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Oam Mkoll
Caldari
Stealth Squad
Posted - 2007.12.11 11:32:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Oam Mkoll on 11/12/2007 11:32:37
omgwtfbbq with reasonable returns (I know you can Estamel everything but there's no need):

CNR

HI:
7xCN/DG Cruise + Tractor/Drone Link

MED:
Gist B-Type XL SB
Officer SBA
Large Extender II
3 specific hardeners (passive if you have the skills/ISK)

LOW:
3xCN/DG BCS
2xPDU II (unless you go officer no need to go overboard with those)

RIGS:
Whatever suits you. 3xCCC, CCC + Cap safeguard, 3 field extenders or even a mix of resist rigs if you keep missioning in the same area.

Works like a charm. With max skills it's unstoppable. Throw in a set of Crystals if you're crapping ISK.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:02:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Hectaire Glade
Originally by: Alitha Maru
Originally by: Oam Mkoll

I'm not sure whether to laugh my arse off or just cry for you. An active setup, with SBA at that (which isn't mandatory at all) nerfed with capacitor power relays.. Good god!

Every time you fit CPR on an active tank, god kills a kitten. Think of all the poor kittens..


You just proved my point really. Everyone that thinks that a ship only has one, or few, possible setups always does. Point is, as long as a setup works....it works.

Of course I have better setups, I have faction mods up the wazoo if I want to. But the point here was to demonstrate that there really is no recipe for any ship as it can have a variety of setup that works.


I think what he's trying to say, very correctly, is that fitting a mod which undoes the value of another mod in a setup has a net effect of wasting some or all of the full the potential of both module slots'. In other words, CPRs on an active boosted setup are a bad, bad, idea. Yes its still functional, but has a decreased tanking effectiveness over some of the more common fits.


cpr II's work on raven when you do lvl 4 missions. Because at certain point you can tank all damage even if your boost isn't so great you just want it to permarun the xl booster (tech 2 or better) to reduce micromanagement. Since gist ones are pretty expensive atm it's a good idea. It is true that some other setups give much better performance though.


Yoinx
Caldari
Chemtrail Production Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:37:00 - [33]
 

Most people will say not to permatank a LSB, but I find it works pretty well. I seldom have to warp out, unless i get massive room aggro. I've thought about using a XL, but, it would probably take a little more to perm it.

My fit:
Highs:
6x CN/DG Cruise launchers (4cn,2DG. Same stats)
1x Tractor Beam
1x Drone link augmentor

Mids:
1x CN Large Shield Booster
1x CN Shield Boost Amp
1x Invul Field 2
1x Ballistic Field 2
1x Heat Dissipation Field 2
1x Cap recharger 2

Lows:
2x Ballistic Control System 2
3x Capactitor Flux Coil 2

Rigs:
3x Capacitor Control Circuit

Drones:
7x Hammerhead2 or Vespa2

The shield boost is'nt as high as with an XL which might be better, but it takes more management.

I believe with this setup, i can perm everything, the boost is like 330hp on a 3.2 second cycle. decent resists though. I belive between drones and cruise, this deals out about 440dps for me.

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:38:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Dristra


+ ships and modules is a hostile place, much like low-sec.


No need for it to be. In fact, no benefit from it being so either. Especiallly in a thread sking for mission setup help.

Sharkk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:54:00 - [35]
 

I confess its hard not to be rather short with certain people's postings

for instance "why is the raven so popular for level 4's"????

well the answer is because its the best ship to do level 4's in.

Passive tanking is only possible by running over sized mods on ships
i.e large extenders on medium sized ship...(ala Drake or Caracal)
where the increase in shield capacity is disproportionate to the shield recharge time

it just wont work on a raven.

Active tank it, run BCU's in the lows, and if your trying to solo lvl 4's invest in some more expensive equipment
you will need a tech II X-L booster end of story and some mods to increase your capcitor recharge.

chur

Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Posted - 2007.12.11 13:13:00 - [36]
 

As to why you can't do L4s, you just had a really horrible passive shield tank. 6x good cruise launchers, 2x NOS, XL shield booster, shield boost amp, 4 mission-specific hards, 3x BCS, 2x PDS, 5x medium drones, 5 lights, 3x CCC, is pretty much the standard setup.

