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GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:02:00 - [1]
 

I so often here how well “slaves” are treated by the Amarr. Yet increasingly I am finding that I an unable to find any formal or legal documentation on the rights of slaves. Having been a child slave who suffered through horrendous treatment in the Empire, I am curious what true legal rights a slave has in the Empire. I am less interested in how a single individual treats his slaves but how the governmental organization that is the Empire views slaves.

1) Freedom of Speech? Are slaves given the right to speak as they wish? Are they allowed to question each other or their masters? Are they allowed to state views that might be contrary to their master and/or the Empire without receiving punishment?
2) Freedom of Movement? Are slaves allowed to travel unattended? Are they allowed to move freely about during their “off” time (assuming there is such as thing)?
3) Freedom of Association? Are slaves allowed to associate with whomever they wish? Are they allowed to have friendships or non-work related associations that cross slaveowners?
4) Are slaves allowed to marry/breed with whomever they like without being forced or coerced by the Empire or their masters?
5) Are slaves entitled to an education that enables them to “earn” a better livelihood? Are they allowed to advance in their jobs?
6) Are slaves even tracked by the Empire? Are they given some sort of documentation showing that they even exist as sentient beings?
7) Once a "slave" has accepted the "true teachings of the Amarr religion...is there an organized legal mechanism freeing the slave to join Amarr society? Or upon acceptance are they still viewed as chattel?

I have millions of questions about this....Was my own experiences as a child due to a misguided Amarr zeolot? Mainly I ask because I tire of the countless accusations by both sides on the issue of how slaves are treated. Can anyone produce anything other then pure opinion or conjecture at this point?


Tobias Creed
Minmatar
SaberCorp
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:24:00 - [2]
 

There are a very few Amarr organizations who purport to treat their slaves "kindly" and advocate such treatment, but at best they seem to offer fewer beatings. There are some deluded Amarr who have finally come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong as it is practiced, and so have descided then that it is actually not being practiced like that at all. the vast majority of Amarr see us as livestock.

I have never heard a claim that Minmatar slaves are granted any freedom, except perhaps by some individual masters who reserve the right to snatch that freedom away again. According to Amarran laws, we are not really people at all.

GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:30:00 - [3]
 

That's what I had always heard as well Tobias. But then I hear all this stuff about the benevolence of the Empire. So....here's their chance to show us just how kind, just, and fair the Empire truly is. I mean if they are out to lead us to God and his path to whatever...I'm not sure they are even preaching salvation...you'd think that God would have given his "leaders" a plan on how to treat his future followers well. I'd like to see what they have.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:33:00 - [4]
 

Slaves have the rights their masters grant them (as long as they comply with the Holy Scriptures) and no more. But, to be more elaborate:

1.)Just as People, slaves aren't allowed heresy either.
2.)Depends on their masters' attitude
3.)As long as the associations aren't heretical and the masters let them
4.)Again, depends strongly on the master, but generally people would prefer if the slaves didn't interbreed randomly like they tend to after they run away.
5.)Depends on what job they're needed for. They need only to know the Word of God and any skills directly necessary for their profession.
6.)I wouldn't know, perhaps an Amarrian can elaborate on this?
7.)The Word of God says matarians and other under-people were meant to be slaves, therefore if they accept the Word of God they accept slavery.

GulletSplitter
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:44:00 - [5]
 

I know next to nothing about their holy scripture. Does it say that they are to make slaves of other races? Or does it say that they are to LEAD other races? It seems like that would be a big difference.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: GulletSplitter
I so often here how well “slaves” are treated by the Amarr. Yet increasingly I am finding that I an unable to find any formal or legal documentation on the rights of slaves.

I have millions of questions about this....Was my own experiences as a child due to a misguided Amarr zeolot? Mainly I ask because I tire of the countless accusations by both sides on the issue of how slaves are treated. Can anyone produce anything other then pure opinion or conjecture at this point?




Slaves do not have 'rights' in the manner you speak of. Slave masters have obligations which concern the tending of their slaves. Some of these obligations are codified in one form or another, but Amarr law is codified in many different forms. Other obligations are moral or religious in nature, but of no less importance of slave master's to abide by.

I'm sure organizations like the Theology Council, Civil Court and the Ministry of Internal Order will be happy to produce some of the documents you seek if you go and visit them.


Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:30:00 - [7]
 

Slaves have the same rights that every human of any race is entitled to. The Amarrian regime denies them these rights, and Ushra'Khan does it's best to ensure that they are returned.

