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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2007.12.31 19:59:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Also the only way you could possibly think undercutting by 0.01 isk would actually sell is if you sat in the system monitoring it.. otherwise someone else will undercut by 0.01 again and your item will sit there ad infinitum :p

You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss, in which case a sensible person with enough ISK might just buy your items and resell them at a much higher price (done that), you undercut enough so that you're selling below the value of the minerals in the item, in which case a smart person would just buy your items and refine them (done that), or you just undercut by such a huge by still profitable percentage that others are too stunned, stupified, and angery to do anything right away. Which will buy you maybe an extra day before they undercut you by .01 ISK.

So, really, the only way you could think that undercutting by large amounts would be a good idea is, well . . . I really can't see any.


Sorry, a bunch of items I was selling for my corp were undercut by a huge amount today and are now selling for about 60% of what I was selling them yesterday. Which is still three times what is costs to make them, but extremely annoying.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2007.12.31 20:05:00 - [92]
 

The best undercut is when they cut below the price in a different region without realising it and cover your shipping. You can double or triple your money when that happens. Very Happy

Iria Ahrens
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.12.31 21:39:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 31/12/2007 21:41:37
My only complaint about this thread is the typical station trader elitism, unjustified I might add. Reading a station trader's description of trading is like reading a brain surgeon's description being a doctor, but only describing the brain surgery part of it.

Station trading, or daytrading is just a subset of trading. And relatively the least important one. Daytraders provide no real service other than maintaining the liquidity of the market, just as real life daytraders do. Otherwise, they are just parasites.

Every form of trading has advantages and disadvantages. Daytrading is no different. Playing the spread in one station is nothing like playing the spread cross regions. Unlike the insinuation made in the OP, it is not necessary to haul in null sec or low sec to make a billion or more a day as a freight trader.

Reading this guide is really just a repeat of any RW daytrading guide, which I've read many. What people who specialize in daytrading, and get all elitist about it, fail to realize is they are not the most profitable form of trading.

Still, making billions a day routinely requires billions of isk in seed money.

To hit some unanswered questions asked in this thread.

Q. "Why would someone undercut by more than .01 isk.
A. Opportunity cost. There is a difference between priced for profit and priced to sell. When someone prices to sell, they are looking at another investment opportunity and the anticipated profits of re-investing that money somewhere else exceeds the anticipated loss of undercutting by .01 Isk. Lower prices are usually more liquid, so the seller posts at a more liquid price.

Q. Is this guy taking credit for someone else's guide.
A. I doubt it. This is pretty standard daytrading strategy. There are plenty of books written about the subject in RL, but it's not that difficult to figure out after doing standard research.

Q. Where do people get the money to do this?
A. Lots of ways. When I first started trading, I ran contracts until I could afford a sigil, then I filling buy orders. If you have low seed money, the opportunity cost of creating sell orders rather than filling buy orders is greater. As you acquire more isk, the opportunity costs flips so issuing buy orders and creating sell orders is more beneficial than filling existing orders. At this point, you might want to start toeing into daytrading. But not before.



Uchuu
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
Posted - 2007.12.31 22:39:00 - [94]
 

Nice thread. Many good things already said about it.

I'll add another important thing. Everything that I have put on the market has sold. There is nothing that never sold in 3 months. I used to play the .01 isk game, then undercut prices by a huge some, wait for fools to .01 me, buy their stuff, and sell at 50% higher value, like others have done in this thread.

I'll add one more thing. It gets really boring and repetitive playing the market game like this all the time. Which made me eventually just leave sell orders at extreme high values and continue doing what I like in this game. It's just not worth my time if I'm not having fun.

Holly Hotdrop
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.01.01 00:57:00 - [95]
 

oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2008.01.01 01:07:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Garion Avarr
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Also the only way you could possibly think undercutting by 0.01 isk would actually sell is if you sat in the system monitoring it.. otherwise someone else will undercut by 0.01 again and your item will sit there ad infinitum :p

You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss, in which case a sensible person with enough ISK might just buy your items and resell them at a much higher price (done that), you undercut enough so that you're selling below the value of the minerals in the item, in which case a smart person would just buy your items and refine them (done that), or you just undercut by such a huge by still profitable percentage that others are too stunned, stupified, and angery to do anything right away. Which will buy you maybe an extra day before they undercut you by .01 ISK.

So, really, the only way you could think that undercutting by large amounts would be a good idea is, well . . . I really can't see any.


Sorry, a bunch of items I was selling for my corp were undercut by a huge amount today and are now selling for about 60% of what I was selling them yesterday. Which is still three times what is costs to make them, but extremely annoying.


