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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.12.11 20:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.11 20:58:00 - [2]
 

Well, I think it has to do with the fact that a very long time ago, CCP claimed that Laser had a built in damage bonus. Because of this built in damage bonus, Lasers should be roughly equal to ACs and Blasters with their racial bonuses applied (RoF or Dmg).

Now in order to pay for this built-in damage bonus, lasers are supposed to be capacitor hogging beast, making them not-viable to fit on other ships (along with fitting), and amarr ships get a reduction to capacitor need.

To put it another way, you could switch around the bonuses by subtracting 25% dmg and 50% cap use from lasers, and then change the bonus on amarrian boats to +5% dmg per lvl. Same end result, deferent method of getting there.

This brings up the question, do lasers have a built in damage bonus? I think it is pretty clear that they do not. IF you change around the bonuses like I mentioned to do, you will see that lasers are sub-par to racial counterparts in nearly every-signle-way while requiring the most cap and most fitting.

Chaplain Veritas
Amarr
The Aduro Protocol
Posted - 2007.12.11 20:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Chaplain Veritas on 11/12/2007 21:01:31
yeah it's been said many a time, the cap use reduction bonus is one of the things gimping amarr, and is also part of the "lasers are the real problem" side of the arguement. abaddon performs on par with other good BS's but is shackled to heavy charge poppin'. imho if there were a built in cap reduction on lasers (making it so i didn't have to go replenish my cap charge supply so often in the abby) and swapped out cap use bonuses for REAL bonuses that would go a LONG way to helping amarr ships out. let's face it, why does the Apoc suck so bad except for endurance mission running? look at it's bonuses ffs.

and why do amarr ships *cough*khanid*cough* that don't use lasers rock in general?

like shin said, lasers are a relic of an old paradigm that doesn't seem to be in play anymore.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:05:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that a very long time ago, CCP claimed that Laser had a built in damage bonus. Because of this built in damage bonus, Lasers should be roughly equal to ACs and Blasters with their racial bonuses applied (RoF or Dmg).

Now in order to pay for this built-in damage bonus, lasers are supposed to be capacitor hogging beast, making them not-viable to fit on other ships (along with fitting), and amarr ships get a reduction to capacitor need.

To put it another way, you could switch around the bonuses by subtracting 25% dmg and 50% cap use from lasers, and then change the bonus on amarrian boats to +5% dmg per lvl. Same end result, deferent method of getting there.

This brings up the question, do lasers have a built in damage bonus? I think it is pretty clear that they do not. IF you change around the bonuses like I mentioned to do, you will see that lasers are sub-par to racial counterparts in nearly every-signle-way while requiring the most cap and most fitting.


The problem is ccp has dug a deep ****hole and are sinking deeper and deeper. Instead of fixing the core problem, ie fixing lasers, they are overpowering the new ships (like abaddon) so they can perform on par with other races. What this does is, when the day comes when they have to face the fact that the old ships need fixing theyll have to nerf the new ships or theyll be overpowered if they only fix lasers. Its stupid. They should have fixed lasers a long time ago. Now their work is getting harder and harder.

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: shinsushi
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that a very long time ago, CCP claimed that Laser had a built in damage bonus. Because of this built in damage bonus, Lasers should be roughly equal to ACs and Blasters with their racial bonuses applied (RoF or Dmg).

Now in order to pay for this built-in damage bonus, lasers are supposed to be capacitor hogging beast, making them not-viable to fit on other ships (along with fitting), and amarr ships get a reduction to capacitor need.

To put it another way, you could switch around the bonuses by subtracting 25% dmg and 50% cap use from lasers, and then change the bonus on amarrian boats to +5% dmg per lvl. Same end result, deferent method of getting there.

This brings up the question, do lasers have a built in damage bonus? I think it is pretty clear that they do not. IF you change around the bonuses like I mentioned to do, you will see that lasers are sub-par to racial counterparts in nearly every-signle-way while requiring the most cap and most fitting.


The problem is ccp has dug a deep ****hole and are sinking deeper and deeper. Instead of fixing the core problem, ie fixing lasers, they are overpowering the new ships (like abaddon) so they can perform on par with other races. What this does is, when the day comes when they have to face the fact that the old ships need fixing theyll have to nerf the new ships or theyll be overpowered if they only fix lasers. Its stupid. They should have fixed lasers a long time ago. Now their work is getting harder and harder.


I agree.

