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Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:17:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

You are theory crafting. You saying a MWD on a hic is non needed in the real world? Dude dod you expect titan pilots to uncloak right in front of you so you dont have to travel?



I never said it's not necessary; I wouldn't fly a non-MWD cruiser-sized ship anywhere much (which is why full passive broadsword setups are preety stupid imho). You are putting words in my mouth.

I am saying you are theorycrafting about Amarr HIC being inadequate in general, by putting them in situations where they're being neuted, smartbombed, droned, doomsdayed and 100km off.

What ship is NOT screwed in the scenarios you mention to make Amarr HICs seem bad specifically?

Furthermore, you are trolling; you ignore any arguments and setups which go against what you're trying to say. Also, you have no PvP experience to speak off and talk about tackling titans as if you were the font of knowledge on fleet battles. Which stinks of 'EFT-only warrior' to high-heaven, and you cannot balance ships around EFT-wars and theorycraft.



nope - what has happened is that the anti-amarr people have made stuff up and pretend I have said it. This is called STRAWMAN arguments. My point all along, if you read my posts is that Lasers stop the Amarr hic doing its job. They should fix lasers or fix devoter bonus to be in line with what a titan tackler should do.

So people post non-mwd setups, non-doomsday tank setups etc etc all to try and somehow prove that lasers are not broken, and by implication, that the damage bonus is valid on a Devoter. So is the Devoter damage bonus valid or invalid as the argument swings about so much between the Anti-Amarr people

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:18:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo

4. Ad hominem attacks inted of the point that the damage bonus on Amarr hic is wasted as amarr cannot fit lasers properly and maintain any sensible form of titan tackling.



Aren't focused medium pulses lasers? You can fit them in combination with a doomsday tank.

Oh, they're not proper lasers now. Well, you can fit heavy pulses by reducing your tank a bit. At least you don't need to put a RCU II and train AWU IV/V like the Phobos to fit neutrons and anything else Very Happy

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:18:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE


Summed up your post. You're trolling now.

Eagle Tarquinas
Gallente
Reliables Inc
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:21:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE


Summed up your post. You're trolling now.


QFE

Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:23:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE


Summed up your post. You're trolling now.

hahahaaha! you.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:24:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 22:25:14
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

4. Ad hominem attacks inted of the point that the damage bonus on Amarr hic is wasted as amarr cannot fit lasers properly and maintain any sensible form of titan tackling.



Aren't focused medium pulses lasers? You can fit them in combination with a doomsday tank.

Oh, they're not proper lasers now. Well, you can fit heavy pulses by reducing your tank a bit. At least you don't need to put a RCU II and train AWU IV/V like the Phobos to fit neutrons and anything else Very Happy



Please read further back when another member of the community mentioned the problem with focused pulse. You know, back when you were posting multiple highist resist hardners on devoters highist resist to trick people into thinking it was doomsday tankable. Kinda like putting multiple EM hardners on 92% default resist Munins

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:28:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 22:25:14
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo

4. Ad hominem attacks inted of the point that the damage bonus on Amarr hic is wasted as amarr cannot fit lasers properly and maintain any sensible form of titan tackling.



Aren't focused medium pulses lasers? You can fit them in combination with a doomsday tank.

Oh, they're not proper lasers now. Well, you can fit heavy pulses by reducing your tank a bit. At least you don't need to put a RCU II and train AWU IV/V like the Phobos to fit neutrons and anything else Very Happy



Please read further back when another member of the community mentioned the problem with focused pulse. You know, back when you were posting multiple highist resist hardners on devoters highist resist to trick people into thinking it was doomsday tankable. Kinda like putting multiple EM hardners on 92% default resist Munins


trick? no. that's a propper doomsday tanking.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:35:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: madaluap on 10/01/2008 22:38:58
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: madaluap
Weeeeeeelcome to the show JOJO!

The real world pvp man!

First question: What is the DPS of a Onynx versus a titan with the standard 3* 10 km range smartbomb that fire fulltime with a interval of 2.5 - 3 seconds?

