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Reash
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.24 17:25:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Eddie Gordo
Edited by: Eddie Gordo on 24/01/2008 16:58:18

Originally by: Hardin
Okay Jade, we believe you Rolling Eyes

yada yada yada....




Two things:

1) I'd like this smiley to be removed from the forums ---> Rolling Eyes <-- Its not really anything to do with this particular issue, I just take offence to its overuse.
2) I agree that the thread has run its course. But please Hardin, dont play the moral high ground game, its tired. If you want a thread to end, why not agree to disagree? Dont say "we win and nobody is allowed to discuss otherwise"


This will be my last post in the thread as at the end of the day everything has been said and the people that matter know the truth.

1) I agree, not a fan of it either.
2) I personally don't have a problem with jade not liking our standing system, thats fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion, what i do have a problem with is Jade hating the made up CVA standing system in his head and saying thats our system, which it is obviously not. Hardin simply realises that discussion is pointless, dispite numerous posts stating our stance on something, Jade simply says our stance is something else, there really is not any point speaking on the issie, our stance is what it is, no matter how much jade says otherwise.

If anybody wishes to discuss how the CVA standing system works, please, feel free to contact a CVA diplomat!

P.S CVA has made an effort to reduce the amount UK are refered to as "pirates" but at the end of the day you can understand why people would call a NBSI group pirates , we simply dont have the man power to tell everybody individually, on many occasions we have told people the history between CVA and UK.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.01.24 17:49:00 - [392]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/01/2008 17:51:53

Originally by: Reash

2) I personally don't have a problem with jade not liking our standing system, thats fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion, what i do have a problem with is Jade hating the made up CVA standing system in his head and saying thats our system, which it is obviously not.


Well the problem for you is Reash, that though the CVA and friends have endlessly posted denials and spin in an attempt to muddy the water, the reality is you haven't once disproved a single element of the accusations I make about your utilization of the standings regime in Providence.

1. CVA have a Red List that they administrate that lists their specific political enemies alongside pirates and NBSI entities.

2. CVA provide this Red List to new residents to Providence without highlighting the difference in ideology between political enemies AND said pirates.

3. The Red List is generally accepted as a KOS list to said residents and is directly responsible for neutral NRDS entities firing on other neutral NRDS entities.

4. The Red List is effectively standings enclosure both ways. Firstly it determines who MUST be set Red if one wishes to be a resident in "good standing" and gain access to Citadel and joint ops. Secondly it determines who cannot be set RED - ie, everyone else that the CVA is on good terms with, NBSI, terroristialist, pirate or what not.

5. "Neutral" residents of Providence do get the impression they are expected to attack Red's on that list.

6. Eventually all "neutrals" in Providence do attack entities on the Red List.

7. CVA itself has allies who are NBSI and do conduct acts of piracy outside of Providence.

8. CVA materially benefits from manipulating providence "neutrals" into attack its ideological foes by lumping them in with pirates and random NBSI threats.

Quote:
Hardin simply realises that discussion is pointless, dispite numerous posts stating our stance on something, Jade simply says our stance is something else, there really is not any point speaking on the issie, our stance is what it is, no matter how much jade says otherwise.


Neither Hardin nor yourself (nor indeed any other commentator on the CVA side) is actually discussing anything. You are simply repeating a pre-prepared propaganda stance which your enemies choose not to believe. Thats why the discussion seems endless because you are trying to bully your point across to an audience that (unlike the Providence residents) cannot be bullied in this way. You are trying to force your opinions on freedom-fighters and free-thinkers who have learned to be deeply cynical about your words and tactics. In this forum which is specifically tasked to political discussion and debate your ordinary tactics of PR and spin are ineffective. Hence the frustration that Hardin feels that he cannot effectively get his point across. The natural response for a bully who is faced down in this way is to leave the field. QED.

Quote:
P.S CVA has made an effort to reduce the amount UK are refered to as "pirates" but at the end of the day you can understand why people would call a NBSI group pirates , we simply dont have the man power to tell everybody individually, on many occasions we have told people the history between CVA and UK.


You do however have the ability to split your Red List between genuine "pirates" and specific political enemies who fight the CVA on ideological/roleplay grounds. The fact you choose not to do this simply proves you consider it too beneficial to continue the practice of misrepresenting your enemies as "pirates" in order to better manipulate "neutrals" into attacking neutrals and making others fight your wars for you.

