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Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:45:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 22:59:40
After my previous and completely failed joke about the Paladin Evil or Very Mad, I think I have to redeem myself by actually trying to post something useful. So, here is my point of view on two of the four Marauders I have flied quite a bit: The Kronos and Paladin

I will not really debate about the Vargur/Golem, since I haven't flied them yet and have no real clue if they behave properly in their role. I hope this will help at least some of you when trying to assess if Marauders are worth it or not.


Math warning: I used EFT with uber-skills at V to calculate the ships DPS, so keep in mind the figures will stay only for comparison between ships. I however say when a setup isn't practical for mission running

Index:

1/ Main ship setups
2/ Comparison next T1 Battleships
3/ General mission efficiency
4/ FAQ


- Changed the Paladin setup to match Akita T comments, thanks Embarassed

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:46:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 23:02:10
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 22:58:27
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:03:45
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:54:20
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:48:57
1/ Main ship setups

The philosophy behind theses two ships stays quite the same as they are both turret based, armor tanking vessels. In fact, except for the powergrid rig in the Paladin setup, they stay quite identical.

Paladin

HIGH:

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II
2x Small Tractor Beam
1x Salvager


MED:

3x Cap Recharger II
1x Stasis webifier of your choice.


LOW:

4x basic tank (one LAR, 3 hardeners depending on mission)
3x Heat sinks II


RIGs:

2x Capacitor Control Ciruit I


Kronos

HIGH:

4x 425mm Railgun II
2x Small tractor beam
1x Salvager


MED:

3x Cap Recharger II
1x Stasis webifier of your choice


LOW:

4x basic tank (one LAR, 3 hardeners depending on mission)
3x Mag stabs II


RIGs:

Capacitor control circuit I
Aux nano pump I
.

Reasonning:

Because of the web bonus on theses two ships, fitting pulses on the Paladin is a waste. Not only you don't optimize your powergrid and underuse your capacitor, but you also lose damage and range since the lack of tracking under 10km is resolved by a -99% webifier.

On the Kronos, fitting blasters will mean wasting time to move in range from one NPC to another, except if you use T2 ammo, but even, you won't be confortable and versatile in all situations.

The webifier bonus allows you to hit almost all frigates orbiting under 10km and insta-pop them, since their speed and transversal is reduce to 4m/s.

You still may have to play with your transversal by keeping your ship velocity vector parallel to cruisers orbting you at 10-15km, but they still can be swiftly taken care by drones why you concentrate on Battleship NPCs with your guns.

If you want more speed, replace 1x Cap recharger II with a 100mn Afterburner II, but Capacitor will be an issue if you try to run everything for ever in that case.

However, you won't need to. If you are an experienced mission runner (if you aren't, the Marauders are -not- for you), you should know how most missions work and dramatically reduce incoming DPS by destroying NPC battleships fast before going for anything else. Thus, you won't need to permarun this single Large armor repairer all the time, and only activate it when you actually need it.

There is no point overtanking your ship with 2 of them if you know what you are doing, since you will lose powergrid needed for your guns, guns that will definately kill most of the NPCs before your tank fails. You can still replace the T2 LAR by a faction one if you have the budget for it. Expensive modules for expensive toys.

I am not following the common "ubertank" school for mission running, as it is 1/ Far more efficient to quick things quickly and 2/ Far more enjoyable as well than spending 5 minutes to kill a battleship. If you have experience, there is no point spending twice as much time in a mission in a 2-LAR tank fitted ship than using more damaging and longuer ranged guns.


Faction pimping:

Faction pimping one of theses babies will definately be worth it. I would suggest starting to replace the armor repairer by a faction one, Amarr LAR aren't that expensive and give nice results. If you are insane or filfy rich, replace it with a deadspace X one to reach around 2000/11.25s armor repaired on the Kronos. However, you will either need a PG implant or PG rig on the Paladin.

The next module you want to replace is the web. Going for a Domination webifier will give you 50% more range with 15km, allowing you to kill anything smaller than a battleship further and with little effort.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:47:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:05:37
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:04:11
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:54:40
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:49:29

2/ Comparison next to T1 Battleships:

If I can't comment on the Vargur and Golem since I never flied them, I can definately say the Kronos/Paladin pretty much urinates on a standard Dominix or turret based battleship in term of speed and profit. But let us compare.


Offense:

That's easy: With the Marauders, you can use faction ammo since 4 turrets instead of 8 means a 100% ammo consumption reduction. Faction ammo means 10% more damage on general.

Combine this with the fact that a Paladin/Kronos can substain 3x damage mods in its low while running a solid tank and firing (good luck trying to do that in the regular battleships) and you get significantly increased damage output.