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:52:00 - [8]
 

Captain GulletSplitter,

if you really want to understand this you should start with the question 'What is slavery?', which should naturally lead you to the question of 'Which kinds of slavery exist?' and 'Under which conditions could some/any of these kinds be justifiable?'. These conditions will give you a key to answer your questions.

But enough of my notes, here is a rough, but also a bit more extensive answer to your question(s).

First I'd like to provide a general look at the state of affairs in the Empire. A statement of the esteemed Emperor Doriam Kor-Azor - may God rest his soul - in an interview might shed the needed light onto this:

Quote:
Due to the multi-faceted nature of the Amarr Empire there are no formal rules about slavery. I intend to set standard laws for slavery, regulating their treatment, work hours and so on. These laws will call for more humane treatment of slaves, but slavery is an integral part of the Empire and my aim is certainly not to abolish it.


He is famous for his order to treat slaves well and humanely. Unfortunately his life came to an end before he finished this task.

Naturally a slave has no or only some liberty rights (which protect freedoms in areas such as belief and religion, association, assembling and movement) and no political rights (which protect the liberty to participate in politics by expressing themselves, protesting, participating in a republic or democracy - and which even normal citizens of the Empire have only to a limited degree as it's no democracy). After all if they had these rights they wouldn't really fulfill the definition of 'slave'.

Therefore your questions about freedom have to be answered negatively. But this doesn't mean that slaves have no rights or at least something like rights. And if you don't insist that humane treatment necessitates to grant a right to freedom, it doesn't mean that slaves are treated inhumane.

Effectively the order of Doriam Kor-Azor grants slaves something like the right to live, a right against starvation, a right to proper housing and genarally rights to fulfillment of their basic needs. These 'rights' are framed as obligation the slaveholder has towards the slave, but I'd say this is to a great degree only semantics.

To the remaining questions:
4): While a slaveholder can bar his slaves from consorting with someone, forcing or coercing someone to marry/breed has to count as inhumane treatment I think.
5): If you understand 'better livelihood' as a better existence as human, then this is what slavery in the Empire is ideally all about. If you think about it as 'making more profit', no.
6) Certainly they are tracked. If you have slaves within the Empire you must be able to show that you rightfully own them, that they exist as slaves.
7) This process of freeing a slave is not regulated by a law or otherwise institutionalised. So it depends largely on the slaveholder, that's at least my experience.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2007.12.19 00:37:00 - [9]
 

Nicoletta Mithra, I have to admit right here that your view on what constitues inhumane treatment, while not in-line with mine, is much more acceptable to me than the hate-filled, opressionist garbage that quite a lot of your brethren, particuarly in PIE, CVA, etc. spew - yes, I believe the very same people who spout this "SPCS" lie propogate cruelty themselves.

Let it be said that I do not deny the right of the Amarrians to have their religion and to believe in it - nor do I believe that every Minmatar slave currently held by the Amarrians even wishes to return home. However, it is completely unacceptable should there be even a few who wish to return home, let alone populations that span entire planets - there are billions of Minmatar still in unwilling servitude to the Amarr, and this is what I feel has to stop.

There can be no truly rational argument for keeping a person who has demonstrated a wish to return home, has demonstrated no signs of willingness to convert to the Amarrian religion and who has not commited any crimes to be held against his will. In fact, I would say that those who wish to return home and are resilient against attempts to convert are actually detrimental - in that they will cause others who are ambivalent to become polarised. In denying freedom to those who wish it, you remove the middle ground - you are either preaching to the converted, or to a brick wall.

Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.19 01:36:00 - [10]
 

At this point, slaves have no rights since they are not considered humans unfortunately. In the best interest of slave owners however, it is best the slaves be treated humanely. Happy and well fed workers are usually the most efficient workers in my view, and the slaves themselve do not have to suffer unneccessary abuse.

Until the practice can be slowly retired, it's the only makeshift solution.

Lord Berk
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.19 02:46:00 - [11]
 

When you're in an Ammatar paramilitary, with an insane, but massively competent combat CEO, you'll do what I do - treat them well or vaporize your mistakes.




Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 03:12:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 19/12/2007 03:46:00
Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 19/12/2007 03:35:49
Originally by: Arelius Sarum
At this point, slaves have no rights since they are not considered humans unfortunately.

Maybe not in your polity, captain. As far as I know, slavery is the vehicle for salvation, and no one who has lost the privilidge of being regarded as human by the nature of the faith would be offerred salvation where I come from. However, as a significant portion of the empire has extended the practice of slavery past its original aims, we have a twisted process in place that exploits slaves, which are our duty to enlighten, for economic gain. This is, sadly, not the way forward, and also not a cure to the Empire's economic ills.
Quote:
Until the practice can be slowly retired, it's the only makeshift solution.
Barring new revelations on the nature of the Faith, slavery cannot be retired or abolished. It can, however, be restored to a purer state which would likely eliminate the more valid complaints of so-called humanitarians.

