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Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:25:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jacinda Molanth

Forgive me Mr. Blackleaf;

Was not the entire Caldai-Gallente war fought to assure a free and independent Caldai place in the cosmos? Following your logic this war would have never happened. Perhaps it is my lack of knowledge about the Caldari people, but it seems to me that they would not surrender themselves as quickly as you might postulate. Nor do I see a ready acceptance to allow subjugation to the Amarr ways. I may be wrong but I believe the very fact that they fought for separation from the Federation shows a strong sense of self individualism. In many ways, I can see many similarities existing between the Caldari and the Minmatar.



Your forgiven.

Yes, the Caldari-Gallente war was fought for independence, but the Caldari would have simply bent over for the Federation had there been no chance of winning or benefit to be gained by resisting. How you follow my logic to conclude what you say is beyond me. Saying the State would be unwilling to take on the rest of the entire cluster, reclaimed and turned against them, and saying they would be unwilling to challenge the Federation Navy are two very different things.

As for surrender, sometimes it's the only sensible option. Like I said the State is made of corporations, they will do what will gain them and their employees the greatest benefit.

So IF (big if) it ever came to the cluster vs the State you can pretty much bet the State would have avoided the situation and joined the winning side early rather than resist and be enslaved.

Besides, all I was trying to point out was that were the Amarr to reclaim the Caldari it would not be the same as when they reclaimed the Minmatar. Bravo dodging that and picking at unrelated issues.

Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:52:00 - [32]
 

Seems everyone is forgetting the race which has dealt the biggest slap to the Amarr Empire in its entire history, save for our backhand a bit later on, of course.
The Jovians.

They already demonstrated their animosity towards the Empire by aiding the Minmatar rebels alongside the Federation.
What makes you think they would not get involved again if the Empire chose to attack the Republic and the Federation? After all, liberal societies are the ones where knowledge and information are free to flow, and that is what Jovians value most. Not to mention that the Jove would certainly not sit idly and watch the rest of the cluster fall into the hands of the very same entity which tried to agress them once already.

So you slaver lot can take your dreams about Amarrian supremacy and stuff them. Logic dictates otherwise. The glory days are over. Wake up and invest in some humility. It may prove to be a wise investment in the long run.

Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
Posted - 2007.12.18 17:00:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 18/12/2007 17:03:46
nb: Ontaku Oroa posted whilst I was composing the below.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
...all I was trying to point out was that were the Amarr to reclaim the Caldari it would not be the same as when they reclaimed the Minmatar...

Indeed Daelin Blackleaf, Amarrian Imperialism was, essentially, bullying.

I have little doubt that if the Gallente and Caldari were in a less-developed state on their first encounter then they would have attempted to reclaim them too. The encounter must have been a little disheartening for the 'master' race. Still, after the Jovians kicked their butt and the Minmatar rebelled too, they've had to change their strategy a bit.

To all those who consider the Amarrians peace-seeking, I say that, given the nature of the theocratic state, the only peace they want is the Pax Amarria - all bow down to their god, or be enslaved.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2007.12.18 17:21:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Magnus Nordir on 18/12/2007 17:28:25
Originally by: Kade Jeekin
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 18/12/2007 17:03:46
nb: Ontaku Oroa posted whilst I was composing the below.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
...all I was trying to point out was that were the Amarr to reclaim the Caldari it would not be the same as when they reclaimed the Minmatar...

Indeed Daelin Blackleaf, Amarrian Imperialism was, essentially, bullying.

I have little doubt that if the Gallente and Caldari were in a less-developed state on their first encounter then they would have attempted to reclaim them too. The encounter must have been a little disheartening for the 'master' race. Still, after the Jovians kicked their butt and the Minmatar rebelled too, they've had to change their strategy a bit.

To all those who consider the Amarrians peace-seeking, I say that, given the nature of the theocratic state, the only peace they want is the Pax Amarria - all bow down to their god, or be enslaved.


Oh please...all the minmatar managed to do was to take advantage of the Amarrian defeat against the jovians, who had only won one battle, not the war.

And all the Amarrians want is to deliver the Word of God and save your pathetic souls. It's truly honorable and altruistic of them, and the least you could do is to stop acting like you deserve to live without them and One True God. If the Amarrian society is the only one to realize that there is only One True God, then it's the duty of the rest of us to integrate into that society, not fight it! Have you no sense of piety? God knows the role of the matarian people, why wouldn't you just listen?