In the case of the Abaddon, the gap is even higher since trying to do missions with tachyons with the first is suicidal as your capacitor will die in horrible pain, while the Paladin almost permaruns them.

Paladin DPS (standard T2 tachyons/3x damage mods and regular ammo): around 750 dps with Multifrequency, optimal range is 33km.

Abaddon DPS (standard T2 megapulses/3x damage mods and regular ammo): around 790 DPS with multifrequency, optimal range is 15km. 531 DPS with standard crystal for an optimal range of 30km.

Armageddon -theoratical- DPS (standard T2 megapulses/3x damage mods and regular ammo+ 5x Ogres II): around 1006 DPS with multifrequency, optimal range is 15km. 812 DPS with standard crystal for an optimal range of 30km.

Kronos/Hyperion: The damage output between an hyperion and a Kronos will be the same with the same number of Mag stabs, so it is not worth comparing. A Dominix could do more damage with 6x 350mm Railguns II, 5 Ogres, 3 Mag stabs II, and 3x Powergrid rigs, but I will let you judge if that setup is practical in terms of survability. And in all cases, I wouldn't realy on drones only as my main source of DPS in a mission, since they can be destroyed and won't have shields back when scooped.

Conclusion:

Even if you can fit and substain 3x Heat sinks II on a Abaddon, you will do far more damage on a Paladin with Tachyons around 30km since you will still be using Multifrequencies. In reality, since the Abaddon needs at least to replace one Heat Sink II by a Cap power relay II, you will lose damage. 2 Heatsinks II on the Abaddon will give you 707 DPs at 15km. Armageddon with 7x Megapulses II and 5x heavy drones do more damage, but your tank is minimal and the capacitor won't last more than 3-4 minutes.

This argument applies for the Hyperion/Megathron as well, if you can find a setup with 3x Mag stabs than can be permarun your large armor repairer II while shooting with antimatter, you are welcome to share it. The Kronos will have little problems running that with the setup above.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:49:58
Defense:

Not only you have a +37.5% to repairing amount bonus which will fit nicely with your Nano pump rig, but you have slightly increased resistances as well on your armor. On the Paladin, you have 25% more explosive and 12.5% more kinetic resistances. On the Kronos, it is 25% Kinetic and 12.5% Thermal.

Some will argue the Abaddon resistance bonus may be better than the Paladin reparing bonus, but the difference stays minimal in practice. If I remember correctly, the +25% armor resistance bonus on the Abaddon is mostly equivalent to a x1.33 modifier to armor repairing amount (feel free to correct me on that one, or point me the link where I read this).

Again, a well fitted Dominix with 2x Large Armor repairers may outtank a Marauder as it is possibly better than 1.37xLAR + resists.

Conclusion:

Some will say you have less armor hitpoints on the Paladin (8200)/Kronos (7300) than on the Abaddon (8500)/Hyperion (8000), but since missions are all about substaining damage and not having a buffer, the difference could be twice as much and it would still doesn't matter.

So what? If the Hyperion/Kronos have the same bonus, but the second has better resists, it tanks better. Furthermore the Kronos as 7 slots, while the Hyperion only has 6.

If the Abaddon resist bonus is equivalent to the Paladin repairing bonus, then the Paladin still tanks better overall due to the resists bonuses.

A Dual-Lar or Pottsey passive shield tanked Dominix will most likely outtank both of them, but at which price?


Capacitor:

Sure, you have one less rig slot to add a Capacitor Control Circuit next to a T1 BS, but you have 20% more capacitor next to them, so this is nicely balanced overall. 4 turrets mean you are basically flying a 8 turrets ship with a free 50% capacitor reduction bonus. On the Paladin, you even have a 25% bonus to capacitor.

Abaddon, max skills : Capacitor 7969, recharge rate 937.5 seconds. Ratio: 8.5

Apocalypse, max skills : Capacitor 9375, recharge rate 866.2 seconds. Ratio: 10.82

Paladin, max skills and counting the ship bonus: Capacitor 8789, recharge rate 692.9 seconds. Ratio: 12.68

Hyperion, max skills: Capacitor 9000, recharge rate 1125 seconds. Ratio: 8

Megathron, max skills: Capacitor 7031, recharge rate 866.2 seconds. Ratio: 8.12

Kronos, max skills: Capacitor 7031, recharge rate 692.9 seconds. Ratio: 10.18

Even when the jumping from the Megathron to the Kronos, you gain 25% ratio from 8.12 to 10.18, which is more than a Capacitor Control Circuit II (20%). With Amarr, you almost get 50% more capacitor for switching from the Abaddon to the Paladin, 17% from the Apocalypse, but who in their sane mind do missions in one? By the way, do I need to say again you have half guns on a Kronos/Paladin on your guns on comparison? The Dominix, Armageddon and Hyperion both have less capacitor/ratio than the Hyperion/Apocalypse, so still inferior.