The biggest issue at play here is the Armageddon. It has and always be miles above the apoc. Because of the vast difference in those two ships, lasers couldn't find a happy middleground without being OMGWTFoverpowered or LOL on one ship or the other. Then the HArbinger and Abaddon came into play and just added to the crap pile.

I think the harb and abaddon would be easy adjustments, but the geddon isn't. It might just be easier at this point to scrap the Useless -10% cap/level bonus.

Enjackah
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:18:00 - [6]
 

I love these threads... no really I do... honestly...

The Abaddon's capacitor capacity makes up for the lack of a laser cap use bonus, while the Armageddons really needs that bonus due to it's high rate of fire and smaller cap size.

Abaddon base cap: 6375
Armageddon base cap: 5313

Madla Mafia
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:20:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Madla Mafia on 11/12/2007 21:20:52
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Enjackah
I love these threads... no really I do... honestly...

The Abaddon's capacitor capacity makes up for the lack of a laser cap use bonus, while the Armageddons really needs that bonus due to it's high rate of fire and smaller cap size.

Abaddon base cap: 6375
Armageddon base cap: 5313


Uhm youre forgetting that abaddon has 8 turrets and geddon 7 and alot of other things. You cant just compare cap size lol.

You know a geddon runs out of cap after 6mins of firing megapulses, abaddon after 3mins. You know how long a megathron can fire neutron blaster IIs? 27min. Yeah lasers are borked, cap ship bonus is a lie and add omni tank crap to it and you know our weapon system sucks badly. You know it, I know it, vegetable-lasagne knows it. mkay?

Bruce Deorum
Minmatar
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:40:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 11/12/2007 21:59:50
The cap usage bonus is makes real sense only for the Geddon which has also the RoF bonus. Without it it would be broken IMHO and ppl will lose more than they would gain by training up to BS V.

Energy turrets are so demanding to fit, that this alone prevents ppl from using them. Actually no-one would use large energy turrets as part of a good dmg dealing BS, cause the get more than usable bonuses for their own weapon systems for less fitting req.Razz

The "no need for reloading" argument is nice - considering prolonged fights, but wait: an Abaddon with 7x Tach II + 2x HS will cap out in 2.5 minutes and after that...it takes ages to recharge, while a Mega will practically never cap out just by firing its 425 IIs. Yes, the Abby out-dps the Mega, but buffer tank resistances are USUALLY way better against the EM+thermal combination compared to the Expl+Kin ones. Also the 40 charges each 425 contains will last for ~224secs ~ 4minutes given a top RoF of 5.6sec with 2x Mag stabs II. So before both ships cap out, the Mega will take the dmg lead, since after the 2.5 minutes barrier, the Abby can perma-fire just 2x Tachyons Shocked
Now add a MWD to both, and...ShockedShockedShocked


Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


Yes and no. Abaddon works because of its resist bonus. However, making it work with Tachs or any form of long range weaponry is a PITA because the cap reduc bonus is missing.

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.11 23:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Enjackah
I love these threads... no really I do... honestly...

The Abaddon's capacitor capacity makes up for the lack of a laser cap use bonus, while the Armageddons really needs that bonus due to it's high rate of fire and smaller cap size.

Abaddon base cap: 6375
Armageddon base cap: 5313


So... lets run down the pros and cons of lasers vs other turrets..

Pulse Lasers
Pros:
Best Optimal Range
Ammo reload/change


Cons:
Worst Cap use
Lowest Effective Dmg to the majority of ships
Lowest Raw tracking
Lowest fall-off(nessecitating more ammo changing)
Worst fitting
Worst downsizing options

Blasters
Pros:
Highest Raw damage
highest Raw tracking
Highest Effective Damage

Cons:
Shortest range
Lowest effective tracking


ACs
Pros:
Selectable damage types
No cap use
Easiest Fitting
Highest effective tracking
Best fall-off range

Cons:
Operates fully in fall-off
Worst Raw damage

Now if you take out everything thats middle of the line (middle raw dmg/tracking/fitting/ect..), you can see thats ACs> Blasters > Pulses in a very easy way.

What makes it worse is that amarrian laser boats live and die by their lasers. They are not versatile, they do not actively tank, and they are not fast. The buffer tank in hopes that lasers do their job.

Surreptitious
Isk Sink Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.11 23:15:00 - [12]
 

You get my vote for best forum poster. This and the ECM/TD ones are great. Keep pointing out CCP's ineptitude, love it.

Syrup

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2007.12.12 01:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Surreptitious
You get my vote for best forum poster. This and the ECM/TD ones are great. Keep pointing out CCP's ineptitude, love it.

Syrup


Good to hear. Everyone else hates me. YARRRR!!

