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shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:29:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Dheorl
Tbh I just really cba to. If you sit down and post what you did then I'll happily point out where you went wrong but I'm not going to sit here and type out all my maths just to prove some faceless noob wrong.


I did type out the proof, much earlier, you then ignored it, then accused me of lying, now you say you have rechecked it. I am sorry, but I have provided a crapload more information and than you have, and you are just plain wrong. I used YOUR setups, and calculated effects that you neglected. I also gave multiple outcomes due to multiple scenerios.

Your math is ****ing wrong.

Anyway:

Good ships that amarr have:
Khanid Mk II
Cap ships
Crusader
Armageddon
Redeemer
Paladin(though the web bonus should change to tracking)

Ships that need a little help help:
Abaddon (cap)
Curse (cap and TD bonus)
Retribution (+1 mid)
Arbitrator (+10% TDs /lvl)
Harbinger (needs a small amount more dmg. Why does a minnie outdmg it?)

Ships that are crap:
Apoc
Prophecy
Maller
Omen
Zealot
Punisher
Executioner

MysteriousJade
Posted - 2007.12.12 03:08:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: MysteriousJade on 12/12/2007 03:10:03
Edited by: MysteriousJade on 12/12/2007 03:09:23
Originally by: Dheorl
bull****....

You have absolutly no proof, you won't fight me all you do is throw personal insults at me and say that whatever I say is rubbish.

...ends in bull****


that proofs nothing! wether that rifter pwns the punisher or not.. but something WILL prove the fact that the amarr race with its broken system of cap/lazor/crystal and broken ship-roles is TRUE and a FACT. and that is a amarr ship that uses a mod thats supposed to gaylente/minni oder knalldari.

and that prove is so simple - put ac's on the rifter plus small nos
ignoring the bonus - ignoring lasers and i bet 100m in an 1vs1 punisher with (you?) and without (me?) lasers an i WILL win...

proof? lasers suck - even with bonus

so stfu and go back under the stone youve come from

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.12 03:33:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: MysteriousJade
Edited by: MysteriousJade on 12/12/2007 03:10:03
Edited by: MysteriousJade on 12/12/2007 03:09:23
Originally by: Dheorl
bull****....

You have absolutly no proof, you won't fight me all you do is throw personal insults at me and say that whatever I say is rubbish.

...ends in bull****


that proofs nothing! wether that rifter pwns the punisher or not.. but something WILL prove the fact that the amarr race with its broken system of cap/lazor/crystal and broken ship-roles is TRUE and a FACT. and that is a amarr ship that uses a mod thats supposed to gaylente/minni oder knalldari.

and that prove is so simple - put ac's on the rifter plus small nos
ignoring the bonus - ignoring lasers and i bet 100m in an 1vs1 punisher with (you?) and without (me?) lasers an i WILL win...

proof? lasers suck - even with bonus

so stfu and go back under the stone youve come from


Thats actually a pretty damn good point. I wonder what would win, a AC punisher or a Laser punisher...

Looks like the AC punisher would crap all over the laser punsiher.

With EMP
AC punisher does 82 DPS vs the Laser punisher's 70
Ac Punisher has a 7.3 effective HP vs the Laser punisher's 6k effective
Time to Kill:
Ac punisher 104 secs
Laser punisher 73 secs

With Fusion
AC punisher does 75 DPS vs the laser punisher's 70
AC punisher has 7.3k HP vs the Laser punisher's 4.9k HP
Time to kill:
Ac punisher 104 secs
LAser punisher 65 secs

Wow, thats quite a difference there.

Oh btw, the AC punisher is fitting top tier guns, and has more fitting room left than the Laser punisher has with fitting lower tier guns.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 04:36:00 - [94]
 

Ok I'm a pretty big newb, but I'd like to just put in some of my observations as a primarily Amarr pilot. Take them with a grain of salt, as I'm just barely at 13mil SP.

The single biggest problem I've noticed has been mentioned numerous times, and that is the typical range of conflict. Most conflicts, particularly in PvP, occur either at extremely long or extremely short ranges. In short range situations, lasers have problems as they are "mid range" weapons. In this age of nano-ships, it's far too easy for close range ships to get in extremely close to pulse-boat amarrian ships, and cause a lot of problems for the amarrian ship's accuracy. Simplest solution? A more close range crystal even than multifrequency or conflagration. This would also have increased DPS, addressing another concern.

