not enough to clearly say when it was vital to see them and when it was not. I cannot say for sure, I wasn't part of those discussions. Neither was I part of rent discussion but from what I remember, Coolgamer is right, we didn't pay all the time, bob was not asking anything back at the time that we were so smacked up in local. Also not to forget the final decision to save some assets from KW, but it was way too late to save anything significant that could have helped us in defense at that point.

I have to say that there was a lot of good pilots in RISE at the beginning, that the number started to fade away at some point and that the reasons are multiple and not only the fact that we were often attacked or camped. The logistic department done by a few corps and individuals including RES pilots has been incredible. Like saving POS at the very last hour of fuel everyday for so many weeks. I am really proud to say hi to all those people that went to empire to bring the fuel, broke the camps to bring the fuel in some other systems, doing diversions to get others where they had to and so many unbelievable stories I don't have time to relate here. The real asset of RISE at the end remained in that topic, an extraordinary logistic, some good fighters but not enough to make a difference and some good people completely lost in what their leaders told them to do. Beside that we had probably too many people wandering somewhere (god knows where), crazy decision made at a majority that I'm still wondering today how can it be that there are so many blind people.........
So like coolgamer says, I would prefer an alliance that is less democratic. That democracy process really killed the determination of the pilots, killed the defense build up of RHG, the rapidity to take actions, the independance to rapidly decide something. All that has been a big mess and I'm not willing to enter an alliance that would be proud of such a democracy mechanism. It's good to ask to corp leaders where they want the alliance to be headed to but it's not good to ask them on every decision to be made even if it concerns a big part of the budget the alliance has. The utopia behind that was way too big, we needed a leader instead of council decisions. We also needed some Commanders for the fights but we lost them alsmot all before the end and the remaining ones were scared (and I understand them) of asking too big sacrifices to the troops. Something coming again from alliance policy and council watching over commanders shoulders, something I never admitted as a good way of managing the military wing of an alliance that wanted to fight originally while moving to RHG.

--- to be followed ---

GeMiPaT
Minmatar
The Holy Knights of Malta
Posted - 2008.02.15 21:22:00 - [175]
 

For BOB, I will never say something bad about them because the renting of RHG was part of the deal, we came there for that and we knew that there was a war going on. The kind of war that divides the map in 2 big coalitions. We played the south, we lost but we were happy to fight on that side because we choosed it. Fighting with some of the alliance of the North-West or the east would have been a very bad pick for me, I would probably have left my corp if we did it. I know bob was probably not always taking care of the renters but their goal was much bigger than defending the renters. a 6b bill for RHG certainly didn't include anything else than being able to enrich ourselves in that very rich region. I never understood ppl smacking at us "hey bob is not coming to defend you", well no, that was not part of the contract but we are glad they did it on occasions. Now if you want to criticize bob attitude on that subject, I would say they did really good, their only mistake has probably been not to enroll the renters with them in real operations and real integration into a coalition of alliances to fight efficiently against high numbers. If we take RISE as an example, we could probably have lasted and helped them much longer if we had some commanders (I know they have tons of good commanders) taking our fleets with them and defend our territory as well as more advices on defences, links with other renters and all that... Bob has probably not believed enough in other small and medium alliances being able to help them at one point, that's my only regret but surely not something bad about them, big alliances like that have their own goals. RISE was ready to help on many occasions and often we stayed waiting for nothing or the action happened before we know there was something to happen. I believe now that what remains from the south defences are more playing like '1' but that was not the case at that time, that's probably a mistake that has been done back then, time will tell.

For RISE. It has been good, I took a lot of fun in fights during the 6-8 first months then became a monk in logistic/pos warfare for the remaining, spending incredible nights that I enjoyed a lot. I regret that we lost so many good FCs for silly reasons and that we lost no long teeths council members, that should have been the opposite. Good peoples, good fights, good memories, bad administration and decision making process. I was happy the day I requested my accesses to be revoked so that I would only see the 'little guy' sections only. It was really bad for my health to read all that.... b****s***t and following that, also a relief to leave the alliance when it relocated to the west. We did our job until the end (the end of RHG at least, nothing was really important after that)

For RES, well I'm still impressed we were able to do all that with a mid size corp, although we lost the territory, it is a kind of victory for the individuals of our corp, we were able to see our potential.

