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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.01.17 14:52:00 - [421]
 

Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 17/01/2008 14:54:39
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/01/2008 13:20:42
Originally by: Lord Frost

haha... you must be one of the nano weenies. No one is nerfing speed... but we're looking for a clear change to BIG ships going faster than incterceptors.


Big ships faster then interceptors? Laughing

I think you have no clue what are you talking about. See, Semkhet up there has a 5.5km/s Sacriledge, which means it is rigged and he definitely has some implants.

A less pimped out inty can overtake 5.5km/s w/out too much hassle.

Ship speeds are quite fine with T2 gear and rigs.

Yes, they can get preety big with faction+deadspace gear/pirate implants/hardwirings. It still doesn't stop them from dying, just makes it less likely; and pimped interceptors are going to go faster assuming equal standard of fitting nomatter what, plus have actual agility to go with it, though, so the big ships comment going faster is baseless.




my inty goes 6.1km/s unrigged with the only speed implant I have being the zor's hyper one. I eft'd a hyena and right now it tops out at 4.8km/s unrigged witho only the zor's hyper implant. And while I have higher nav skills they certainly are not maxed out.

If I rig out the hyena with polycarps it gets to 6km/s
If I rig out the stilletto with polycarps it gets 8km/s

I've been playing eve since may 2007. I could fly a vagabond in less then a week but won't until I have my med guns up to t2 capability.

Now as to eve != speed. rubbish. eve = war and war = tactics. if your not using tactics it doesn't matter what you have or are flying against your gonna die. if your opponents aren't using tactics then it doesn't matter what they do your going to find a way to kill them eventually. As with any war type game speed IS one the largest factors. Without movement there is no victory. So is intelligence (read ewar). so is tank. so is gank.

This whole argument about "normal" set up being owned by a vaga or other nanoHac is like a platoon of privates complaining about being killed by a single navy seal. you don't nerf the seal to fix the problem. you train the privates.

Suboran
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.01.17 15:06:00 - [422]
 

nano ships generally have a puny tank and a raiper/huginn can easily counter them.

Rjaiajik Kajvoril
Amarr
Cloak and Daggers
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.17 15:15:00 - [423]
 

Edited by: Rjaiajik Kajvoril on 17/01/2008 15:15:36
This entire thread pisses me off... if a tactic works and is popular suddenly it's 'cheap' and needs to be 'nerfed', no you're just shit at EVE and need to either use the same tactic or find a better one. Grow up.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.17 15:58:00 - [424]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor

Now as to eve != speed. rubbish. eve = war and war = tactics. if your not using tactics it doesn't matter what you have or are flying against your gonna die. if your opponents aren't using tactics then it doesn't matter what they do your going to find a way to kill them eventually. As with any war type game speed IS one the largest factors. Without movement there is no victory. So is intelligence (read ewar). so is tank. so is gank.

This whole argument about "normal" set up being owned by a vaga or other nanoHac is like a platoon of privates complaining about being killed by a single navy seal. you don't nerf the seal to fix the problem. you train the privates.


This.

People are complaining their (sometimes slightly modified) ratting setups can't band together and kill a nano-gang, essentially.

Well, giving a bunch of peasants guns doesn't make them match a experienced, well trained and well armed fighting force. It makes them dead.

Skjorta
Posted - 2008.01.17 15:59:00 - [425]
 

Edited by: Skjorta on 17/01/2008 16:03:06
WTB Web.

Nano ships are usually paper thin and lack dps, and cost quite a lot to fit out properly.

If you can't kill them, it's not the game's fault, it's yours for thinking whatever ship you're flying should be able to kill everything.

speed = lots of tactics needed to stay alive. That IS eve. Not sitting in 1 spot and spamming f1-f8 at whatever you have locked.

Kyrial Tidolfas
Posted - 2008.01.17 16:06:00 - [426]
 

Originally by: Sky Grunthor


This whole argument about "normal" set up being owned by a vaga or other nanoHac is like a platoon of privates complaining about being killed by a single navy seal. you don't nerf the seal to fix the problem. you train the privates.


there is no way a navy seal can kill a platoon of infantries unless of course the S.E.A.L is from sparta with nanosuit and particle weaponry and the platoon is armed with pitchforks and butterknives.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.17 17:12:00 - [427]
 

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas
Originally by: Sky Grunthor


This whole argument about "normal" set up being owned by a vaga or other nanoHac is like a platoon of privates complaining about being killed by a single navy seal. you don't nerf the seal to fix the problem. you train the privates.


there is no way a navy seal can kill a platoon of infantries unless of course the S.E.A.L is from sparta with nanosuit and particle weaponry and the platoon is armed with pitchforks and butterknives.


