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blankseplocked I'm puzzled. What to train for? [Amarr HAC's]
 
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Seimor Jeneet
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:02:00 - [1]
 

Greetings.

I have decided to go down the path of the HAC's since i've heard alot of great things about them.

My question is though:

Sacrilege or Zealot?

I have about 900k SP in gunnery and 300k in Missiles.
So for me the obvious would be going for the zealot since theres the shortest training time on that. But i dont know?
Would it pay off training missiles and then going for the sacrilege? Can the Zealot even do anything on its own anymore or is Sac just the only HAC left?

I always thought the zealot was really sexy and looked deadly but i hardly see them anymore?

So.

Sac VS Zealot.
Pro's & Con's

- Seimor Jeneet

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:04:00 - [2]
 

Um, if I had the choice with only that little difference in SP, I'd go for the Sacrilege. The only down side to the Sacrilege is that it won't help your non-Khanid ships out all that much.

-Liang

Seimor Jeneet
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:06:00 - [3]
 

Well is it possible to stay khanid all the way then?
I could use the missile skills on my ceptor too.
But there aint a khanid BS is there?

Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr
Inadeptus Mechanicus
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:07:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
Well is it possible to stay khanid all the way then?
I could use the missile skills on my ceptor too.
But there aint a khanid BS is there?


no khanid BS yet. but do do get a CRAZY tank on the damnation. it can do any lvl 4 out there, it just take alittle longer as it have to get into HAM range

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:08:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
But there aint a khanid BS is there?


Exactly. You're probably better off "in the long run" training up the Zealot (because it requires gunnery skills).

However, the Sacrilege is clearly the better of the two HACs (and Khanid ships generally outperform non-khanid ships), and it'd be a crime to tell you not to train it/them.

-Liang

Feng Schui
Minmatar
Cruor Evertum Dominicus
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:08:00 - [6]
 

Maller

Seimor Jeneet
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:12:00 - [7]
 

Right well i think its settled then :b

I've read alot of your posts liang and you always seem to be right so ill take your word of advice on this one (:

You wouldn't happen to have a "general purpose" fit for a sac would you? :b

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:15:00 - [8]
 

Sacrilege:

+Capless Weapons
+No Tracking
+Easier to train for
+Good damage at moderate range (A little worse at 10km, much better at 20km)
+Better Tank
+Can be nano'd really well
+Good cap
+Good tank
+Drones
+Free choice of damage type
+4 mids

-Slower base speed
-HAM Skills not generally applicable to most other ships
-More expensive
-People less likely to engage (:P)

Zealot:

+Longer range
+Slightly better theoretical DPS
+(Basically) no ammo
+Looks cooler
+Instant damage
+Faster base speed
+Can snipe

-Poor damage types
-weaker tank
-worse cap
-no drones
-3 mids
-small cargohold for cap boosters
-can't nano as well

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
Right well i think its settled then :b

I've read alot of your posts liang and you always seem to be right so ill take your word of advice on this one (:

You wouldn't happen to have a "general purpose" fit for a sac would you? :b


Nano:
5x HAM II, 1x whatever (medium neut?)
MWD, Point, 2x whatever (Web, cap, sensor booster, shield extender, you name it)
Rep, 2x OD II, Nano II, BCS II
Polycarbons

Drones

Tank:
5x HAM II, 1x whatever (small gun)
MWD, Point, Web, Injector (400s)
2x MAR II, EANM II, DC II, whatever (BCS, EANM, Thermal plating)
aux nano pumps

drones

I use the latter setup :)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:20:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

Sacrilege
+Easier to train for



I'm curious why you say this. The Zealot seems far easier to train for, considering you don't need to worry about drones at all.

-Liang

Seimor Jeneet
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:21:00 - [11]
 

#1 what the **** is an OD? :b OverDrive injector? :b
#2 Whats a "point" a scrammer? if a scrammer then what range? distrupt or scram? :b

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:22:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
#1 what the **** is an OD? :b OverDrive injector? :b
#2 Whats a "point" a scrammer? if a scrammer then what range? distrupt or scram? :b


If it's "a point", it's a warp disruptor (because they're a 1 point "scrambler").

Also, assume it will be specified specifically if a fit is not using a warp disruptor.

-Liang

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:24:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Terianna Eri

Sacrilege
+Easier to train for



I'm curious why you say this. The Zealot seems far easier to train for, considering you don't need to worry about drones at all.

-Liang

This is true, but the sacrilege doesn't require you to be able to use t2 missiles or rockets, while the zealot requires t2 small lasers to get up to t2 mediums.

