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Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2008.01.10 01:21:00 - [1]
 

OK, I'm almost done training Barges V (finally), and soon will be able to train Exhumers.

Now, people are always saying, "Hulk is best for rock mining". But for highsec mining ops I can't really see anything about the Hulk that justifies the 10x (vs a Coveter) price tag. For 0.0 Hulk is the way to go of course since it can tank the rats, but for strictly highsec ops I just don't see it. I need two mining ships since I can't clone jump with my stuff.

Anyway.. the only thing I can see that a Hulk has over a Coveter for highsec ops is the ability to use two MLUs. I have a dedicated hauler (Mammoth w/ 36,000ish m3 space) so the increase in space on a Hulk isn't really a big deal, and I just can't justify spending 100,000,000 more ISK to get at that last little 5% of mining yield. Maybe I'm not understanding the bonuses right or something?

omiNATION
Gallente
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 01:23:00 - [2]
 

I'd actually use the hulk for high sec because of the lack of risk. covetor for ninja mining.

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2008.01.10 01:28:00 - [3]
 

I'm in the same boat, well, similar, and wondering the same thing. I'll be interested to see how this thread goes.

Paulo Damarr
Posted - 2008.01.10 01:47:00 - [4]
 

I would go with the hulk because its a lot tougher than the covetor, I wouldn't want to risk the cost of a high end mining fit (T2 modulated strips, named MLUs, rigs) on a ship not much tougher than a frigate.

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2008.01.10 02:04:00 - [5]
 

This is purely for highsec ops. No highsec rats can even scratch the paint on my Ret, let alone on a coveter that has more shields.

In wartime undocking in a barge (of any flavor / tech level) is just dumb.

MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.01.10 02:13:00 - [6]
 

Yeah the hulk can fit a much better tank and include 2x MLU II and add to that the 50m3 drone bay (twice the size of the coveter...

-High-
3x Strip II (with T2 crystals)

-Mids-
Rock scanner
Small C5-L Booster II (Gist B-type small booster is nice and cheap)
Eutectic Cap recharger
Named Invuln

-Lows-
2x MLU II

-Rigs-
2x Cargohold Optimization I (Holds 2x Full runs of the 3 miners and 5 mining drones)

So in the end its worth it just for the 2x MLU II you can fit in there.

-Drones-
5x Mining Drones II
5x Hobgoblins II

VB Sarge
New Justice
Posted - 2008.01.10 02:24:00 - [7]
 

I think the point of this thread is being totally overlooked.

The question isn't about tank and drones to take out rats with, it is a question about which is a better trade off for high sec only mining?
Spend 20mil and get a Covetor?
or
Spend 120mil and get a Hulk?

The debate I think the OP wanted was about when does the price difference stop being an issue? Say the Covetor makes 200mil in a week, and the Hulk makes 300mil? using totally made up figures for the sake of the arguement, but for the life of me I can't get the question that goes there out right...

Where is the cost effective break point? Maybe that's the question.

5 light drones and no tank modules are enough on a Retriever to fend of high sec rats, but the ability to fit a second MLU? When does that actually start to make a difference when compared with the single MLU on a Covetor? That's the question.

Giovanni F
Posted - 2008.01.10 02:59:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
OK, I'm almost done training Barges V (finally), and soon will be able to train Exhumers.

Now, people are always saying, "Hulk is best for rock mining". But for highsec mining ops I can't really see anything about the Hulk that justifies the 10x (vs a Coveter) price tag. For 0.0 Hulk is the way to go of course since it can tank the rats, but for strictly highsec ops I just don't see it. I need two mining ships since I can't clone jump with my stuff.

Anyway.. the only thing I can see that a Hulk has over a Coveter for highsec ops is the ability to use two MLUs. I have a dedicated hauler (Mammoth w/ 36,000ish m3 space) so the increase in space on a Hulk isn't really a big deal, and I just can't justify spending 100,000,000 more ISK to get at that last little 5% of mining yield. Maybe I'm not understanding the bonuses right or something?


Apparently people forget that the Hulk based on the skills needed gets an 9% increase on its yields than the Covetor (due to the Exhumer skills bonus), also another 5-9% bonus due to being able to fit another MLU, and the ability to train the next two levels of Exhumers to further increase the bonus to a total of 15%. Plus, the cost difference is not that vast. A few hours mining in the Covetor should provide the difference necessary to afford the Hulk. With its cargohold (with a high of 17k m3+ using T2 Expanders and Cargo rigs), you can eliminate having to need a hauler and haul the ore itself, although a hauler alt is still more profitable.