Conclusion: Marauders have better capacitor than the battleships even with two rig slots.


Range:

Since you are using Tachyons and not Megapulses on your Paladin, you can now use multifrenquencies and stay in optimal at 30km (I am not even counting the fall-off). Switching to Standard will grant you a 60km+ optimal range zone, which is far enough to kill anything in any missions.

On the Kronos, with long range targeting 5, you reach a locking range of 108km, far greater than the pitiful 75km of the Hyperion, meaning you can snipe with Lead at 100km in your fall-off and still do decent damage. Dominix won't go past 60km with Sentries, so even in a Sniping setup, it won't be as effective for long range sniping than the Kronos. For each Omnidirectionnal tracking link, you will waste one medium slot, thus meaning less overall tank/capacitor.

Conclusion: Paladin and Kronos have better effective range than their counterparts.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:05:06
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:01:22
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:50:28

Propulsion:

Both ships are faster than their T1 counterpart, so the comparison stops here.

Abaddon: 110m/s
Armageddon: 125m/s
Paladin: 125m/s


Hyperion: 130m/s
Dominix: 120m/s
Kronos: 135m/s


Conclusion

Not that much, but still an improvement.

Overal conclusion:

Kronos and Paladin have better damage, better defense, better capacitor, better range and movement than T1 battleships. The Dominix and Armageddon may be better in their own area (tanking and ganking) but they sacrifice so much for competing in the process they become unusable for regular level4 missions.



3/ General mission efficiency

If you are still not convinced at this point of the complete domination of theses two Marauders over their T1 equivalent, put them properly in their role of doing missions efficiently.


Looting and salvaging:

To my mind, there are three different ways on how to treat the wrecks when doing missions;

A/ First, we have the bounty/LP rushers, who only kills the NPCs and gets the objectives as fast as possible, without salvaging or looting to maximize their LP income per hour. Usually, while you don't waste time to grab everything, you still miss quite a good chunk of the mission rewards, especially in the drone missions as you are skipping valuable components. You also miss the whole salvaging part.

B/ The paranoid gatherers. Theses only destroy the NPCs just like the LP rusher, but when completing the mission, keeps a bookmark of the area before coming back in a dedicated ship to do the wreck/salvage job. Some people will even do the last part during the mission, by using a secound account to gather wrecks/loot.

C/ The last category is balanced mix of the previous two. It consists in only salvaging/looting wrecks worth the effort, basically Battleship sized wrecks.



With the 3 free slots and 40km tractor beam range of the Marauders, you can basically loot/salvage without moving while killing the NPCs. You usually won't have to move because of the webifier bonus, so no transveral to manage.

Next to A/, this is a serious improvement.

If you are doing B/, I estimate this is still an improvement if you don't have two accounts to do the job. If you are coming back in a dedicated salvaging ship, you will still earn more ISK/hour by salvaging/looting while doing the mission, since you don't have to come back and you don't even have to move to tractor the wrecks.

It is still an improvement with C/ as you have the tractor beam bonus and can do it at the same time with a single ship as usual. If you were using the same ship before to kill, salvage and loot, your DPS will be poor since you are already wasting two high slots.


Killing small stuff:


When arriving in a mission area in a T1 BS, I usually focus on killing the warp scrambling NPCs to prevent any bad surprise if I get disconnected, then switch to the most damage dealing ships (battleships usually) while letting my drones taking care of frigates/cruisers.

With a Marauder, in most cases you won't even need your drones to kill the frigates once they are in webbing range. That means, that when you have eliminated the battleships, you are actually remove frigate NPCs twice as fast since you have your five drones focusing on one target while you take care of the other with your web and guns.

This also means that you will not aggro a whole mission pocket by releasing your drones (Worlds collide) or won't lose them if they are certain NPCs going for them (the right hand of Zazmatazz).

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:48:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 20:04:50
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:59:25
Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 19:51:00

Operating costs:

What I call operating costs is the ressource/time wasted not actually earning anything while doing a mission. That includes:

A/ Ammo cost
B/ Reloading guns.
c/ Frequencies of the warp-outs
D/ Fitting your ship according to the mission.

A/ will be halved no matter which Marauder you pick, making Faction ammo a natural choice to increase your damage. Except from the Paladin, B/ will stay 10 seconds (except if you have lag when trying to swap crystals).

C/ Depends on two factors: warping out to reload/unload or to save your ship. Since Marauders have a doubled cargohold, and since they combine good tanking/offensive capabilities, this is greatly reduced as well.

D/ Won't change, it is always better to waste a few minutes trying to vary your setup to match the NPC damage, to check if you need an Afterburner rather than using the same standardized setup.

