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Zubakis
The Carebear Stare
Hydroponic Zone
Posted - 2008.01.17 10:49:00 - [1]
 

Why there are minmatar ships (Typhoon, Tempest, Hurricane) which armor tank? Wouldnt it be better when all minmatar ships were shield tank oriented? All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship. Typhoon and Tempest have already more shield hp than armor. So why not make them proper shield tankers, by giving them more midslots than lows?

I see a lot of benefits there:
- no need to train armor tank skills
- minmatar low dps weapons would be better utilized, because you can now use lowslots for damage mods
- free lowslots for speedmods (speedtank)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 10:54:00 - [2]
 

it's part of what makes us special.

And part of what makes flying minmatar fun!

For intance I armor tank hurricane so I can use webs and stuff in the mids.
OR!
I shield tank and go for full gank in the lows!

there is a "better" tank but minmatar ships get to mix it up.

some ships like a huggin are armor tank only as they use Webs in the mids and can't use a tank there. so we built them with armor over shields.


a great example is the wolf and jag.

One is shield tank.
one is armor.

One is great for speed and EW
One is great for gank and hp buffer.

I love being minmatar.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 10:58:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:09:19
Originally by: Zubakis
All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship.



Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
Panther
Wolf
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond

some times taking back a ships shield will let that ship armor tank to full and then wait for more cap. it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:08:00 - [4]
 

Minmatar armor tanking sucks. The only think you can do is attempt to get the target at an inconvenient range for them or you'll be outtanked and outganked.

Depending so much on range makes it hard to web so they don't go back to the gate. If you do, they'll web you and you might end up their prey. If you don't they can run away whenever they please.

Face anything with missiles, you are screwed up. Face anything with umm.. 30 km optimal, you are screwed up.

Minmatar sucks quite a bit. But ah well.

NoNah
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:11:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Minmatar armor tanking sucks. The only think you can do is attempt to get the target at an inconvenient range for them or you'll be outtanked and outganked.

Depending so much on range makes it hard to web so they don't go back to the gate. If you do, they'll web you and you might end up their prey. If you don't they can run away whenever they please.

Face anything with missiles, you are screwed up. Face anything with umm.. 30 km optimal, you are screwed up.

Minmatar sucks quite a bit. But ah well.


Except for missileships, what does not suffer from what you just described?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Minmatar armor tanking sucks. The only think you can do is attempt to get the target at an inconvenient range for them or you'll be outtanked and outganked.

Depending so much on range makes it hard to web so they don't go back to the gate. If you do, they'll web you and you might end up their prey. If you don't they can run away whenever they please.

Face anything with missiles, you are screwed up. Face anything with umm.. 30 km optimal, you are screwed up.

Minmatar sucks quite a bit. But ah well.


you mean anything trying to hit a minmatar ship with missiles means the missiles will lose right?
unless you mean armor tanked.
which I have basicly found that those ships are not set up to actully even armor tank.
they are set up to go full speed and damage forget the tank at home and fill those mids with EW!


Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:12:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon

Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships


Saying a rapier or a hyena or a hound armor tank is plainly ridiculous.
Originally by: MotherMoon

it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.


Missiles don't use cap either, have better dps, flight time is irrelevant at close range, and minmatar capacitor is laughable compared with races that do use cap for firing.

NateX
Followers of Yrck
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:13:00 - [8]
 

Typhoon with 8/7/4 would be NICE!

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:14:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Vale

Face anything with missiles, you are screwed up. Face anything with umm.. 30 km optimal, you are screwed up.


For clarity sake: Face anything with them armed with missiles.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:14:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:09:19
Originally by: Zubakis
All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship.



Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
Panther
Wolf
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond

some times taking back a ships shield will let that ship armor tank to full and then wait for more cap. it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.



Not that I disagree that many Minmatar tech 2 ships armor tank, but... you would armor tank a Vagabond????

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:18:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: ry ry on 17/01/2008 11:18:20
Quote:

hyena


people tank these?

