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shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:58:00 - [181]
 

And both of you are under the misconception that these ships should be balanced against the T1 hulls they are based off of, rather than the rest of the ships in class.

If such were the case, and an important aspect in ship design, why the switch in bonuses for the Paladin. Why does the sacrilege compare favorable to its counterparts, while its T1 hull does not against it's?

You guys are looking at it from a skewed point of view, something i have no clue what gave rise to. Ships are balanced against others in its CLASS and TIER. If you have to say it 100 times then do so, and understand that. Hulls are only hulls. There has still not been one compelling argument as to why the devoter deserves to have a weapon hard-point removed, making it the only HIC with 4 weapons rather than 5.

How about I propose one for you. In order to give the devoter a 5th hardpoint, CCP would have to consider boosting it's fitting to a point that would allow it to fit yet another 1600 mm plate, just to accommodate one more FMP II. That is at least a plausable explanation, of course it then would draw light on another issue that is seperate from this thread.


Mc Fraser
Minmatar
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2008.01.11 09:25:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: shinsushi


UTTER ****




YOU SIR ARE A BIGGER TROLL THAN JoJo

if you are going to use EFT use your skills and not EFT all skills at lvl 5

on neon razor i had HIC 4 with heavy missile spec 4 heavy assault missile spec 4 and medium pulse 4
i also had caldari and amarr cruiser 5

the devoter does more dmg than the onyx yes it uses cap for its weapons but they are f-ing lasers what did you ever expect yes the onyz and droadsword are lucky they have 0 cap on weapons if you think the devoter is so crap spend 10 days training a different cruiser to 5 so you can use they devoter and then find out how they are all not that different.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.01.11 10:30:00 - [183]
 

*moderated*

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.11 10:46:00 - [184]
 

*moderated*

Mc Fraser
Minmatar
ROMANIA Renegades
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2008.01.11 11:16:00 - [185]
 

*moderated*

Glarion Garnier
Thermal reaction
Posted - 2008.01.11 11:52:00 - [186]
 

*moderated*

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 12:47:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Mc Fraser
Originally by: shinsushi


UTTER ****




YOU SIR ARE A BIGGER TROLL THAN JoJo

if you are going to use EFT use your skills and not EFT all skills at lvl 5

on neon razor i had HIC 4 with heavy missile spec 4 heavy assault missile spec 4 and medium pulse 4
i also had caldari and amarr cruiser 5

the devoter does more dmg than the onyx yes it uses cap for its weapons but they are f-ing lasers what did you ever expect yes the onyz and droadsword are lucky they have 0 cap on weapons if you think the devoter is so crap spend 10 days training a different cruiser to 5 so you can use they devoter and then find out how they are all not that different.



Hmm.... didn't we just prove, back one page, that the onyx does indeed do more DPS (195 vs 167)... I think we did. When using EFT, try to fit kinetic missiles on the onyx and you will see it does more damage.

how about we use the same skills to compare two ships? I know its a radical idea, but it just might take the pilot out of the equation..... all lvl 4s perhaps? I don't believe it will make much of a difference. This is bad logic brought about by people who lost arguments months ago, because they had nothing else to say. As soon as I see nothing but personal attacks and people complaining about EFT, I know I have won the argument, and that I am right. Thanks guys.


I see my fan club has arrived, its kinda ironic when you call someone a troll, and completely ignore the discussion at hand isn't it? I wonder if they have a word to describe that....

Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.11 12:55:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: shinsushi

I see my fan club has arrived, its kinda ironic when you call someone a troll, and completely ignore the discussion at hand isn't it? I wonder if they have a word to describe that....


I think you are making a "Jonny JoJo"-argument there.

More on topic, I have no idea why you spend all that time whining about one of those Amarr ships that is actually quite decent.

Ariel Dawn
Posted - 2008.01.11 13:39:00 - [189]
 

Devoter is the best HIC at what it's supposed to be used for, holding down Super Capitals. It's DPS is pathetic, just like all the other HICs. Fly another ship if you want DPS.

Ignore Jonny JoJo and shinsushi so they can go back to jerking each other off and complaining about Amarr. There is absolutely no argument that will work against them, period.

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.01.11 15:09:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 11/01/2008 15:13:52
Okay, this is a first for me. A second reply in a Jonny JoJo thread.

1. Devoter can do more DPS than it's T1 counterpart. All of the other ones do equal or lesser main weapon DPS and all of the others lose all of their drone DPS. In this respect, the Devoter is actually superior to the other Heavy 'Dictors. Now, whether or not it's T1 counterpart is gimped is an entirely different discussion.