Here as well, Marauders have the upper-edge at their specific role.


Final statement:

The Kronos and Paladin are actually better than most T1 battleships in every single aspect of mission running. Now, are their worth their pricetag for just everyone? Definately not. Marauders are T2 ships, and remain elite toys reserved for experienced mission runners. If you don't have the money to lose one (thus, meaning no low-security systems when flying one), or if you don't feel comfortable with missions in general, then by all means, it is perfectly fine to stay with a T1 Battleship or even go for a Command ship, which are far more expendable than a 750-800m ship.

However, there is little point in staying in a Navy Megathron or Navy Apocalypse since one more slot and more hitpoints won't compensate the massive advantages of their T2 variants.



FAQ:

Here is a summary of the most common questions I have heard so far about the Marauders:

Q: Since the Marauders sensor strength are lower, flying one means I will get jammed twice often.

A: No, NPCs jamming chances are fixed and will stay the same whatever this value is.

Q: If I fly a Golem, I will lose more cruise missiles to defenders than a CNR.

A: Wrong, defenders have a fixed chance to be launched per missile you fire. So in fact, you will lose as many damage overal to them in both ships.

Q: Paladin webifier bonus is useless.

A: It is if you use Megapulses. If you maximize the ship like it is supposed to by using long range lasers (tachyons, megabeams), you will notice how freaking useful this bonus is.

Q: Dominix will still be faster for missions than a Kronos

A: Well, it depends on your skills and how you fit your ships (and if you like drones), but if you like to run missions efficiently, the Kronos will definately eat the Dominix at mission running since you salvage faster, you hit farther for more damage, you move faster and don't suffer as much when losing drones. But I am very biased on that topic, since I definately hate heavy drones.

Sparkius
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:26:00 - [7]
 

Are tachyons really that useful in missions over mega pulse? Pulse lasers do more damage, and with drones you don't really need a web. You also don't need a power rig with pulse lasers fitted, and the cap is more stable. With no web, you can fit another cap recharger or an afterburner. I'm not sure capitalizing on the webifier bonus is worth the drawbacks of trying to fit tachyon beams over mega pulses.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:28:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 18/12/2007 22:32:30

Actually, I have no idea why Jiraneth "needed" to fit one grid rig, when all you need is a puny 3% PG implant instead.
And while we're on the subject of "fantasy EFT fits", how about this one then ?

Yes, it perma-runs everything, with some capacitor to spare too (so might easily be able to downsize the CC8 to a CC4 or even a cheap CC2).
The G2s, you want to keep them, nice extra DPS from those, the same as with the faction crystals.
The speed implant is purely optional, of course, but nice to have.
You can always switch to a domi web too, but I tried to keep all T2 except the ammo (faction, worth using) and rigs (T1, cheaper, and you don't need T2s anyway).

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:37:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Actually, I have no idea why Jiraneth "needed" to fit one grid rig, when all you need is a puny 1% PG implant.
And while we're on the subject of "fantasy EFT fits", how about this one then ?



Concerning the implants, that is because I am using 1x -5% cap recharge implant, 1x +5% to cap size, 1x to large turret rof, 1x to energy turret 5% damage and 1x 7.5% to tracking. But, yes, the PG implant may be better, actually I didn't even thought about it, depends on its slot number since I don't like to lose damage Embarassed.

And concerning the "fantasy EFT" fit, I tested it myself on mission running, I wouldn't comment a setup I made on EFT but didn't test in game. And it was fine, however it looks like I dumbely wasted a rig slot if the PG implant isn't taking a damage slot Mad.

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sparkius
Are tachyons really that useful in missions over mega pulse? Pulse lasers do more damage, and with drones you don't really need a web. You also don't need a power rig with pulse lasers fitted, and the cap is more stable. With no web, you can fit another cap recharger or an afterburner. I'm not sure capitalizing on the webifier bonus is worth the drawbacks of trying to fit tachyon beams over mega pulses.



This ^
Only part I didnt understand @ OP was why you fitted the abaddon with pulse and the paladin with tachs in your DPS calculations. I am doing missions just fine with pulse so I have to agree with Sparkius. Pulse laser can reach 50km just fine with scoch (or whatever that T2 ammo is called again). They would have the same dps with the same guns, right?


Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 22:51:13
Originally by: Sparkius
Are tachyons really that useful in missions over mega pulse? Pulse lasers do more damage, and with drones you don't really need a web. You also don't need a power rig with pulse lasers fitted, and the cap is more stable. With no web, you can fit another cap recharger or an afterburner. I'm not sure capitalizing on the webifier bonus is worth the drawbacks of trying to fit tachyon beams over mega pulses.



