open All Channels
seplocked Intergalactic Summit
blankseplocked Order of the Black Cross
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic

Spoon Thumb
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.11.23 13:21:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 23/11/2007 13:22:22

It is time for strong houses to stand up and take actions of their own and truely let God decide through the blessings of victories or the destruction of those who were not meant to reign, in the field of battle, rather than through crusty old men in a council chamber?

I for one have on many times pledged my loyalty to such a house, and so have the Order of the Black Cross.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.23 13:49:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Spoon Thumb


I for one have on many times pledged my loyalty to such a house, and so have the Order of the Black Cross.



The problem here is one of history. Here's my recollection of past events.

If I recall correctly Dark Seraph started out as a Sarum-leaning corporation. In those days Jamyl Sarum was still alive and the Sarum Family was considered by many to be in the lead in the race to the Imperial throne. Clearly, had Lady Jamyl taken the throne, she would have richly rewarded her followers.

After Lady Jamyl's bid to become Empress failed they forsook that allegiance and swore fealty to the Tetrimon - an organisation devoted to lessening of the power of the five great houses. Again, there were many who considered the Tetrimon to represent the future of the Empire. It was during this period that Dark Seraph merged with other corporations and restyled itself as Ubiqua Seraph.

Around the time that the Tetrimon's bid to have their version of the Scriptures accepted as the truth started to stall, Dark Seraph split off from Ubiqua Seraph and again changed course. This time, they were instrumental in the creation of the Bloodveil sect. What did Bloodveil promise? Untold power and riches. A pattern seems to be emerging here!

Eventually Dark Seraph appears to have parted company with the rest of the Bloodveil. It's possible that they fell out with Revan Neferis after it became clear that not only was she deluded and insane, but also because she wanted power for herself not her followers.

Many of the Dark Seraph and its Ebon Seraph offshoot then turned to piracy. Many pirates are tempted into that lifestyle by the promise of personal fiscal enrichment. Given the history of these DS individuals, I see no reason to consider their motives to be any different.

And now they claim that they're supporters of the Sarum Family and expect loyalist everywhere to welcome them back with open arms.

Given the history of Dark Seraph, I think that it's perfectly valid to consider them as self-aggrandising flip-floppers who rather than wanting to serve the Empire or the Sarum Family are in it for the prestige, influence and money.

There's also the matter of their past crimes against the Empire and God for which they couldn't be less contrite for.

Dangerous Vixen
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.23 14:58:00 - [33]
 

We do not expect any loyalist to welcome us with open arms, we aren't here to seek your acceptance. We are stating who we are supporting, whether you believe us or not is not our concern.

We could sit around a pick at every "loyalist" and find sins against God and the Empire, but that's not our game. Yes, we have done things in the past that people do not agree with, and we live with what we have done.

At the end, we will still fight for who we believe in, Sarum.



Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.23 17:10:00 - [34]
 

Quote:
Or maybe what I'm trying to say is that I just don't like some loyalist's attitudes. PIE Inc. =/= Amarr Inc. and although I wouldn't despute the commitment and effort on the part of said corporation and satelites, they are just that, a corporate entity and not some formal institution given blessing by God on high.


PIE has a long and storied history of repeated assistance to the Empire in service to God. The Empire has on several occasions recognized that commitment and our continued service. Yes we are a corporation. A corporation that has never waivered in our mission to serve God and Empire. More than can be said for many corporations including the Order of the Black Cross especially.

Quote:
"Has it ever occured to anyone that the pat on the head and occasional bone thrown in their direction does not constitute some unbreakable bond of strength with the Empire and does not justify a monopolising of policy on all things Amarrian?"


We do not view our encounters with Empire officials and sacred acts like the awarding of the Cross of the Sacred Throne Order to our former Grand Admiral Trevize as "bones". The unbreakable bond of strength with the Empire is our bond of service and obedience. Certainly we are not a "monopoly" of Amarrian policy what we are though is one of the clusters oldest corporations with a long and fruitful legacy of activity with one and only one objective. If speaking with that history behind us makes it appear we are monopolizing anything blame it on those who are intimidated by it.