Cap:Damage ratio. The only first hand experience I have is with Caldari missile boats aside from my amarr ships, but it seems like lasers just don't do that much more damage for the cap they cost. I've done sansha missions with both a harbinger and a drake, drake using scourge heavy and the harbinger set up with pulses, and I just haven't really noticed that massive of a damage advantage at the short ranges and cap drain that the harbinger has to deal with.

Lastly, a number of amarrian ships have fitting problems. I myself was terribly excited the first time I was going to try out an Omen back in the day, but after some time I have come to realize it qualifies under the "hard to fit" category. This is not a problem with ALL amarrian ships, but is a severe problem for some.

I have concerns also with the many changes to nos/neut and TD's lately, but I have very little personal experience so I will leave that to others.

I do hate that a number of people are unable to contain their frustration, as it seems to be pretty widely believed that the Amarr need something, noone's just quite sure what.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2007.12.12 05:01:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Dillius Archania

The single biggest problem I've noticed has been mentioned numerous times, and that is the typical range of conflict. Most conflicts, particularly in PvP, occur either at extremely long or extremely short ranges. In short range situations, lasers have problems as they are "mid range" weapons. In this age of nano-ships, it's far too easy for close range ships to get in extremely close to pulse-boat amarrian ships, and cause a lot of problems for the amarrian ship's accuracy. Simplest solution? A more close range crystal even than multifrequency or conflagration. This would also have increased DPS, addressing another concern.


this is not a "problem" this is good thing.
not all engaments start at point blank, and in smaller engagements you have not blobs the ability to have a good range is a good thing as you have to move your ship less and can start to hit earlier than other ships and even with smaller ship range is important, is good to stay out of web or to hit the enemy that try to dictate range.
Minnie ships for example are know to dictate range or to be able to hit quite far with ACs and that is considered good, and keep in mind that they do that in faloof (so reducing dmg) while pulses do that in optimal.

pulses have less tracking than other turrets, but not as bad and it was before, it got a veery nice boost and imo now this is not a big problem like it was.

Originally by: Dillius Archania

Cap:Damage ratio. The only first hand experience I have is with Caldari missile boats aside from my amarr ships, but it seems like lasers just don't do that much more damage for the cap they cost. I've done sansha missions with both a harbinger and a drake, drake using scourge heavy and the harbinger set up with pulses, and I just haven't really noticed that massive of a damage advantage at the short ranges and cap drain that the harbinger has to deal with.


missile for pve are just better, no tracking, no range, good to hit even smaller size ships... about cap/dmg, for pulses i generally consider it quite balanced.
lasers have good base dmg and very good range, the trade off is cap and bit of tracking. the real problem with cap was when most ships used to fit noses, then yes amarr was in troubles as it easy to get noses to death. (that was a problem for most ship, but amarr suffered of that in particular)

Originally by: Dillius Archania

Lastly, a number of amarrian ships have fitting problems. I myself was terribly excited the first time I was going to try out an Omen back in the day, but after some time I have come to realize it qualifies under the "hard to fit" category. This is not a problem with ALL amarrian ships, but is a severe problem for some.


fitting is a problem that more or less plagues all races, is not just amarr that suffer from that. i mosty fly minnie and there are ships that can't even fit a full rack of high range weapons... or a dual rep... so is not that amarr is gimped in this reguard... is a problem quite common to various ships.

Originally by: Dillius Archania

I have concerns also with the many changes to nos/neut and TD's lately, but I have very little personal experience so I will leave that to others.

I do hate that a number of people are unable to contain their frustration, as it seems to be pretty widely believed that the Amarr need something, noone's just quite sure what.

for NOS as said i think it was a good bost for amarr in general. it hit badly their recons (that probably where a bit op :P) but was good for most of its ships.

actually in recent patches i think amarr got some nice boosts and the rework of kanhid ships was pretty good and give to amarr a weapon system that is able to chose dmg type.

personally i think that all this amarr whining is quite excessive, imo there are still things that can be worked as a bit less cap usage for beams (beams only) and maybe a look to some T1 cruisers, but thats all.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 05:21:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon

this is not a "problem" this is good thing.
not all engaments start at point blank, and in smaller engagements you have not blobs the ability to have a good range is a good thing as you have to move your ship less and can start to hit earlier than other ships and even with smaller ship range is important, is good to stay out of web or to hit the enemy that try to dictate range.
Minnie ships for example are know to dictate range or to be able to hit quite far with ACs and that is considered good, and keep in mind that they do that in faloof (so reducing dmg) while pulses do that in optimal.

pulses have less tracking than other turrets, but not as bad and it was before, it got a veery nice boost and imo now this is not a big problem like it was.