With Tachyons, you reach 60km range with Standard. You do far more damage with Tachyon over greater distances, and thus you don't have to travel everywhere in the mission.

Sure, Megapulses are fine, but you are wasting a bonus. Furthermore, they only do more damage with multifreq. when your target is between 0-20km approximately. Then you have to switch to Standard, where Tachyons still use Multifreq at 30km+falloff. Finally, Tachyons or Magapulses, with the web bonus you will hit under 10km. So what's the point of using them? It's not an Abaddon. You have the powergrid for it, why downgrading?

Concerning the capacitor, it -is- fairly stable as long as you know how to manage your cap. Akita T idea even allows you to remove the powergrid rig for 15% more recharge rate.

Edit: with 4x Megapulse II, 3x heat sinks II and Scorch 730DPS at 45km+10falloff maximum.
With 4xTachyons II, 3x heat sinks II and Multifreq 750DPS at 33km+25falloff maximum.

Furthermore, you don't have the T2 crystals penalties when using faction Crystals, and they last a little longer. Finally, Scorch do less thermal damage than faction multifreq.

So, I still prefer faction over T2 ammo tbh.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:46:00 - [12]
 

T2 ammo ? Bleah ! Faction ammo FTW. Or plain old T1 if you want to go really cheap.

The point was that you get 33-ish km optimal with tachs+multifreq, but only 15-ish km with megapulse+multifreq (and barely 5% extra DPS with megapulses compared to tachs).
Switch to Standard L, and you get 66-isk km vs 30-ish km, and pretty much the same ~5% DPS difference.
And since "not having to maneouver to get in range" usually beats "slightly better DPS" in missions into a bloody pulp... you get the idea, hopefully.

Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:48:00 - [13]
 

Very nice guide. The Kronos is quickly becoming the single reason I intend to train Gallene BS to level 5 when I've always been a Caldari ship lover. However, the naysayers will point to the fact that you can buy seven Megathrons for the price of one Kronos, the same goes for Dominix, Apoc, etc. Anyone with the isk to burn and the skills to fly these monsters probably won't run missions too much if they're so far ahead.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:15:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Very nice guide. The Kronos is quickly becoming the single reason I intend to train Gallene BS to level 5 when I've always been a Caldari ship lover. However, the naysayers will point to the fact that you can buy seven Megathrons for the price of one Kronos, the same goes for Dominix, Apoc, etc. Anyone with the isk to burn and the skills to fly these monsters probably won't run missions too much if they're so far ahead.


That's true, but again, Marauders are tools made for a specific job, designed to run missions and salvage fast and they do it well. They are however not that much more expensive next to a faction BS (800m ISK), and you don't need to pimp them with faction.

It is like trying to retrieve a bullet from a body with a dull, dirty iron-rusted butter knife and save the man when you have a clean scalpel available Twisted Evil

Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:18:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jiraneth
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Very nice guide. The Kronos is quickly becoming the single reason I intend to train Gallene BS to level 5 when I've always been a Caldari ship lover. However, the naysayers will point to the fact that you can buy seven Megathrons for the price of one Kronos, the same goes for Dominix, Apoc, etc. Anyone with the isk to burn and the skills to fly these monsters probably won't run missions too much if they're so far ahead.


That's true, but again, Marauders are tools made for a specific job, designed to run missions and salvage fast and they do it well. They are however not that much more expensive next to a faction BS (800m ISK), and you don't need to pimp them with faction.

It is like trying to retrieve a bullet from a body with a dull, dirty iron-rusted butter knife and save the man when you have a clean scalpel available Twisted Evil


But the months and months of training to even be able to hold the scalpel in your hand is a bit of an obstacle. And the butter knife isn't that rusty. Most players know how to sharpen it to a scalpel-like quality too.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:33:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 18/12/2007 23:40:10
I tryed Mission Running in a Hyperion and a Mega. With 2 M SP in Drones and 8 M in Gunnery(T2 Turrets). I got lots of experience to use guns, lower Trasversial, pick Targest right, use range etc...

Yust trust me a Dominix will be faster, tank better(mostly using only a Med Repper) and will kill smaller Targets a lot faster. With over 4 M in Drones, Drone Speed and Senry Drone Damage Rigs i can tell you, no matter what EFT says you a Domi is faster, afk tankable and cheaper. With Senrys, Heavy and Light Drones and some Med Guns of Choice(720er Scout in my Case) and the right Damage type. You will need a Gurista or Serpentis Mission with lots of BS to even get competative results with a Kronus to a Domi.