Reash this is a discussion forum for discussing politics. Thats what I'm using it for. If you find you cannot counter the points I raise in an honest discussion then the general CAOD public is going to conclude that you are simply in the wrong.

Conlin
Gallente
LangToun
Posted - 2008.01.24 18:09:00 - [393]
 

Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00
Originally by: Tharrn
But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them.

After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways.




They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from .
That is fact no denying it .
Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?.
Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 .
What was his excuse ?.

Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.01.24 19:11:00 - [394]
 

Ok, one last thing. I accept that to the eyes of someone entering Providence without being aware of its history UK's policy looks like NBSI. That's why UK pilots are supposed to explain the background. OOC no problem with that. I am also aware that CVA has lately reduced the use of the label "pirate" towards UK and I appreciate.

I only think that you should take the effort of being true to yourself and to your allies (or neuts). Whatever you think of SF they have a point there that is worth thinking about. They are NRDS and they get shot at (a lot) because of CVA standings regime. And these are people who are not in any conflict towards SF except that SF opposes the ruling power in providence and they want to play nice with it. Providence is not free space as long as it is like this. My two cents.

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.01.24 19:15:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Conlin
Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00
Originally by: Tharrn
But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them.

After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways.




They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from .
That is fact no denying it .
Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?.
Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 .
What was his excuse ?.


I dunno, I'd call Ushra'khan a pirate organization because it actively participates in gatecamps on the pipes to blast people at random for crossing the line between empire and no-sec. A few weeks ago when I entered Providence from one of the direct jumps to high sec and was annihilated by an Ushra'khan and Terra Incognita (a pretty blatantly piratical alliance) gatecamp, what exactly was your motivation? A lone DMC pilot in a shuttle represented some kind of threat?

If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism?

Conlin
Gallente
LangToun
Posted - 2008.01.24 20:25:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Janu Hull
Originally by: Conlin
Edited by: Conlin on 24/01/2008 18:18:00
Originally by: Tharrn
But you ARE pirates to most Providence residents who do not care about your motivation to shoot them and only about THAT you shoot them.

After all it was you who announced 'everyone who's not for us is against us in Providence'. Reap -> sow. I really don't understand what you guys are complaining about - your RP reasons are valid, but you'll have to deal with the fact that people won't like your behaviour anyways.




They only called us pirates when CVA & friends started shouting it, in local .Thats were it originated from .
That is fact no denying it .
Now you try to justify the terminology of pirate in our direction with ,dont shoot them they wont call you a pirate ?.
Well Ive heard some pretty lame excuses in the past , but cmon , just the other day a CVA called me a pirate in G5 .
What was his excuse ?.


I dunno, I'd call Ushra'khan a pirate organization because it actively participates in gatecamps on the pipes to blast people at random for crossing the line between empire and no-sec. A few weeks ago when I entered Providence from one of the direct jumps to high sec and was annihilated by an Ushra'khan and Terra Incognita (a pretty blatantly piratical alliance) gatecamp, what exactly was your motivation? A lone DMC pilot in a shuttle represented some kind of threat?

If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism?


Freedom Fighting !!
Your use of the words terrorism and piracy are used far too loosely , but then you dont understand the full history of U'K & CVA in providence .
Wink

Flaming Noob
Amarr
Subversive Introvert Enterprises
Posted - 2008.01.24 20:27:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Janu Hull
If that wasn't piracy, what was it, terrorism?


Enclosurism.

TrevorReznik
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.01.24 20:56:00 - [398]
 

no one cares stop bumping this thread

Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.01.24 21:39:00 - [399]
 

You want to really know, Janu Hull? If yes read here. The thread has been put back a bit, IGS is very active.

You don't have to appreciate that we RP. But please be aware that it is the whole reason for UK to exist. No piracy, no NBSI, no bull****. Just RP. And we live up to it, believe it or not.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.24 22:08:00 - [400]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 24/01/2008 22:08:48
Why should the question of whether its RP that fuels your actions or not have anything to do with, well anything? All actions are IC, this whole argument is about IC things.

For that matter, why would anyone expect CVA to care if neutrals shoot their enemies for them?

The important thing is that CVA doesn't care if neutrals choose to ignore CVA's enemies.