Durente Galaica
Amarr
Fortunate Few
Posted - 2007.12.12 02:48:00 - [14]
 

If my lasers did more than 2 damage types that would be the greatest boost Amarr has ever seen. Imagine what it must feel like to swap out damage types to probe an enemy for weaknesses. I cannot tell you what it would be like, but I imagine to to be glorious.

MysteriousJade
Posted - 2007.12.12 02:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Bruce Deorum
Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 11/12/2007 21:59:50
The cap usage bonus is makes real sense only for the Geddon which has also the RoF bonus. Without it it would be broken IMHO and ppl will lose more than they would gain by training up to BS V.

Energy turrets are so demanding to fit, that this alone prevents ppl from using them. Actually no-one would use large energy turrets as part of a good dmg dealing BS, cause the get more than usable bonuses for their own weapon systems for less fitting req.Razz

The "no need for reloading" argument is nice - considering prolonged fights, but wait: an Abaddon with 7x Tach II + 2x HS will cap out in 2.5 minutes and after that...it takes ages to recharge, while a Mega will practically never cap out just by firing its 425 IIs. Yes, the Abby out-dps the Mega, but buffer tank resistances are USUALLY way better against the EM+thermal combination compared to the Expl+Kin ones. Also the 40 charges each 425 contains will last for ~224secs ~ 4minutes given a top RoF of 5.6sec with 2x Mag stabs II. So before both ships cap out, the Mega will take the dmg lead, since after the 2.5 minutes barrier, the Abby can perma-fire just 2x Tachyons Shocked
Now add a MWD to both, and...ShockedShockedShocked




you hit the balls, nothing to add

Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
Posted - 2007.12.12 06:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


abaddon can TANK and do uber dmg... lol since when ?

it can do SICK ammouts of dps and be a buffer or TANK and do allmost no dmg.

plate setups arent really tank :P

and if you try and fit 8x mega pulse + 2x rep tank... you need 3-4 injectors to keep it going :P

some ppl fit 2 injectors allready on a plate fit.

so.. no the cap bonus is not out of place on some ships. would be funney if the took away geddons bonus and added dmg. that ship would be out of cap in 5 volleys i guess.

Rialtor
Amarr
Yarrrateers
Posted - 2007.12.12 06:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Riho
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


abaddon can TANK and do uber dmg... lol since when ?

it can do SICK ammouts of dps and be a buffer or TANK and do allmost no dmg.

plate setups arent really tank :P

and if you try and fit 8x mega pulse + 2x rep tank... you need 3-4 injectors to keep it going :P

some ppl fit 2 injectors allready on a plate fit.

so.. no the cap bonus is not out of place on some ships. would be funney if the took away geddons bonus and added dmg. that ship would be out of cap in 5 volleys i guess.


Perhaps but a geddon without the 10% bonus and a dmg and rof bonus would be a laser ship I'd love to fly :). The amount of carnage it could put out would be a site to see while it has cap.

Julio Torres
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2007.12.12 08:00:00 - [18]
 

For fleet tasks, the Abaddon is worthless thanks to its lack of cap reduction bonus.
Fit it with 7x T2 Tach and the cap may last over a minute.
(But the Apoc really shines in this role)

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.12 09:21:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Durente Galaica
If my lasers did more than 2 damage types that would be the greatest boost Amarr has ever seen. Imagine what it must feel like to swap out damage types to probe an enemy for weaknesses. I cannot tell you what it would be like, but I imagine to to be glorious.


Wouldn't it?

I would rather see EM as an acceptable trade-off aswell, rather than the bane of all laser ships too. For what possible reason are amarr laser ships nerfed so hard?

Really, maybe some CCP member found an Amarrian in bed with his wife or something.

me bored
Posted - 2007.12.12 09:29:00 - [20]
 

I gather that lasers used to be so powerful that every race started using them and ccp increased their cap usage and created the amarr bonus as a reaction.

I wasn't around at the time though and may be talking out of my ass.

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.12 09:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: me bored
I gather that lasers used to be so powerful that every race started using them and ccp increased their cap usage and created the amarr bonus as a reaction.

I wasn't around at the time though and may be talking out of my ass.


Non-stacking nerfed, oh and radio used to be pretty damn good too. Geddons used to melt ships on approach.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.12.12 10:09:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


Replacing the bonus with a good bonus and halving cap use all round soundes good, some ships that have proven to be quite okay, like the arma and harby only need a sucky bonus, the kings of crap like the apoc and omen, maller and prop needs a kick ass bonus.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.12.12 10:11:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: me bored
I gather that lasers used to be so powerful that every race started using them and ccp increased their cap usage and created the amarr bonus as a reaction.