The Paladin on the other hand proviedes the Option of using Tachs diffrent to the Abbadon and is not that Cap Limited. But for Sansha, Blood and Drone Missions Puls do fine. Serpentis and Gurista will be a bit less pain with 50-60 km Orbits and high EM resistances because you can use Crystals with more Thermal Damage.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Originally by: Jiraneth
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
Very nice guide. The Kronos is quickly becoming the single reason I intend to train Gallene BS to level 5 when I've always been a Caldari ship lover. However, the naysayers will point to the fact that you can buy seven Megathrons for the price of one Kronos, the same goes for Dominix, Apoc, etc. Anyone with the isk to burn and the skills to fly these monsters probably won't run missions too much if they're so far ahead.


That's true, but again, Marauders are tools made for a specific job, designed to run missions and salvage fast and they do it well. They are however not that much more expensive next to a faction BS (800m ISK), and you don't need to pimp them with faction.

It is like trying to retrieve a bullet from a body with a dull, dirty iron-rusted butter knife and save the man when you have a clean scalpel available Twisted Evil


But the months and months of training to even be able to hold the scalpel in your hand is a bit of an obstacle. And the butter knife isn't that rusty. Most players know how to sharpen it to a scalpel-like quality too.


Well, it is not that bad. Actually, you need approximately the same time to fly a Marauder than a Command ship. Ok, I am not talking about the skills you actually need to fly it well(T2 large guns), but:

Marauder (only counting level5 training)

BS V: 35 days.
AWU: 28-30 days.
WU: 8 days.
Energy grid upgrade V: 8-9 days.
Spaceship command V: 4-5 days

Total: around 90 days, give or take.

Command ship:

BC V: 28-30 days.
Cruiser V: 20-24 days.
Leadership V: 5 days
WU: 8 days
Warfare link specialist IV: 4-5 days.
Heavy assault ship IV: 4-5 days
Assault ships IV: 3-4 days
Engineering: 4 days
Mechanics V: 4 days

At least 89 days here.

Of course, this is horrible approximation, since I am not evening counting training from level1-4 and flying a Marauder without decent skills would be suicidal but you got the idea. They are do not require that much training as people think they do.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:45:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jiraneth on 18/12/2007 23:46:29
Originally by: The Djego
I tryed Mission Running in a Hyperion and a Mega. With 2 M SP in Drones and 8 M in Gunnery(T2 Turrets). I got lots of experience to use guns, lower Trasversial, pick Targest right, use range etc...

Yust trust me a Dominix will be faster, tank better(mostly using only a Med Repper) and will kill smaller Targets a lot faster. With over 4 M in Drones, Drone Speed and Senry Drone Damage Rigs i can tell you, no matter what EFT says you a Domi is faster, afk tankable and cheaper. With Senrys, Heavy and Light Drones and some Med Guns of Choice(720er Scout in my Case) and the right Damage type. You will need a Gurista or Serpentis Mission with lots of BS to even get competative results with a Kronus to a Domi.


Are you saying a Dominix tanks better than a Marauder with a medium repairer?

And stop with EFT people please Mad I tried theses ships in game before making this post, not by using EFT to check that such setups looks nice. How can a Dominix with medium guns possibly kill faster when you drones have to travel everywhere to kill something? When you have to scoop heavies to drone bay because they don't hit frigates? Have you a webber? Sure, you use sentries for sniping. But what about the tracking? The maximal range? Can they hit after 80km?

Well, no offense of course, you got your opinion, but I am just trying to help you to go past that ugly flying shoe which is the Dominix Razz

Did you try a Kronos? Did you compare it to a Dominix?

Again, sure, Dominix will get the job quite fine. I am not saying it is a crap battleship. I am saying that a Kronos will actually be better for earning cash since you can actually salvage, kill, tank nicely all in one. Of course, if you don't want a dedicated tool for your job, stays with dominix, because it will hurt if you lose your Marauder yes.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:47:00 - [19]
 

But a Command are fare better in PVP, you got more usefull Skills, you can fly Hacs to and most Commands can hadle Level 4 Missions preaty good.

Afterall I think this T2 BS are a fail(in concept) they are not mutch better than Faction BS(that cost less) and have Skill requirments far to high. On the Skill Level you can use T2 BS you donīt need them any more.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 00:12:29
Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 00:04:57
Originally by: Jiraneth


Did you try a Kronos? Did you compare it to a Dominix?

Again, sure, Dominix will get the job quite fine. I am not saying it is a crap battleship. I am saying that a Kronos will actually be better for earning cash since you can actually salvage, kill, tank nicely all in one. Of course, if you don't want a dedicated tool for your job, stays with dominix, because it will hurt if you lose your Marauder yes.


I tryed the tryed the Hype and the Mega with maxed out Skills(Gunnery) and I donīt speeking from a EFT point. I have tested this my self on diffrent Missions and it was my intention by pure time to compleet. 720 with the right Amno are better than Dual 250er in most of the cases. You can hit between 70-10 km everyting fine, use no Cap and got the right Damage Type. You will hit BS and BCs even in close Orbit fine.