Kessiaan
Minmatar
Vagrants Inc
Posted - 2008.01.10 03:44:00 - [9]
 

Hmm...

*double-checks ship bonuses*

"Exhumers Skill Bonus: 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level and 3% reduction in Ice Harvester duration"

.. I guess the above poster is right. Thanks!

Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.10 04:16:00 - [10]
 

Two words: Suicide Gankers

A Hulk can tank a suicide ganking destroyer, and Covetor can't, not the mention faster mining on the Hulk. It's that simple.

Paulo Damarr
Posted - 2008.01.10 04:31:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
This is purely for highsec ops. No highsec rats can even scratch the paint on my Ret, let alone on a coveter that has more shields.

In wartime undocking in a barge (of any flavor / tech level) is just dumb.


High sec rats do suck but that's not the problem its the suicide gankers you need to watch out for.

Ebusitanus
Caldari
Tormentum Insomniae
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.01.10 09:43:00 - [12]
 

I use a Hulk in highsec because it avoids me completely the whole nightmare of can thieves and other unrully space debris. Instead of the MLU II I put on two extended hull II and two cargo rigs, fill her up with giant secure cans and can thuse mine up to 21.000 cubic meters of ore without the need of a can or a hauler. Its slightly slower than by going with two MLU II but thats offset by being on my own and secure.

Sinistro
Posted - 2008.01.10 10:39:00 - [13]
 

Mining is a boring job and if you can do it faster its only better. Hulk does mine faster then the Coveter, so the diference in prce you will always earn back.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2008.01.10 10:55:00 - [14]
 

hulk mines faster than a coveter therefore better.

Have a look at Halada's excellent miners guide in the Stations, starbases and outposts part of the forum (it's stickied) and you'll see it will mine about 21% iirc faster than a maxed coveter with 2 MLU II's if jet can mining, which means it will pay back pretty quickly even in high sec. If you are using mining gang links then the difference is even more pronounced.

and you've always got the hulk to sell.

Lain Khazar
Caldari
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:10:00 - [15]
 

HOW do you want to mine? Solo or jetcan with hauler? One of the big pros of the Hulk is it's HUGE cargohold.

MafiaFromRussia
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:28:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: MafiaFromRussia on 10/01/2008 14:30:36
better to get a hulk. prices are not that much higher to buy and outfit it. hulk has better stats in everything then covetor. and 80-90 mil difference is not a problem. i now mine in hulk and friends' retriever while he's training up for hulk. everything is mined in cans. when about 3-4 cans are full 27k*4=108km3 per a little more then an hour. then i leave hulk to mine and change retriever for badger 2 to haul everything to station. becides who says mining is boring?? i usually watch a movie while mining, good thing that i have enough screen space on my 40' tv :)

p.s. i had a flipper only once in about a year of on and off mining. i only had 1can mined by that time. so i just took a badger and instawarp took my minerals back :) came back 2nd time to finish it in 16 min :) btw i think if u r bored with mining try to set a trap for them flippers.

Xavier Iblis
Posted - 2008.01.10 15:58:00 - [17]
 

It's pretty simple really...

Mine a few loads with a covetor. Take roughly 20% of that and figure out when that would equal the 100mil extra you're spending on a Hulk. After that point, you're making more profit.

The roughly 20% increase in mining is the point of getting a Hulk. Being able to fit a respectable tank, having a much larger cargo hold and the extra drone space (5 mining drones and 5 light drones) are all icing on the cake.

Well, maybe 5 Mining Drone IIs and still getting combat drones is more than icing. That's pretty damn sweet, actually.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:52:00 - [18]
 

Here's some basic calculations for you.
We'll assume that the coverter can mine ~10 mil per hour in high sec.

The hulk can mine 24% more with max skills (15% exhumers, 9% mining upgrade II)
10 mil + 24% = 12.4 mil

hulk is around 100 mil or 80 mil more then the coverter.

80 mil / 2.4 mil = 33.3

Therefor it would take the hulk around 33 hours to pay for itself before making any profit.

Phyridean
LEGION OF PROFESSOR CHAOS
Darkmatter Initiative
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:22:00 - [19]
 

My mining alt, with Exhumers 4 and tech 2 mining crystals (with a full 'gank' fit on both ships--as many MLUs as possible and no cargo expansion) mines 344m3 more per minute in a hulk than in a covetor.

In an hour, that's a difference of 20640 m3.

That's 206400 units of veldspar more per hour.