You are attacking CVA because they have a political ideology you dont like. Good reason. Keep shooting.
CVA.

Neutrals who like the environment CVA has created in providence are shooting you because you are shooting CVA.

Its all perfectly good IC, as are the neutrals calling U'K pirates because they are being shot against CVA's laws. Thats ALL pirate means. If you shoot someone that the ruling power doesn't think you can shoot, you are a pirate IC. Thats not a bad thing, its just um a definition. Both SF and U'K are quite literally pirates from CVA's perspective.

From those who don't like CVA's perspective, on the other hand, they are not pirates at all. This is cool, would make for nice IC discussion if you people could get the absurd idea that pirate is somehow an OOC label our of your heads.

Take it IC where you can have fun with the different perspectives of it all instead of this silly discussion.

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.01.24 22:12:00 - [401]
 

Do not pyramid quote - Mitnal
Quote:


Freedom Fighting !!
Your use of the words terrorism and piracy are used far too loosely , but then you dont understand the full history of U'K & CVA in providence .
Wink


Eh, I remember it well enough, the rhetoric during those last days in 9UY were positively epic. Laughing

Like I said, its a game, I like how y'all play it, even if I do raz you for it. Cool

Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.01.24 22:13:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Kabajashi San
You want to really know, Janu Hull? If yes read here. The thread has been put back a bit, IGS is very active.

You don't have to appreciate that we RP. But please be aware that it is the whole reason for UK to exist. No piracy, no NBSI, no bull****. Just RP. And we live up to it, believe it or not.


I know ya do. And thanks for the reminder, I've been wording my posts carefully because I couldn't for the life of me remember what y'all called the 9UY station. Smile

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.25 03:13:00 - [403]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 25/01/2008 03:17:42
Originally by: Jade Constantine
We have not helped NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence. That's fact. If you are using the accusation that we do in fact help NBSI entities to shoot neutrals in Providence and using that as a basis for the willful misrepresentation of our Alliance to the providence residents through the propagation of your Red List then you are being deceitful and that is the point here.



How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence. I say almost any fool because there's clearly at least one who's still too obtuse to see it. Now I don't mean to keep harping on about the bubbles because, I frankly don't care that much. What concerns me is more how utterly and persistently full of **** you are. And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated...

No worries, I'm here to simplify things for you.Very Happy

Fact is, your efforts in Providence thus far have primarily been in support of a NBSI entity (UK) and have been aided by numerous other NBSI and/or pirate groups. Now maybe you don't go around shooting every neutral you see, but the people you associate with do. Reality is, when your name is reported alongside theirs (because you are camping gates with them)in Providence intel channels, you make yourself a target to neutrals who've been previously attacked by the company you keep. Seems to me, your real complaint isn't that "CVA made them do it", it's that no one else is willing to walk the line of your "fire on my corp, we fire on yours NRDS". I'll tell you why, and it's got nothing to do with CVA or anyone else telling anyone what to do. It's about people generally being sensible and seeing a broader perspective than your narrow mind allows.

They say:

"These SF guys roll with a nasty crowd; a crowd who shoots neutrals and wants to overturn the NRDS regime in Providence that I rather like. Can't say they've ever shot me personally, but they've shot my friends. I can see quite clearly what side of the fence they're on, and it sure as h**l isn't mine. I think I'd quite like to see that mouthy one in a pod"

And, it's as simple as that. No guns at the back, no "standings enclosurism". Just a bunch of people who've seen what you're really all about, and frankly, don't like you.

Cheers,

Lorna V

Gundano
Gallente
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.25 03:47:00 - [404]
 

Edited by: Gundano on 25/01/2008 03:50:09
Edited by: Gundano on 25/01/2008 03:49:12
Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on

Conlin
Gallente
LangToun
Posted - 2008.01.25 04:50:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 24/01/2008 22:08:48
Why should the question of whether its RP that fuels your actions or not have anything to do with, well anything? All actions are IC, this whole argument is about IC things.

For that matter, why would anyone expect CVA to care if neutrals shoot their enemies for them?

The important thing is that CVA doesn't care if neutrals choose to ignore CVA's enemies.

You are attacking CVA because they have a political ideology you dont like. Good reason. Keep shooting.
CVA.