2. The Devoter can maintain it's damage at range far better than the Phobos. It's about on par range-wise with an AC Broadsword. A HAM Onyx should slightly out-range it. This is consistent with the other racial ships. The same relationship should hold for long range weapons as well, although the Onyx is the only Heavy 'Dictor that has an easier time fitting long range weapons. But this is true of all missile ships, not just Heavy 'Dictors.

3. The Devoter can tank a DD blast just as well as any of the other Heavy 'Dictors. Plate it, crank its resists up, and you have a huge effective HP buffer. If you're going into a fight to tackle a Titan, you tank to match that Titan. Devoters obviously tank a Minmatar DD better than a Phobos would. A Phobos would tank a Caldari DD better than a Devoter. Rock, Paper, Scissors.

4. What the Devoter cannot do is fit an anti-DD tank (i.e. massive HP buffer) and a good, sustainable repper tank. The Phobos has a hard time with this as well. The Broadsword and the Onyx can, however, do this because their passive shield tank grants them high HP and high shield regen. But this isn't a Heavy 'Dictor issue, it's a tanking issue that applies to pretty much all ships in EvE.

5. The Devoter also has some cap issues, especially if it mounts a MWD. So does the Phobos. The Broadsword and the Onyx don't suffer as much from cap issues because of their capless weapons, but if they fit a MWD they lose a module for tanking which offsets the cap issues somewhat. This again is an issue with the races in general and not limited to Heavy 'Dictors.


So is the Devoter crap? No.
Is it balanced relative to the other Heavy 'Dictors? As well we it can be given the racial differences in EvE.

Are there general game design issues that happen to manifest themselves very well with Heavy 'Dictors? You bet.


EDIT: Blah, typos.

Van Steiza
4 chan
Posted - 2008.01.11 16:35:00 - [191]
 

*moderated*

Skeiron
Wretched Industries
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2008.01.11 16:39:00 - [192]
 

What if you get your extra turret hardslot eh?
Then you'll complain only the more that it is not possible to fit good tank + mwd and 5 turrets, therefore they want grid increases.
Then you say "OMG devoter sucks!!1 with 5 highest tier weapons and tank and mwd its cap runs out in like 1 minute, buff plx!!", so CCP will increase the cap of the ship...

The only reason devs never (rarely) post in in ships & modules is that whatever they may do to support the whiners, every problem they solve creates even more other problems. True some ships really do need an emergency checkup (AF, anyone?) but to give in to the Amarr whiners with the demands they are making now is like stealing candy from 3 kids just to keep the 4th happy.

Also, some arguments are just rediculous beyond belief. I thought it was JoJo saying that the ORE mining barges were an Amarr nerf? Seriously that sort of **** doesn't make any sense at all. Rather than seeing everything CCP does as an Amarr nerf, try also to look at the bigger picture, gameplay balance, look at it from both sides of the medal. You will see that what they do is never really imbalanced for either race. Also not to mention that being of a specific race does not compell you to use the races' ships (read Sarmauls guide to cross-training to see what I mean). Generally speaking, there is one ship for every situation (such as tanking for a specific DDD), and depending on the frequency of which the situation occurs, some races' ships may be more usefull overall than others. Does this mean that the entire race is broken? Far from it.

CCP Mitnal


C C P
Posted - 2008.01.11 18:13:00 - [193]
 

Cleaned

Please keep on-topic and respectful of other users. Do not pyramid quote, select relevant quotes and use only those.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.01.11 18:45:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Skeiron
What if you get your extra turret hardslot eh?
Then you'll complain only the more that it is not possible to fit good tank + mwd and 5 turrets, therefore they want grid increases.



And we wouldnt want that, would we? Because that would prove the ridicilous fitting requiremnts for lasers.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 18:52:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:53:51
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:52:30
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Skeiron
What if you get your extra turret hardslot eh?
Then you'll complain only the more that it is not possible to fit good tank + mwd and 5 turrets, therefore they want grid increases.



And we wouldnt want that, would we? Because that would prove the ridicilous fitting requiremnts for lasers.


With one more turret slot, you could still fit five guns preety easy (with plenty of grid to spare) with a dual MAR + MWD + cap injector + interdiction module + 800mm RT plate. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

It does not, in fact, require AWU at all.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:07:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:53:51
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:52:30
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Skeiron
What if you get your extra turret hardslot eh?
Then you'll complain only the more that it is not possible to fit good tank + mwd and 5 turrets, therefore they want grid increases.



And we wouldnt want that, would we? Because that would prove the ridicilous fitting requiremnts for lasers.


With one more turret slot, you could still fit five guns preety easy (with plenty of grid to spare) with a dual MAR + MWD + cap injector + interdiction module + 800mm RT plate. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

It does not, in fact, require AWU at all.