1. Will it be <100 dps
2. Will it be < 50 dps
3. Is it totally irrelevant and nobody gives a flying ****?

Jojo, dont know. Jojo total fail...
.
.
.
.
.
...BOOOOST AMAARRRRZZZ


I will be the first to laugh at you, when you see neut drones etc attacking a HIC. Thats what the weapons are for - to take out small stuff attacking you and NOT to attack a titan. You truely must be an idiot, but then again, you will then deny it.


Yeh im a true idiot. Now show me a linky to your killboard, so i can see the expirience that backs up what you are saying...Rolling Eyes

OMG NOOOOO neut drones OMFG OMFG. Remember what you said JOJO:

Originally by: Jonny JoJo


Except that the Devoter has almost 25% less effective hitpoints and has to shoot in smartbomb range. Thats 80% range reduction over the Oynx.



You have to be in smartbomb range OOOOOH YEH, your right mada thats what i said before...What did you say mada: Ow yeh. 3* fulltime running officer smartbombs....

WOW, thats so cool. Thanks mada.



Np man! Cool

Melinda Ves'say
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2008.01.11 00:26:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE


Summed up your post. You're trolling now.

hahahaaha! you.


Jesus Christ its Malka.

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:13:00 - [160]
 

JoJo, just a few words of advice.

Cpt Branko is very anti-amarr. He is also pro-nano even though its obviously broken.

Grimpak? Same thing. Along with a bunch of others like ablestrom. These guys have the vast majority of their post inside of amarrian issue threads calling the advocates "trolls."

Just be aware, these guys are trolls, they will not stop using circular reasoning and attacks such as those in my signature as long as people speak out about how gimped amarr are.

You are doing a good job. Like the devoter, there is absolutely no conceivable reason for it to have 1 less turret hardpoint than all the other HICs, its not really a defensible position. Yet people will argue about it non-stopped.
I might not agree with 100% of what you say, but keep the issues alive man, more people agree with you than the LOUD whiney minority of trolls such as those listed above.


Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:25:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 02:35:41
Originally by: shinsushi

Cpt Branko is very anti-amarr. He is also pro-nano even though its obviously broken.

Grimpak? Same thing. Along with a bunch of others like ablestrom. These guys have the vast majority of their post inside of amarrian issue threads calling the advocates "trolls."



Originally by: shinsushi

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.



Owned by your own sig Laughing

Edit: I must say I'm hardly pro-nano; I don't even own or fly a nano-ship at the moment (did previously though). I think it's a very valid and very counterable flying style though.

My fastest ship in the hangar (a semi-nano/semi-gank Cynabal, gift from a friend) does a very mediocre 2.7km/s; most of my ships go somewhere in the 1.55 (Cyclone) to 1.7 (Rupture) km/s region.

Full nano-ships I don't like to fly but they really don't worry me much; I know how to pilot my ships to fend them off at any rate. I literally don't understand what the fuss is about and what the hell are you talking when you say that FMP IIs track bad (which track preety much as good as 220s with barrage M, which track nano-ships just fine as long as you're not sitting there like a jerk).

Ione Hunt
Storm Solutions
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:28:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
JoJo, just a few words of advice.

Cpt Branko is very anti-amarr. He is also pro-nano even though its obviously broken.

Grimpak? Same thing. Along with a bunch of others like ablestrom. These guys have the vast majority of their post inside of amarrian issue threads calling the advocates "trolls."

Just be aware, these guys are trolls, they will not stop using circular reasoning and attacks such as those in my signature as long as people speak out about how gimped amarr are.

You are doing a good job. Like the devoter, there is absolutely no conceivable reason for it to have 1 less turret hardpoint than all the other HICs, its not really a defensible position. Yet people will argue about it non-stopped.
I might not agree with 100% of what you say, but keep the issues alive man, more people agree with you than the LOUD whiney minority of trolls such as those listed above.




I don't know the other dude, but even though Grimpak's usually responsible for everything bad that happens in game (FACT!!)...he's definitely NOT a troll.