I tend to be normal and call in a napalm airstrike.

or lobbing a couple of HE frag grenades.


or a thermobaric bomb.

Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.01.17 17:33:00 - [428]
 

Eh, Like I said. The issue is somewhere in between. There is MOST CERTAINLY a problem with speed in this game.

Those who deny it are the morons without a set of nuts who feel it is their god given right to OMG WTF PWN BBQ SOLO KILL!!!! everything in sight, with not much risk to themself. This groups valid excuse is "OMF GOD!?!?! You dont fly a Huggin?!?! NOOB!" They all suck IMO, and I hope they all loose their snakes.

The flip side, are the clueless wonder jockies who cry, whine, and in general blubber about getting ****d on the forums, because they lack any creativity to find a solution to the problem. These same people usually cry about getting ganked in high sec, and pirate gate camps, because they are a bunch of wussies. They generally tend to feel they should be able to counter ANY tactic, regardless of fitting. "What? 10 battleships are headed this way? CHARGE UP THE MINING LASERS!" only to go get trashed and then complain about it.

Is speed broke? Yes. Is it anywhere NEAR as broke as half these people would have you believe? Hell no. I would personally nerf polycarbons. and toss on a stacking penalty maybe if that isnt good enough.


Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.01.17 17:37:00 - [429]
 

Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas
Originally by: Sky Grunthor


This whole argument about "normal" set up being owned by a vaga or other nanoHac is like a platoon of privates complaining about being killed by a single navy seal. you don't nerf the seal to fix the problem. you train the privates.


there is no way a navy seal can kill a platoon of infantries unless of course the S.E.A.L is from sparta with nanosuit and particle weaponry and the platoon is armed with pitchforks and butterknives.


lol... now that would be neat to see... however whatever the example may be the point is a valid one. Greater training and tactics will out over the lack of that training and tactics regardless of numbers. Maybe my exampls should be a squad rather than a platoon. although the average joe (me) will recognize the point of the example more readily with the use of "platoon" over the use of "squad"

Donna Maria
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.17 17:38:00 - [430]
 

Speed is the result of skill training, ISK, and fittings. IF you are going too slow, get someone faster to help out. If you cant do that, or cant get a ship more suited to killing a speedytanker, then your SOL (Go play WOW and give me your stuff..)

BTW. Rapiers, Huggins, Curse, all are evil to speedfits.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.01.17 17:53:00 - [431]
 

Originally by: Turin
I would personally nerf polycarbons. and toss on a stacking penalty maybe if that isnt good enough.



Polycarbons are already stack penalized with themselves and nanos. Just sayin'.

Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.01.17 18:22:00 - [432]
 

Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Turin
I would personally nerf polycarbons. and toss on a stacking penalty maybe if that isnt good enough.



Polycarbons are already stack penalized with themselves and nanos. Just sayin'.


na, I know. I would reduce the speed polys give you. Its a straight up nerf to polycarbs. but the stacking penalties dont include snakes right? I would make sure that isnt the case.

John Blackthorn
Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.17 18:49:00 - [433]
 

I agree with the original poster 100%. Yes, ceptors and the small ships should be fast and able to go fast but not insane speeds.. And hac, b.s. doing 3000 m/s and faster is just bad for the game. You put mwd and nanos and get a b.s. up to 1000 m/s/ well ok thats not bad. but 3k 5k? common.. basicly thers no use to fielding tank ships anymore because you can't hit the nano gangs. Your only choice is to nano up yourself.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.01.17 19:10:00 - [434]
 

Edited by: Dianeces on 17/01/2008 19:10:40
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Turin
I would personally nerf polycarbons. and toss on a stacking penalty maybe if that isnt good enough.



Polycarbons are already stack penalized with themselves and nanos. Just sayin'.


na, I know. I would reduce the speed polys give you. Its a straight up nerf to polycarbs. but the stacking penalties dont include snakes right? I would make sure that isnt the case.