Why you putting skeirons words in my mouth for?

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:17:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:53:51
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 18:52:30
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Skeiron
What if you get your extra turret hardslot eh?
Then you'll complain only the more that it is not possible to fit good tank + mwd and 5 turrets, therefore they want grid increases.



And we wouldnt want that, would we? Because that would prove the ridicilous fitting requiremnts for lasers.


With one more turret slot, you could still fit five guns preety easy (with plenty of grid to spare) with a dual MAR + MWD + cap injector + interdiction module + 800mm RT plate. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

It does not, in fact, require AWU at all.


Sounds like excellent frig dps there.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:25:00 - [198]
 

Do not pyramid quote - Mitnal

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:26:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Bronson Hughes
1. Devoter can do more DPS than it's T1 counterpart. All of the other ones do equal or lesser main weapon DPS and all of the others lose all of their drone DPS. In this respect, the Devoter is actually superior to the other Heavy 'Dictors. Now, whether or not it's T1 counterpart is gimped is an entirely different discussion.


That argument is invald as you do not include full dps from other races. For example, a Damnation does caracel damage. Should a t2 BC do t1 cruier damage?

See the logical fallacy there?

Devoter has 4 turrets and has to use 2nd class weapons or civillian guns to fend doff enemy drones etc in the event of a attack. In the real world, alliances have multiple titans, so having a tank that can sustain a blast of any titan is required. You could get a avatar or a erebus or a ragarok blast if you fight bob, and in the future, most powerful alliances capable of supporting titans will have multiple types. So you cannot assume that you know what titan is going to DD you at a moments notice. Its like assuming that a raven will shoot wrath cruise at you.

The Devoter shows the problems with crazy broken amarr lasers. CCP need to fix that ASAP or pump up the devoter or remove the devoter laser damage bonus and replace it with something useful.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:28:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: madaluap

*Takes a deep breath.*


THESE THINGS WERE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL DAMAGE. GET IT? WHY DONT YOU ****ING GET IT?

It has been posted so many times and you JUST DONT GET IT.


/ms looks at damage bonus in description.

So CCP gave a ship a bonus it was not designed for? Devoters are designed to do damage - you have to engage your brain to work out where the damage goes. Here is a clue - it is not on a capital!

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:30:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: madaluap

*Takes a deep breath.*


THESE THINGS WERE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL DAMAGE. GET IT? WHY DONT YOU ****ING GET IT?

It has been posted so many times and you JUST DONT GET IT.


/ms looks at damage bonus in description.

So CCP gave a ship a bonus it was not designed for? Devoters are designed to do damage - you have to engage your brain to work out where the damage goes. Here is a clue - it is not on a capital!


I allready replied to that stupid comment and i used your own post to own yourself with.

Si Delane
Sector 7
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:38:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:18:01
Ok Heavy interdictor needs MWD to keep targets in range, otherwise anything it bubbles or scrams will just MWD away.

It needs a reasonable tank and it needs to be able to take advantage of its damage bonus.

However it SEVERLY lacks grid. Other races have OMG WTF Tank and nano etc but as usualy, Amarr totally got bent over.

So can anyone name a "SENSIBE" Mwd setup for this ship? Is there even such a thing? The only way people can fit this ship is by using civillian guns on it.


I wanted to bring this back to our OP just for giggles and then point out the things we've added:

Survability to all 4 types of DDD without refitting.
Ability to fit top end guns regardless if it could, you woudln't, and would instead put on more tank.
Fit MWD.
Permarun every but the MWD without cap charges (well not perma, but more than 10 minutes).

Is that everything? Just wanted to clarify.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:44:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 11/01/2008 19:46:18
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 11/01/2008 19:44:51
Originally by: Si Delane
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 01:18:01
Ok Heavy interdictor needs MWD to keep targets in range, otherwise anything it bubbles or scrams will just MWD away.

It needs a reasonable tank and it needs to be able to take advantage of its damage bonus.

However it SEVERLY lacks grid. Other races have OMG WTF Tank and nano etc but as usualy, Amarr totally got bent over.

So can anyone name a "SENSIBE" Mwd setup for this ship? Is there even such a thing? The only way people can fit this ship is by using civillian guns on it.


I wanted to bring this back to our OP just for giggles and then point out the things we've added:

Survability to all 4 types of DDD without refitting.
Ability to fit top end guns regardless if it could, you woudln't, and would instead put on more tank.
Fit MWD.
Permarun every but the MWD without cap charges (well not perma, but more than 10 minutes).

Is that everything? Just wanted to clarify.