It may be helpful for fleet engagements or whenever you're quickly changing targets, but I still don't see what I'm supposed to do about this one vs one.

A lot of people have brought this up in reference to the recent addition of the Paladin as well, as it is quite foolish to be using a web with pulses due to the range.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 12:28:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Dillius Archania on 12/12/2007 12:52:25
Originally by: Ath Amon

missile for pve are just better, no tracking, no range, good to hit even smaller size ships... about cap/dmg, for pulses i generally consider it quite balanced.
lasers have good base dmg and very good range, the trade off is cap and bit of tracking. the real problem with cap was when most ships used to fit noses, then yes amarr was in troubles as it easy to get noses to death. (that was a problem for most ship, but amarr suffered of that in particular)



It just seems a bit schewed in terms of trade offs. Of course I accept that missiles are king in PvE, I just feel like if you compare their pro's and con's to lasers (And there are tons of examples out there comparing lasers to hybrids and projectiles as well) that lasers just don't stand a chance. This is brutally apparent at the number of amarrian ships that, even with a 10% reduction in cap usage per level, people would much rather use projectile weapons on. (Punisher, Maller, Prophecy, Apocalypse somewhat). Yes, the first 3 are primarily "tank" not gank ships, but this is still pretty pathetic. Lasers should cause enough damage to warrant the cap use, ESPECIALLY when an entire half of a ships special bonuses are dedicated to such.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.12.12 12:50:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Almarez
....Fitting standard missiles on a Mal is a no go and T2 rockets have serious drawbacks. Also, the Mal is a missile boat (i.e. not really Amarr).


This is so wrong. It's a better standard boat than the Crow now, in every single respect other than about 18dps.

mallina
Caldari
SUNDERING
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2007.12.12 13:01:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Dheorl
Have you looked at a few of the people you've just called a "joe shmoe". I'm betting between them they have hundreds of times the experience and credibility that you do.

You have absolutly no proof, you won't fight me all you do is throw personal insults at me and say that whatever I say is rubbish.

There are plenty of threads claiming amarr are underpowered (most of them started and/or containing faceless noobs like yourself). There are also a fair number of threads laughing at these.

All I'm showing is that alot of people love amarr and yes would love for them to be boosted because they would then be able to WTFBBQPWN everyone.

Oh, and please can you google "personal insults" and see if you can't come up with a few better ones.


I really wouldn't bother arguing with Shin. Basically what it all boils down to is he posts some EFT figures (situationally skewed in his favour) and demands epic Amarr buffs. He then uses his alt Lyria to agree with him to try and gain some credibility. If you ever disagree with him, you're wrong cause his EFT figures said so.

PS: Harbinger is quite possibly the best allround T1 Battlecruiser there is

Xzar Fyrarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2007.12.12 13:02:00 - [100]
 

No no no !
Dont buff amarr!
Buff mimmatar, amarr lazorz are just to loll33tpwn at times!
Boost Auto Canon damage. :[

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2007.12.12 13:12:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr
No no no !
Dont buff amarr!
Buff mimmatar, amarr lazorz are just to loll33tpwn at times!
Boost Auto Canon damage. :[


By this you would boost about 80% of all Amarr Ships. Laughing

Ath Amon
Posted - 2007.12.12 14:07:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Dillius Archania
Edited by: Dillius Archania on 12/12/2007 12:52:25
Originally by: Ath Amon

missile for pve are just better, no tracking, no range, good to hit even smaller size ships... about cap/dmg, for pulses i generally consider it quite balanced.
lasers have good base dmg and very good range, the trade off is cap and bit of tracking. the real problem with cap was when most ships used to fit noses, then yes amarr was in troubles as it easy to get noses to death. (that was a problem for most ship, but amarr suffered of that in particular)



It just seems a bit schewed in terms of trade offs. Of course I accept that missiles are king in PvE, I just feel like if you compare their pro's and con's to lasers (And there are tons of examples out there comparing lasers to hybrids and projectiles as well) that lasers just don't stand a chance. This is brutally apparent at the number of amarrian ships that, even with a 10% reduction in cap usage per level, people would much rather use projectile weapons on. (Punisher, Maller, Prophecy, Apocalypse somewhat). Yes, the first 3 are primarily "tank" not gank ships, but this is still pretty pathetic. Lasers should cause enough damage to warrant the cap use, ESPECIALLY when an entire half of a ships special bonuses are dedicated to such.