Kronos and Mega is not that diffrent. You got a bit more tank and Damage but in the end it is limited by BS sized Turrets Tracking what you hit and if you hit. I used 2 Tracking Comps pre nerf and 1 MFS II to get most out of the Turrets and even then Dominix performs better most of the time.

With high Skills and the right Setup you can kill most of the smaller Ships with Senrys. By this you ony need the Heavies for some BS and the Speed Rig + Drone Navigation puts Orge II to 1160 m/s and Berserker II close to 1800 m/s. With only 4-5 Target this wonīt make mutch diffrence and since you can select your Damage Type and donīt got heavy Tracking Issues you will put out more real Damage.

I got usaly go with a LAR II, Corpum A MAR, 4 T2 Hardners and a TS EANM giving me very high Resistances. By the Fact that i Kill most of the DPS with Sentrys before it gets in Range(smaller Ships) and the ability to Outrun BS Tracking with a Gist X Type AB Shortrange a Medium Repper is all you need. The LAR II is only needed for some Missions with Damage Peeks where you get heavy webbed like Assault. Abbadon to only works right if it gank in Missions rather to tank. Speed up the time to kill and you will have to tank less.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.19 00:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: The Djego
But a Command are fare better in PVP, you got more usefull Skills, you can fly Hacs to and most Commands can hadle Level 4 Missions preaty good.

Afterall I think this T2 BS are a fail(in concept) they are not mutch better than Faction BS(that cost less) and have Skill requirments far to high. On the Skill Level you can use T2 BS you donīt need them any more.


Marauders are not PvP tools. Well you can try use them, but if you get jammed, you die. I agree, Command ships are more versatile for your skill training and money. I never said Marauders were made for PvP. I say they are expert mission tools for missioning.

Considering the price, how much does a faction BS cost theses days? 500, 600m?

Now, look at a Marauder: you pay it 800m. 200m difference.

I am not talking about a CNR VS Golem here, since this debate stays different.

I am talking about Navy Megathron VS Kronos and Navy Apoc VS Paladin. Let us not compare apples and oranges and keep the discussion with turret ships. Faction BSes have 1 more slot and more hitpoints, that pretty all. Ah, yes, they have a different paint color too.

For -200m- more ISK, you have:

+25% more cap (+5% if you count the third missing rig slot).
+Double cargohold
+50% less energy and ammo consumption for guns.
+4 Bonuses instead of 2, with added versatility against small ships, in one case even more cap, in the second tracking AND tanking bonuses (basically, a mix of a Megathron and Hyperion).
+More resists.
+More locking range.
+More speed.
+Can tractor at 40km.
+3, yes -three- free high slots if you don't want to use the ship as a salvager. Want to fit a NOS? Don't fit Tachyons/425mm, put a rig, or RCU. You will still have 8 turret damage + NOS/Neuts in the same ship.

Yes, they are not well suited for pvp because:

- Crap jamming resist
- Crap locking time
- Crap signature radius.

But even when looking at this, all weapons except XL are going to hit you for full damage already, so Signature radius doesn't change anything as long as you don't want to be probed.

Locking time: 15% less sensor strength. Doesn't really matter since a BS takes age to target small ships anyway. 15% more locking time won't allow you to fire before being locked and possibly scrambled by an interceptor at mid/close range. In fact, if the interceptor goes in 10km range, you will a double-web on him with a single module.

Jamming resist: sure, twice more changes to get jammed. But when you are jammed but a dedicated 4xmultispec/racial ECM ship, what are the chances for you to actually target anything? A Kitsune may permajam a Marauder. It looks like balance to me. Boost the Marauder a little more and you get ubersoloing PvP machines considering the current advantages they have.

I can't really argue for PvP since they are supposed not to be good, but PvE the benefits far outweights the drawbacks for me.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.19 00:27:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 19/12/2007 00:47:22
I buyed a Navy Apoc for my Alt. I would have buyed a Paladin if the Skill requirements are not that hard. I only focused on Navy Apoc instead of Gedon or Abbadon because this Ships need a hell of SP to being able to gank and Tank at the same Time. I could fly a Kronos(and I will buy one, but only to replace my Salvage Mega) as soon as I lerned the Skill. I donīt mind the money(ok im not rich atm) but I do mind Time to Train up Skills.