Polycarbons (by themselves) don't affect your speed. Snakes, overdrive injectors, and auxiliary thrusters affect overall speed, i.e. how fast you go without an AB/MWD. Nanos and polycarbons on the other hand affect the mass of a ship, which helps with acceleration and increases the effect that AB/MWD give. Just as traditional tanks have more than one aspect determining how strong they are (resistances and raw hitpoints repped per second), there is not just one aspect of speed tanking. In fact, it could be argued from a mechanics standpoint that speed tanking is more difficult than traditional tanks, as you need to have a good base speed, low mass for good boosts from your propulsion mod, and good agility to help hold an orbit against solo targets or for good handling in fights where you have to manually pilot. There is nothing more frustrating than losing a target because you couldn't hold a stable enough orbit to keep a point on him.

Fake edit: It occurs to me that cap sustainability is another factor shared by both traditional tanks and speed tanking. Rather than rewrite my whole post, I'll add it down here.

Real edit: I can't spell.

Akion Noscire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.01.17 19:11:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Lord Frost
...and beat it like a dead horse.


I've read every single post on this thread and I still can't reach a decision...

Why would you want to beat a dead horse?

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.01.17 19:45:00 - [436]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/01/2008 19:56:42

Velocity Bonus
Module:
Overdrive Injector System II
Velocity Modifier 20%

Rig:
Auxiliary Thrusters I
Velocity Modifier 10%


Mass Reduction
Module:
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Mass Reduction 12,5%

Rig:
Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Mass Reduction 15%


Notice something?
What a great idea to rebalance overpowered speed modules (old nanofibers/i-stabs) and then introduce rigs. Especially one rig which is even better than T2 - on a critical attribute (mass reduction was one of the main reasons the old speed mods got rebalanced and reduced in effectiveness).
Just a quick reminder: most rigs are worse than T2 modules, and should be (those which aren't, or exhibit no/negligible penalties are the popular ones).
What was it again? Small modifications, eh? Right..

Everyone Dies
Caldari
Posted - 2008.01.17 20:31:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/01/2008 19:56:42

Velocity Bonus
Module:
Overdrive Injector System II
Velocity Modifier 20%

Rig:
Auxiliary Thrusters I
Velocity Modifier 10%


Mass Reduction
Module:
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Mass Reduction 12,5%

Rig:
Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Mass Reduction 15%


Notice something?
What a great idea to rebalance overpowered speed modules (old nanofibers/i-stabs) and then introduce rigs. Especially one rig which is even better than T2 - on a critical attribute (mass reduction was one of the main reasons the old speed mods got rebalanced and reduced in effectiveness).
Just a quick reminder: most rigs are worse than T2 modules, and should be (those which aren't, or exhibit no/negligible penalties are the popular ones).
What was it again? Small modifications, eh? Right..


Thread won.

StaringAtUrAss
Posted - 2008.01.18 01:24:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: Awox
Originally by: Hul'ka
Nono is in most cases used for solo, and small gang roamings. And since we canít see whatís on the other side of the gate you arenít stupid if you fall into X man gatecamp.

Yust say no dude. Say no to the death of solo/small gang pvp. Say no to expendable alts for solo/small gang pvp. Say no to stupid people in 10+ gangs with all of them in RR battleships that whine when a vaga gets away. Say no to EW/recon ships that whine every time vaga gets away.


Let me tell you Sir, I don't know if you are old enough to remember, but solo and small gang PvP was in a better state before Polycarb rigs were introduced. That has got to say something.

Just say no dude. Say no to the death of an intelligent game. Say no to everyone flying overdrives and nanos for solo/small gang pvp. Say no to stupid people in 10+ gangs all of them in PC/OD cruisers that warp as soon as anything threatening shows up. Say no to pilots who aren't clever enough to play without polycarbs fit on everything..


Can't agree more.
Since the idiots of EVE are incapable of flying anything other than the 100 mil immunity fit (snakes/rogues not required or essential) just like when -probably the same bunch of ****tards that poly/overdrive their ships- everyone used to fit up dual wcs to their pvp ships before ccp realized how imbalanced it was.

It's an imbalanced system that CCP needs to neuter. All the forum trolls and poly*****s screaming that it's perfect need to have their gene-pool irradiated, chlorinated and be forcibly castrated with rusty spoons and recycled into soylent brown wafers.

How is it balanced when fleets of 50+ hacs are all doing a minimum of 4000m/s? Forget the 9km/s snaked vagabond pilots that have to run after 2 minutes and go so fast they can't hit anything, chief problem is polycarbs give too great a bonus and there isn't a stacking penalty; secondary problem is ODJ's giving too much bonus and no stacking penalty.