Go with God.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:32:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Damian Gar'eck

So, it has come to pass that a new chapter will be written in my families history, for I will free them....whatever the cost.


It saddens me that yet another Matari is willing to sell his soul, murder thousands of innocents and do all things God has forbidden man to achieve his own selfish goals. I will pray for you.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:35:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Damian Gar'eck

So, it has come to pass that a new chapter will be written in my families history, for I will free them....whatever the cost.


It saddens me that yet another Matari is willing to sell his soul, murder thousands of innocents and do all things God has forbidden man to achieve his own selfish goals. I will pray for you.


Likewise, your soul is in my prayers. It is my deepest wish that you matarians would finally come to embrace the Word of God and save your souls. It saddens me to see what you're doing to yourselves.

Tablaren
Knights of Kador
The Black Armada
Posted - 2007.12.18 22:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ontaku Oroa
Seems everyone is forgetting the race which has dealt the biggest slap to the Amarr Empire in its entire history, save for our backhand a bit later on, of course.
The Jovians.

They already demonstrated their animosity towards the Empire by aiding the Minmatar rebels alongside the Federation.
What makes you think they would not get involved again if the Empire chose to attack the Republic and the Federation? After all, liberal societies are the ones where knowledge and information are free to flow, and that is what Jovians value most. Not to mention that the Jove would certainly not sit idly and watch the rest of the cluster fall into the hands of the very same entity which tried to agress them once already.

So you slaver lot can take your dreams about Amarrian supremacy and stuff them. Logic dictates otherwise. The glory days are over. Wake up and invest in some humility. It may prove to be a wise investment in the long run.


Yet the Jove also aided the State in fighting the Federation.

What astounds me is you havent seen or heard from a single member of this race in over a hundred years yet you believe you know how they think or the way they would react.

I hate to break this to you but they destroyed those gates for a reason, their ambassadors haveleft the cluster, and they've not been heard of since.

It leads me to the conclusion that
1. They are pursueing a policiy of Isolationism and will hope that bad things pass them by.
2. They have been so devastated by disease they had to restrict movement through their space.
3. They have someone else that's scaring them and they need to delegate all resources to that threat.


Now think of it this way, if the jove hated amarr... why didn't they take advantage of the first battle? Why not drive home the victory so that noone would ever oppose them again?

And if the Jovians really did care for the matari slaves, why did they only help enough to destabilize the empire just enough that a fraction of the slaves be set free?


My friend, the Jovians took the easy way out. Taking the easy way out is usually also a sign of fear, for they had to fear something in order to stop helping those people they started too, to allow an opponent who attacked them to recover, and to isolate themselves from the cluster.


You also forget that the Jovians lost a fair number of their fleet that met the Imperial Squadrom. As we do not know the size of their fleet, lets use what little we know about their population base. They are few, they are sick, and they are dieing. Losing those men probably cost them dearly. but that is merely speculation.


Anyway, you should apply as a strategic analysist for the Republic Fleet. Or perhaps with your extensive knowledge of other people you could become an advisor.


But anyway bottom line, if it came to war, the only ones who would come to your aid are the pirates you like to keep hiring.

Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.12.18 23:16:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 18/12/2007 23:17:38
Well mr. Tablaren, for someone who is accusing others of presuming too much about a race they know little about, you certainly are full of... presumptions.

Not only do you seem to have insight into the minds and motivations of the Jovians, but also in the state of their society and military! Impressive.

Now, why don't you leave speculation to those who at least have enough knowledge to make the so called "informed assumptions"? It is common knowledge to those who have actually taken time to study the available material concerning the Jovians that it is extremely likely they have an advanced version of our Jumpdrives, which allows them free access to any star system without the need to use jumpgates.

Also, they lost only a third of their fleet at Vak'Atioth, a fleet composed mainly of a single Mothership analog and several wings of frigates. Frigates, mr. Tablaren. Not cruisers or battleships with hundreds and thousands of crew onboard, but frigates, most likely operated by a single individual.

But I digress. Fact is, the Amarr cannot stop us. If they could, they would have done so already. Their society is decaying, splintered between bickering nobles all vying for power. Their systems are many, but that makes it all the harder for their navy to defend them. Like a ponderous, aged beast, they roar and flail about to cover up signs of age that have beset them.

