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Dr Gidazu
Eternum Noctem
Posted - 2008.01.20 10:43:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Dr Gidazu on 20/01/2008 10:52:31
Edited by: Dr Gidazu on 20/01/2008 10:49:51
The big problem in EvE since first GNW has been blobing. This overloads servers and makes the playability of game rather weak. But Im sure everyone reading this are already aware of the downsides.ugh

Now this idea is based on the fact that when you down a ship it has a nice explosion effect, but the actual explosion is missing from the game. Usually when things explode there is a blast wave, debris flying around and all kinds of radiation and interference. What if this was added to each explosion. On Ship destruction event you would have a fixed amount of damage on certain radius (like a smart bomb) since the blastwave and debris are hitting surrounding objects and all ships in the AoE would also loose their sensors for fixed amount of time, say 10 sec recalibration time or what ever to compensate with all the radiation particles and all stuff flying around.

This would effectively make life difficult for blob's and give advantage to those who bother to put some effort into actually planning engagements ahead.

This would also enable a new side into the game... called suicide run YARRRR!!. You see your ship being primaried so instead of warping away, you can just push in the middle of hostile gang / fleet and possibly take few of them with you or atleast disable few of them temporarily. Twisted Evil

Ofc' there are some problems with this idea too. First one that comes to mind is the disadvantage for the closerange ships that use Blasters and AutoCannons, since they would always be in blast radius (glad to hear any viable options on this), but overall this could make Blob's think twice before engaging.

Flames & ideas, both welcome Cool

[Never mind all the typos, intoxicated person talking Embarassed]

Ma Zhiqiang
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.20 11:10:00 - [2]
 

Great idea. :D

Verys
I Heart Chaos
Posted - 2008.01.20 11:27:00 - [3]
 

I dont know how big you want your blast wave impact to be because i dont feel like losing my t2 frigs everytime a shuttle blows up :P

But the idea is ok...
Saying if you were in a fleet battle this can cause a lot of annoyance at each side.

xStaRx
Posted - 2008.01.20 11:29:00 - [4]
 

Yes, i was realy dissapointed when i figured out that Destruction of the Ship does NOT provide Splash damage..

Lets say PoP of BC/BS and god forbig Capital :) may provide some splash damage to surrounding objects (maybe Pod will be an exeption)

Dr Gidazu
Eternum Noctem
Posted - 2008.01.20 15:30:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Verys
I dont know how big you want your blast wave impact to be because i dont feel like losing my t2 frigs everytime a shuttle blows up :P



Good point there.
Which leads to conclusion that the blast damage and sensor recalibration time should be somehow related to ships mass (thats the ship that is blowing up naturally). More mass -> more stuff flying around when it explodes. Or amount's could be simply tied to ship classes (keeping in mind server performance).

For example one BS blowing up next to another could do 500 ... 1000 points of damage and cause say 5 .. 10 sec. sensor recalibration time. This wouldnt blow up that 2nd BS(unless its already close to death anyways), but would make a considerable dent on frigates HP buffer. Then again if a shuttle blows up it cause's hardly any damage or interference since there isnt really anything there to do it.

What comes to numbers, Im not even gonna start doing the math required for this kind of event (Unless CCP wants a new employee Hire me! Very Happy). In a perfect world blast damage and interference whould work like turret falloff does (or atleast close to it). But we live in a world where Server performance dictates everything so math behind this kind of event would probably need to be generalized a bit. Confused

Ymandra Raystara
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.01.20 17:32:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Ymandra Raystara on 20/01/2008 17:32:19
Very interesting idea. Perhaps, if implemented, we do take mass of the ship as a source for damage, but work it like how missiles work. So the guy worried about his T2 frigate would be small enough and have sufficient speed to avoid most (but not all) of the damage, whereas a large hulking almost-stationary target like a BS would take a larger chunk of damage.

I don't think there should be sensor/targetting loss though... that should stay in the realm of EW imo. The damage should be sufficient. Also in order to save people's graphics cards.. the current explosions should stay the same, and the only difference is the additional damage effect.. not larger, more graphical explosions.

Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
Farlight Council
Elitist Cowards
Posted - 2008.01.20 17:48:00 - [7]
 

I fully endorse this idea. Cool

/Signed.

Kadoes Khan
Posted - 2008.01.20 18:18:00 - [8]
 

Quote:
The big problem in EvE since first GNW has been blobing. This overloads servers and makes the playability of game rather weak. But Im sure everyone reading this are already aware of the downsides

If the problem with blobing is server overload why not improve the servers(they are already doing this) rather then changing actual game mechanics?