To answer the questions posited in the original communication, the interpretations of Amarr scripture on the rights of sentient beings are manifold, and the legal embodiment of those interpretations differs from polity to polity due to the long history of the Empire. Anyone who wanted to ask about such things would either have to be specific as to what segment of the Empire they wished to know about. However, it should be noted that there are vast differences from region to region as the governmental philosophies of the various classes of Houses, and their vassal Holders, have differed in the past and differ still. I cannot say that there are parts of the Empire where all these 'rights' you posit are guaranteed to any slave by law; I also cannot say there are parts of the Empire where they are not. What I CAN say is that anyone who depends on the written law to defend him from injustice is a fool - the slaves that are given the best chance of achieving enlightenment are not depending no someone enforcing their legal rights, but on someone enforcing the spirit of the divine rights they're afforded by the scriptures. Hence, those who make it to enlightenment usually have either been under the protection of their Holder, or have assisted in providing that protection themselves.

The best answer that can be given, however, is this: there is generally an understanding among virtuous Holders that a slave is to be freed when they have a good chance at achieving the purity necessary to enter heaven and have worked off an acceptable portion of the costs of housing them during their spiritual journey. Slaves are, in the virtuous Holder's household, given greater duties when it will benefit them in their bid for enlightenment. What the rest of the cluster sees as 'ritual punishment' or 'inhumane treatment for religious reasons' is only made to enter the lives of the slave classes for religious reasons, and again, in the household of a virtuous Holder, can be limited to things like removing material distractions and creating an environment with sufficient adversity to grant someone the best chance at achieving enlightenment; frankly, things like Vitoc method slave control and overdoing it when it comes to punishment for infractions do nothing but decrease an individual's chances for enlightenment, and thus are not applied by the truly virtuous.

saying anything past this point in public will only increase the confusion, but if you are truly curious, as opposed to simply being hostile, come by our public channel and we'll try to make sure you understand the truth.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 03:23:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 19/12/2007 03:33:15
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
...I believe the very same people who spout this "SPCS" lie propogate cruelty themselves.
Which SPCS, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Slaves, or the Society for the Preservation of Cruelty to Slaves?
Quote:
Let it be said that I do not deny the right of the Amarrians to have their religion and to believe in it...
No, you do not oppose the concept of people of Amarrian descent having a religion, but your lack of understanding of amarrian identity does not discern that we are not Amarrians without our religion, and your lack of understanding of what the Amarrian Faith necessitates means that you would deny us its practices, without which there amy as well not be a faith.
Quote:
...it is completely unacceptable should there be even a few who wish to return home, let alone populations that span entire planets - there are billions of Minmatar still in unwilling servitude to the Amarr, and this is what I feel has to stop.
So, you've no intention of ending the wage-slavery of the Matari immigrants in Federate slums? Is this what it means to be a Federalist - to go to your neibhor and demand that he put his house in order when yours is practically falling down from mismanagement? We do not need legal documentation to enforce the rights of our wards, regardless of race - we need a baetter understanding of the Faith, which appeals to people's humanity instead of threatening them with legal retribution. Your federation, however, is not enforcing the spirit of its legal rights if there are so many Matari among the working poor and in worse conditions.

Put your own house in order.
Quote:
There can be no truly rational argument for keeping a person who has demonstrated a wish to return home...
Stop trying to tell the Empire this if you want to call yourself a Federalist while the Federation forces Intaki separatists to live unwillingly alongside the rest of your people.

Oh, and for the record, foreigners do live in the Empire without forced conversion, though conversion is generally suggested in many polities. However, there is always somewhere for individuals who do not disturb the Amarrian people and way of life to live among us. We just generally find that if they're possessed of some reason, they'll keep converting. I wonder why.

Seems you're continuing to raise points that would be better applied at home, in your Federation with it's superior propaganda machine and ready supply of legalized narcotics.

A final word - any capsuleer organization, including my own, can claim anything it likes, but remember that capsuleers are not the Empire - they are individuals who can legally own slaves, but they do not need abide by the core legal systems of the Empire by virtue of the change in legal status granted by getting a pilot's license. While everyone would hope that capsuleer treatment of slaves would fall within the (rather broad) scope of Amarrian law, this is not necessarily so. Also, because of the Empire's legal fluctuations and the differences in slavery laws from region to region, any one view of what the laws of slavery are is likely quite imperfect unless it comes in the form of a few freighter-fulls of records from the Ministry of Internal Order at the very least. Anyone purporting to know everything about Imperial slavery law is either utterly ignorant or knowingly lying and thus not to be listened too very closely.