As to why the Raven is popular for L4s-it has easy damage type selection, a powerful shield tank, missiles (no bother about tracking), and isn't too expensive to set up (well, you can go OMGWTFBBQSAUCE expensive if you want).

Qui Shon
Posted - 2007.12.11 13:35:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Sharkk

well the answer is because its the best ship to do level 4's in.



More like it's nearly equally good at them all. Domi can finishn many missions faster then the Raven can, and AbaGedMare beats the Raven at many other missions as well. But no other ship can reach the same level of average effectiveness vs all rats rats while being so easy to use to boot.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 14:48:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 11/12/2007 14:49:36
What the hell is up with the billion isk setups for what is obviously a noob? When you first start on L4 missions it is unlikely that you've made your billions yet. How about some setups that work without a CNR all Estamel'd out? FFS, people. I didn't know ships and modules was a forum for showing how much ISK you have (or dream about having).

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2007.12.11 15:10:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 11/12/2007 14:49:36
What the hell is up with the billion isk setups for what is obviously a noob? When you first start on L4 missions it is unlikely that you've made your billions yet. How about some setups that work without a CNR all Estamel'd out? FFS, people. I didn't know ships and modules was a forum for showing how much ISK you have (or dream about having).


haha I remember flaming you two years ago telling you to read the patch notes before crying, still not the brightest crayon I see

if you hadn't noticed, there's two pimp setups and a majority are perfectly standard and accessible tech two--add to that how difficult it is for npcs to shut down such tanks means relatively afk grinding with little threat of loss, factor in social skills, salvage and so on and it begins to add up

do this for a few weeks and you'll have your billions for the price of boredom

cheers

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 15:15:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
there's two pimp setups


That's two too many for someone who just tried to passive tank a Raven.

Plus the "standard setups" given weren't that good.

Irony is I don't remember you at all, Irony.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.12.11 15:19:00 - [41]
 

Passive tanking battleships doesn't work nearly so well.

This is because of the relative ratio of shield recharge, vs. shield size - a passive tanked ship uses large shield extenders to significantly increase it's 'base' shield, and at the same time lower it's recharge time down lots, to make the hp/sec higher.

The raven has a high base shield already, so it's only adding about 30-40% to it by fitting a couple of LSEs.
It also has a slow recharge, that you're not reducing enough to carry off that difference.

Maybe if they introduce XL shield extenders, it might be worth coming back to, but for now:
DON'T PASSIVE TANK BATTLESHIPS.

OK, so with that aside.
6x cruise, tractor, salvager.
XL Booster, shield booster amp, 4x hardeners
3x BCS, 2x PDS

CCCs. Or core defense capacitor safeguards (premptive lol at wordfilter).

Personally I like missile precision rigs, but you do need to ensure your tank is stable first.

Hardeners should be rat specific. Never ever use invulns when you know what their damage types are going to be, unless it's a '3rd' hardener or something, and you want to add a bit to both resists.

And obviously, in the above, fit T2/named where you can use/afford it.

Don't forget the drones either. A bay of hammerheads is actually an appreciable amount of damage output. I'd suggest just slapping in 7x hammerheads, to keep two as spares.

Think that about covers it. The raven is a bit less of a no-brainer than the passive tank drake, because you do actually have to watch your shield boosting/cap levels.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 15:40:00 - [42]
 

How 'stable' does a tank need to be? Reason I ask is that it takes a lot of effort to get a XL Booster setup to run forever without a Cap Booster. To me forever = stable.

I hate quoting EFT but one area it hasn't failed me on is when it says a cap will run forever, even if cap/sec recharge is only .1 higher than cap/sec usage, it has still run forever for me.