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2008.01.20 18:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: NightF0x on 20/01/2008 18:35:37
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Quote:
The big problem in EvE since first GNW has been blobing. This overloads servers and makes the playability of game rather weak. But Im sure everyone reading this are already aware of the downsides

If the problem with blobing is server overload why not improve the servers(they are already doing this) rather then changing actual game mechanics?


better yet if it is server side related why add more calculations to the mass of calculations that the server has to perform thus lagging the server even more every time a ship plodes.

Empire marketslave
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2008.01.20 18:40:00 - [10]
 

so what happens in a high sec system with lots of neutrals around, it could be possible to kill someone with out concord.


just suround a ship with really cheap ships and keep blowing them up untill it kills the target ship

Dr Gidazu
Eternum Noctem
Posted - 2008.01.20 20:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kadoes Khan
If the problem with blobing is server overload why not improve the servers(they are already doing this) rather then changing actual game mechanics?
-=^=-

"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."


At some point you ultimately run into the limitations of currently available technology unless someone cares to build CCP a quantum computer.
When it comes to game mechanics I simply whish to introduce a feature which could give more power to players that like to think about what they are doing in PvP over that mindless mob that only rely on more and more numbers. On other words, give smaller corporations even a snowballs chance in hell to get anything done ingame. (I think I mentioned something about this in my initial post already btw.)
This might hopefully also engourage players not to use huge blobs since having superior numbers wouldnt automatically win EvE for you.

Originally by: NightF0x
better yet if it is server side related why add more calculations to the mass of calculations that the server has to perform thus lagging the server even more every time a ship plodes.


Same answer as above. And yes, it would add some load on servers. However this is not a 'miracle cure for Lag' thread. Im simply bringing up ideas how to make blob's (which in turn do create massive lag) less desirable form of PvP.

Originally by: Empire marketslave
so what happens in a high sec system with lots of neutrals around, it could be possible to kill someone with out concord.

just suround a ship with really cheap ships and keep blowing them up untill it kills the target ship


I belive you can already do this just by shooting the intended target and you'll loose your ship to concord. I cant see the difference, not sure about sec.rating hit though... never done it myself. Its not like the blast damage we are talking about would equal DDD.

Keep on bringing it, great feedback so far Cool

Flesh Necrosis
Posted - 2008.01.21 00:55:00 - [12]
 

Yea, to the domino effect.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.01.21 01:54:00 - [13]
 

I like this idea..... just make it small and based on ships size (both explosion damage and amount of damage taken) and it should work great. so a bs sized explosion will not do as much damage to frigs as to bs's and u don't have tacklers getting blown up nonstop.

/signed

typhado

Machater
Posted - 2008.01.21 02:17:00 - [14]
 

cool idea, would like to see this along with torpedos causing some splash damage(i mean look at their visual explosion its huge!)

I don't however think this will stop blobbing, right now there is just not much of a way around having the huge blob. When a force is attacking your space you will try to mount the best defense possible, which will cause your attacker to need the biggest force possible.

Best way I can see to work around that is to make it so that instead of having to have all 200 of your pilots in the same place you can break them up into smaller gangs and all attack at once on different targets(like 10 gangs of 20 people instead of 200 people in 1 gang). Problem is right now 20 people really can't inflict serious damage on a POS. Would be quite a bit more fun though, having like 10 fights going on in different places all at once, imagine trying to deal with that as a fleet commander :)

NightF0x
Gallente
Intergalactic League of Terrorists
Posted - 2008.01.21 02:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dr Gidazu
...Same answer as above. And yes, it would add some load on servers. However this is not a 'miracle cure for Lag' thread. Im simply bringing up ideas how to make blob's (which in turn do create massive lag) less desirable form of PvP.


but but but your thread is titled "Ultimate Anti-Blob Feature". I just assumed it was all-encompassing.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.21 06:23:00 - [16]
 

If this gets implemented I'm going to blow up my corp member alt's battleships right outside Jita's station

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.01.21 12:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dr Gidazu

I belive you can already do this just by shooting the intended target and you'll loose your ship to concord. I cant see the difference, not sure about sec.rating hit though... never done it myself. Its not like the blast damage we are talking about would equal DDD.

Keep on bringing it, great feedback so far Cool


Step 1: insure ship, leave unfitted except for mwd

Step 2: Prime ship by brining to low strucutre.

Step 3: Cram ship next to target. Destroy

Step 4: Profit

Imagine a big gaggle of ships, like say at the jita 4-4 undock. One ship exploding would allow the offender to pick the ship they want to destroy[one unfitted] and be able to start a chain reaction that kills all the ships in the area, they can then loot.

They recieve no sec hit either.

If it did not work in this manner, it would be impossible to fight in highsec, as the splash damage would generate concord any time anyone died.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.01.21 15:29:00 - [18]
 

I like the idea of a ship exploding and having either an EMP style explosion, or ECM one. Ship destructions should be violent, but causing damage in high-sec is a huge no no.