You on the other hand are a typical member of the "EFT F1-F8 please nerf everything but Amarr because I don't know how to fly the race ship I CHOSE to fly" troll crowd...so please look in the mirror before encouraging an obvious troll Rolling Eyes

Damage output of a HIC is irrelevant. Every HIC tanks better against a certain race of Titans than others, it's called variety. If you know you're facing a certain Titan then set up for it by choosing the RIGHT resists mods and if possible the corresponding HIC. If you don't know which Titan to tank against, then you're ****ed anyway because that means they have more than one...and tanking against 2 different race Titans is kinda pointless anyway. All that can save you then is a good FC...which is 300% more important than your single ship anyway.

PS: I really blame Grimpak for everything bad in game...it's a known fact that the voices in his head (especially Mr T's voice) is making him do all kind of bad stuff. Period Basis is like a friggin' madhouse since he moved down Neutral

Ione Hunt
Storm Solutions
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:30:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: shinsushi

Cpt Branko is very anti-amarr. He is also pro-nano even though its obviously broken.

Grimpak? Same thing. Along with a bunch of others like ablestrom. These guys have the vast majority of their post inside of amarrian issue threads calling the advocates "trolls."



Originally by: shinsushi

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.



Owned by your own sig Laughing


This deserves to be quoted...brilliant LaughingLaughing

(Bit like kicking yourself in the balls...)

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:34:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko

Owned by your own sig Laughing


Thats called describing someone, as I did not even attempt to invalidate your argument, merely made a helpful observation about your disposition to aid JoJo here in selecting suitable posters to reply to.

Anyway, so that this poast isn't just a troll, like a different one I am thinking about right now, Please explain to me why the amarrian HIC is the only one out of the bunch that deserves one less weapon hard-point fewer than any of its counterparts...

Oh btw, throwing the phobos out at every chance you get does not invalidate the devoter's underpoweredness next to the broadsword and the onyx. Help me out there, can those tank a DDD (of most any type) while still fielding a 1k DPS tank and doing more damage than the devoter? Does that tank make those ships handle worse than a battleship, further decreasing their value as tacklers?

I am just curious.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:41:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: shinsushi

Help me out there, can those tank a DDD (of most any type) while still fielding a 1k DPS tank and doing more damage than the devoter?


Er, they can't?

The Broadsword can outdamage the devoter, the Onyx, not really. FMP IIs > HAMs on the Onyx. You don't know what you're talking about.

Plus, 1K DPS tanks on a Broadsword are typically w/out a injector+MWD+web. However, yes, the Broadsword is probably the best HIC.

Onyx/Phobos/Devoter are all preety much on par as has been conclusively proven in the thread, but, trolls refuse to listen to reason.

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:48:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: shinsushi

Help me out there, can those tank a DDD (of most any type) while still fielding a 1k DPS tank and doing more damage than the devoter?


Er, they can't?

The Broadsword can outdamage the devoter, the Onyx, not really. FMP IIs > HAMs on the Onyx. You don't know what you're talking about.

Plus, 1K DPS tanks on a Broadsword are typically w/out a injector+MWD+web. However, yes, the Broadsword is probably the best HIC.

Onyx/Phobos/Devoter are all preety much on par as has been conclusively proven in the thread, but, trolls refuse to listen to reason.



So that would be you using EFT, and forgetting that the onyx has a bonus to kinetic missiles, looking at the DPS numbers, then coming on here and sticking your foot in your mouth right?

I'll address the rest of your post at a later date. Have fun using misdirection (i.e. 5 heavy neutrons vs 4 focused medium pulses) in the mean-time.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:48:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 02:53:19
Originally by: shinsushi

So, do you understand the fact that even if the damage output of the HICs is immaterial, that the devoter having 20% less weapon hardpoints than EVERY OTHER ONE is still a problem....



Outdamages the D180 AC Broadsword by 1 DPS using FMP IIs and is outdamaged by the Phobos (as it should be really, the Phobos has basically no range after fitting electrons, the only guns it can fit).