This Ships simply lack a real advantage for the cost and the needed Skills to the T1 Ships even in her intendet role. This Ships need more gank or more Web Range to get the Mission done realy faster than with a T1 or a Faction. The Ships are allready prenerfed to get killed by jammers or ECM Drones in PVP. They are not overpowert, they are underpowert considering the Price Tag and the needet Skills.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:29:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 19/12/2007 07:30:58
“Kronos/Hyperion: The damage output between an hyperion and a Kronos will be the same with the same number of Mag stabs,”
Kronos has better tracking so hits more which leads to more dmage. That and it overheats better with 3 heatsyncs leading it to do way more damage.



“if you can find a setup with 3x Mag stabs than can be permarun your large armor repairer II while shooting with antimatter, you are welcome to share it.”
I have a shield setup with 4 Mag stabs. I guess most people are not interested.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:39:00 - [24]
 

The Kronos is some ridiculously overpowered BS in PvP. Check this out:

4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (overloaded)
3x Offlined whatever to sink heat

MWD II
Web
ECCM
True Sansha Heavy Capacitor Booster

3x MFS II
2x Gallente Navy LAR
2x EANM II

2x Aux Nano Pump I

Needs a PG implant to fit.

1500 DPS, tanks 765 DPS. You can output the overloaded 1500 DPS for over two minutes before you risk burning a gun out. Has effectively two webs. No weakness to ECM. Only weakness is no warp disruptor, but in a gang you shouldn't need it. Solo you can swap out the ECCM or web for a disruptor.

Don Juanito
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:39:00 - [25]
 

Id like to see this analysis compared to a nightmare, which is now the best amarrian mission boat by far. heck, against most npc types vs angels when fit properly will perform better than a cruise raven due to the huge raw dps advantage it has.

Xequecal
Posted - 2007.12.19 07:51:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Don Juanito
Id like to see this analysis compared to a nightmare, which is now the best amarrian mission boat by far. heck, against most npc types vs angels when fit properly will perform better than a cruise raven due to the huge raw dps advantage it has.


Paladin is a better NPCer than Nightmare. It has far better resists against Sansha/Blood/Drone rats and much better capacitor.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.19 09:12:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/12/2007 07:30:58
“Kronos/Hyperion: The damage output between an hyperion and a Kronos will be the same with the same number of Mag stabs,”
Kronos has better tracking so hits more which leads to more dmage. That and it overheats better with 3 heatsyncs leading it to do way more damage.



“if you can find a setup with 3x Mag stabs than can be permarun your large armor repairer II while shooting with antimatter, you are welcome to share it.”
I have a shield setup with 4 Mag stabs. I guess most people are not interested.



Thanks for the correction about the Kronos.

And ofc I am interested in your passive setups Embarassed Sorry about that. I said somewhere one of your passive shield tank setups would outtank a Marauder

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.12.19 09:58:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Xequecal
Originally by: Don Juanito
Id like to see this analysis compared to a nightmare, which is now the best amarrian mission boat by far. heck, against most npc types vs angels when fit properly will perform better than a cruise raven due to the huge raw dps advantage it has.


Paladin is a better NPCer than Nightmare. It has far better resists against Sansha/Blood/Drone rats and much better capacitor.


Yeah, but it needs Marauder 5 to equal Nightmare in dps, and it doesn't get the tracking bonus the nightmare gets. Increased tank and cap are nice, but not really essential.

Jiraneth
Sons of Atheon
Posted - 2007.12.19 10:07:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Xequecal
Originally by: Don Juanito
Id like to see this analysis compared to a nightmare, which is now the best amarrian mission boat by far. heck, against most npc types vs angels when fit properly will perform better than a cruise raven due to the huge raw dps advantage it has.


Paladin is a better NPCer than Nightmare. It has far better resists against Sansha/Blood/Drone rats and much better capacitor.


Yeah, but it needs Marauder 5 to equal Nightmare in dps, and it doesn't get the tracking bonus the nightmare gets. Increased tank and cap are nice, but not really essential.


Well, it really depends on the situation, but since they both have 4x100% bonused Tachyons, they can reach same DPS output.

However, you fit modules more easily on the Nightmare, but your cap consumption is higher since active shield tank + lasers aren't liked by your Capacitor.

Tracking bonus is also nice, but doesn't matter close range since you have the web bonus on the Paladin. At longuer ranges, tracking bonus won't really make a difference anyway since you mostly hit anything past 20-25km. The tracking bonus will only shine between 10-25km, and only if you are lazy not trying to optimize your transversal on the Paladin after having killed ships orbiting below 10km.

On the other hand, you can salvage faster with the Paladin.

It is really a matter of taste here. If you don't have shield tanking skills, it's probably best to go for Paladin.

If you have them but not the Marauder skill requirements, then yes Nightmare is a good option as well.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.12.19 10:24:00 - [30]
 

There is nothing wrong with the Paladin. It can maintain a strong tank and damage without using any Cap Boosting...making it the perfect Marauder.


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