NoNah
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: MotherMoon

Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships


Saying a rapier or a hyena or a hound armor tank is plainly ridiculous.
Originally by: MotherMoon

it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.


Missiles don't use cap either, have better dps, flight time is irrelevant at close range, and minmatar capacitor is laughable compared with races that do use cap for firing.



So your point is... ?
One of minmatars main strenghts is speed, plain and simple hitn'run tactics. You have however yet to answer my previous question. Yes, matari got less cap than other races - and they need less of it. Something tells me you've never flown Amarr or you wouldn't be preaching for the lack of cap among minmatar?

Missiles are great, but quite static. You can't do much to alter their effect. Painters and webs thats it. AC's just got a tad more to it.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:19:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/01/2008 11:22:02
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Minmatar armor tanking sucks. The only think you can do is attempt to get the target at an inconvenient range for them or you'll be outtanked and outganked.



Well, that's how Minmatar fly. Although I see no problem with gank power of Minmatar ships, especially double-damage bonus ones.

Originally by: MotherMoon

Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
...
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond



Er, what? Armour tanking Hyena? Rapier/Huggin? Stealth bomber (SB tanking, lol)? Vagabond, armour tanking?!?

Edit: I will almost always take a AC ship over a missile ship. Guns are so much more fun, really, and can do a number of things missiles can't.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:20:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:23:02
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:09:19
Originally by: Zubakis
All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship.



Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
Panther
Wolf
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond

some times taking back a ships shield will let that ship armor tank to full and then wait for more cap. it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.



Not that I disagree that many Minmatar tech 2 ships armor tank, but... you would armor tank a Vagabond????


passively Laughing

what?

and yeah if I HAD to tank my henya :P
you know for running PVE.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:22:00 - [15]
 

hmm but still last time I checked all of those "armor/speed tanked ships lol at missles.

the missles explosion velocity is far to sow for most minmatar speed tanked ships.
hell any races speed tanked ships.

ever fight a bomber a jag? the missiles don't touch the jag with a MWD on.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:26:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:23:02
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:09:19
Originally by: Zubakis
All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship.



Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
Panther
Wolf
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond

some times taking back a ships shield will let that ship armor tank to full and then wait for more cap. it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.



Not that I disagree that many Minmatar tech 2 ships armor tank, but... you would armor tank a Vagabond????


passively Laughing

what?

and yeah if I HAD to tank my henya :P
you know for running PVE.



Well, generally a Vagabond uses its lows for speed and damage mods, and puts 1-2 large shield extenders in the mids for buffer.

NoNah
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:28:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
hmm but still last time I checked all of those "armor/speed tanked ships lol at missles.

the missles explosion velocity is far to sow for most minmatar speed tanked ships.
hell any races speed tanked ships.

ever fight a bomber a jag? the missiles don't touch the jag with a MWD on.



Nor does the guns, invalid point really. And most speedtanks require lows for Overdrives, iStabs and nanos - which means you'd be flying a halfarsed nano halfarsed armortank with very low damage. Instead you could put on a decent shield buffert or tank(Vaga, Sleipnir) and let the lows go to speed mods and damage mods.

There are however ships that do way better with an armor tank, such as the tempest, an AC-tempest is the nightmare of quite a few ships around here, especially those revolving around capwarfare.

Zubakis
The Carebear Stare
Hydroponic Zone
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:28:00 - [18]
 

From the roleplaying view:

How can a Scimitar help an armor tanked minmatar ship?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.17 11:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zubakis
From the roleplaying view:

How can a Scimitar help an armor tanked minmatar ship?



yeah I guess my point was more no tank.
meaning a scimitar helping a..... DISCOPHOON would be great because the scimitar ignores the discophoons speed!

come on guys I'm joking around, the real fact is minmatar ships are crazy like that.
and I think most minmatar pilots like having all sorts of weird ships.

I mean I've never seen a whine about how the hurricane was armor tanked before.
but I don't see how some extra training time makes them bad ship, it jsut makes minmatar ships harder to use.