Neutrals who like the environment CVA has created in providence are shooting you because you are shooting CVA.

Its all perfectly good IC, as are the neutrals calling U'K pirates because they are being shot against CVA's laws. Thats ALL pirate means. If you shoot someone that the ruling power doesn't think you can shoot, you are a pirate IC. Thats not a bad thing, its just um a definition. Both SF and U'K are quite literally pirates from CVA's perspective.

From those who don't like CVA's perspective, on the other hand, they are not pirates at all. This is cool, would make for nice IC discussion if you people could get the absurd idea that pirate is somehow an OOC label our of your heads.

Take it IC where you can have fun with the different perspectives of it all instead of this silly discussion.


You lost the plot once again Gaven , it was due to cva we got called pirates , and it was cva , yes even pie that were guilty of it also , its not pc anymore so you try to manipulate nuetrals and use them as a scapegoat .
Some of the old CVA still rp Gaven.
Your play on words are pathetic to say the least , oh and why do we shoot nuetrals ?.
CVA & friends use nuetral alt corps ....fact ! . Wink

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.01.25 05:25:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Lorna V

How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence.


How many neutrals die at the hands of IAC and the southern coalition allies of the CVA beyond the borders of Providence? Any fool can see that by flying alongside an NBSI entity you are encouraging their neutral shooting antics.

(its called throwing stones in glass houses LornaV - it never works out well)

Point is Bubbles are Bubbles, neutrals can get caught in bubbles of all sorts, anchored, dictor, Hics anything else. Neutrals need to take care and take responsibility for their safety sometimes. If they jump into a SF bubble SF ships will not shoot at them. UK, Sev, CVA or whoever else might.

Quote:
And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated...


Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.01.25 05:30:00 - [407]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 05:30:23
Originally by: Gundano

Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on


You do realize that Hardin suggested you Providence sorts should stop responding a page ago right? No skin off my nose obviously, but you might be damaging the "unity" of citadel channel or something.

As to your point though, Sev3rance is still wardecced by Star Fraction because you fired on one of our vessels back in the spring. If you want to apologize for the unwarranted aggression and pay for the ship loss (and can henceforth commit to remaining neutral in the dispute between SF and the CVA in Providence) we'd be happy to set you back to neutral and end the wardec.

Let me know if this is of interest to you guys.



Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.25 06:37:00 - [408]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 06:39:44
Originally by: Conlin


You lost the plot once again Gaven , it was due to cva we got called pirates , and it was cva , yes even pie that were guilty of it also , its not pc anymore so you try to manipulate nuetrals and use them as a scapegoat .
Some of the old CVA still rp Gaven.
Your play on words are pathetic to say the least , oh and why do we shoot nuetrals ?.
CVA & friends use nuetral alt corps ....fact ! . Wink


No. I think you are the one who missed the point. I understand perfectly well that CVA and its allies labeled you pirates. I fail to see the problem inherent in this.

The idea that being called pirates is somehow bad RP on CVA's part is in my opinion absurd.

It doesn't compute. You aren't called a pirate in real life, you are a pirate according to in game actions. Therefore the label is as in character as those actions were, even if the pilot calling you that does not make said distinction. If its in character, its not absolute. Its a title used to categorize and unify opposition, which makes perfect sense for the occupying power of a region to do to ALL its enemies.

So the idea that being called a pirate by CVA is CVA not RPing, seems off.

I am, frankly, sick of the OOC attacks on CVA. They are boring.

It is a bloody good drama to watch, if you can step away from it and take the titles your enemies give you with a grain of salt.

I mean really, how is it possible that being called pirate is worse than being called terrorist? Both are pejoratives given to you by your enemies for your in game actions and in character ideologies.

Instead of screaming OOC about how OOC the title is, scream IC about how you are insulted that the CVA allies would so underestimate you to think that you were "mere" pirates.

Finally, you might look up what being a pirate means. Its not some absolute. Its an entirely relative thing based on perspective. From CVA allies perspective, you are certainly a pirate and a terrorist. From your perspective you are fighting for ideals and not a pirate at all.

Being a pirate involves illegal assaults on ships according to every definition of the word I have seen that doesn't involve internet downloading. Nothing about neutral. The key word is illegal.

Illegal is a slippery word, however. It rests on concepts of right to govern and such.