In the region I work out of, that's roughly 1.5 mil isk more per hour.

Thus, the Hulk pays its difference in 67 hours of mining if all you mine is basic veldspar and sell it without refining.

Hope that helps.

Arkedon
Caldari
Pegasus Knights
Posted - 2008.01.10 18:54:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Arelius Sarum
Two words: Suicide Gankers

A Hulk can tank a suicide ganking destroyer, and Covetor can't, not the mention faster mining on the Hulk. It's that simple.


Yup. It requires quite a significant force to kill a Hulk in high sec unless the Hulk initiates aggressive action first.
CONCORD makes quick work of any suicide gankers.

We tried once, and came close but the Hulk survived with a sliver of structure left:
2 Scorpions with torps
2 Moas with railguns
2 Catalyst with all smartbombs
3 Caracals with heavy missile loadouts
Several frigates to try to finish off the hulk if it survived.
There were other ships but I cant remember them all.

Each ship was only really able to fire off one volley before getting ECM blasted by CONCORD and quickly destroyed. (WTB CONCORD lock times Very Happy)

A Covetor would not have survived a fraction of that force.

However, this is one of those rare "what the hell" moments. A suspected macro-miner was spotted in the system and everyone just decided to bring in a sacrifice ship for fun.
But there is no guarantee that people will never try it again.

Hi-sec is not guaranteed safe. There are a lot of crazies out there who would gladly waste ships and isk just for lolz.


deepfreeze007
Swordfish LLD
Posted - 2008.01.10 19:30:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kessiaan
OK, I'm almost done training Barges V (finally), and soon will be able to train Exhumers.

Now, people are always saying, "Hulk is best for rock mining". But for highsec mining ops I can't really see anything about the Hulk that justifies the 10x (vs a Coveter) price tag. For 0.0 Hulk is the way to go of course since it can tank the rats, but for strictly highsec ops I just don't see it. I need two mining ships since I can't clone jump with my stuff.

Anyway.. the only thing I can see that a Hulk has over a Coveter for highsec ops is the ability to use two MLUs. I have a dedicated hauler (Mammoth w/ 36,000ish m3 space) so the increase in space on a Hulk isn't really a big deal, and I just can't justify spending 100,000,000 more ISK to get at that last little 5% of mining yield. Maybe I'm not understanding the bonuses right or something?


I don't even know why this is a question. If you're serious about being an elite miner, then why wouldn't you want to get into a Hulk? Let's say you put the same fitting on both ship's, the bonus you get from the Exhumer skills nets you even more m3 of ore/cycle in the Hulk. And 120Mil ISK? I got mine for around 600Mil when they first came out, and that's when I thought I was rich when I had like 50Mil in my wallet. You should be happy the price has come down so much. For only 120Mil, the Hulk is well worth the price and affordable by just about anyone, and you're only going to mine more per hour, earning you more ISK/hour.

I wouldn't worry about highsec rats, and I've never seen a ganker/pirate harrass anyone in a Highsec roid belt, only at gates, and mostly going for haulers with a cargohold full of stuff that's worth MUCH more than a can of ore (Highsec). By the time you're in a Hulk with good skills, you can probably fly another ship decently sell, or you're alt can fly something good and he's out there with you to help in defense. I had my alt in a Drake and Ferox for a while (BCs can use one gang link ;) ) and now he's in a Vulture. If you're still worried, throw a scram and webber on the hulk so he can tackle them while you're drones and alt chew his face off.

Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.10 21:12:00 - [22]
 

The Hulk is THE mining barge and as posted earlier, it is the best choice for mining. When compared to the covetor, there are the obvious advantages of it being a tech II ship, (shields, drone bay, tank, etc...), but more importantly, the bonus to yield. With Exhumers @ III, there is already another 9%, with another 6% bonus left to be trained. The additional mining laser, and easier fitting requirements when equipping T2 strip miners make the Hulk far superior. You can spend a day or two mining to make up the difference, and then enjoy your profits Very Happy.

Caligulus
Legion of Lost Souls
Posted - 2008.01.10 21:35:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Caligulus on 10/01/2008 21:36:13
A properly fit Caracal with T2 HAMS can suicide a Hulk before concord can intervene. If you fit the right tank you can survive barely.

With that being said the very best you can do is to avoid mining in high traffic systems...and even then the griefers will find you.