Melichor Duraldi
Gallente
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ashar KorAzor
Stop trying to tell the Empire this if you want to call yourself a Federalist while the Federation forces Intaki separatists to live unwillingly alongside the rest of your people.


Wow I need to contact my parents, I must have missed all of those calls from them for me to come rescue them from forced servitude at the hands of the Federation. Rolling Eyes


Gel Kolea
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:39:00 - [15]
 

"Slave rights" is an oxymoron. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either being sarcastic or is an Amarrian pig.

Tobias Creed
Minmatar
SaberCorp
Posted - 2007.12.19 08:10:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
So, you've no intention of ending the wage-slavery of the Matari immigrants in Federate slums? Is this what it means to be a Federalist - to go to your neibhor and demand that he put his house in order when yours is practically falling down from mismanagement? We do not need legal documentation to enforce the rights of our wards, regardless of race - we need a better understanding of the Faith, which appeals to people's humanity instead of threatening them with legal retribution. Your federation, however, is not enforcing the spirit of its legal rights if there are so many Matari among the working poor and in worse conditions.

Put your own house in order.


"wage slavery" as you call it, is not really comparable to the slavery practiced by the Amarr. Unless you would purport that these people are being held against their will, a claim which I would require some evidence to believe.

And maybe it wouldn't "appeal to the humanity" of the Ammarian people to outlaw beating your slave to death as punishment, or forced starvation, for weeks on end, or any number of other tortures commonly practiced throughout the empire. Maybe it would appeal to peoples humanity to have it written in the law that your slaves are indeed human.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 09:20:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 19/12/2007 09:21:30
Originally by: Melichor Duraldi
Originally by: Ashar KorAzor
Stop trying to tell the Empire this if you want to call yourself a Federalist while the Federation forces Intaki separatists to live unwillingly alongside the rest of your people.


Wow I need to contact my parents, I must have missed all of those calls from them for me to come rescue them from forced servitude at the hands of the Federation.
I don't know if this ignorance is willful, or just the result of living under a rock out in the fringes of space.

Look, captain Duraldi, you can't go around denying the fact that a certain segment of the Intaki population in the Federation are separatists. And no, not just 'cause there's got to be someone who supports Intaki Union besides the pod pilots in it, or no-one'd fly their ships. This stuff was in the news over the course of several years, and it's not my fault you haven't been reading the paper. It's also not my fault you don't know of the history of your own people sufficiently to understand the injustices caused them, and it's REALLY not my fault you're an Intaki FEDERALIST, which means that since the comment concerned Intaki SEPARATISTS, your statement was useless here. I suggest you put your energy into catching up with the reality of the cluster, instead of in trying to put in weak jabs at people like me, who do read the paper.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 09:41:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tobias Creed
"wage slavery" as you call it, is not really comparable to the slavery practiced by the Amarr.
You're right - wage-slavery doesn't ever claim to benefit anyone spiritually, except in the sense that if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.
Quote:
Unless you would purport that these people are being held against their will, a claim which I would require some evidence to believe.
I don't have acces to actual census and taxation records from the Federation that I can put up on GalNet, captain, so I will instead say that if you're a planetbound migrant worker of Brutor descent and you earn four isk a day, and the company store takes four and a quarter isk from you for all the services you need to buy from it, you're unlikely to ever have any savings for moving out of the company's grasp.
Quote:
And maybe it wouldn't "appeal to the humanity" of the Ammarian people to outlaw beating your slave to death as punishment, or forced starvation, for weeks on end, or any number of other tortures commonly practiced throughout the empire.
So you claim to know the laws of the Empire, do you? You claim to know the hearts of all its hundreds of trillions of citizens? Hell, they're not even mostly slaveholders, captain. If you were yet another of the hundreds of capsuleers that claimed to be an escaped slave that somehow got into a Matari capsuleer academy, when I was finished scoffing at your utterly chiche story, I'd tell you that the chances for a slave to know many Amarrians outside his household were rather slim. So you met some abusive people? Fine. Hardly reason to say that the majority of the slaveholders in the Empire are so irresponsible as to risk the lives of their labor force - and thus their own livelihood - in the ways you describe - the one benefit of the current greedy nature of many more corrupt slaveholders, of the same tendency that causes them to abuse slaves for economic gain, is that it forces them to work to keep slaves alive and in relatively decent health, because a dead slave for such a holder is a failed source of revenue. Which, I mean, really, captain - if you're going to make a point, make it a strong one instead of a slanderous one. Listing types of torture and punishments for various crimes is one thing, but saying that Amarrians are stupid and will hurt that which gives them some measure of economic stability? Not worth my time.

