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blankseplocked I think it would be good if there were less NPCs
 
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.15 15:38:00 - [1]
 

Read Bold bits for TL:DR

Hello,

I think it would be good for Eve if the number of NPCs were greatly reduced. I think this would reduce server load, and also be more in tune with the "Harsh Cold Universe" that Eve is all about.

E.g. A new character is easily capable of taking on several NPCs all at once. In some cases, a small weapon like a 150mm railgun with lead rounds can one-shot small rats. This does not seem realistic within the game universe. I don't think this should be the case. I think that 1 or 2 frigate sized rats should be a more serious threat to a new player's ship. Same for larger ships. When 4 NPC cruisers turn up, you can lol at their puny damage, instead of thinking you should have brought a friend.


So instead of there being 15 frigate rats in a mission, there are 3, but these are far tougher than rats currently are. These rats would be the equivalent of a player ship with minimal equipment and skills.

E.g. Blood Raider ships
Smallest should be equivalent to a player Impairor fitted with civilian gatling lasers, civilian afterburner and armour repairers, flown by the equivalent of Amarr Frigate 1, Small Energy Turret 1, and no other skills.

Next up would be equivalent to a player Executioner fitted with 2 Dual Light Pulse Laser 1s, 1mn Afterburner, Small Armour Repairer, flown by the equivalent of Amarr Frigate 2, Small Energy Turret 2, Repair Systems 1, Afterburner 1.

Then you'd have an equivalent of a player Punisher, fitted with 3 Medium Pulse Laser 1s, 1mn Afterburner, web, small armour repairer, flown by the equivalent of Amarr Frigate 3, Small Energy Turret 3, etc. etc.

Really tough NPCs should use the officer/deadspace/faction items.

So NPCs should have capabilities that rival or in some cases exceed players.
Where the capsuleer pilot's edge comes in is all the other skills such as engineering, capacitor management, gunnery skills other than basic operation - sharpshooter/surgical strike/motion prediction etc.

The NPCs would have greater amounts of salvage and loot per wreck than currently, so overall amounts remain similar. They shouldn't have Tech1 loot, only named, so that player manufactured items have some point.

I think that this would be more appropriate to Eve. Other games have players being able to crush whole legions of peon NPCs due to their godlike stats, but I don't think Eve should be like this. Making NPCs tougher and deadlier would seem to fit better. A capsuleer is special, but not that special. And fits with the harsh universe, where everyone and everything could kill you.

I think this might also reduce server load, by reducing the amount of information needed to be sent. 4 NPCs shooting for 5 damage each replaced by 1 NPC shooting for 20.

Saraith Narr
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Posted - 2007.12.15 15:40:00 - [2]
 

Tarminic, I choose you!

Krellian Pendragon
Posted - 2007.12.15 15:45:00 - [3]
 

Lol, you got some good points, but still........Give the new players a chance!!
The fight against the other players, namely PVP is already harsh enough as it should be!!

Myaccount is old,,, but im sorta new to the game, since i never had much time to play,, AT ALL.. Finally i am back, and right now i am enjoying the PVE and rat hunting IMMENSLY,,,doing missions and such,, i think its just the way it should be,, easier pve and much harder pvp for those who like the real challange,,

so there is something that fits everybodies tastes,, i humbly hope.
Cheers!

schurem
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2007.12.15 15:53:00 - [4]
 

ideally the challenge, loot and bounty should remain about the same as is now, but the numbers of rats should go down. CCP already did a bit of that, but especially for missions, they should (imo) go way further with that.

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.15 16:52:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: schurem
ideally the challenge, loot and bounty should remain about the same as is now, but the numbers of rats should go down. CCP already did a bit of that, but especially for missions, they should (imo) go way further with that.


Exactly. The overall amounts of risk and rewards are equivalent, all that happens is that 1 NPC vs 1 player is less of a pushover.

Originally by: Saraith Narr
Tarminic, I choose you!


I'm not Tarminic

Originally by: Krellian Pendragon
Lol, you got some good points, but still........Give the new players a chance!!
The fight against the other players, namely PVP is already harsh enough as it should be!!


It wouldn't be much or any harder, it would just appear harder. New players wouldn't be at any more actual risk, just their perception of the risk would be different.

1 vs 1 seems harder than 1 vs 5, even when the damage done and received is the same.

N1fty
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2007.12.15 16:58:00 - [6]
 

Basically what you want to do is take the DPS/Hitpoints of a spawn of 15 rats and translate it into a spawn of 5. Shouldn't be hard.


I always thought it unrealistic that I can take on a very large number of NPC rats but a single pod pilot in a BS is a greater threat.

Come on, pod pilots are better than non-pod pilots like the rats are, but were surely not 15x better!

Krellian Pendragon
Posted - 2007.12.15 16:59:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Krellian Pendragon on 15/12/2007 17:04:08
Ok, so correct me if im wrong, but what i understand from your post is;

There should be LESS rats to fight (at once),,, BUT they should be stronger instead,, yes?

(Very basically,,,like;;; instead of 3 weak rats against a single player, there should be 1 rat that is 3x times stronger than each previous individual rat?)... with the same amount of rewards either way.....?

IF so; than i have got nothing against it...

i just dont want the game to get any harder/easier than it already is, is all im sayin'* :D


Oh, and sorry for my ''clumsy'' posts, had too much beer today, literally....