To be honest, the blob does not really refer to lots of ships in close proximity (atleast from my experience) but rather just an excessive amount of ships to accomplish a simple task (roaming pirate gangs anyone?) CCPs attempt to make things available to smaller gangs of players to accomplish something does not stop the fact that the objective is still doable by LARGER groups. This feature I like, but it will do nothing to deter the advantage of large concentrated amounts of firepower.

If you wanted to deter this, maybe the ECM/EMP should apply to ships that have the exploding one locked? Some sort of feedback loop within the targeting system. This will encourage people to vary their target list lest a large portion of their squad is left a sitting duck for a short period of time.

Arelius Ceasar
Posted - 2008.01.21 17:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Verys
I dont know how big you want your blast wave impact to be because i dont feel like losing my t2 frigs everytime a shuttle blows up :P

But the idea is ok...
Saying if you were in a fleet battle this can cause a lot of annoyance at each side.


Obviously, the bigger the ship the bigger the blast radius, a shuttle would only have a small blast radius of say 500M, a low tech frigate around 5KM, a high tech frigate 10KM, a low tech cruiser 15KM a high tech cruiser 20KM, a low tech BC 25KM, a high tech BC 30KM, a low tech BS 35KM, a high tech bs 40KM, and then the Cap ships would have blast radiuses ranging from 100KM to 200KM depending on if it's a Dread or Titan or something in between. I think the damage dealt should mostly be EM interference (like dropping a lockbreaker bomb and an EM Bomb at the same time), plus some Armor Damage, but not too much, I think ships should be damaged by this but not destroyed.

Dr Gidazu
Eternum Noctem
Posted - 2008.01.21 19:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Arelius Ceasar
Originally by: Verys
I dont know how big you want your blast wave impact to be because i dont feel like losing my t2 frigs everytime a shuttle blows up :P

But the idea is ok...
Saying if you were in a fleet battle this can cause a lot of annoyance at each side.


Obviously, the bigger the ship the bigger the blast radius, a shuttle would only have a small blast radius of say 500M, a low tech frigate around 5KM, a high tech frigate 10KM, a low tech cruiser 15KM a high tech cruiser 20KM, a low tech BC 25KM, a high tech BC 30KM, a low tech BS 35KM, a high tech bs 40KM, and then the Cap ships would have blast radiuses ranging from 100KM to 200KM depending on if it's a Dread or Titan or something in between. I think the damage dealt should mostly be EM interference (like dropping a lockbreaker bomb and an EM Bomb at the same time), plus some Armor Damage, but not too much, I think ships should be damaged by this but not destroyed.


This guy got the idea, though not sure about the numbers (still not gonna do the math myself ugh). As said few times before the damage shouldnt be huge, just something that add's up in longer fights.
And for those palnning to nuke Jita 4-4 with this, just use smartbombing BS and you'll get better results faster and cheaper. Also if trough any miracle this would ever going to get implemented and someone gets a huge urge to set up that chain reaction thingy with multiple BattleShips, do tell me when and where, so that I can either get the whole ships and dock, or get the default insurance ISK when I get blown up for boarding Laughing. I belive some 2 Bill worth of battleships would do same damage as one SmartBombing BS. Rolling Eyes Point about Concord was good though. Probably something that should be looked into on larger scale than this too.

While we can agree that none of the ideas are perfect we can also state with relative accuracy that 99% of ideas and features can be somehow exploited.

Pharos Dei
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.01.21 21:22:00 - [21]
 

Good idea, not entirely new, but still good.

but as quite a few people pointed out there are significant problems with this in high sec for one.

the other thing is, how much damage do you want to be inflicted by say a bs exploding?

the problem is if its some 10,000 damage it would be a viable anti-fleet option, but would be a terror in empire since you basically could "remote" suicide gank tons of people at once.

The idea to do some lousy 1,000 damage will not really work, since for a fleet fitted battleship those 1,000 damage would be most laughable because they are passive tanked with some 35k "tanked" hp only.

another problem is the the range. 5 Km would be essentially useless. 15km would make sense but as stated before would reinforce suicide capabilities to an unwanted level...

and yet another issue would be as before mentioned close range fighters.


ok, enough with the problems and on to the opportunities.

the idea you brought up with the "ecm-burst" effect is really really nice, not only is it justifyable rp wise, it is also eliminating most of the problems mentioned above without getting rid of the main point, which is to limit blobs.