Onyx outdamages it with Kinetic, just noticed it myself.

What's the matter?

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:54:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: shinsushi on 11/01/2008 02:56:36
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: shinsushi

So, do you understand the fact that even if the damage output of the HICs is immaterial, that the devoter having 20% less weapon hardpoints than EVERY OTHER ONE is still a problem....



Outdamages the Onyx, outdamages the D180 AC Broadsword by 1 DPS using FMP IIs and is outdamaged by the Phobos (as it should be really). What's the matter?


Hey, you still didn't change those missiles to kinetic did you? Here I'll help you out.

ONYX w/ 5 HM IIs and T1 kinetic missiles : 195 DPS.
Devoter w/ 4 FMPs and T1 ammo (MF) : 167 DPS (both ships now have locked damage types to utilize their bonuses =)

ok, so you used D180s, the lowest tier ACs, and still failed. 5 x d180s do 175 DPS.

EDIT: oh right, comparable tier weapons, i.e. 220s, do 189 DPS.

Like I said before, assuming equally viable tanks with equal draw-backs (LOL) then the damages should be somewhat in-line aswell right? Now, I wonder if amarrian ships normally out-damaged minnies ships, you know, with the whole worse sensor stregnth, slower, bigger sig, locked damage types, cap using weapons thing and all.


Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:56:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: shinsushi

ok, so you used D180s, the lowest tier ACs, and still failed. 5 x d180s do 175 DPS.




My mistake, accidentaly loaded the broadsword setup with my skills instead of all L5 and got 166 DPS. I'm starting to lose concentration from all this EFT arguing ;P

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:57:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Wu Jiun on 11/01/2008 02:58:28
Originally by: Cpt Branko

The Broadsword can outdamage the devoter, the Onyx, not really. FMP IIs > HAMs on the Onyx. You don't know what you're talking about.



In this case its unfortunately you who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Onyx with 5 x ham and cn kinetic missiles outdamages a devoter with 4 x fmp 2 and conflag from 0 to about 30km. Without cap usage.

As much as i am for getting rid of jojo as he doesn't anything good for the amarr case you should not alter facts to make him look stupid. There is enough stupid things he said that this is not necessary.

Edit: Someone beat me to it. nvm

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:59:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
Edited by: shinsushi on 11/01/2008 02:56:36
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: shinsushi

So, do you understand the fact that even if the damage output of the HICs is immaterial, that the devoter having 20% less weapon hardpoints than EVERY OTHER ONE is still a problem....



Outdamages the Onyx, outdamages the D180 AC Broadsword by 1 DPS using FMP IIs and is outdamaged by the Phobos (as it should be really). What's the matter?


Hey, you still didn't change those missiles to kinetic did you? Here I'll help you out.

ONYX w/ 5 HM IIs and T1 kinetic missiles : 195 DPS.
Devoter w/ 4 FMPs and T1 ammo (MF) : 167 DPS (both ships now have locked damage types to utilize their bonuses =)

ok, so you used D180s, the lowest tier ACs, and still failed. 5 x d180s do 175 DPS.

EDIT: oh right, comparable tier weapons, i.e. 220s, do 189 DPS.

Like I said before, assuming equally viable tanks with equal draw-backs (LOL) then the damages should be somewhat in-line aswell right? Now, I wonder if amarrian ships normally out-damaged minnies ships, you know, with the whole worse sensor stregnth, slower, bigger sig, locked damage types, cap using weapons thing and all.





wait, now we are arguing the DPS of the HIC's?

what for?

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:10:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

wait, now we are arguing the DPS of the HIC's?

what for?


Why not? Excuse me i realize you have a witchhunt going on here and you truly have my sympathy as the man gets on my nerves too.

In my opinion devoter is mainly fine and there are no real fitting problems as the op states. However they do have weapon hardpoints, don't they? Why would you not balance these among each other like you would do it with any other ship in this game? I truly doubt you can come up with a persuading answer.

Devoter should have 5 hardpoints. The reason why it hasn't is
simple:

Other hics lose considerable damage output to drones which the devoter does not.

