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Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 12:47:00 - [1]
 

1) reduce their hull hitpoints to 1/5 (~20k)
2) give it 40% to all hull resistances default
3) add 10% hull resistance per level

I.e.
Caldari Freighter lvl 1 => 50% hull resistences
Caldari Freighter lvl 4 => 80% hull resistences
Caldari Freighter lvl 5 => 90% hull resistences

Kotori
Gallente
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.01.01 12:57:00 - [2]
 

why exactly?

Ursula LeGuinn
Posted - 2008.01.01 12:58:00 - [3]
 

Yes, why?

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2008.01.01 12:59:00 - [4]
 

Maybe he trained Freighter V and wants his freighter to be twice as hard to kill.

Ursula LeGuinn
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:06:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Maybe he trained Freighter V and wants his freighter to be twice as hard to kill.


Well, to be fair, there's not much point in training the skill higher than I or II anyway. Freighters are already so damned slow and carry so damned much, than an extra 20% speed (woo-hoo, we went from 80 to 96!) and 20% capacity (now we can carry 900,000 instead of 750,000!) isn't worth the time it takes to get there.

Nevertheless, I'm interested in the ulterior motivations here.

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Maybe he trained Freighter V and wants his freighter to be twice as hard to kill.


I didn't train Freighter V but that would be the point. At freighter level IV (10 day training) they would have the same effective hitpoints as now, at level V (50 day training) they would have twice as many effective hitpoints.

The freighter is the only ship in game that can not be customized at all. This would give traders the possibility to protect their assets by investing 2 months of training time.

NoLSolidus
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:08:00 - [7]
 

great idea

/signed

Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:08:00 - [8]
 

after learning freighter skills, 2 months later you can fly a jump freighter thus protecting your assets

kthnxbai

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jessica Lorelei
after learning freighter skills, 2 months later you can fly a jump freighter thus protecting your assets


A freighter is a 1 billion asset that can be killed with an 600 million investment. A jump freighter is a 10 billion investment which can be killed with a 900 million investment (~50% more hitpoints). Jump Freighters in empire are a liability, not protecting your assets.

Jessica Lorelei
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:20:00 - [10]
 

i agree totally lol

more hp needed :P

the jump freighter is (sarcasticly) supposed to be the new protection though.

and really teamwork is the best protection anyone can have.

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:33:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Jessica Lorelei

more hp needed :P



That's the point. Suicide ganking in empire is fine. The question is just about adjousting the numbers. How much investment is needed to kill a given ship. With most ships this is not an issue since you can change the values with your fitting choices.

But you can't significantly influence the values on a freighter. It takes a 600 million investment to kill a 1 billion isk ship (~400 million loss when empty and insured).

The question is
* if this ratio should be changed (i.e. more hp)
* if they decide so if the change should be free

The level dependand resistances shift the numbers in favor of the freighter, with a significant training time cost.

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2008.01.01 14:22:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hinterwaeldler
Originally by: Kelron Queldine
Maybe he trained Freighter V and wants his freighter to be twice as hard to kill.


I didn't train Freighter V but that would be the point. At freighter level IV (10 day training) they would have the same effective hitpoints as now, at level V (50 day training) they would have twice as many effective hitpoints.

The freighter is the only ship in game that can not be customized at all. This would give traders the possibility to protect their assets by investing 2 months of training time.



It's not a terrible idea, I suppose, but it only makes them harder to suicide gank. A freighter caught in low sec or 0.0 is still going to die, it will just take longer, and freighters are really ships that are designed to be escorted. I really don't know enough about freighters to say whether they need a change, but if they were to be changed, wouldn't it be better to give them some way to actually customise them, e.g. slots that can only be used for a limited range of items, rather than simply giving them more effective HP for some extra training time.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.01.01 14:26:00 - [13]
 

yeah but the idea of a jump freighter that it requires you to use the same stuff you would use a carrier so effectivly if you have support for you carrier then you should be doing it the same

Nightsheir
Posted - 2008.01.01 14:55:00 - [14]
 

But as their role, freighters are not supposed to get better in combat by leveling up with them.