On the other hand I didn't consider the drone training but... well, I guess it's kind of a wash.
Good point there =)

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
#1 what the **** is an OD? :b OverDrive injector? :b
#2 Whats a "point" a scrammer? if a scrammer then what range? distrupt or scram? :b


OD is overdrive.
Point = warp disruptor, the 20 (or 24) km variety.


Seimor Jeneet
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 22:27:00 - [14]
 

I see :b
well according to my plan ill be flying a TK II Sac at the start/mid march :b
Giving me... Around 9.4mil SP by the time im in it. Does that sound reasonable?

xHalcyonx
Amarr
About To Die
Predatory Instincts
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:06:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Seimor Jeneet
I see :b
well according to my plan ill be flying a TK II Sac at the start/mid march :b
Giving me... Around 9.4mil SP by the time im in it. Does that sound reasonable?

The Sacrilege is a solid choice, just 2 weeks ago (really doesn't seem that long) I got T2 HAMs and I just finished skilling for T2 Medium Pulses today (I still have to get the Spec to 4 though).
So by about the time that you get into your Sac, I will be stepping into an Absolution.
Both are equally sexy ships, and the Zealot needs +1 turret (grid, cpu, and cap to match). Twisted Evil

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:18:00 - [16]
 

I'd say Sacriledge.

I think right now it's the HAC which worries me the most to see on scanner. That's not to say Zealots aren't good, it's just that Sacriledges are awesome.

Also, training for missiles will make you good with the Malediction which is a very good inty (I plan to train for it sometime, I have T2 rockets for the Rifter anyway), and the CS is preety fearsome.

Plus, I love heavy assault missiles. I use em a lot on my Minmatar ships and I find they're a awesome missile system. Very worth training, really.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:19:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: xHalcyonx
the Zealot needs +1 turret (grid, cpu, and cap to match). Twisted Evil


This. ^_^

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:32:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: xHalcyonx
the Zealot needs +1 turret (grid, cpu, and cap to match). Twisted Evil


This. ^_^

I have yet to find a person who doesn't think that the above is true Cool

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:35:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

I have yet to find an informed person who doesn't think that the above is true Cool


fixed it. ;-)

-Liang

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:44:00 - [20]
 

naaa, zealot (and all amarr ships for that matter) just need the 10% cap use level bonus removed.

Replace it with "+1 Heat sink allowed before they are stacking penalized."

A zealot could then fit 7 heatsinks (with only 2 being stacking penalized) and regain its former ownage. Twisted Evil

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:54:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
naaa, zealot (and all amarr ships for that matter) just need the 10% cap use level bonus removed.

Replace it with "+1 Heat sink allowed before they are stacking penalized."

A zealot could then fit 7 heatsinks (with only 2 being stacking penalized) and regain its former ownage. Twisted Evil

Shocked

Zealot, max skills, t2 heavypulse with AN MF = 277 dps
277 * (1.1^5) / (0.895 ^ 5) = ~777 dps... pushing 1000 with the last two heatsinks added :O

xHalcyonx
Amarr
About To Die
Predatory Instincts
Posted - 2008.01.17 23:57:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: xHalcyonx on 17/01/2008 23:57:27
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Last Wolf
naaa, zealot (and all amarr ships for that matter) just need the 10% cap use level bonus removed.

Replace it with "+1 Heat sink allowed before they are stacking penalized."

A zealot could then fit 7 heatsinks (with only 2 being stacking penalized) and regain its former ownage. Twisted Evil

Shocked

Zealot, max skills, t2 heavypulse with AN MF = 277 dps
277 * (1.1^5) / (0.895 ^ 5) = ~777 dps... pushing 1000 with the last two heatsinks added :O

Your calculations are 20% (25%? im terrible with math) off of what Wolf said.
Wolf said it didn't need a 5th turret.
Rework the equation with 4 turrets. I'm sure its still an insane number. Twisted Evil

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.18 00:01:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: xHalcyonx
Edited by: xHalcyonx on 17/01/2008 23:57:27
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Last Wolf
naaa, zealot (and all amarr ships for that matter) just need the 10% cap use level bonus removed.

Replace it with "+1 Heat sink allowed before they are stacking penalized."