As for the punishments you mentioned, again, you missed my earlier point. Go back and review my communication where I remind people that the Empire, being made up of many polities, has different laws in different places, sometimes places as small as planetary subcontinents, and that the laws do not always allow for anyone to be treated as you describe. Unless you have specific cases of slave abuse to bring forward to the ministry of internal order, you really ought not to play at criticizing Imperial practices in hope that someone will listen to you if you go arond spouting propaganda and slandering the entire nation.
Quote:
Maybe it would appeal to peoples humanity to have it written in the law that your slaves are indeed human.
Go back to my first communication, captain, and read the bit about religious law stipulating that only those considered human were allowed the chance at enlightenment through slavery. That's the best it'll get without truly idiotic things happening - things which would claim the lives of many more slaves than would be worth risking. And before you go into your rant about how you'd rather die free than liive a slave, the choice would be theirs and not yours, they would not likely die free, or even peacefully, if such desperate measures were undertaken - which would be an especially great loss because their new 'legal rights' would be abused by the original offenders. Bad solution.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 09:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Gel Kolea
"Slave rights" is an oxymoron. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either being sarcastic or is an Amarrian pig.

Odd that someone wanted to bring grammar into this discussion. Evidently Amarrian pigs know all about what constitutes an oxymoron.

Tobias Creed
Minmatar
SaberCorp
Posted - 2007.12.19 10:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ashar KorAzor
I don't have acces to actual census and taxation records from the Federation that I can put up on GalNet, captain, so I will instead say that if you're a planetbound migrant worker of Brutor descent and you earn four isk a day, and the company store takes four and a quarter isk from you for all the services you need to buy from it, you're unlikely to ever have any savings for moving out of the company's grasp.


And I'm to just take your word that this is happening? Hell, if it is, I'll start offering free transport to these "wage slaves" to get them out of this deplorable situation. But I seriously doubt this is happening on a significant scale. Do you have so much as a news article to suggest that this is going on?

Quote:
So you claim to know the laws of the Empire, do you? You claim to know the hearts of all its hundreds of trillions of citizens? Hell, they're not even mostly slaveholders, captain. If you were yet another of the hundreds of capsuleers that claimed to be an escaped slave that somehow got into a Matari capsuleer academy, when I was finished scoffing at your utterly chiche story, I'd tell you that the chances for a slave to know many Amarrians outside his household were rather slim. So you met some abusive people? Fine. Hardly reason to say that the majority of the slaveholders in the Empire are so irresponsible as to risk the lives of their labor force - and thus their own livelihood - in the ways you describe - the one benefit of the current greedy nature of many more corrupt slaveholders, of the same tendency that causes them to abuse slaves for economic gain, is that it forces them to work to keep slaves alive and in relatively decent health, because a dead slave for such a holder is a failed source of revenue. Which, I mean, really, captain - if you're going to make a point, make it a strong one instead of a slanderous one. Listing types of torture and punishments for various crimes is one thing, but saying that Amarrians are stupid and will hurt that which gives them some measure of economic stability? Not worth my time.


We are talking about the same empire that burned Starkman Prime to ashes for the actions of one slave, the same empire that developed the glaive collar and the vitoc disease, the same empire that worked Minmatar slaves until they died pulling the ore from Diemnon, aren't we? You can ignore my personal history, which I admit I cannot easily prove, but you cannot ignore the many, many incidents throughout history that demonstrate that Ammarians, as a culture, do not consider us human. You can cover your eyes and plug your ears and refuse to observe the evil in your world, but that evil still exists. My people are still living subject to the whims of that culture, and I cannot rest easily while this lingers on.

Midnighter
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.19 10:55:00 - [21]
 

I can not talk for the entire Amarrian Empire, as practices seem to vary, but I can answer these questions from my experience as a slave in Amarrian mines in my early life. For the record I was born into slavery and the conditions were below average for a slave facility, but not the worst in Amarr by far. Little has changed in the time since my freedom.

1) Questioning overseers, foremen or guards was a punishable offence. Excessive talking to fellow slaves on duty was a punishable offence. " Excessive" was a loose term. Discussing "inappropriate" matters was a punishable offence (inappropriate included expressing negative opinions of staff, Amarr, slavery, religion, etc).
Most punishments were beatings. For anyone who earned the ire of the facility staff, privileges could be revoked (such as sleep and meals), punitive tasks given (often dangerous or degrading) or even lashes given.