So there you have it. Case closed. Claiming however that the number of hardpoints is just irrelevant only because its not a main dps dealer is flawed. And i think you know that, don't you?

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:13:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: shinsushi on 11/01/2008 03:16:54
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: shinsushi
Edited by: shinsushi on 11/01/2008 02:56:36
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: shinsushi

So, do you understand the fact that even if the damage output of the HICs is immaterial, that the devoter having 20% less weapon hardpoints than EVERY OTHER ONE is still a problem....



Outdamages the Onyx, outdamages the D180 AC Broadsword by 1 DPS using FMP IIs and is outdamaged by the Phobos (as it should be really). What's the matter?


Hey, you still didn't change those missiles to kinetic did you? Here I'll help you out.

ONYX w/ 5 HM IIs and T1 kinetic missiles : 195 DPS.
Devoter w/ 4 FMPs and T1 ammo (MF) : 167 DPS (both ships now have locked damage types to utilize their bonuses =)

ok, so you used D180s, the lowest tier ACs, and still failed. 5 x d180s do 175 DPS.

EDIT: oh right, comparable tier weapons, i.e. 220s, do 189 DPS.

Like I said before, assuming equally viable tanks with equal draw-backs (LOL) then the damages should be somewhat in-line aswell right? Now, I wonder if amarrian ships normally out-damaged minnies ships, you know, with the whole worse sensor stregnth, slower, bigger sig, locked damage types, cap using weapons thing and all.





wait, now we are arguing the DPS of the HIC's?

what for?


Look up. Ok, maybe you are more a mathematical minded fellow.

We can assume that for instance, a broadsword is b(x+a) and a devoter is c(x+a). (x+a) is tanking, c and B are their respective damage capabilities. Assuming, as stated earlier in this thread, multiple times, that the tanking for their roles is roughly the same, then c=b should also hold true. The fact that the devoter was singled out among the HICs to receive 1 less weapon hard-point than every other HIC is just a smack in the face to all amarrians (whats new though eh?)

Now if we can think of these ships outside of merely super-cap tackling, I think we can see how this imbalance is unjustified and should be fixed. If you are stuck inside of the box, well then sucks to be you.

EDIT: one post up also used the same logic. I am not sure where the whole drone bay thing comes from though, he must be speaking in reference to other vessels because i do not see any drone bays on these ships. Lets not even get into cargo space (200m3 less??? wtf chuck?)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:20:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Wu Jiun
Devoter should have 5 hardpoints. The reason why it hasn't is
simple:

Other hics lose considerable damage output to drones which the devoter does not.



or you can go other way: the Devoter equals the damage output of his T1 counterpart when considering lvl4 HIC skill. However it is the only one that can do more damage (not much more tho), than the T1 version.

anyways, yes, the guy gets on my nerves because they try to do everything on the ship, when it CAN'T do everything.
Like the Onyx CAN'T do everything.
Like the Broadsword CAN'T do everything.
Like the Phobos CAN'T do everything.

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:23:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Devoter should have 5 hardpoints. The reason why it hasn't is
simple:

Other hics lose considerable damage output to drones which the devoter does not.



or you can go other way: the Devoter equals the damage output of his T1 counterpart when considering lvl4 HIC skill. However it is the only one that can do more damage (not much more tho), than the T1 version.

anyways, yes, the guy gets on my nerves because they try to do everything on the ship, when it CAN'T do everything.
Like the Onyx CAN'T do everything.
Like the Broadsword CAN'T do everything.
Like the Phobos CAN'T do everything.


Once again go back one page, read my reply and try to come up with a convincing reason why the devoter should be singled out for a reduction in weapon points. So, are you saying since the maller has pathetic damage output, we should design all maller hull class vessels to follow suit? Seems like pretty weak reasoning to me.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:25:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
Look up. Ok, maybe you are more a mathematical minded fellow.