imo short range turrets are quite balanced atm, there could be some tweaks here and there but generally have not much to complain, for missiles dunno, torp change make them pretty powerfull, maybe even too much... we will see in first weeks of real use.

the fact that some players chose to fit no dmg bonus ships with ac imo is not a proof that acs are better, simply they are maxing their tank at the loss of dps, also the fact that proj can swich a bit their dmg type is a good thing for missions so this is more a pve thing than pvp

for long range the balance is not that good... rails are imo the best ones (too good), beams have huge dmg but i think they should use bit less cap and be more stable, proj need lot of love :P

for your other reply, range is important even in 1 vs 1, for smaller ships the advantage is more evident for BS you will still get hit by your opponents but also consider that at 20km they are anyway in faloff and lose a bit of their dps

also i don't suggest that much to do "solo pvp" in a bs as you really risk to get tackled whitout to be able to do anything and the solo pvp becomes 10 vs 1

for the paladin personally i will always use a webber on this ship (actually i will always use it cept of very few ships) as you can immobilize an enemy preventing him to go in his close range optimal and you will have no problems of opponent "exploiting" tracking difference.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 14:22:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon

imo short range turrets are quite balanced atm, there could be some tweaks here and there but generally have not much to complain, for missiles dunno, torp change make them pretty powerfull, maybe even too much... we will see in first weeks of real use.

the fact that some players chose to fit no dmg bonus ships with ac imo is not a proof that acs are better, simply they are maxing their tank at the loss of dps, also the fact that proj can swich a bit their dmg type is a good thing for missions so this is more a pve thing than pvp

for long range the balance is not that good... rails are imo the best ones (too good), beams have huge dmg but i think they should use bit less cap and be more stable, proj need lot of love :P

for your other reply, range is important even in 1 vs 1, for smaller ships the advantage is more evident for BS you will still get hit by your opponents but also consider that at 20km they are anyway in faloff and lose a bit of their dps

also i don't suggest that much to do "solo pvp" in a bs as you really risk to get tackled whitout to be able to do anything and the solo pvp becomes 10 vs 1

for the paladin personally i will always use a webber on this ship (actually i will always use it cept of very few ships) as you can immobilize an enemy preventing him to go in his close range optimal and you will have no problems of opponent "exploiting" tracking difference.


Actually most of the suggestions for using AC's on those ships have been for PvP (that I have heard), but yes, primarily this is a reliance on tanking. Still, it's ridiculous. I've never heard of Gallente ships equiping AC's to save of cap and super tank. Caldari, obviously, don't need to (thought I've never heard of it on their hybrid ships either). Switching damage types is an advantage that, again, should be countered by higher DPS in restricted damage types on amarrian ships.

Can agree on beams. No experience with artillery myself, just AC's.

The problem is the ease at which a point blank battleship can get inside the optimal of Pulse lasers. I don't even have max skills (If I did the + optimal with + falloffs would about cancel out anyways) but on my Abaddon for example multifrequencies optimal at 14 with 9k falloff, what am I suppose to do if the enemy is within 5 km? (I know hits will still land, but still an issue) AB/MWD? Amarr ships don't have the capacitor spare to dictate range. I truly think that what is needed is another crystal closer range and higher damage than the multifrequency/conflagration. (Or at least closer range. Heck being turret disrupted could almost be a blessing in these situations)

Madla Mafia
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.12 15:20:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Annowyn
With all the Amarr suck/need a buff/are still nerfed/insert QQ here, I am begining to really wonder why "few people fly Amarr." I think it is due to posts like this filling up the forums on a weekly basis, not because their ships suck.




Have you tried flying Amarr ships? No, then stfu.

Madla Mafia
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2007.12.12 15:21:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Dheorl
Tbh I just really cba to. If you sit down and post what you did then I'll happily point out where you went wrong but I'm not going to sit here and type out all my maths just to prove some faceless noob wrong.


I did type out the proof, much earlier, you then ignored it, then accused me of lying, now you say you have rechecked it. I am sorry, but I have provided a crapload more information and than you have, and you are just plain wrong. I used YOUR setups, and calculated effects that you neglected. I also gave multiple outcomes due to multiple scenerios.