Or your a pirate, and perhaps a mission runner, and you've gotten the item "for free." In which case, undercutting the average price by large amounts of isk doesn't really generate a "loss."

You could also be a miner/manufactorer who is interested in a quick return, and not spending hours trying to maximize your profit.

Its all a matter of how you want to play the game. For most of us, the thought of investing the time it takes to maximizing profits by min/maxing buy and sell values detracts from the other parts of the game we find to be more fun.

OR... it detracts from out lives, since for most of us this is a game, not our second life.


-Karlemgne

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2008.01.01 01:26:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Holly Hotdrop
oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze


Hello, Ms. Alt.


me bored
Posted - 2008.01.01 02:11:00 - [98]
 

I thought that everybody did this already.

Ursula LeGuinn
Posted - 2008.01.01 02:15:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: me bored
I thought that everybody did this already.


A lot of people (like me) know how to do it, but would rather have fun actually playing the game, even if we make less money in the long run.

Lab Technician071548
Astro-Support Services
East India Company
Posted - 2008.01.01 02:41:00 - [100]
 

The world is full of 1-iskers. Unfortunately, there are now also cheating tools out there making it impossible to keep up, which is why I got out of trading.

Honestly, this sounds like the kind of note a trader writes because he no longer trades! Why would a person who trades at hubs encourage others to go there and 1-isk unless he's done trading because of 1-iskers? I'm afraid this is bait cast by a retired trader and many have swallowed hook line and sinker.

hint: trade secondary hubs and mission points and hope nobody finds that you are making money there.

Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar
54th Knights Templar
THORN Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.01 03:49:00 - [101]
 

Quote:
You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss


It's not a loss if you didn't buy it in the first place. I'm more than happy to sell my items cheap enough so that someone else who makes their money through trading will want to buy it and resell it higher, that way I don't have to monitor the market, let someone else do it and my undercutting will be like a 'tip' for them :)

Holly Hotdrop
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.01.01 05:00:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: Holly Hotdrop
oh wow, i thought the OP sounded a bit optimistic or something, but i've made 2bn the last days just by trading minmatar t2 ships. this is incredible, thanks Nightfreeze


Hello, Ms. Alt.


Hello Embarassed

Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.01.01 05:08:00 - [103]
 

meh too much effort

ship it all to lowsec and charge 400-500% of jita prices. lazy people will pay it because at the root of it all, people are lazy

Garion Avarr
Amarr
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.01.01 07:30:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Quote:
You realize, of course, that the same applies to undercutting by any amount? Unless, of course, you undercut so much that you're taking a loss


It's not a loss if you didn't buy it in the first place. I'm more than happy to sell my items cheap enough so that someone else who makes their money through trading will want to buy it and resell it higher, that way I don't have to monitor the market, let someone else do it and my undercutting will be like a 'tip' for them :)

Ah, perhaps poor wording on my part -- I meant you won't get undercut back if the person you undercut can't do so without taking a loss on the sale.

Though, in my opinion, anytime you sell an item for less then you could have if you'd been smart, you're taking a loss. As long as you'd have sold it within an acceptable amount of time at the hire price, of course -- if you reduce your profit margin by 25% to sell it 50% faster, that's good, as long as you can keep your supply up with the demand. If you reduce your profit margin by 50% to sell 25% faster, that's not good. And the second is what I see most of.

By the way, I'm not really including relatively small sell orders in this -- if 100 items sell a day, I'm not going to pay any attention when I get undercut by a 10 item sell order (or buy order, for that matter). Likewise, I won't even bother making my order lower (or higher) priced than the small orders if enough items are sold that I think my order is likely to still be filled in an acceptable time.

Tido Maliyu
Cobalt Dragon Exploration Company
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2008.01.01 07:36:00 - [105]
 

Whelp... don't gimme all this competition! ShockedRazz

MysticNZ
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.01 07:39:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55
I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week.

You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b +

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.01.01 08:56:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: MysticNZ

You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 10-20b +

Fixed it for you.

Xonkra
Gallente
Posted - 2008.01.01 09:15:00 - [108]
 

why make billions , when you can make MILLIONS

muhahaha

muahahahahahaha

muhahahahahahahahahahahah

muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

muahammm

mmmm

*sigh*

Nanobotter Mk2
Posted - 2008.01.01 10:30:00 - [109]
 

"To be perfectly honest, I can't stand carebear crap like this, but keeping with the honesty, you've actually made it sound quite interesting. Making me consider starting up a trading alt just to check it out."



got some nerve to talk smack about carebear crap and immediately then convict yourself of an even LARGER weak arse carebear pile of crap yourself.... ALT = MASSIVE, maybe the most friggin carebear gimptard cop out act in this game.