Quote:
"It is time for strong houses to stand up and take actions of their own and truely let God decide through the blessings of victories or the destruction of those who were not meant to reign, in the field of battle, rather than through crusty old men in a council chamber?"


Do you believe a house supported by heretics, pirates and other assorted enemies of the Empire like Dark Seraphs roster of misfits is a good choice? That seems to be what you're promoting here lest you forget history.

Conclusions....

Well I conclude those in the Order of the Black Cross want it both ways. They want to enjoy a life of piracy and blood and hedonism and assorted sin then when it becomes inconveinent for them they want to be loyal Sarumites again. I seriously doubt anyone in House Sarum would find this band of unapologetics worthy of the term "follower" or "loyal".

They haven't even tried apologizing or seeking repentence. It is not I they must seek repentence from rather it is God. They have not publically done this and until this is done publically there can be no level of trust or acknowledgement shown to them other than those of doubt and mistrust which are shown now.

Archbishop


Sieesa
Amarr
Dark Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
Posted - 2007.11.23 18:36:00 - [35]
 

There are times when I have sought both forgiveness and redemption. I asked with all my heart, I was ridiculed, and laughed at. We won't ask for forgiveness now, nor in the future. We know our hands are stained, we know that God will never allow us into his Kingdom, and we have accepted this.

We know that we did wrong, we are now trying to rectify what we did, not in your eyes, who can only see the mortal wrongs, but in the eyes of God. If we never redeem ourselves in his eyes, we will be able to accept that fact, but we will know that we tried. We will know in our hearts that we tried to make that same journey easier for others.

For all those asking for us to prove our intent with Action, I will ask you to read the First Governors post again, as she stated that was our intent at the very beginning. This was not telling you of our greatness, nor of our deeds....it was informing of our purpose, nothing more.

Jamyl is dead, we know this, but we also know that the spirit of Sarum is certainly not.

We forgive you all for any misdeeds done against us, any hatred reserved for us, any judgments made about us. We accept these things as part of our path, plain and simple. This is our Fourth Age, and it is bright in our eyes.

Sieesa Morgan.


Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.23 20:00:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Archbishop
Do you believe a house supported by heretics, pirates and other assorted enemies of the Empire like Dark Seraphs roster of misfits is a good choice? That seems to be what you're promoting here lest you forget history.



Revered Archbishop, I think the intent was to say that it's a good choice to pledge ones loyalty to a strong house. And I think this is true even if it's supported by heretics, pirates or other assorted enemies of the Empire, as long as the house itself does not approve the foul activities of these entities. House Sarum is not responsible for the supporters it has, only for the support it accepts.

Furthermore I think we should take Captain Sieesa's words here serious. I think with these words Dark Seraph satisfies the condition of 'publically seeking repentence'. Now we should consider the words in the Book of Reclaiming.

I think they can be reclaimed for God. If they can, it is our responsibility to do so, isn't it?

Azador Kavian
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Black Inquisition
Posted - 2007.11.23 20:29:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

Given the history of Dark Seraph, I think that it's perfectly valid to consider them as self-aggrandising flip-floppers who rather than wanting to serve the Empire or the Sarum Family are in it for the prestige, influence and money.

There's also the matter of their past crimes against the Empire and God for which they couldn't be less contrite for.


I'd like to add that a large portion of their members served the Holy Kingdom of Khanid for a short time, until they realized that Khanid holds no place for heathen.

And Sieesa, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Only if good work is successful is it worthy.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.24 19:12:00 - [38]
 

Quote:
There are times when I have sought both forgiveness and redemption. I asked with all my heart, I was ridiculed, and laughed at. We won't ask for forgiveness now, nor in the future. We know our hands are stained, we know that God will never allow us into his Kingdom, and we have accepted this.