The "ecm-Burst" idea would limit blob vs blob warfare in atleast some respect, which tbh is more than weve seen in a long time cept for funky lag when bobs titans are about to die :P ...

while not really being a valid empire suicide strategy

Johli
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.21 21:51:00 - [22]
 

This idea is the best, although the fact it will undoubtedly be abused in highsec.
First off, you could, uh, somehow limit the damage in empire. Perhaps when a ship is about to blow, Concord's specialized ships could warp in and "contain" the explosion. No damage to anybody.
Hey, if they could suddenly appear in 50+ numbers in 2 seconds, they could do this.
This would be empire only, although some type of "Containment" module could be added so players can also limit explosions (not 100%, but maybe 50% or so) This could also give close range ships a chance to survive.

Damage-wise, the damage, of course, should get smaller as you get further away.
The tank-breaking oh snap worthy 10,000 dmg could be limited to a very small distance, say 3000-5000m. Past that, it would go down to 5,000 (5000-10km), 1000 (10-20km) and then a weak 500-100-nothing past that. A fixed amount of damage, as stated by the op, might be easier on the servers, although it would kill realism. (But this is a game, so meh) I'm not sure whether or not those distances can really kill blobs, so somebody is welcome to fix em.

Also, for damage-type, leave it EM, although explosive type would be more realistic. But, it's still a game. :P

Darth Felin
Posted - 2008.01.22 13:09:00 - [23]
 

This idea is just awful. First it will be heavily abused in Empire.

Also do you how much calculations have to pe performed for each AoE exposion? (Hint: That's why we do not see many AoE weapons in EvE.)

Commander BroudMoore
Eternum Noctem
Posted - 2008.01.22 14:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Darth Felin
This idea is just awful. First it will be heavily abused in Empire.

Also do you how much calculations have to pe performed for each AoE exposion? (Hint: That's why we do not see many AoE weapons in EvE.)


Yeah, I guess that the reason we DO NOT have Smartbomb's, all kinds of stealtbomber Bomb's, DDD's, Heavy interdictors and so on...
NO WAIT! Rolling Eyes

And yes, this would probably take some calculating, hardly more than adding few 8 turret BS in system though.

I think this is a nice idea and shouldnt be just pushed aside just becose it could possibly be exploited in empire (theres no exploits in game at all now ... rightLaughing), Im pretty sure this could be refined into something that could actually work.

Arelius Ceasar
Posted - 2008.01.22 15:38:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Arelius Ceasar on 22/01/2008 15:41:26
Originally by: Johli
This idea is the best, although the fact it will undoubtedly be abused in highsec.
First off, you could, uh, somehow limit the damage in empire. Perhaps when a ship is about to blow, Concord's specialized ships could warp in and "contain" the explosion. No damage to anybody.
Hey, if they could suddenly appear in 50+ numbers in 2 seconds, they could do this.
This would be empire only, although some type of "Containment" module could be added so players can also limit explosions (not 100%, but maybe 50% or so) This could also give close range ships a chance to survive.

Damage-wise, the damage, of course, should get smaller as you get further away.
The tank-breaking oh snap worthy 10,000 dmg could be limited to a very small distance, say 3000-5000m. Past that, it would go down to 5,000 (5000-10km), 1000 (10-20km) and then a weak 500-100-nothing past that. A fixed amount of damage, as stated by the op, might be easier on the servers, although it would kill realism. (But this is a game, so meh) I'm not sure whether or not those distances can really kill blobs, so somebody is welcome to fix em.

Also, for damage-type, leave it EM, although explosive type would be more realistic. But, it's still a game. :P


Originally by: Darth Felin
This idea is just awful. First it will be heavily abused in Empire.

Also do you how much calculations have to pe performed for each AoE exposion? (Hint: That's why we do not see many AoE weapons in EvE.)


There's already tons of AoE weapons in the game, so that's not a valid point, as for the damage being different depending on the distance, that's ALREADY a calculation done by every gun in the game, as to whether these can be combined or not, I don't know. As I've said before though, I think the biggest damage should be to EM (since all ships have 0 resistance to EM on Shields) and EMP (such as like the LockBreaker Bomb) The point again, isn't to destroy ships, it's to break up the Blob.

Another reason that I like this BTW, is because if you're already going to lose a ship to a Pirate, wouldn't it be nice to know you can slam your ship into him, self destruct and do SOME damage to the bastartd?

Linas IV
Posted - 2008.01.22 16:00:00 - [26]
 

Great idea in my opinion.

If the ammount of damage is balanced properly,it could work out well solve one of EVEs major problems.
(should be not enough to suicide gank someone in empire, maybe 3000dmg for a BS, multiplied with a sig based factor maybe?)
The Sensor recalibration idea sounds very well too.

Both could drasticly change how fleetfight work nowadays, and make smaller ships/gangs more usefull.

/signed


 

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