Your math is ****ing wrong.

Anyway:

Good ships that amarr have:
Khanid Mk II
Cap ships
Crusader
Armageddon
Redeemer
Paladin(though the web bonus should change to tracking)

Ships that need a little help help:
Abaddon (cap)
Curse (cap and TD bonus)
Retribution (+1 mid)
Arbitrator (+10% TDs /lvl)
Harbinger (needs a small amount more dmg. Why does a minnie outdmg it?)

Ships that are crap:
Apoc
Prophecy
Maller
Omen
Zealot
Punisher
Executioner


Forgot to add the Pilgrim to the "crappy ships" list.

Imaos
Posted - 2007.12.12 16:55:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Dillius Archania

Actually most of the suggestions for using AC's on those ships have been for PvP (that I have heard), but yes, primarily this is a reliance on tanking. Still, it's ridiculous. I've never heard of Gallente ships equiping AC's to save of cap and super tank. Caldari, obviously, don't need to (thought I've never heard of it on their hybrid ships either). Switching damage types is an advantage that, again, should be countered by higher DPS in restricted damage types on amarrian ships.



There is one gallente ship that works well with autocannons/artillery: The myrmidon. Most other gallente ships get 5% damage per shiplevel to hybrids.

Imaos

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 17:14:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Dillius Archania

Actually most of the suggestions for using AC's on those ships have been for PvP (that I have heard), but yes, primarily this is a reliance on tanking. Still, it's ridiculous. I've never heard of Gallente ships equiping AC's to save of cap and super tank. Caldari, obviously, don't need to (thought I've never heard of it on their hybrid ships either). Switching damage types is an advantage that, again, should be countered by higher DPS in restricted damage types on amarrian ships.



There is one gallente ship that works well with autocannons/artillery: The myrmidon. Most other gallente ships get 5% damage per shiplevel to hybrids.

Imaos


Ah yes, I did forget about the Myrmidon.

But that's really the trick isn't it? No gallente pilot would ever consider putting anything but hybrids on a ship with hybrid bonuses, but we have that exact thing going on with amarr ships. Lasers are supposed to have significant damage to make up for the cap drain, hybrid weapon ships get a hybrid damage bonus, laser weapon ships get a cap use reduction, it should (somewhat) balance out in the end. But it does not.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.12 18:22:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: shinsushi

Good ships that amarr have:
Khanid Mk II
Cap ships
Crusader
Armageddon
Redeemer
Paladin(though the web bonus should change to tracking)

Ships that need a little help help:
Abaddon (cap)
Curse (cap and TD bonus)
Retribution (+1 mid)
Arbitrator (+10% TDs /lvl)
Harbinger (needs a small amount more dmg. Why does a minnie outdmg it?)

Ships that are crap:
Apoc
Prophecy
Maller
Omen
Zealot
Punisher
Executioner


Can agree with that list, as well as adding Pilgrim to crap. Funniest part is the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy can all do quite well if you don't waste time putting lasers on them.

Arii Smith
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2007.12.12 18:25:00 - [109]
 

Amarr are fine nerf poke Almarez wallet!

shinsushi
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:57:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Dillius Archania
Originally by: shinsushi

Good ships that amarr have:
Khanid Mk II
Cap ships
Crusader
Armageddon
Redeemer
Paladin(though the web bonus should change to tracking)

Ships that need a little help help:
Abaddon (cap)
Curse (cap and TD bonus)
Retribution (+1 mid)
Arbitrator (+10% TDs /lvl)
Harbinger (needs a small amount more dmg. Why does a minnie outdmg it?)

Ships that are crap:
Apoc
Prophecy
Maller
Omen
Zealot
Punisher
Executioner


Can agree with that list, as well as adding Pilgrim to crap. Funniest part is the Punisher/Maller/Prophecy can all do quite well if you don't waste time putting lasers on them.


My bad, I should have made one more catagory "The worst ship in game" and thrown the pilgrim there.

Your right about those ships being better with ACs btw. An AC punisher will absolutely murder a Laser punisher.

Dillius Archania
Amarr
Posted - 2007.12.13 02:00:00 - [111]
 

I hate replying to a topic and noone arguing with me. Albeit Ath Amon did a good job, and I thank you for it.

Seriously, even if you don't want to argue crazily with shinshushi or Lyria I'll try to remain calm and reasonable.


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