For the ennemies, good fights to PL well present in this thread, almost the only ones that really did the difference down there as they didn't need the numbers to achieve something very significant against RISE like others had to. (shadoo we know it was annoying not to fight, that was part of the strategy but I'm sure you had good laughing times too).

For the others that believe they know but were not there. pleaaaase stop smacking and dreaming about what it could have been or not.


Rhamnousia
Caldari
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2008.02.16 05:15:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: GeMiPaT


For the others that believe they know but were not there. pleaaaase stop smacking and dreaming about what it could have been or not.




that.

Gemipat, howdy mate? :)

Gem summed it up pretty neatly. really. and that's as short as it ever gonna get.

+1 for an old mate. what these RES guys did in RIT triangle was the impossible itself.

yar'gdargen
Gallente
Dawn of Fire
Black-Out
Posted - 2008.02.16 07:09:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: yar''gdargen on 16/02/2008 07:11:09
I give lokesh a good amount of credit. Seemed to me, as one of the fighters, that he was really trying to get us back up to strength. The forums being only a part of his contribution, but the most easily seen by spies and third parties (GOONS).

RISE was fun, except towards the end being at times one of the few integrating with bob gangs and seeing first hand that the alliance was far from what it used to be.


edit: i saw res put in a strong effort to the end

Coolgamer
Minmatar
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.16 08:01:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: GeMiPaT
For BOB, I will never say something bad about them because the renting of RHG was part of the deal, we came there for that and we knew that there was a war going on. The kind of war that divides the map in 2 big coalitions. We played the south, we lost but we were happy to fight on that side because we choosed it.


This is a typical example of eve politics since almost 2 years, show how the system worked for bob pets. Many people were given, like us, the ability to hold space, while we would have probably - even certainly^^- not been able to get it ourselves.

This obviously also apply for all RSF little alliances or corps that circle around RA-Goon-TCF.

There is no bads and goods nor evil in this war (outgame forum war is another subject i wont discuss^^), just people who want to have fun and you cant blame them if they fail at what they do ingame or not, because honestly i *beeeep* dont care about what you think, we had fun killing and loosing stuff and this will always be the only purpose of this game for 99% ppl here ^^

Rise is dead like so many before, but not the friendship that was in there, blue one day red the other one, and many friends over the galaxies Wink

KardonHarman
Caldari
Demi-Goth
Posted - 2008.02.16 09:41:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: KardonHarman on 16/02/2008 09:42:29
Quote:
For the ennemies, good fights to PL well present in this thread, almost the only ones that really did the difference down there as they didn't need the numbers to achieve something very significant against RISE like others had to. (shadoo we know it was annoying not to fight, that was part of the strategy but I'm sure you had good laughing times too).


I tend to stay out of CAOD nowadays, but wanted to post to this to clear up some half truths from some posters.

I lived in RIT area for a mumber of weeks in my Falcon, during that time RISE did put up some great fights, It was noticable to me that it was the same pilots almost everytime that came out to try to fight or rep their station services, while others we never ever saw undocked.

A lot of the time it was quite boring in RIT, us cloaked watching and RISE docked up, at those times we had some good chats and laughs, there was very little nastiness that I saw. It is a shame that those from RISE who did fight were not joined by their greater number of fellow alliance members who stayed docked, if they had the job we were doing would have been much harder and taken much longer.

PL didnt kill RISE, nor Goons, We just heped it on its way,a few active members tried to save it but it was defeated by its own members not willing to risk all.

To all those from RISE who did all you could, fly safe wherever you are and GF, to those who sat in station and let their alliance die, shame on you

Antfred von'Ricktofen
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.02.16 11:47:00 - [180]
 

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