They are heavy industrials , their main ability is to carry more .Thats exactly why they dont have module slots . Because they are just haulers.

How come you get better in combat or defense while learning how to better use your hauler? Traders dont read books about armor defense .

And there are special haulers for dangerous areas , like blockade runners. And their cargo hold is limited because there is a reason for that .

Thaneal Swiftbird
Posted - 2008.01.01 15:22:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Nightsheir
But as their role, freighters are not supposed to get better in combat by leveling up with them.

They are heavy industrials , their main ability is to carry more .Thats exactly why they dont have module slots . Because they are just haulers.

How come you get better in combat or defense while learning how to better use your hauler? Traders dont read books about armor defense .

And there are special haulers for dangerous areas , like blockade runners. And their cargo hold is limited because there is a reason for that .


Erm... in a dark world, heavily infested with cutthroats and scum of all kinds, with murderers willing to blow up their ship just to take you down with them, with pirates sulking on any gate frome Jita to the end of the universe... freighter pilots do not learn anything about defense?

The future sure is a strange place. But that strange? People able to fly a giant spaceship, carrying billions worth in assets, even though they quite obviously lack a brain? Yeah sure...

If I were a future spacetrucker, in an unfriendly universe without protection for civillians and without a lawsystem protecting me, I would do nothing else but think about how to protect my life and my belongings.

If I were CCP I would start to cover some of the most gamebreaking logical holes in eve and introduce defendable transportation (defendable by effort, mind ya!). If you just try to predict how the character you play in the game would "normally" behave, you would never set a foot into the giant space pinata freighters are.

To the OP: /signed

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2008.01.01 15:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird

If I were CCP I would start to cover some of the most gamebreaking logical holes in eve and introduce defendable transportation (defendable by effort, mind ya!). If you just try to predict how the character you play in the game would "normally" behave, you would never set a foot into the giant space pinata freighters are.



Everything's defendable, this is a multiplayer game.

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2008.01.01 15:51:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Hinterwaeldler
1) reduce their hull hitpoints to 1/5 (~20k)
2) give it 40% to all hull resistances default
3) add 10% hull resistance per level

I.e.
Caldari Freighter lvl 1 => 50% hull resistences
Caldari Freighter lvl 4 => 80% hull resistences
Caldari Freighter lvl 5 => 90% hull resistences


Can I suggest some changes, if I may?

3) add 2bazillion% hull resistance per level

I.e.
Caldari Freighter lvl 1 => 2bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 4 => 8bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 5 => 9bazillion% hull resistances

Yes? No? Maybe? What are people's thoughts on the matter?

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine

It's not a terrible idea, I suppose, but it only makes them harder to suicide gank. A freighter caught in low sec or 0.0 is still going to die, it will just take longer, and freighters are really ships that are designed to be escorted.



That's the whole point. I think freighters should be harder to suicide gank (not necessary for free though). Against suicide gankers, escort only help in denying them the loot.

Originally by: Kelron Queldine

e.g. slots that can only be used for a limited range of items, rather than simply giving them more effective HP for some extra training time.

True, but that requries extra coding from CCP, whereas my suggestion should be implementable by just changing some values.

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Franga

Can I suggest some changes, if I may?

3) add 2bazillion% hull resistance per level

I.e.
Caldari Freighter lvl 1 => 2bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 4 => 8bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 5 => 9bazillion% hull resistances

Yes? No? Maybe? What are people's thoughts on the matter?


It's not my fault that you are bad at math and don't understand how resistances work, you don't have to let it out on me.

Yohanes Flame
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:04:00 - [20]
 

How exactly do you escort a freighter in high sec?

What options do you have if you run into a "gank camp"

1. fight them, nope will just get your trusted local concord legal "gank squad" to come kill you and save the pirates the trouble
2. avoid, probably not if said pirate are not short bus frequent flyers they are at a bottle neck
3. fly ship into huge-mung-o "gank-0-squad" and pray to the eve gods that for some reason they shoot you
4. Log-off-sky-alot-o-sky, probably were you will end up.

New feature report brought to you by someone who really could give a **** about this topic. But just loves the CCP-o-ski logic.