Man this game would have been so much better if there was 1 dam character per account, so all the total fruitcake pussies couldn;t use alt's to avoid everything that is supposed to make eve what it is supposed to be.

Leora Nomen
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.01 10:40:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: MysticNZ
Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55
I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week.
You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b +

nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.01.01 11:03:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Leora Nomen
Originally by: MysticNZ
Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55
I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week.
You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b +

nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks


... But this of course requires you to do scamming, right?

Leora Nomen
Amarr
Posted - 2008.01.01 11:09:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Leora Nomen
Originally by: MysticNZ
Edited by: MysticNZ on 01/01/2008 07:40:55
I do the same thing. I see you sell alot of what I sell actually. However, to make the sort of money you are talking about is a huge amount of time and effort. You can only make this money on weekends as well. Market is dead during the week.
You really need to know what you are doing. Oh, and you need alot of isk to make isk. 1-2b +

nah, you only need to have some social engineering skills, can make 20b wallet from 200K wallet in just a few weeks

... But this of course requires you to do scamming, right?

ofc, to make a lot of isk out of no isk

Tarnish Cathair
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.01.01 11:51:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Chribba
I wonder if OP is taking credit for someone elses guide or if you are the same person as the one posting this guide on the Goon forums?


No worries there. Its the same person.

Dravius Luxor
Minmatar
Independent Galactic Network
Posted - 2008.01.01 13:48:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Lab Technician071548
The world is full of 1-iskers. Unfortunately, there are now also cheating tools out there making it impossible to keep up, which is why I got out of trading.

Honestly, this sounds like the kind of note a trader writes because he no longer trades! Why would a person who trades at hubs encourage others to go there and 1-isk unless he's done trading because of 1-iskers? I'm afraid this is bait cast by a retired trader and many have swallowed hook line and sinker.

hint: trade secondary hubs and mission points and hope nobody finds that you are making money there.



I find I can quite easily torture 1-iskers, because they usually invest too much. When I trade; I don't care how much I make per item, as long as I make something and the items sell quick.

In this way you can cost them billions by slaughtering the market value of an item, and this scares them away. Come back to that item when you so choose, and start again.

This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ...

As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops!

Overall though, a highly entertaining thread. It just goes to show that there are infinite ways to make money in Eve, it all depends on one's imagination...



Kaar
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.01.01 14:23:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Dravius Luxor


I find I can quite easily torture 1-iskers, because they usually invest too much. When I trade; I don't care how much I make per item, as long as I make something and the items sell quick.

In this way you can cost them billions by slaughtering the market value of an item, and this scares them away. Come back to that item when you so choose, and start again.

This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ...

As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops!



I love doing that.

I lowered one of the datacore markets by quite a lot just to **** on the people who kept 1-isking me.

SL Helper
Posted - 2008.01.01 15:48:00 - [116]
 

Another big difference between conventional isk-making and trading is that trading needs to be maintained thruout the whole day. You won't make much money by "powertrading" for 2 hours in a day. Instead you'll have to log in several times a day and update your orders (there's usually alot of them if you want to make any serious cash).

Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders.

aklein24
1st Casualty Fire and Aggression
Posted - 2008.01.01 20:12:00 - [117]
 

Nightfreeze, you're my hero, if you're the guy who wrote and did "the great scam" way back in the early days of eve, you're the reason I'm playing now. Cheers, and a happy new year to you, have fun in RL.

Iria Ahrens
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.01.01 20:44:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Dravius Luxor
Originally by: Lab Technician071548


This takes care of macro-traders too, who 1-isk automatically. They're selling 58 items at 18,999,999.99 ; so I sell ONE item at 10,000,000.00 ...

As if by magic, the trader of 58 items has instantaneously changed his sell order to 9,999,999.99, which is cheaper than his buy order. Oops!

Overall though, a highly entertaining thread. It just goes to show that there are infinite ways to make money in Eve, it all depends on one's imagination...





Wow, I guess I don't deal in the markets that macro traders frequent, but I'll keep this in mind if I ever suspect this is the case. What a wonderful idea.

I guess it still needs to be slightly above the highest buy order. I've seen sell orders at stations that are lower than the highest buy order before, so maybe it was bugged, or maybe something else.

SiJira
Posted - 2008.01.01 21:42:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: SL Helper

Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders.
plan ahead

SL Helper
Posted - 2008.01.01 22:10:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: SL Helper

Another thing is that it can, unlike missionrunning, mining ect, be very dangerous to take a brake from Eve when you are a trader. few days abscense can make you loose a ****load due to old orders.
plan ahead

Yes, you'll need to be aware of every possible break that you might do if you don't want to risk loosing money. Unlike other ways of making money taking an sudden break is dangerous.


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