Sabian Treehugger
Minmatar
Self Proclaimed Elite Griefers and Gankers
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:19:00 - [8]
 

i love it

less lag,less work when looting and salvaging

it's allready a bit odd you have to sometimes fight more than 10 battleships with just one

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:29:00 - [9]
 

I like.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:34:00 - [10]
 

Love the idea, it's also would help lower DB calls. (less cans to open, less NPC's on grid...ect ect)


Roche Pso
Gallente
Deltole Research Labs
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:35:00 - [11]
 

Haven't they already done this as part of need4speed?

I remember a dev saying something about it many months ago

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:39:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Roche Pso
Haven't they already done this as part of need4speed?

I remember a dev saying something about it many months ago


I remember them saying it, however, I've not seen any changes to lvl4 missions.Crying or Very sad

Firkragg
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:44:00 - [13]
 

I always figured that setting up rats to be tougher but give better rewards would help alot. Especially if you made them basically npc versions of player ships so that fighting them in a pvp setup wouldnt be a stupid idea. This means that belt ratters can then be pvp ready giving better fights to all.

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.15 17:50:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sabian Treehugger
less lag,less work when looting and salvaging


I think so. Also, the people who don't bother looting or salvaging leave fewer wrecks, meaning fewer entities that the system has to process timers for, so this might also reduce system load. I don't know if this is true, since I'm not a programmer, but it seems like it would.

Not looting/salvaging so you can run missions faster seems antisocial and selfish to me if it creates lag for others.

Less wrecks, but more value in them might affect the viability of being a salvage collector, collecting the wrecks others leave behind, by making wreck fields harder to find. Something that needs to be considered.

Originally by: Krellian Pendragon

There should be LESS rats to fight (at once),,, BUT they should be stronger instead,, yes?

(Very basically,,,like;;; instead of 3 weak rats against a single player, there should be 1 rat that is 3x times stronger than each previous individual rat?)... with the same amount of rewards either way.....?


You got it. Same risk/rewards, but fewer objects involved.

Originally by: N1fty
Basically what you want to do is take the DPS/Hitpoints of a spawn of 15 rats and translate it into a spawn of 5.


Yes. It's not as simple as 1 rat being 5 times as tough and doing 5 times the damage, because of the effects of attrition of the weaker rats, but it's the same principle.

e.g. against a player that does 500dps, 5 rats with 1000hps takes 10 seconds to destroy. If they do 100dps each, then that's a total of 3000 damage done over that 10 seconds. Compare that to a rat that has 5000hps, but does 500dps. Still just 10 seconds to destroy, but it's done 5000 damage over that time. Equivalent would be 3000hp rat doing 500dps or 5000hp rat doing 300dps.

Further to realism, the pirate factions have various ships and modules that are quite formidable, but the NPC behaviour and abilities doesn't come close to representing this, there's a credibility gap. E.g. the Nightmare is a fearsome battleship in the hands of a player, esp. when fitted with lots of faction modules, but the NPC Sansha's battleships are rather ineffective in comparison.

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I like.


\O/ whee! a famous bad idea stomper approves! I win!!!

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2007.12.15 18:17:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Neon Genesis on 15/12/2007 18:17:08

Agreed on all points. It fits with all the other optimisations like a glove.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2007.12.15 18:22:00 - [16]
 

I agree that there should be fewer NPCs in missions, Ive been saying it for months. But making existing ones tougher isnt the greatest idea, since not everyone has eleventy billion SP and new players would probably not be able to kill stuff if even the basic frigates were a lot stronger. Better to have larger numbers of bigger ships, e.g. get rid of the frigates in L3/L4 missions and add a cruiser/BS or two per spawn to make up for it.

Daelorn
Posted - 2007.12.15 18:24:00 - [17]
 

Agreed & at the live dev blog it was stated that NPC's would have all T1 loot removed from the loot tables (I think, I was tired)

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.15 19:28:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Krellian Pendragon
Lol, you got some good points, but still........Give the new players a chance!!
The fight against the other players, namely PVP is already harsh enough as it should be!!

Myaccount is old,,, but im sorta new to the game, since i never had much time to play,, AT ALL.. Finally i am back, and right now i am enjoying the PVE and rat hunting IMMENSLY,,,doing missions and such,, i think its just the way it should be,, easier pve and much harder pvp for those who like the real challange,,

so there is something that fits everybodies tastes,, i humbly hope.
Cheers!


Level 1 mission rats are not a challenge to a 100k non-learning SP character in a kestrel.

I endorse the OPs idea.

And I'd like smarter rats as well as tougher ones. Rats that can use a tactic other than "slowboat to optimal and orbit".

Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
Posted - 2007.12.15 19:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kathryn Dougans
his does not seem realistic within the game universe. I don't think this should be the case. I think that 1 or 2 frigate sized rats should be a more serious threat to a new player's ship. Same for larger ships. When 4 NPC cruisers turn up, you can lol at their puny damage, instead of thinking you should have brought a friend.


Thank you for your worthless input, but comparing Eve to what would be "realistic" gets ignored by the devs. Its a game for a reason, it doesnt have to be realistic.

Admiral Annihilation
Posted - 2007.12.15 19:36:00 - [20]
 

I think because the rats don't give out exp when you kill them to level up, CCP saw no reason to make them any stronger then say "level 20", when a pod pilot flying a BS is about "level 40+". I also support the TC and hope CCP would make some harder rats out there (the officers are a joke to kill also).

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2007.12.15 20:06:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Roche Pso
Haven't they already done this as part of need4speed?

I remember a dev saying something about it many months ago


They said they were going to, but not much changed as far as I could tell.


 

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