We know that we did wrong, we are now trying to rectify what we did, not in your eyes, who can only see the mortal wrongs, but in the eyes of God. If we never redeem ourselves in his eyes, we will be able to accept that fact, but we will know that we tried. We will know in our hearts that we tried to make that same journey easier for others.


This is the first admission I have seen of errors and acknowledgement of sin. It is a start. While the past deeds can never be unwritten I will be watching with great interest the activities of the Black Cross to judge for myself whether your hearts are sincere or whether this is just another of many deviations in direction we have seen.

Archbishop

Verjigorm
Dark Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
Posted - 2007.11.26 01:36:00 - [39]
 

This is my first return to this thread since my initial post and I find myself rather too fatigued to comment too greatly at this time.

Your words fall not on deaf ears. I would say, and understand the simply truth of this: Dark Seraph has not returned to please any capsuleer organization. The idea that we have decided to cleanse the past sins are erroneous. What is done has been done. We will not stifle ourselves and bend and capitulate to the demands of any man, our fight is more than us.

I see a divide in those that would see Dark Seraph redeem itself and those that would see her perish utterly. To those that have said words of encouragement: we are pleased and we thank you. To those that still speak against us: our actions will prove our resolve, not our words.

On the topic of Revan Neferis, which this community seems rather attached to: Dark Seraph has nothing to do with her. Any words she may have posted on my behalf without my own direct confirmation should be considered false. I do not frequent this forum nor do I intend to do so now and so I cannot police every word said of me.

Of any matter of faith or affiliation, I would ask interested parties speak to me on a less public basis. Any matter of my belief is not for the eyes of our enemies, and this forum is quite public.

Signed,

Reisha Nafina
First Governor

Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2007.11.26 18:47:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Verjigorm
Of any matter of faith or affiliation, I would ask interested parties speak to me on a less public basis. Any matter of my belief is not for the eyes of our enemies, and this forum is quite public.


I'd argue that starting an announcement thread re: your organization does precisely that; declare quite clearly to the public the affiliation of your organization. Once again I'm delighted to see a group publicly supporting an Imperial House (the wrong house, unfortunately), but it would be a shame to distance yourselves from that now.

-Silas


Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2007.11.26 19:58:00 - [41]
 

If any house would accept Sani Sabik supporters, it would be Sarum.

Tiberius Wolff
Amarr
Posted - 2007.11.26 20:01:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Silas Vitalia
...Once again I'm delighted to see a group publicly supporting an Imperial House...



Aye, if only more organizations would be so bold!

Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
Posted - 2007.11.26 23:32:00 - [43]
 

Captain Nachshon, do you have any evidence to back up this claim? Otherwise I have to think of it as speculation and malicous gossip. Sarum is at least as honorable as any other of the five great houses.

Galen Darksmith
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2007.11.28 00:04:00 - [44]
 

*looks at the bloody image underneath Verjigorm's message*

An' yer sayin' yer NOT blooders?

Scarr Face
Minmatar
EdgeGamers
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2007.11.28 09:45:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Scarr Face on 28/11/2007 09:46:39
nvm

Verjigorm
Dark Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
Posted - 2007.11.28 15:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Silas Vitalia
I'd argue that starting an announcement thread re: your organization does precisely that; declare quite clearly to the public the affiliation of your organization.


You are correct, and I see now the phrasing was incorrect. I simply mean that any matter not explored here in the case of faith or affiliation should be directed to me in a less public forum.

Kaleigh Doyle
Gallente
Racing News Network
Posted - 2007.11.28 16:10:00 - [47]
 

Something I've always adored about the Amarr is their ability to take elitism to another level. I'm sure the Order of the Black Cross hasn't much use for support from the peasant folk in PIE and VV anyway, am I right? Wink

Jonny Damordred
Moira.
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2007.11.28 16:19:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle
I'm sure the Order of the Black Cross hasn't much use for support from the peasant folk in PIE and VV anyway, am I right?


It would be a much, much shorter list to ask who has any use for either PIE or VV.

Love and Ganking,
Jonny D.

PS: On second thought, I guess thats too harsh. They are good at lounge chair galnet sniping, after all.