Thaneal Swiftbird
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:05:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Kelron Queldine


Everything's defendable, this is a multiplayer game.


ATM the only defense is blobbing, which does not work because the servers lag out.

Sorry, but all the "get scouts/a fleet of titans/oveur in a poo-laris to protect you" is bull****. Even if you bring a fleet of capships, you can not really protect a freighter. Because there is no way to shield the weaker ships in a convoy with the stronger ones. So it all comes down to "I blob you and you blob me" tactics, where you push your thumbs and hope the other side gets heavier lag then your fleet.

Not to forget that (besides big alliance operations) no player would bother to follow an industrial pilot around on his dayly routines. If you donīt believe me, just try it. Not just for a single "see, I can do it" 5jump tour, but 40+ jumps, four times a week. Ask your corpmates to do this for one month and go count your friends afterwards. Laughing


Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:10:00 - [22]
 

So what you really want is a remote shield extender.

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Hinterwaeldler
Originally by: Franga

Can I suggest some changes, if I may?

3) add 2bazillion% hull resistance per level

I.e.
Caldari Freighter lvl 1 => 2bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 4 => 8bazillion% hull resistances
Caldari Freighter lvl 5 => 9bazillion% hull resistances

Yes? No? Maybe? What are people's thoughts on the matter?


It's not my fault that you are bad at math and don't understand how resistances work, you don't have to let it out on me.



Hey, hey! Enough with the thread rage, let's not lose control here.

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Franga

Hey, hey! Enough with the thread rage, let's not lose control here.


Then post a sensible reply next time.

Stefan F
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:25:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Stefan F on 01/01/2008 16:25:36
Lol cant protect a freighter in highsec? Try to think for yourselves guys.

Get yourself a vulture with shield harmonizing link + mindlink and 10 dual cap injected basilisks and their remote reppers + rep drones. Good luck killing that freighter before your nice little suicide gank squad is killed by concord.

Yohanes Flame
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:26:00 - [26]
 

No for real seriously i no lie how do you "Escort" someone in high sec let us in on the secrets.

Kelron Queldine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Excuses.
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:39:00 - [27]
 

See the post above, and you probably don't even need to go that far. If you do get attacked, have logistics and gang ships on hand to support it until CONCORD can do their work. I'm thinking most gank squads are calculated to take out the freighter with as few ships as possible, as you know more or less how much HP it will have, so even a couple of logistics ships could probably make a big difference.

Even better is to avoid the attack in the first place. It's not very easy to make a big group of battleships inconspicuous.

Hinterwaeldler
Nex Exercitus
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 16:52:00 - [28]
 

I will ignore the discussion about the possibilities of protecting your freighters for now, as this is kind of besides the point.

I'm not against suicide ganking. It's a neat feature of eve to punish stupidity, like people flying around unplated t1 indies full of megacyte. The question is the parameters of it, and here I think freighters are unbalanced and need correction.

Currently, not beeing stupid with a freighter means not putting more than a billion worth of goods into it. This is the hard limit for freighters since you can not adapt the ship (i.e. tank it harder for sacrificed cargo space or something). The question is if a ship with the cost and drawbacks of a freighter is broken if it can not transport more than one billion in goods.

If we accept that this is inbalanced we can look for solutions, like increasing the base stats, adding tanking slots etc.

I personaly like my solution since it requries only few modifications of the game and offers a nice tradeoff (increase the cargo capacity to 2 billion for 2 months of training). Also the freighter level can not be scanned, so the suicide squads will have some real risk as well.

Thorek Ironbrow
Caldari
CAPS Holding
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.01.01 20:49:00 - [29]
 

Yeah escorts in EVE is the dummest thing anyone could really say, because when someone locks and shoots something/someone, it'll only hit them. The only way to "escort" someone, is to RSB them while other ships take down the attackers.

If CCP made it so that you hit anything that goes in front of your projectile, then brining a Dreadnought as an escort would be useful.

SiJira
Posted - 2008.01.01 21:50:00 - [30]
 

if you load your freighter with enough stuff and go afk you will get ganked even if it takes 100 battlships


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