I've found a couple setups with an XL Booster that are cap stable. Which one you choose seems to come down to personal preference. In my case I err on the side of defense rather than damage. I have not met an NPC that won't eventually go down to 6x Cruise II on a Raven without BCUs/Rigs or even drone help. That being said, here's the best setup I could come up with defensively (obviously I mostly fight Angels):

6x Cruise II
2x Whathaveyou

1x XL Booster II
1x EM Hardener II
1x Therm Hardener II
1x Kin Hardener II
1x Invuln II
1x Cap Recharger II

3x Cap Flux II
2x PDU II

3x CCC I

Defense Efficiency: 504/504
Missile DPS: 252 (people are going to probably instantly dismiss the setup because of this)

Variation:

6x Cruise II
2x Whathaveyou

1x XL Booster II
2x Invuln II
1x SBA II
2x Cap Recharger II

3x Cap Flux II
2x BCU II

3x CCC I

Defense Efficiency: 484/484
Missile DPS: 367

I can't decide what I like best. Both will run forever, in the second setup you're trading 4% of your 'Defense Efficiency' (whatever the hell that actually is) for 45% more DPS. Seems like a good trade, I suppose.

Now if you were fighting something easier than Angels, you could run less hardeners and maybe get away with less cap mods.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2007.12.11 16:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Alowishus




I believe the damage efficiency is just for what you're trying to figure, ie more detailed damge stats when you know the inflicted damage.

If I wanted to know the damage of this nephilim you could right click it setup a domination profile with 59 for explosive & thermal and have a slightly more accurate resistance than otherwise.

Anyone have a breakdown of the rate of 0.0 ratting of a raven to heavy ishtar or heavy missile cerb? Seems its a no brainer to use smaller sig ships, rat faster and reduce the risk of being ganked.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 16:06:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 11/12/2007 16:09:05
Well in my 0.0 ratting experience most of the damage comes from multiple BS rats Torp/Cruise spamming you, so a smaller sig radius ship probably would be better. I know a couple of guys who Officer hunt in a pair of Enyos. When you think about it, they're not doing much less damage than my Cruise Raven and they're taking less damage as well, plus the chance/pain of hostile gankage is near nil.

I think Raven's became the ship of choice due to: easy training and availability. Back in the day I could kill/tank every Angel spawn in a T1 Raven and my corp had the BPO. Now I can use just about every T2 ship/module in game and Cerbs are in my station for the same price as a Raven.

Koryvarn
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.11 16:18:00 - [45]
 

I fly with either of the two setups:
6 arby Cruise launchers
2x whatever

XL booster
Boost amp
Cap Recharger 2
3 x hardeners

DCU
2 x BCU
1 x PDU
1 x CPR

or

same highs / lows

but
1 XL booster
2 x LSE
3 x hardeners

And then 2 CCC rigs, 1 EM shield rig

The second setup tanks tanks for longer, but the first one can tank more burst damage.
I do missions in Amarr space, so fight mostly sansha's and blood, hence the EM rig.

Insert tech two / based named wherever.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 18:11:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 11/12/2007 18:12:02
I'm really shocked at the lack of Capacitor Flux Coils in use for PVE. In PVP you need a certain buffer for Nos/Neuts, in PVE you do not, cap/sec is far more important than overall capacity. They're far more effective at giving you cap/sec than PDU IIs. Only if the possibility of cap stability is unlikely will capacity be more important.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.12.11 18:30:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 11/12/2007 18:12:02
I'm really shocked at the lack of Capacitor Flux Coils in use for PVE. In PVP you need a certain buffer for Nos/Neuts, in PVE you do not, cap/sec is far more important than overall capacity. They're far more effective at giving you cap/sec than PDU IIs. Only if the possibility of cap stability is unlikely will capacity be more important.


You're focusing entirely on how much tank you can permarun. As much gank as you can fit without running into warp-out situations is optimal.

Raven
6x Cruise, Tractor, (Tractor|350mm Rail)
XL SB II, 3x Hardener, SBA II, (100mn AB|Target Painter)
3x BCU II, 2x PDU II
3x CCC

Replace with faction where appropriate (if desired).