Shariah Ka'uthaar
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.11.28 17:56:00 - [49]
 

Perhaps "order of the Black Cross" is exactly what Amarrian loyalists need to usher in a new age for the Empire. How many of us have sinned, how many of us have had our faith questioned, and how many of us would so called "true" loyalists turn their back on?

In this new EVE that we are living in pod pilots grow at an alarming rate. "We know not that which we do".

Those of us looking to repent, those of us who feel the call of GOD in our hearts nay our souls again, where shall we go? Perhaps the Black Cross is the place for us, for they know what it is like to be seduced away from God. For they too know, having seen it from both sides, how service to God and Empire is right. We all don't have the same conviction, we don't all have the same skeletons in our closet, but we do all seek to serve the same God.

I personally see the Black Cross as a beacon for a lost soul, a way at redemption, a place to fit in, and a place where noses won't be turned up at a genuine sense of zeal to serve.

I speak not for Black Cross but for myself, a lost sinner.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.28 23:03:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/11/2007 23:10:14
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 28/11/2007 23:07:39
Originally by: Shariah Ka'uthaar
Perhaps "order of the Black Cross" is exactly what Amarrian loyalists need to usher in a new age for the Empire. How many of us have sinned, how many of us have had our faith questioned, and how many of us would so called "true" loyalists turn their back on?

In this new EVE that we are living in pod pilots grow at an alarming rate. "We know not that which we do".

Those of us looking to repent, those of us who feel the call of GOD in our hearts nay our souls again, where shall we go? Perhaps the Black Cross is the place for us, for they know what it is like to be seduced away from God. For they too know, having seen it from both sides, how service to God and Empire is right. We all don't have the same conviction, we don't all have the same skeletons in our closet, but we do all seek to serve the same God.

I personally see the Black Cross as a beacon for a lost soul, a way at redemption, a place to fit in, and a place where noses won't be turned up at a genuine sense of zeal to serve.

I speak not for Black Cross but for myself, a lost sinner.


I hope for your own sake that your sins are not as great as theirs. It would be a shame to see a pod pilot's career degenerate into sinfulness only four minutes after graduating from the Imperial Academy.

Amongst their members the Black Cross has pirates, bloodfriends and even a former member of the infamous Guiding Hand Social Club.

As for redemption, to receive it one need only repent in an appropriate manner.

Tomi Zai
Amarr
Dark Seraph
Posted - 2007.11.28 23:19:00 - [51]
 

Repentance is such a subjective issue, when those who have the power to redeem the sinners are not represented at all within the capsuleer community.

We serve Sarum, and hold ourselves answerable to said House.

We serve the Emperor, as do Sarum Family...and we both are answerable to that august authority....assuming we Amarr are blessed with such a gift of the divine.

We all serve God, and will be answerable to God on Judgement Day.

Any other supposed authority is self serving and outside our declared mandate.

Ravin Abai
Amarr
Cruoris Seraphim
Posted - 2007.11.29 03:15:00 - [52]
 

I'm not going to take issue with the pasts of your members; as my old tutor used to say: "Young master, Holders in glass castles should not throw stones."

I do, however, question your support of House Sarum, which I have come to view as a largely moribund entity within Imperial society.

I know that the Sarum still maintain a large standing army (and fleet), but how can the House maintain its cohesion and power for much longer without an Heir? I know that you swore an oath to Her Royal Highness, the Lady Jamyl, and I applaud you for your (albeit renewed) committment to fulfill it.

That being said, is this not an exercise in futility on your part? If House Sarum does not name an Heir soon, they are in grave danger of being gobbled up by another Heir or being torn apart as their more powerful vassals seek to carve out their own independent fiefdoms. Do you intend to be the bulwark against this inevitable doom? Perhaps a little pragmatism might do you some good.

Arelius Sarum
Amarr
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.29 10:48:00 - [53]
 

As a minor holder in the Sarum Family, I disapprove of your methods of harvesting and worshipping blood. Our lady would have never approved of you or your methods. Return to the path of our God, before you are beyond redemption.