As for the Caldari... I agree with others who have correctly appraised independency as the primary drive of their society. I will not say "your" society, because you do not really seem Caldari-like at all. You would sooner bow and scurry under Amarr boots than be adjusted to Gallente ways, yet another paradox in your line of arguments.

I for one support Caldari independence. You do not. You dream some fantasy about the Amarr empire being a haven of humanity and equal opportunities. This shows not only that you are hopelessly deluded by their propaganda; but also that you are quite ignorant both of their history and of the nature of their society.

Both these things can be gleamed from many archives and records available publicly. I sincerely advise you to read them and realize what the Empire really stands for.

For you claiming the things about the Empire that you do makes about as much sense as me claiming that stars are made of ice.

Gel Kolea
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2007.12.19 01:02:00 - [39]
 

I can't possibly be the only one curious how a slave ejected in garbage became a pod pilot out of nowhere.

Methinks someone has been taking a few too many blue pills as of late.

Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.12.19 08:26:00 - [40]
 

I can tell my personal story, which is simmilar. I wasn't ejected through the garbage chute, I stole an escape pod. I was a young man then, barely into my twenties and when I was rescued, I was first introduced like anyone else into one of the rehabilitation programmes that were active at that time. I quickly chose to sign up with my Tribe's Security force, first serving as a gunner's assist (that's maintenance of the loading and gyro-mechanisms on a combat vessel) since I had some experience with machinery - I was a slave on a holder transport.
Eventually I rose through the ranks and in mere ten years I was selected as a candidate for the Tribe's pod pilot programme. The rest is history.

Anyway, it's not impossible for a former slave to become a capsuleer. Especially not in the Republic. The training itself does not require an inordinate amount of time - even less if the subject has prior experience with spaceships.

Wanoah
Minmatar
Msana Foundation
Posted - 2007.12.20 16:29:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Gel Kolea
I can't possibly be the only one curious how a slave ejected in garbage became a pod pilot out of nowhere.

Methinks someone has been taking a few too many blue pills as of late.


Well, without taxing too many brain cells, I would imagine that there was some kind of time interval between the garbage chute and graduation. Just a hunch. I know the guy said 'recently' but hell, it doesn't seem like five minutes since I was fresh out of Pator Tech, so the word is pretty damn flexible in my book!

Xauxau
Caldari
Posted - 2007.12.20 18:19:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Tablaren

What astounds me is you havent seen or heard from a single member of this race in over a hundred years yet you believe you know how they think or the way they would react.



Jovians are still around. Sightings are just vanishingly rare in Empire Space, and non-existent outside their own facilities.

If you make a habit of visiting the Impro or Genolution stations that pepper Caldari or Minmatar space, and make some discreet inquiries, though, you have a reasonable chance of actually seeing one.

Originally by: Tablaren

My friend, the Jovians took the easy way out. Taking the easy way out is usually also a sign of fear, for they had to fear something in order to stop helping those people they started too, to allow an opponent who attacked them to recover, and to isolate themselves from the cluster.



You're assuming the Jovians share Amarr psychology. They don't. Almost nothing the Jovians have done over the past several thousand years makes sense by the standards of baseline humans. That's because they do not share those standards. Their progenitors edited unwanted emotions out of their psyche, and added new ones. There is ample evidence the Jovians simply do not experience fear, anger, hate or greed...at least not the way an Amarr or Caldari does.

Exactly what motivates them day to day, let alone their government policy at the highest level, is a mystery. We don't even know if "government policy" is a meaningful concept to a Jovian. We only know what they tell us, which is that they are currently few in number and that those remaining _might_ be dying out. And these "facts" could be a lie. Or even a conceptual misunderstanding.

And far from isolating themselves, they have indirectly encouraged the emergence of independent Caldari and Minmatar states. They've built dozens of commercial space stations across empire space. They've licensed out the cloning and inphomorph technology that make capsules possible. They've even begun to sell, of all things, garden variety consumer electronics. They have intentionally introduced dramatic and permanent changes to the way our cultures approach space travel and to the entire cluster's economy.

All this after _completely_ ignoring us for MILLENNIA. Why the recent change? Who knows.

We can't even be sure of exactly WHAT they've done, let alone why. For all we know every Neurogamer II console that rolls off an Impro assembly line serves as a remote platform for some obscure Jovian hobby. Gives new meaning to the old Caldari saying, "Let the buyer beware."


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