I am awaiting your top range guns + DD tank + mwd that can run everything without cap charges/booster/rigs setup. Heavy Pulse use a lot of cap and fitting I hear.

Oh wait - this is Devoter we are taking about - not Onyx/Broadsword!

Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:52:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 11/01/2008 19:54:20
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

That argument is invald as you do not include full dps from other races. For example, a Damnation does caracel damage. Should a t2 BC do t1 cruier damage?

See the logical fallacy there?


Yes I do. I was comparing the damage output of a set of T2 cruisers relative to their T1 counterparts. These values should be expected to be roughly equal given that all of the T2 ships fill the same role and are based on the same types of ships. You're comparing the damage output of a Fleet Support Command Ship with a T1 cruiser that it's not based on. (BTW, the Damnation actually does more damage than the Caracal) The fallacy is yours.

Also, how did I not include the full DPS of the other races? Aside from drones and ship-board weapons, what other source of DPS is there?

There's also the little part where I said:

Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Now, whether or not it's T1 counterpart is gimped is an entirely different discussion.


I'm staying away from whether or not the Maller is on par with the Thorax or the Moa or the Rupture because that's a whole other discussion. I'm here to talk about the Devoter compared to other Heavy 'Dictors.


Originally by: Jonny JoJo
The Devoter shows the problems with crazy broken amarr lasers. CCP need to fix that ASAP or pump up the devoter or remove the devoter laser damage bonus and replace it with something useful.


All of the problems you have with the Devoter seem to be based on it's Amarrian design. So really, you seem to have a problem with Amarr, not just the Devoter. This is fine, just realize that before you keep complaining that the Devoter is broken and focus instead on complaining about Amarrian design in general.

And just out of curiosity, how do you feel about my points 2-5? Or my conclusions?

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.11 19:52:00 - [205]
 

Do not pyramid quote - Mitnal

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 20:09:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 20:09:48
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Cpt Branko

With one more turret slot, you could still fit five guns preety easy (with plenty of grid to spare) with a dual MAR + MWD + cap injector + interdiction module + 800mm RT plate. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

It does not, in fact, require AWU at all.


Sounds like excellent frig dps there.


If it had 5 guns, it'd quite definitely outdamage the Onyx and *most likely* the Broadsword, with FMP IIs. You *can* fit Heavy Pulses but it requires compromises. If you added just one more gunslot on the Devoter, it'd be preety damn awesome. I'd say it'd be the best HIC around if it weren't for the fact that guns are preety irrelevant on it.

Interestingly enough, Heavy Pulses II are much easier to fit on the Devoter then, say, Heavy Neutrons are on a Phobos (would require a RCU II really). Devoter fitting is completely fine.

Si Delane
Sector 7
Visions of Warfare
Posted - 2008.01.11 20:09:00 - [207]
 

The phobos is missing from that line up because passive tanking is good for precisely this application. Not because the phobos/devoter is bad.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.11 21:06:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: madaluap

Im missing the phobos in that line up....I wonder why?Rolling Eyes


Because this is a Devoter Thread and not a Phobos one.ugh

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.11 21:43:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
I am awaiting your top range guns + DD tank + mwd that can run everything without cap charges/booster/rigs setup. Heavy Pulse use a lot of cap and fitting I hear.

Oh wait - this is Devoter we are taking about - not Onyx/Broadsword!
I'm still awaiting for your Onyx/Broadsword setup that can do all that. (with the added lol factor of not using rigs now... the suspense is killing me)

Ms Freak
Amarr
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2008.01.11 21:49:00 - [210]
 

Ok,

What about this for a purely defensive setup (given that a MWD/AB on a HID is 90% less effective with the bubble on).

Highs:
Heavy Disrpution Field Gen I
Proto Cloack (Optional)
Empty
Empty
Empty
Empty

Mids:
Medium Electro Chem Booster + 800s
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Lows:
MAR II
MAR II
Thermic Energized
Energized Adapative Nano
Energized Adapative Nano
1600mm RT
1600mm RT

Rigs:
CCC
Trimark Armour Pump

17K Armour without implants and 85%(mostly better) Resists with decent skills (at least lvl 4 compensations).

You need max fitting skills to get this all on. Its a purely defensive setup as your giong to be primary every time vs. MS/Titan and you want to be able to last more than 10 seconds against an avergage fleet.

I tanked 25 hostiles in BC or larger ships with 15 fighters for 6 minutes with no cap problems and still had half armour when i jumped out (mainly cos i was the only one left!! Very Happy)

The tank on this thing is sick i totaly agree it needs "Something" as its not as good as the phobos, at least that can tank and still do damage Rolling Eyes.


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