So from a perspective that looks at CVA as the legal holder of the region, you are technically a pirate the second you shoot one of their ships or one of their allies ships or any neutral in their space.

From your IC perspective, you are nothing of the sort because CVA's laws themselves are illegal.

From an OOC perspective, no one is a pirate because we are all people playing a lovely game of internet spaceships.

Treat the label pirate the same way you treat the label terrorist, and take the propaganda about it IC so we can all enjoy this lovely little drama the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.25 06:52:00 - [409]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/01/2008 06:53:08

Out of interest:

Is there specific reasoning why this thread about the campaign went here rather than in the Corp and Alliance Summit?

I understand why it didnt go in the IGS, but why not the IC version of this forum?

It seems to me that the same opening posts in a context to which CVA could have responded IC would have seen far more interesting rhetoric.

It seems a waste of some of the posters on both sides talent with words to have to handicap themselves by taking away their ability to respond with the actual reasons that drive operation deliverance and the operations against CVA. All of these conflicts are politically motivated, after all, and as we are talking RP corps, politically motivated=IC.


Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:01:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 05:30:23
Originally by: Gundano

Jade just admit (to save another 14 pages) that this has nothing to do with role playing or politics. The only thing holding your war dec in place is an effort to save face and maintain dignity with a hint of pride. We all see it regardless of what side we are on


You do realize that Hardin suggested you Providence sorts should stop responding a page ago right? No skin off my nose obviously, but you might be damaging the "unity" of citadel channel or something.

As to your point though, Sev3rance is still wardecced by Star Fraction because you fired on one of our vessels back in the spring. If you want to apologize for the unwarranted aggression and pay for the ship loss (and can henceforth commit to remaining neutral in the dispute between SF and the CVA in Providence) we'd be happy to set you back to neutral and end the wardec.

Let me know if this is of interest to you guys.





I think I can take the liberty of speaking for all of Sev3rance just this once, and say NOT F****** INTERESTED.

Lorna V

Lorna V
Minmatar
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:11:00 - [411]
 

Edited by: Lorna V on 25/01/2008 10:16:05
Edited by: Lorna V on 25/01/2008 10:13:36
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Lorna V

How many neutrals died while trapped in large bubbles anchored by your corp for the use of Ushra'Khan? Almost any fool can see that that is you helping an NBSI entity shoot neutrals in Providence.


How many neutrals die at the hands of IAC and the southern coalition allies of the CVA beyond the borders of Providence? Any fool can see that by flying alongside an NBSI entity you are encouraging their neutral shooting antics.

(its called throwing stones in glass houses LornaV - it never works out well)

Point is Bubbles are Bubbles, neutrals can get caught in bubbles of all sorts, anchored, dictor, Hics anything else. Neutrals need to take care and take responsibility for their safety sometimes. If they jump into a SF bubble SF ships will not shoot at them. UK, Sev, CVA or whoever else might.

Quote:
And, what baffles me more is your belief that the only way neutrals would want to shoot you in Providence is if CVA made them. You build it up as though Providence were Stalingrad and a CVA gang were waiting next door to shoot neutrals who refuse to fight. Even more implausibly, you perceive this imaginary plot to be centered around you. How overly complicated...


Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point.



I'll remind you mine was a post in response to a) your claim not to have helped NBSI entities shoot neutrals in Providence and b) to express amusement at your self-indulgent, egoistic reasoning regarding why neutrals shoot you in Providence (i.e. Because CVA makes themCrying or Very sad).

In response, you compare being allied with a group who is NBSI in their own space, but operates as NRDS in Providence, to anchoring bubbles for the use of an NBSI group (and on at least two occasions which I witnessed first hand, anchored the bubble solely for the use of Ushra'khan with no SF combat ships remaining). Can I just say how funny a thing it is that you claim that isn't helping an NBSI group shoot neutrals; how clearly it exposes your B-grade rhetoric for what it is? No glass, no house. Just bad logic and an inapproriate phrase. A smart person would have just said, "yeah, okay, I guess sometimes we do, but we generally try to avoid it." That wouldn't have been true, but it would have been a defensible answer. But, not you Jade. You're like a little kid who everyone knows is lying, and thinks it makes a difference that no one can quite prove it. What you, and that little kid fail to recognize, is that EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. And, the bit about Dreamy being MADE to shoot you guys, well... 1)refer to my last post, and 2)to prove your point you'd have to prove your statement. All you did was say something (i.e. CVA made Dreamy do itCrying or Very sad). That's not an argument at all.