We can assume that for instance, a broadsword is b(x+a) and a devoter is c(x+a). (x+a) is tanking, c and B are their respective damage capabilities. Assuming, as stated earlier in this thread, multiple times, that the tanking for their roles is roughly the same, then c=b should also hold true. The fact that the devoter was singled out among the HICs to receive 1 less weapon hard-point than every other HIC is just a smack in the face to all amarrians (whats new though eh?)

Now if we can think of these ships outside of merely super-cap tackling, I think we can see how this imbalance is unjustified and should be fixed. If you are stuck inside of the box, well then sucks to be you.

EDIT: one post up also used the same logic. I am not sure where the whole drone bay thing comes from though, he must be speaking in reference to other vessels because i do not see any drone bays on these ships. Lets not even get into cargo space (200m3 less??? wtf chuck?)


Devoter has 1 less turret than the rest of the HIC's.

however the RoF bonus tied to the HIC skill provides that the devoter does the same damage as a laser maller (not stellar, I must admit) at lvl4 HIC.
same for the phobos compared to a droneless thorax.
same for the broadsword compared with a droneless rupture.
same for the Onyx, compared with a droneless carcal (Bit of a oddity here tho, seeing that the Onyx has the carcal bonuses but the hull of a moa).

it is also to admit that the Devoter is the only HIC that can outdamage the T1 version in wich is based, considering HIC skill at 5.


But damage in a HIC is not that much of an important thing, so I would rather go even quads on the damn thing if that would mean a better tank on it.

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:27:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Wu Jiun on 11/01/2008 03:39:05
Originally by: shinsushi

EDIT: one post up also used the same logic. I am not sure where the whole drone bay thing comes from though, he must be speaking in reference to other vessels because i do not see any drone bays on these ships. Lets not even get into cargo space (200m3 less??? wtf chuck?)


Don't play dumb please. Thorax for example has 50m dronebay. Maller has 0. Devoter and Phobos both have 0. Now if you can't figure that out well then its not worth arguing here.

Edit: Ok i will spell it out for you just to make sure.

1 x heavy pulse 2 (unrealistic but for the sake of it) with conflag: 56 dps (on a devoter)

5 x med t2 hammerhead: 158 dps

So who got screwed now? Sure it was the devoter?

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:35:00 - [178]
 

So, what you guys are asserting is that WITHOUT drones, those ships out-damage the maller, which doesn't have drones, and this in-turn makes it just fine and dandy to equally gimp the devoter?

What planet are you guys living on, seriously....

I know, lets nerf the hell out of the sacriledge, or the vaga because their T1 versions can't compare, or how about all of the command ships?

This line of reasoning makes no sense. It also does not give a good reason why, all other thing being equal, that the devoter should suffer from one less turret slot. Wu something above even pointed out that the onyx is not really based off of the moa for example, throwing this continuity through hull class theory of yours right out the window.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:39:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
So, what you guys are asserting is that WITHOUT drones, those ships out-damage the maller, which doesn't have drones, and this in-turn makes it just fine and dandy to equally gimp the devoter?

What planet are you guys living on, seriously....

I know, lets nerf the hell out of the sacriledge, or the vaga because their T1 versions can't compare, or how about all of the command ships?

This line of reasoning makes no sense. It also does not give a good reason why, all other thing being equal, that the devoter should suffer from one less turret slot. Wu something above even pointed out that the onyx is not really based off of the moa for example, throwing this continuity through hull class theory of yours right out the window.


eh?

what the hell?

I said that in terms of damage, the devoter actually does more damage than the T1 version in wich is based, not like the other 3 HIC's that actually do LESS damage than their T1 versions.

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:43:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
So, what you guys are asserting is that WITHOUT drones, those ships out-damage the maller, which doesn't have drones, and this in-turn makes it just fine and dandy to equally gimp the devoter?



You claim devoter got screwed because it loses a turret hardpoint against a maller. So i extended this viewpoint comparing a thorax to a phobos. Phobos (applying just your logic here) loses 50m of dronespace which is about 3 x the dps of a heavy pulse laser on the devoter (with no dmg mods).

So on what planet do you live? Its really simple.


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