If you do mine in dangerous areas I'd recommend using a covetor as it's a little easier on the wallet to lose then a hulk.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 21:39:00 - [24]
 

Somehow this effects Amarr. Amarr used to be good mining ships, now the Hulk obsolete them. Before Amarr could tank 0.0 and mine, now Hulk does that better. Another Amarr Nerf courtasy of CCP

Eagle Tarquinas
Gallente
Reliables Inc
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Somehow this effects Amarr. Amarr used to be good mining ships, now the Hulk obsolete them. Before Amarr could tank 0.0 and mine, now Hulk does that better. Another Amarr Nerf courtasy of CCP

Newsflash... Faction ships are made for hauling or killing, not mining (at least large scale mining). The only mining ships are factionless; therefore Amarr is not affected by the Hulk.

Skeiron
Wretched Industries
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:51:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Somehow this effects Amarr. Amarr used to be good mining ships, now the Hulk obsolete them. Before Amarr could tank 0.0 and mine, now Hulk does that better. Another Amarr Nerf courtasy of CCP


I lol'd irl.

Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:51:00 - [27]
 

Newsflash JoJo: WE DON'T ****ING CARE!

As to the OP, the Hulk has a good few advantages. And no, drone bay is not one of them.

More cargo
T2 resists
More raw HP (thus tougher to suicide)
A MUCH better tank (you can even do deep 0.0 with a Gistii A-type small shield booster)
The ability to fit said tank with 3 MSM IIs and 2 MLU IIs
9-15% more yield from the Exhumers skill
Overall, a helluva lot sexier

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.01.10 23:08:00 - [28]
 

To be completely honest, the difference in yeilds, though SIGNIFICANT on paper (with perfect skills it's 15% more before you consider the MLU's), doesn't pan out to be nearly the difference in isk/hour that one would expect. Of course with the MLU difference calculated (remember in high sec you can just use light drones to melt rats before they do any real harm to your ship easily so there is no need for a tank fitting at all except for maybe a buffer) the difference is more significant. Eventually the hulk would pay for itself, but given the going rates of empire ore these days I think I can mine less than 10 mil an hour in empire (admittedly I'm not doing it nearly as effeciently as I could - for example I use cargo expanders instead of MLU's to negate the need for my badger, and I don't pay a lot of attention to the cycles and worry about turning off my lasers at an optimum time, and I don't even bother with drones) so it's really a personal choice. The hulk is clearly the better ship with a potential to get 20%+ more isk/hour than the covetor, but 20% extra empire rates will take a long time to make up the difference.

That being said, you CAN use a covetor in 0.0. It's just a pain because you have to have someone to tank as the covetor simply cannot do it on it's own, and the mining bonus can be very lucrative.


Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.01.10 23:13:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: VB Sarge
I think the point of this thread is being totally overlooked.

The question isn't about tank and drones to take out rats with, it is a question about which is a better trade off for high sec only mining?
Spend 20mil and get a Covetor?
or
Spend 120mil and get a Hulk?

The debate I think the OP wanted was about when does the price difference stop being an issue? Say the Covetor makes 200mil in a week, and the Hulk makes 300mil? using totally made up figures for the sake of the arguement, but for the life of me I can't get the question that goes there out right...

Where is the cost effective break point? Maybe that's the question.

5 light drones and no tank modules are enough on a Retriever to fend of high sec rats, but the ability to fit a second MLU? When does that actually start to make a difference when compared with the single MLU on a Covetor? That's the question.


The cost effective break poing in this case varies greatly. Losing a mining ship is pretty rare - because you basically have to be outright stupid to let it happen (of course it DOES happen but it's not a weekly or even monthly occurance for most miners - even ME and I'm an EXPERT at doing boneheaded things and losing ships). As such the investment paid for a hulk will inevitably pay itself back and then quite a bit in MOST cases. If you are worried about losing your hulk, or if you do it say once a week and you only mine 1 hour a night then it's a losing proposition. Basically it's worth it EVENTUALLY so long as you aren't getting popped every few weeks is what I'm saying and in 0.0 it's almost mandatory.

In high sec, I'd say generally it's NOT worth the extra cash simply because the return per hour invest in mining is very very low right now (tritanium is in second place for high sec ore prices to give you an idea of how bad it is - at leas tin the Sinq Liasion region)

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.10 23:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Skeiron
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Somehow this effects Amarr. Amarr used to be good mining ships, now the Hulk obsolete them. Before Amarr could tank 0.0 and mine, now Hulk does that better. Another Amarr Nerf courtasy of CCP


I lol'd irl.


Me too. Especially cause the dominix lost its bonus to mining drones. Rolling Eyes


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