-- This setup works. Use its hitpoints as a buffer when you get aggro, and then rep back up a bit (but don't forget to turn off the booster).

-Liang

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2007.12.11 19:10:00 - [48]
 

I'm open to any and all ideas, I'm just a little lazy and my PVE setups tend to reflect that.

Faye Valerii
Caldari
Exeunt Omnes
Posted - 2007.12.11 20:30:00 - [49]
 

I just started using a Raven for L4's, and the following setup can tank massive attack etc ... specifically for Guristas

6xarb cruise
2xdual 150mm

1xlbII 1xamp 2xkinII 1xthermII 1xcprII

2xbcuII 3xpduII

1xtherm 1xkin 1xshield booster efficiency thingy rigs

Kaynard Stormwalker
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.11 20:53:00 - [50]
 

With the amount of threads on it I bet its not hard to figure out a nice setup.
Still, try out and see what works best.

personally, "Why is the raven so popular ?", because not enough people have skills to use a Nighthawk. That is the real lv4 ship. =P

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:13:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Last Wolf
I prefer smartass, but I like some variety now and then.
Laughing

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:14:00 - [52]
 

1. passive tanking BS won't work

2. Get a Nighthawk. I asked the same question you asked, and people told me the Raven is the king of missions. Then I got one myself, my skills aren't bad, but I'm back with the Nighthawk. Nothing beats slicing through everything up to BC rats like a hot knife through butter, NOT having to micro manage drones as the only defense against frigs (read: like in the Raven), and the DPS against BS rats is, surprisingly, very close to the (regular, non-faction) Raven.

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:18:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Requiescat
My exact fit. Just solo'd level 4 Massive Attack, no warp outs.


The funny bit is, L4 Massive Attack was what made me decide to ditch the Raven and go back to the Nighthawk. MA is all frigs and small critters with only 3 BS rats. Can do it in less than half the time in a NH (or prolly also a Drake for that matter).

Even if it means having two ships in your garage - for MA I'd ALWAYS go with a BC hull.

Kaynard Stormwalker
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:19:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
1. passive tanking BS won't work

2. Get a Nighthawk. I asked the same question you asked, and people told me the Raven is the king of missions. Then I got one myself, my skills aren't bad, but I'm back with the Nighthawk. Nothing beats slicing through everything up to BC rats like a hot knife through butter, NOT having to micro manage drones as the only defense against frigs (read: like in the Raven), and the DPS against BS rats is, surprisingly, very close to the (regular, non-faction) Raven.


3. And you can (if running a passive tank) read a book while you do 95% of the level 4's without worrying about anything. If for some reason you need to rush to get food before the super-maket closes, you don't need to warp out. =P No, I'm not overreacting.(Don't try this on AE though)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:28:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Originally by: Requiescat
My exact fit. Just solo'd level 4 Massive Attack, no warp outs.


The funny bit is, L4 Massive Attack was what made me decide to ditch the Raven and go back to the Nighthawk. MA is all frigs and small critters with only 3 BS rats. Can do it in less than half the time in a NH (or prolly also a Drake for that matter).

Even if it means having two ships in your garage - for MA I'd ALWAYS go with a BC hull.


That right there is a great observation. I'm going to have to put together a Drake + Hurricane/Cyclone combo for missions like that (instead of the typical Mael + Raven).

-Liang

The RepoMan
Caldari
Red Horizon Inc
Red Horizon
Posted - 2007.12.11 22:41:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: The RepoMan on 11/12/2007 22:41:28
Originally by: Lucian Stratos
well i wanted to move on to LvL 4 missions and i wanted a ship to do them solo in so everyone said `your caldari get a raven` well i have to say im verry verry disapointed with it.