2) All slave movement was guided by security, except in living areas where free movement was allowed but a large number of security were stationed to watch.

3) Slaves were allowed to socialize within their living area. Forming into a group of over 5 slaves was dissuaded to ensure there were no problems with mobs or riots.

4) Breeding was only allowed by slaves who had earned the privilege and were of appropriate genetic stock. In numerous cases, at least one party had no choice in the act. Unauthorized pregnancies were terminated and the parents severely punished, sometimes also terminated.

5) Slaves were trained in what they needed to know to do their jobs. Anything beyond this was often self learned. As there was no life for us outside of the mine, no extra education or career potential was available. Loyal and competent slaves were given extra privileges and given more responsible jobs.

6) Legal slaves have ownership documents and records and are tracked closely when traded. Illegal slaves will often have fraudulent documents and records. Sometimes documents get lost, altered or deleted which can jeopardise the slave's future.

7) We never had this option. We had religion hammered into us, but that was just a tool to make us subservient. "Enlightenment" was claimed to be beyond us and I never heard tales of slaves being freed. I do know that some slaves in the Empire seem to eventually be accredited some form of freedom. If they are Amarr penal slaves, they are allowed to join the lower classes. Minmatar are often sent to the Ammatar to rejoin society. Sometimes the slaves are promoted and given paid employ under their master and allowed to keep their own slaves. There honestly seems to be a degree of respect for them, but they are still not equals.
All these instances are rare given the approximate slave population.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation.

-M-
***

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Midnighter
I do know that some slaves in the Empire seem to eventually be accredited some form of freedom. If they are Amarr penal slaves, they are allowed to join the lower classes. Minmatar are often sent to the Ammatar to rejoin society. Sometimes the slaves are promoted and given paid employ under their master and allowed to keep their own slaves. There honestly seems to be a degree of respect for them, but they are still not equals.


This last bit is the only part of the feed I have an issue with, because the captain who submitted this message seems to feel that he can present solid statements about tendencies in the Empire without substantial figures or sources.

I will say this: The Khanid, Eularians, Udorians, and Ni-Kunni populations are no longer mostly enslaved, which means that the vast majority of their ancestors were likely freed. There are a variety of bloodlines in Amarr that have very suggestive ratio of citizenship-per-capita to support this. Therefore, if one were to make any sort of case about the Empire at this time, one would have to try for something about the Empire's current state, wherein I would remind them that, in recent years, the most pristegous decoration for finding diplomatic solutions to troublesome situations and preserving the peace went to the Amarr Emperor. This does not happen without reason.

Tobias Creed
Minmatar
SaberCorp
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:09:00 - [23]
 

Quote:

This last bit is the only part of the feed I have an issue with, because the captain who submitted this message seems to feel that he can present solid statements about tendencies in the Empire without substantial figures or sources.



Why? You seem quite content to allege "wage slavery" in the Federation without substantial figures or sources. In fact, you seem content to base your arguments off of this alleged fact.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tobias Creed
And I'm to just take your word that this is happening?
Did I say that, captain? No, I subtly pointed you in the direction of the public news archive.
Quote:
Hell, if it is, I'll start offering free transport to these "wage slaves" to get them out of this deplorable situation. But I seriously doubt this is happening on a significant scale. Do you have so much as a news article to suggest that this is going on?
It's odd that you first question me as a source for information, and then turn right around and ask for information from me. I will have to answer thusly to attempt to instill in you an interest in finding answers yourself, and to ensure that the information is not tainted:

If you look well, you will find, in the public archives, articles about the distribution of the Matari population in cluster space. The articles I remember reading, if they're still available, will suggest that around a fifth of your people reside in the Federation. They will also suggest that recent immigration surges have resulted in massive slum sprawls, and that a variety of occurrences have severly limited access to Vitoc - that's the antidote that keeps the Vitoc-method virus from creating toxins in a carrier's system, not the stuff that puts the virus in. The articles may strongly suggest that economic pressure is high on those that need the antidote, and there may be overtones of economic abuse and extortion from distributors in them. However, since I am Amarrian and therefore I seem to be automatically suspect, why don't you do some data mining and present some sort of summation on this thread?
Quote:
We are talking about the same empire that burned Starkman Prime to ashes for the actions of one slave, the same empire that developed the glaive collar and the vitoc disease, the same empire that worked Minmatar slaves until they died pulling the ore from Diemnon, aren't we? You can ignore my personal history, which I admit I cannot easily prove, but you cannot ignore the many, many incidents throughout history that demonstrate that Ammarians, as a culture, do not consider us human.
At least you have acknowledged that your personal claims are of little relevance to a discussion that applies to nations. I will also take it that you have abandoned the argument as pertains to Empirial law. This is reasonable to a surprising degree.