Regardless, do you realize how ridiculous it is to even suggest that he shouldn't have? It was your corp that first war dec'd CVA afterall and THEY ARE OUR ALLIES. They wouldn't need to make us shoot you anymore than they've made all the neutrals in Providence shoot at you. The only reason he wouldn't have fought alongside his allies would be if he subscribed to your overwrought brand of NRDS. But, no one cares about your stupid brand of NRDS because well frankly, it's stupid. Get used to nobody caring and stop crying about it. I fail to see what your point is with any of this. Exposing CVA as "evil tyrants"? To prove they're "not really NRDSCrying or Very sad? Everyone who lives in Providence knows better, and I doubt anyone else really cares. Yes, Jade, you are right, CVA does not appear to subscribe to your numpty brand of NRDS. Neither does anyone else.

Cheers,

Lorna V

duckmonster
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:23:00 - [412]
 

Edited by: duckmonster on 25/01/2008 10:23:53
CVA , is it ok, if I respect the NRDS thing and all, if I come bike riding in providence to shoot star fraction?

Not the goons, just me.

Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.01.25 10:44:00 - [413]
 

Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 10:51:25
To be honest, Gavrin, we disagree on that and will probably continue to do so. It has been discussed forth and back I think. "Pirate" is a term that most neuts with no insight to the RP background will understand as negative and in most cases OOC. "Terrorist" or "Slaver" is a term that anybody will understand as RP term. That's the whole point I think.

Yeah I know of your famous doctrine that everything is RP. I just think it's false. You have to stay true to your story and have some respect for the ones on the other side of the story. That's all.

But I'll say again: For the current type of politics UK practices in Providence (and not Eve-wide may I remind Sev) it is ok, I can live with it. SF is a different story I think. They are NRDS in every part of Eve. Plain and simple. That's why the list is bogus in my eyes when you have SF on it but not IAC. It's a list of enemies of the CVA and not a list of bad people. I know some of you already said that here in this thread, the problem is that you don't communicate it as such ingame. My problem with that to be precise.

/edit: The name is UNITY, Janu Hull, and it will be praised in the legends of the Matari people until the end of times. Cool

Kretin Arnon
Amarr
Path of the Immortals
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:00:00 - [414]
 

Dang, even though I am very hostile towards the CVA "IC", this thread is really making me want to go to Providence and shoot at SF and UK for "OOC" reasons.ugh

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:10:00 - [415]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/01/2008 11:10:13

I agree that in IC terms, the CVA would see the U'K as pirates, as they fit the dictionary definition of it pretty accurately. I also agree that the U'K would not see themselves as pirates either IC or OOC.

Consider the case of Sir Francis Drake. As well as playing bowls while the Spanish Armada got caught up in a storm, he and his friends attacked Spanish merchant shipping in the Caribbean. He was considered a privateer by the British, but a pirate by the Spanish. It all boils down to perspective and to semantics.

Now, in Eve, the word pirate has specific unsavoury OOC connotations attached to it, in that it describes a certain NRDS play style that the U'K do not necessarily use. I can therefore completely understand why they don't like being described as such.

Perhaps if they were described as corsairs or buccaneers the U'K would have fewer OOC objections?


Is forporn
Minmatar
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
Posted - 2008.01.25 11:32:00 - [416]
 

I like fighting

Snakester
Caldari
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.01.25 12:27:00 - [417]
 

Edited by: Snakester on 25/01/2008 12:35:29
Edited by: Snakester on 25/01/2008 12:28:48
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Sev3rance shot at SF because the CVA made you. Your pilot Dreamy fired on a Star Fraction vessel because the CVA reported our pilot as a "pirate" presence in Providence. Previous to that engagement we had Sev3rance neutral with no history of aggression either way. It does rather prove my point.


History lesson.

OK, in Tash Murkon theres a pocket of lowsec systems, we call them Sukanan (there constellation name), this was our home before we moved out, b4 us (i beleive as i was not present) Legion of Spoon resided there and kept the place rather well free of pirates for the mission runners and miners, this worked well because on some (most) days there was 50+ ppl in the main mission system. MLH and Pigs lived there also, getting on brilliantly with Spoon, and forging freindships that run deep, now my understanding is spoon moved to be mostly 0.0, pigs and mlh took up the mantle of keeping the systems pirate free, hence sev3rance was born, as an NRDS/anti pirate entity.