I wasn't around at the time though and may be talking out of my ass.


Actually just about right, exept the amarr bonus have been here forever, and they just nerfed the lasers in general, the cap use have been unchanged.

mallina
Caldari
SUNDERING
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2007.12.12 11:04:00 - [24]
 

Wow Lyria, you never give up do you? Using your alt shinsushi to agree with you all the time dosen't do you any favours, either, though it's pretty funny when you think about it.

Saying that "Abaddon is best cause some people and/or EFT said so so all amarr ships should be like it" (which is essentially what you said) makes little logical sense and is based entirely on your opinion or skewed facts, not that anything that you ever spewed out wasn't.

Personally, I don't like the Abaddon because it dosen't have a Laser Cap Use bonus, among other things. It's a good fleet ship, but with such a small cargobay for Boosters (less than the Geddon, in fact) it's effective combat time is really rather short-lived.

Joie Mains
Vindicator A Team
Posted - 2007.12.12 11:14:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


cos all tier3 bs got wery not tipical bonuses to there races

Paulo Damarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 11:21:00 - [26]
 

@ Lyria Skydancer

How many different whine threads are you going to start? 3 different topics on the first 2 pages so far. why dont you save some time and just post a thread saying "EVE sucks and everything needs nerfing" instead of doing it one perceived issue at a time.

Enjackah
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:01:00 - [27]
 

Please keep making these threads. It makes people think Amarr sucks.

We will keep burning through both your shield tanks and armor tanks as EM is always your lowest resist.

Thank you.

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: mallina
Wow Lyria, you never give up do you? Using your alt shinsushi to agree with you all the time dosen't do you any favours, either, though it's pretty funny when you think about it.

Saying that "Abaddon is best cause some people and/or EFT said so so all amarr ships should be like it" (which is essentially what you said) makes little logical sense and is based entirely on your opinion or skewed facts, not that anything that you ever spewed out wasn't.

Personally, I don't like the Abaddon because it dosen't have a Laser Cap Use bonus, among other things. It's a good fleet ship, but with such a small cargobay for Boosters (less than the Geddon, in fact) it's effective combat time is really rather short-lived.


I am not Lyria's alt, its pretty obvious that we have differing views on many things and dissimilar writing styles. Also, Lyria is quite a bit nicer than I am.

No, the abaddon is considered better than the geddon due to a much large HP buffer and more turret DPS, along with much more fitting room. Of course if your sitting there trying to tank gate-guns that might be a different story, but then agains who really cares about ganking noobs @ gates?

Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2007.12.12 20:10:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Riho
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?




abaddon can TANK and do uber dmg... lol since when ?

it can do SICK ammouts of dps and be a buffer or TANK and do allmost no dmg.

plate setups arent really tank :P

and if you try and fit 8x mega pulse + 2x rep tank... you need 3-4 injectors to keep it going :P

some ppl fit 2 injectors allready on a plate fit.

so.. no the cap bonus is not out of place on some ships. would be funney if the took away geddons bonus and added dmg. that ship would be out of cap in 5 volleys i guess.


Autoabaddon! \O_o/

Like an autoapoc but with one less useless bonus and 25% armor resists. Or the automaller. Or the autoprophecy. Etc. Cross training Minmatar was the best thing I ever did. And plate setups quite certainly are tank. Take a rep abaddon and a plated abaddon into combat and see which one lasts longer under sustained high dps fire. It's just a different kind of tank.

Also, this thread is new information that I'm reading for the first time!

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2007.12.12 20:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Joie Mains
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:57
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 20:52:43
Lets look at the abaddon. Its clearly one of our best ships. It has good damage and a mean tank.
Isnt it odd that abaddon works at tanking and ganking eventhough the cap reduction bonus is missing on this ship?

How can one not come to the conclusion that this bonus, typically seen on amarr ships, is not a faked bonus? Doesnt this show that we actually are being cheated of one real bonus?


cos all tier3 bs got wery not tipical bonuses to there races


Ummm, quite wrong...

Caldari: the logical step in the gun-boat line Merlin-Moa-Ferox-Rokh

Amarr: CCP found out that they can't make a ship that is unique with the suck bonus, so they scrapped it.

Galante: Big Brutix, the armour repair bonus is a very galante bonus atm.

Minmatar: Rate of fire and shield boost are minmatar bonuses, also; its a big cyclone.


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