A zealot could then fit 7 heatsinks (with only 2 being stacking penalized) and regain its former ownage. Twisted Evil

Shocked

Zealot, max skills, t2 heavypulse with AN MF = 277 dps
277 * (1.1^5) / (0.895 ^ 5) = ~777 dps... pushing 1000 with the last two heatsinks added :O

Your calculations are 20% (25%? im terrible with math) off of what Wolf said.
Wolf said it didn't need a 5th turret.
Rework the equation with 4 turrets. I'm sure its still an insane number. Twisted Evil



~777 = 4 HP II, AN MF, max skills, no implants, 5x unstacked heatsinks.
277 dps base obtained from EFT, unstacked damage mods done by calculator.

He also didn't include his own numbers unless I'm REALLY blind :O

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
Posted - 2008.01.18 00:02:00 - [24]
 

I don't see it as overpowered. It would literally have ZERO tank, and wouldn't be able to fire that long before he ran out of cap anyways. Also, there are several ships that can break 1k dps and actually have somewhat of a tank. Astarte/megathron/Geddon/typhoon/raven come to mind.


Now the Geddon with 5 100% Heat sinks and 3 stacking penalized heatsinks..... I'm too lazy to do the math but i'm gonna ballpark it around 3000 dps before drones.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.18 00:13:00 - [25]
 

it'd have about 700 dps from 35 km away with scorch... You'd probably have to fit like 2 injectors to keep it firing though :P

Using this:
f(1) = 1
f(2) = 0.8708860
f(3) = 0.5705831
f(4) = 0.2829552
f(5) = 0.1059927
f(6) = 0.0299912

Armageddon, max skills, MP II, AN MF, no heatsinks:
517 dps (not including ogre IIs, for 317 dps)

DPS mod of single heatsink II = 1.1/0.895 = 1.23

517*1.23^5*((1.23-1)*0.871+1)*((1.23-1)*0.5706+1)*((1.23-1)*0.283+1) = 2105 dps
Add drones (317) and it goes up to 2422 dps.

With no stacking penalty:
517*1.23^8 = 2708, +drones for 3025 dps Shocked

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.18 03:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

With no stacking penalty:
517*1.23^8 = 2708, +drones for 3025 dps Shocked


Which would eat through your standard faction/slave Megathron in 70 seconds flat, and your garden variety Raven HP tanked Raven in 31 seconds.

A cookie-cutter Hurricane would last a grand total of 14 seconds, if they were smart enough to turn on both armor reps the moment you came on the overview.

No, not broken at all. Laughing

-Liang

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.01.18 03:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Terianna Eri

With no stacking penalty:
517*1.23^8 = 2708, +drones for 3025 dps Shocked


Which would eat through your standard faction/slave Megathron in 70 seconds flat, and your garden variety Raven HP tanked Raven in 31 seconds.

A cookie-cutter Hurricane would last a grand total of 14 seconds, if they were smart enough to turn on both armor reps the moment you came on the overview.

No, not broken at all. Laughing

-Liang


I actually came up with the ultimate zealot fix ever.
Slot Layout:
High: 5 (5 turret hardpoints)
Mid: 4
Low: 11
Rig: 2
Drones: 25m3
Bonuses: 10% Optimal, 5% RoF, 5% Dam, 7.5% Tracking

Fit:
5x HPL II (AN MF)
10mn MWD II, Large Cap Battery II, Warp Disruptor II, Web
3x HS II, 3x TE II, 3x OD II, Nano II, Medium Armor Rep II
2x Poly I
5x Hobgoblin II

It'd go just over 4k a second, have no issues tracking something moving at 4k transversal (i.e. something being orbited by it), and deal 670dps at 16km optimal.

NOT BROKEN, because it's amarr.
Uh...


Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.01.18 06:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: xHalcyonx
the Zealot needs +1 turret (grid, cpu, and cap to match). Twisted Evil


This. ^_^

I have yet to find a person who doesn't think that the above is true Cool


I know one person: CCP LaughingLaughingLaughing

TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.01.18 07:01:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Terianna Eri

With no stacking penalty:
517*1.23^8 = 2708, +drones for 3025 dps Shocked


Which would eat through your standard faction/slave Megathron in 70 seconds flat, and your garden variety Raven HP tanked Raven in 31 seconds.

A cookie-cutter Hurricane would last a grand total of 14 seconds, if they were smart enough to turn on both armor reps the moment you came on the overview.

No, not broken at all. Laughing

-Liang


no rigs, a lot lower overall hp

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.18 07:13:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld

no rigs, a lot lower overall hp


The Hurricane would be fit with rep amount rigs, but tbh, in a world where geddons and Zealots were floating around like that, the only kind of tank at all would be a plate tank.

The Mega, btw, was calculated as using 3 trimarks, optimal HP buffer, and a slave set.

-Liang


 

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