Now onto this act, it is in my eyes your pilot would not of been shot at by anyone in -7- unless (A)He was piratng. or (B)He was shooting at a freindly.Now both of us will (and have) banged our heads against eachother over this countless times, and we agree to disagree.We cannot disprove eachothers arguments as u say u 100% beleive your pilot and i 100% beleive my case so thats a gibbon.


I prefer to think it was the case (B) he was firing on a freindly to -7-, in which case our ROE comes into play, as in we protect our friends.You claiming that Dreamy asked in "The Citadel" channels (Which i add is for Providence intel, not Sukadan intel) is beyond me tbh, in the heat of battle, ships are lost in a matter of secounds, and to litterally type, then wait for a reply would take to long, we both know this, with all due respect, Dreamy would of just gone in guns blazing (as would i) if one of his friends was under attack.


Now the reason i said i think it was (B) is because u state he wouldn't of been pirating so he would of been shooting a red to u, maybe a CVA pilot in nase, in which were freinds as ive stated, the flaw in your argument is, why would he of used a providence intel channel for sukanan intel when we (at that time) never went to providence and when we had our own SUDAKAN intel channel, your argument falls short there.

So, from my findings, i beleive your war against -7- boils down to the fact u do not like us helping our friends. Where your own ROE hold u back from helping your friends if/when there flying with you and a neutral to u starts firing on your freind but DOESN'T fire on you, you cannot help, where we in -7- hold friendship to the highest regard and would just dive in there and help.I for one feel sorry for your freinds if this ever happens, and if (god forbid) we become friends and this happens and u don't help me, i'd turn my guns on youe next.

Thank you for reading, peace out.
Snake.

EDIT:- swapped domain to tash murkon, duh me :).





Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.01.25 14:00:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 14:06:59
Bucanneers, corsairs, freebooters, raparee, flibustier, forban, terrorists, subhumans, warmongers, madman, heathen, heretic, moor, pagan, infidel, paiien, you name it, I answer it. Be creative. Just keep it IC.

(Can't speak for my alliance here).

/edit: ecumer d'espace, biekanier, Freibeuter, Seeräuber, vrijbuter, kaper, zeerover, sjörövare ... There should be a latin expression too.

Gaius Kador
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.01.25 14:13:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Kabajashi San
Edited by: Kabajashi San on 25/01/2008 14:06:59
Bucanneers, corsairs, freebooters, raparee, flibustier, forban, terrorists, subhumans, warmongers, madman, heathen, heretic, moor, pagan, infidel, paiien, you name it, I answer it. Be creative. Just keep it IC.

(Can't speak for my alliance here).

/edit: ecumer d'espace, biekanier, Freibeuter, Seeräuber, vrijbuter, kaper, zeerover, sjörövare ... There should be a latin expression too.


How about dogs? ;)

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.01.25 14:39:00 - [420]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/01/2008 14:39:22
Originally by: Snakester
long post snipped for brevity
+
So, from my findings, i beleive your war against -7- boils down to the fact u do not like us helping our friends. Where your own ROE hold u back from helping your friends if/when there flying with you and a neutral to u starts firing on your freind but DOESN'T fire on you, you cannot help, where we in -7- hold friendship to the highest regard and would just dive in there and help.I for one feel sorry for your freinds if this ever happens, and if (god forbid) we become friends and this happens and u don't help me, i'd turn my guns on youe next.



What it all boils down to is you took unilateral hostile action against one of our ships Snakester. There is no twisting out of that. The reason you feel you were justified in shooting one of our ships is irrelevant to the argument. We had no previous history of mutual aggression and we were treating you as neutral. If you felt that an attack on CVA was an attack on you then thats your prerogative as indeed it is to make yourselves targets by committing aggression against our ships. Don't expect us to excuse such an attack though.

So lets drop the presence from your members that Sev3rance are the "victims" here. You chose to make us enemies the moment Dreamy decided to shoot at a SF ship. Don't complain about it when we wardec you and scourge your claimed space for four months or try to pretend to be "in the right".




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