If you must seek blood, there are plenty of Ushra'Khan terrorists who deserves no mercy. My house recongnizes no one that attacks our loyalists.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.29 11:39:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Tomi Zai


We serve Sarum...

...We serve the Emperor...

We all serve God...


Was Dark Seraph serving House Sarum when they declared war on the Aegis Militia?

Was Dark Seraph serving the Emperor when they (as a part of the Verisum Family) actively supported acts of piracy within the Bleak Lands?

Was Dark Seraph serving God when they declared war on the CVA?

Tablaren
Knights of Kador
The Black Armada
Posted - 2007.11.29 12:04:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Nachshon
If any house would accept Sani Sabik supporters, it would be Sarum.


Watch your words traitor, The Sarum family is far more noble then the little pus that oozes from you.

The very idea that you could begin to believe that galls me.

Shariah Ka'uthaar
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2007.11.29 13:38:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I hope for your own sake that your sins are not as great as theirs. It would be a shame to see a pod pilot's career degenerate into sinfulness only four minutes after graduating from the Imperial Academy.
Amongst their members the Black Cross has pirates, bloodfriends and even a former member of the infamous Guiding Hand Social Club.

As for redemption, to receive it one need only repent in an appropriate manner.


OOC: I have always wanted to RP amarr and only now decided to role an Amarr character, the 14minutes thing is a bit annoying from that stand point yes. I had hoped that you would overlook that Very Happy

IC: Can sins really be measured? To what depths must the sole be tarnished to truly tip the scales so far as to not return?

Kazuma Ry
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.29 14:27:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Arelius Sarum
I disapprove of your methods of harvesting and worshipping blood. Our lady would have never approved of you or your methods. Return to the path of our God, before you are beyond redemption.



I havent been in the Order for very long, I know I wasnt a pod pilot during the times that Dark Seraph or Ebon Seraph were tainted. But since I have been in the Order, I have not heard of or seen anyone Harvesting or Worshipping Blood. In my opinion those times are in the past, and the Order is returning to the path of God, and is traveling the road of Redemption.

Alas, these are my thoughts and view, and in no way are the official words of the Order.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.29 14:33:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 29/11/2007 15:18:07
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 29/11/2007 14:34:09
Originally by: Shariah Ka'uthaar
Can sins really be measured? To what depths must the sole be tarnished to truly tip the scales so far as to not return?


Under Amarrian religious law an injured party can claim restitution from the injurer, in the form of flesh and blood. Eye for an eye, pound of flesh, pluck out his eye, etcetera.

I imagine that the past sins of certain Black Cross members would require quite a large amount of flesh to be absolved. Maybe they have gotten fat enough from the proceeds of their crimes to be able to pay off their debts, in which case they will not have tipped the scales too far.

Of course, there are other methods of restitution available, but I believe that this one sets out a nice example of what is and isn't possible.

Lightof God
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.30 04:25:00 - [59]
 

/me appears on comms smoking a cigar.

Eternally devoted corperations and alliences of the Amarr empire, it rather pains me to have to say this, considering that I dislike anything inhibiting the steady march of capitalism. Say for example, your religion. Temper that with the fact for a time I lost my caldari cool and joined with the blooders, makes this extremly hard to say.

Good luck in all endevors to wipe Order of the Black Cross from the face of our beautiful universe, my door is open for any support you desire.

/me takes the cigar out of his mouth and extinguishes it on his left hand he then eyetwitches and curses softly and looks for an ashtray and a bandage, giving up on the futile act he raises his left hand, touting a rather expansive burn mark and raises his middle finger. Verjigorm, I hope you fly into a black hole.

Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2007.11.30 16:05:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Gaius Kador on 30/11/2007 16:05:57
To me, Dark Seraph died a long time ago.

As did you, Verjigorm.

This collection of misfits and malcontents will remain heretics and red. Beyond redemption.


Pages: 1 [2] 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only