The problem is further compounded by missiles doing incredibly low damage and turrets not hitting at all. Drones capable of doing high damage have no chance in hell of killing a nano-hac much less a gang of them. Nano-hacs slip out of web range too easily so that's not a practical "counter" because rapier/huginn have paper tank after mwd/2xWeb/Scram/LSEII/INV, they don't hold their cap well with that mwd running to gtfo to 24-25km.

Simply put, if CCP wants to keep the idiot 100mil immunity fit, they need a proper counter that affects the MWD velocity bonus or bloats their mass so that their speed can be countered effectively. And before some troll pipes up about Painter bloating the sig making nano-hac's easy to hit... stfu noob, you don't know squat. Painters are the worst ewar system -period -not even huginns/rapier use them.

NERF or just delete polycarbons from the database and put in a stiffer stacking penalty or increase cap per MWD activation for each ODJ added.

Good night, Goodbye eve. To all the nano-***ging trolls -f0b off.


btw -I am StaringAtUrAss...

Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
Farlight Council
Elitist Cowards
Posted - 2008.01.18 01:51:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: StaringAtUrAss
* snip* It's an imbalanced system that CCP needs to neuter. All the forum trolls and poly*****s screaming that it's perfect need to have their gene-pool irradiated, chlorinated and be forcibly castrated with rusty spoons and recycled into soylent brown wafers. *snipe*


Shocked /me takes StaringAtUrAss off the list of people to ask out for a date.

StaringAtUrAss
Posted - 2008.01.18 01:56:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere
Originally by: StaringAtUrAss
* snip* It's an imbalanced system that CCP needs to neuter. All the forum trolls and poly*****s screaming that it's perfect need to have their gene-pool irradiated, chlorinated and be forcibly castrated with rusty spoons and recycled into soylent brown wafers. *snipe*


Shocked /me takes StaringAtUrAss off the list of people to ask out for a date.


I am so staring at your ass right now... wtf is this thread about?

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.01.18 02:02:00 - [441]
 

Originally by: StaringAtUrAss
chief problem is polycarbs give too great a bonus and there isn't a stacking penalty; secondary problem is ODJ's giving too much bonus and no stacking penalty.



Except they do have stacking penalties, both of them. You really should do research before you post silliness on the forums.

Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
Farlight Council
Elitist Cowards
Posted - 2008.01.18 02:08:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: StaringAtUrAss
I am so staring at your ass right now... wtf is this thread about?
Thread is about speed cowboy... And you're moving a little to quick there, I call for nerfing you.

Otherwise, I only ask for speeds to be toned down a bit.

Speed tanking is a viable tactic, however, I have yet to see an armor or shield tank be virtually immune to incoming damage. I don't care how much you try and quantify it through ISK spent.

umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2008.01.18 02:10:00 - [443]
 

Nerf polycarbs if you want, it wont really make a difference, the other speed rigs are fine, personally i dont like the cost of polys so i mix and match other stuff....

L2P plz

SiJira
Posted - 2008.01.22 22:17:00 - [444]
 

a little tweaking on the guns and missile speeds would be best

Matrixcvd
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.22 23:07:00 - [445]
 

this thread is useless and the people who think speed is broke are just as useless. If you are coming into this god awful thread head first, let me just tell you, dont listen to anyone trying to tell you speed is broke, they are clueless, pvpexperienceless, brainless, and just add some more -less to get the point.

speed is fine, its 1/4 of eve, 3/4 of eve are there for you to play learn or die. There is hardly any solowtfbbqpwnmobiles anymore. stop loosing your ratting ravens to HAC's and you would hear the end of "NERF SPEED"

Van Steiza
4 chan
Posted - 2008.01.22 23:14:00 - [446]
 

Edited by: Van Steiza on 22/01/2008 23:15:29
Speed is only usefull in a number of situations it isnt the best. I myself find myself in my armor tanking ishtar more often then my nanoed ishtar these days i pirate now I use to roam 0.0 mostly in the nanoed ishtar.


why because it was easier to get around those 20 or so jumps ud not get a fight..anyway.


we got into a fight with a newb mega and a newb cclone at a belt we couldnt kill them because we would get to close to the roids or wed get neuted or theyd kill our drones and.. so we couldnt kill them but if we did get in lose we would have won but we couldnt because we were not tanked.


Being in a nanoship doesnt mean you always win what it does do is give you the ability to run SOMETIMES.

The whole idea of speed tanking is to do with skirmish in and out fast as you can.




blah.


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