As to your statement about the 'same Epmire' and all that, I will have to explain that as the Empire is both large and old, we can easily demonstrate that there are massive differences from region to region - or even station to station - legally. Is it then such a great difficulty to accept that there are also differences politically? Philosophically? Is it also difficult to understand that there are yet more differences when we bring time into the picture? In the course of the Empire, an Emperor has been dethroned for violating established rights as a matter of the Faith, the Ni-Kunni people were provided with a life immesurably better than the one they had previously, where they merely competed for resources, the Ammatar tribes were given a semi-autonomous Nation to call home, and recently, one Emperor preserved the peace of the cluster while another initiated social reforms, and was killed by vile assassins, who I desperately hope were not from an desperate and opposed political bloc. Things change over time, for both good and ill. Why is it thus the 'same Empire'? Individuals are not nations, captain, and nations are not individuals. The entire Empire did not develop Vitoc-method slave control, and the entire Empire does not use it. One house bombarded Starkmahnir, just as predominantly one tribe became Ammatar. One Holder was responsible for the management of the minor industrial colony you mention, or at most a few. Frankly, even the Empire who wrote the Pax Amarria has an extremely varied track record. Why then speak of it all as done by 'the same Empire?'

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:19:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 19/12/2007 21:25:14
Quote:
You can cover your eyes and plug your ears and refuse to observe the evil in your world, but that evil still exists.
Had you any idea of my political affilation or background, you would not say things of that nature to me, but since you've none, I will clarify - I am not a mainstream Amarrian thinker. Do not lay the mistakes of a nation at my feet, for I am not a nation. And do not assume that the Amarrian people do things as some single-minded collective. These are the sorts of tendencies that make Amarrians wary of foreigners chiming in with their all-important views, and these things will do little but set you on a course for conflict with a unified set of powers. Frankly, we'll only get polarized if the consequences of the actions of others polarize us.
Quote:
My people are still living subject to the whims of that culture, and I cannot rest easily while this lingers on.
More broad, all-encompassing statements. Who are 'your people?' Your family? Your clan? A significant portion of your tribal kin in the constellation you're from? Do you know them all? Know their desires, their characteristics? When they are happy, do you know it? When they are unwell, are you too unwell through some undetectable familial force?

Seems to me that people are their own.

If you truly cannot rest until the lot of Your People improves, the first thing to do is stop making inflammatory statements on a public comm. Every time another ill-considered statement is put on this network, somewhere, some degenerate undoubtedly makes more of 'your people' suffer for it. I wish people would think things through. Especially those 'Bloody Hands of Matar people. And those 'one isk for Midular' people. Might help the People of Tobias Creed, too.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.20 00:51:00 - [26]
 

Amarrian citizens don't have, or want, the rights that the Gallente falsely assume to be universal. Our people do not need false freedoms granted at the expense of their souls. Slaves are not free, so your criteria are utterly misguided, freedom is not a fundamental right of anyone, but rather a curse.

Slaves are serving a just sentence to the faith. Their ancestors committed capital crimes, and they have been given the great gift of continued life. By our mercy, these multiple generations of slaves have come into an existence where, despite the sins of their fathers, their descendants might reach salvation and take a place in Amarrian society as members of the Faithful. This is an incredible gift.

Midnighter
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2007.12.20 00:59:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Midnighter on 20/12/2007 00:59:34
Originally by: Ashar KorAzor

This last bit is the only part of the feed I have an issue with, because the captain who submitted this message seems to feel that he can present solid statements about tendencies in the Empire without substantial figures or sources.



I'm sorry, is a citation needed?
Very well, as you may note that I said it "seems", this is a direct inference to a personal opinion and observation based on experience.
These observations were primarily made through interactions with Delictum (an Amattar corp), PIE (right wing paramilitary Amarrians), VV (likewise) and with numerous pilots on my journeys through Amarr.
The interactions between slaves that "earned" freedom and others always seems to leave a social supposition that the ex-slave is indeed not accredited with all the respect one may afford him.
Surely a larger demographic and survey would need to be taken to qauntify exact and scientific proof, but observation is enough rationale to raise conjecture.
Satisfied?