I mean hell the typhoon has better drone bay space than a mega. so now you need drone skills too.

I guess I ust posted out a list of everyhting I could of think of not shield tanked.
which I guess it then end isn't many.

don't take away our thing.

Mentat Market
Posted - 2008.01.17 18:03:00 - [20]
 

Well I have to say any Minmatar ship that is better at tanking armor that is smaller then a BS well I say don't tank it or speed tank it i mean look at the
vaga speed tank:
rupture full out gank in the lows:
Wolf put some tracking enhancers on that thing and watch ceptors go boom.

For the BS's well Phoon is such a bastardized ship I don't know anyone who flies them seriously the pest well the utility of the mids is great.

And going back to the original op of why they all shouldn't be shield tanked should read what minmatar are supposed to be. Fast and customizable so you have to train speed/shield/Armor for tank and projectile/missile/drones for damage we don't get the benefit of only having one specific thing to train.

Enkilil
Minmatar
Thirteen Ninety Three
Posted - 2008.01.17 18:13:00 - [21]
 

I like the versatility of Minnie ships just fine the way it is...
FFS it's posts like this that boof it up for the rest of us once a dev runs out of ideas and decides to make all Minnie ships shield tankers.

LURK MOAR.


Captain Schmungles
Caldari
Freelancing Corp
Confederation of Independent Corporations
Posted - 2008.01.18 05:45:00 - [22]
 

Part of flying Minmatar is accepting that you really don't tank, unless you're flying a command ship. As has been said numerous times, flying Minmatar is like going down a flight of stairs in a wheelchair firing an uzi.

Yargo Metash
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.01.18 06:54:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Yargo Metash on 18/01/2008 06:54:40
Originally by: Zubakis
Why there are minmatar ships (Typhoon, Tempest, Hurricane) which armor tank?



I can't speak for the Typhoon, but I know quite a few people who Shield Tank the Tempest/Hurricane up. Heck, my passive shield tanked Rupture was awesome for lvl 2 missions! Yay for customizability! YARRRR!!

Edit: Just have to not mind it moving like a flying wedge of cheese.

Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar
54th Knights Templar
THORN Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.18 07:17:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 18/01/2008 07:27:21
Quote:
From the roleplaying view:

How can a Scimitar help an armor tanked minmatar ship?


If you shield rep an armor tanked ship, the shield hitpoints don't just bounce off and give you 'ERROR WRONG TANK TYPE' messages.. it still lowers the overall damage the ship is tanking (especially if the ship firing on them is using explosive to eat through that armor).
In my opinion, shield logistics are more versatile than armor because they can help both shield and armor tankers. Armor logistics are incredibly powerful for armor tankers, but useless for shield tankers.

Not to mention the tracking bonus it can provide, HUGE help for min ships with t2 ammo.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.01.18 07:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: MotherMoon
Edited by: MotherMoon on 17/01/2008 11:09:19
Originally by: Zubakis
All minmatar T2 ship line is shield tank oriented: excellent resists on shields, shield boost bonuses, shield transfer logistic ship.



Armor tanking Tech 2 minmatar ships
Panther
Wolf
Heyna
Rappier
Huggin
Hound(kinda)
vagabond

some times taking back a ships shield will let that ship armor tank to full and then wait for more cap. it's great being minmatar because our weapons don't use cap so you shield remote at around 50% cap on the target and then that target gets to wait for cap to come back while using all his weapons.

lowest dps maybe but who cares we don't use cap.
plus nice falloff range.



Not that I disagree that many Minmatar tech 2 ships armor tank, but... you would armor tank a Vagabond????
Actually i think this was the idea ccp had when they made that ship,however it progressed to an active shield tank...Then passive after the boost.

As to the OP,although it adds more to train minmatar are one thing...VERSATILE,even with their tanks.

Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.01.18 09:16:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Hannobaal
you would armor tank a Vagabond????
Actually i think this was the idea ccp had when they made that ship,


Why? Because it has a lot of low slots? Don't you think its speed bonus is a good hint as to what those low slots are meant to be used for?