Is it my fit i have been useing the following

HIGH SLOTS
6 X Cruise Missile Launcher I
2 X Duel 250mm Large railguns

MEDIUM SLOTS
1 X Invulnerability Field II
2 X Large Shield Extender II
3 X Shield Recharger II

LOW SLOTS
5 X Shield Power Relay II

RIG`S
1 X Core Defence Field Extender I
2 X Core Defence Field Purger I

How is this fit for soloing LvL 4 missions because i have struggled on missions with it dose anyone know how to make it better???



This just in:

The universe has been ****d in the mindjina.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2007.12.11 22:47:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Originally by: Requiescat
My exact fit. Just solo'd level 4 Massive Attack, no warp outs.


The funny bit is, L4 Massive Attack was what made me decide to ditch the Raven and go back to the Nighthawk. MA is all frigs and small critters with only 3 BS rats. Can do it in less than half the time in a NH (or prolly also a Drake for that matter).

Even if it means having two ships in your garage - for MA I'd ALWAYS go with a BC hull.


I've switched to the NH. Or I would have done, if I wasn't using it out in 0.0. But the drake was pretty good L4 boat. Compared pretty well to the raven - didn't quite lay the smackdown as hard, but did a fairly good impression of it, especially as you point out, smaller ships get slaughered faster by smaller missiles.

NH I had a fairly good time with, as heavy missiles, and a precision bonus meant that anything small died really fast. And it both had more tank, and more firepower than the Drake.

Which was nice.

However they do have a pricetag somewhat higher than a raven, given market value is what, 200mil these days? And also less insurable than a raven.

And take a long time to train up.

*shrug*. NHs are good. Ravens are good. Probably NHs are better, but I remain unsure. (And NHs now look far sexier ships)

Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.11 23:09:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kaynard Stormwalker

3. And you can (if running a passive tank) read a book while you do 95% of the level 4's without worrying about anything. If for some reason you need to rush to get food before the super-maket closes, you don't need to warp out. =P No, I'm not overreacting.(Don't try this on AE though)


True, forgot to mention that. For stuff like Massive Assault, I pack FoF missiles, hit F1 to F6 and everything works automagically (except for when the stupid FoFs decide to shoot a probably very dangerous cargo platform or storage silo instead of the rats ... but thats another story).

Dubious Drewski
Posted - 2007.12.12 01:24:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Alitha Maru
Of course you can passive tank a Raven
Also, "Of course you can armour tank a Drake" Yeah, but it doesn't mean it's going to work well. Take a look at the cap and shield recharge rates and buffers and it becomes clear which ships work best with active or passive tanks.

Raven is meant to be active tanked - it simply gives you a stronger tank.

Originally by: Alitha Maru
(using CPRs with an active shield tank) made it so I could perma-run the booster
Using a CPR with a shield booster gives you more cap, yes, but it also reduces the booster's effectiveness - so for example: using CPRs and a Large booster just makes your Large work more like a medium booster. Think about it.

ANY time you need more cap and you have an empty low slot, just fit a cap flux, don't gimp your active shield tank with CPRs.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2007.12.12 01:54:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lucian Stratos
well i wanted to move on to LvL 4 missions and i wanted a ship to do them solo in so everyone said `your caldari get a raven` well i have to say im verry verry disapointed with it.

Is it my fit i have been useing the following

HIGH SLOTS
6 X Cruise Missile Launcher I
2 X Duel 250mm Large railguns

MEDIUM SLOTS
1 X Invulnerability Field II
2 X Large Shield Extender II
3 X Shield Recharger II

LOW SLOTS
5 X Shield Power Relay II

RIG`S
1 X Core Defence Field Extender I
2 X Core Defence Field Purger I

How is this fit for soloing LvL 4 missions because i have struggled on missions with it dose anyone know how to make it better???

My fit is nothing like this one,i fit not to worry about cap because i have a domi friend that feeds me cap but this is it.
6x cruise II.
1x XLSB II 4x hardener IIs 1x prototype sensor booster(longrange script).
3x BCU IIs 1x damage control(the better named the better)1x power diag II.

But the common setup is 2x bcus 3x power diags with 3 ccc rigs and a low energy faction shield booster so it can run forever.


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