Also there are a minority amongst several of the Amarrian sub-races who see themselves as enslaved without possibility of freedom. Which means one of two things, eaither the vast majority of ancestors became elnlightened and this new generation decries the unlawful acts perpetrated against their ancestors, or that their ancestors came to accept slavery and the Amarrians and were eventually deemed "safe" to release as Amarrians, but a small percentage still bore a grudge and nurtured it through lineage.
Please discuss.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.20 01:39:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 20/12/2007 01:46:43
Originally by: Midnighter
These observations were primarily made through interactions with Delictum (an Amattar corp), PIE (right wing paramilitary Amarrians), VV (likewise) and with numerous pilots on my journeys through Amarr.
Your observations were based off of capsuleers and capsuleer-bondspeople and you don't understand why I feel it isn't realistic to extend this view to the entire Empire?

I will clarify. Capsuleers are an abberration by Amarrian standards and an outlier by statistical standards. They are a tiny demographic and a fish out of water in the Empire as it is. There are very few registered capsuleers in general - perhaps half a million to two million total, which is comprable to a smallish modern planetside city-district, and we're talking about a nation where a minor Holder may govern a barren system wherein reside billions of people on but a few inhabitable planets. Is the picture getting clearer?

In addition to this, capsuleers are a top caste in Imperial society. Yes, even the ones that somehow ended up with bond-contracts on their heads - don't ask me how. They are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the classes that encompass slaves, so very few of them actually have much input that can be passed off as non-biased. Comparing what you learned from a capsuleer or capsuleer bondsman about the life of a common slave is like saying that a State executive can tell you everything about how all the different poorer Caldari live, all over state space, without that executive giving you a skewed description tailored from rather useless averages that each reflect some sort of tendency but, taken together, tell you that poor Caldari have 1.6 children and whatnot. Furthermore, the factions you listed are the more vocal and the more conservative, not to mention the most prone to standing as rank and file because of their particular brand of xenophobia, which is much less prone to bring about a benefit than my xenophobia, which starts discussions like this one.

In essence, you based your assertions off the stories of a politically active extremist-to-conservative faction in an alienated ultra-minority. I would suggest to sticking to things in the public record - cleave to the databases and you will get a better indication of the true nature of things. I've found it gets better results than expecting completely honest answers from political entities.
Quote:
Surely a larger demographic and survey would need to be taken to qauntify exact and scientific proof, but observation is enough rationale to raise conjecture.
A much larger survey, preferably one backed by records. And you will have to adjust your observations mightily if you view them through the scope of capsuleer opinion.
Quote:
Also there are a minority amongst several of the Amarrian sub-races who see themselves as enslaved without possibility of freedom. Which means one of two things, eaither the vast majority of ancestors became elnlightened and this new generation decries the unlawful acts perpetrated against their ancestors, or that their ancestors came to accept slavery and the Amarrians and were eventually deemed "safe" to release as Amarrians, but a small percentage still bore a grudge and nurtured it through lineage.
The third possibility you're ignoring is that they're wrong because of unintentional misunderstanding; the fourth you're ignoring is that a part of the process of achieving enlightenment is to be placed in an environment of sufficiently adverse conditions that no improvement seems possible. No need for weak thinking here.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.20 01:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
By our mercy...
You have me at a disadvantage there, Admiral - I had thought that ours was only clemency in this process - that the mercy here was all God's.

Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.20 01:54:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 20/12/2007 02:05:33
Originally by: Tobias Creed
Quote:

This last bit is the only part of the feed I have an issue with, because the captain who submitted this message seems to feel that he can present solid statements about tendencies in the Empire without substantial figures or sources.



Why? You seem quite content to allege "wage slavery" in the Federation without substantial figures or sources. In fact, you seem content to base your arguments off of this alleged fact.


Because here, on this public database, I limit myself to making allegations about things I read in the paper or learn of from another credible and publically accessible archive, or at least soemthing I can point to the record of - in short, I make statements on a public comm system that are appropriate for a public comm system, and appropriate because all such statements are usually independently supported by something in the public records, something that anyone else could find with a little work - and no, I don't find it for them, let them sort it out themselves or retain the tendency for being irrational.

However, I've not seen anything that could truly support what the Electus Matari captain posted above. Yes, parts of it may be true, for a small section of the Empire, at specific points in the Empire's history. Frankly, there's some rather impressive displays of brutality elsewhere that exceed these in many ways. However, broadening the allegation made above to the entire Amarrian nation is rather absurd. It's like saying that, if you have a battleship with a crew of thousands, and there are records of a few people in the not-so-well-managed repair crews assigned to such-and-such areas that drop wrenches on their crewmates and themselves every once in a while, that your ship is entirely crewed by inept, injured personnel and you are a bad captain for it and should have your license confiscated, and all your officers decommissioned and blacklisted. Oh, and the ship should be reprocessed and sold for scrap.

Tell me how much sense that view makes.


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