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.18 10:13:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 10:13:20
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: goodby4u
Actually i think this was the idea ccp had when they made that ship,


Why? Because it has a lot of low slots? Don't you think its speed bonus is a good hint as to what those low slots are meant to be used for?


LOL, not only that, but if you look at the resists, it effectively has two hardeners in-built for shields while armour would require patching two preety big holes, and waste the ship's speed and gun bonuses.

I would sooner say the Vaga is intended to originally fit a ton of gyrostabs and speed mods, just by looking at the bonuses ;)

Pac SubCom
True Creation
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2008.01.18 10:25:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Pac SubCom on 18/01/2008 10:26:17
Originally by: Hannobaal

Why? Because it has a lot of low slots? Don't you think its speed bonus is a good hint as to what those low slots are meant to be used for?


"As much firepower as humanely possible", and speed/agility/fitting. All Minnie Battleships have more shield than armor hp, Minmatar starting characters have shield skills, not armor skills, Logistics do shield transfer. The plot thickens, and not only for t2 ships.

Although Minmatar need to go in at times when Amarr tracking disruptors get the better of their artillery. Hence, autocannons + armor tanking (70% EM resists)

Raxxius Maelstrom
Posted - 2008.01.18 10:40:00 - [29]
 

Matar ships are a mixed bag, some shield tank, others armour tank, a few can do both.

However I've got to say that all Matar T2 ships should be designed for shield tanking.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.18 11:15:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/01/2008 11:16:46
Originally by: Pac SubCom

"As much firepower as humanely possible", and speed/agility/fitting. All Minnie Battleships have more shield than armor hp, Minmatar starting characters have shield skills, not armor skills, Logistics do shield transfer. The plot thickens, and not only for t2 ships.

Although Minmatar need to go in at times when Amarr tracking disruptors get the better of their artillery. Hence, autocannons + armor tanking (70% EM resists)


Well, many Minmatar T1 ships do a way better job at armour tanking then shield tanking. You have to take into account that many Minmatar ships do in fact have more lows then mids; in fact, have too little mids to do a good job at shield tanking. That's not even counting the fact you need a MWD + distruptor on any minmatar ship (and a webber would be nice, but won't really fit on a shield tanker), and at least three midslots (+1 low for the DC) if you expect to take any serious hits.

However, all Minmatar T1 do worse at armour tanking then gallente, beacuse, ignoring rep amount bonuses on some gallente ships, you have the issue of the 70% EM resist (and worse other resists).

In the T1 line-up, Cyclone/Maelstorm/Stabber/Bellicose are obvious exceptions and make sense only shield-tanked really, wether by using extenders or active, of course.

On the other side, Hurricane/Typhoon/Tempest/Rupture/Rifter are obvious armour tankers; too few midslots for a serious shield tank (the Tempest *could* run a weak shield+hull tank. Web is a problem, though, unless you want to make a comedy setup). All of these ships have significantly more lows then mids.

These ships do good with either a active or a plate armour tank (Rifters, after all, must have a plate. Cramming a SAR is optional although I really like it). Rupture definitely wants a plate too, since you don't have cap to run a rep for any serious amount of time anyway.

T2 line, is, of course, quite obvious; shield tank, unless you're flying a Wolf which doesn't have mids for a shield tank unless in a total comedy setup.

However, for T1 Minmatar, you need both shield and armour skills to really make the best use of all the ships. If you look at all the ships including T2, then yes, they slightly gravitate towards shield tanks. However, some of the armour-tanked T1 ships are pure awesomeness, and you absolutely need those skills.

To effectively use the Minmatar (T1) ship line-up, you will have to have preety top notch skills in both shield and armour tanking. This is good, however, because on armour-tanked ships, the "turn on your tank, you're being shot at" bar above your armour HP lasts longer, and shield-tanked ships have the longer-lasting "You did remember to turn on the DC II and overload guns, right?" bar above your hull HP if you have armour skills trained Very Happy


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