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Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.11.19 17:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Veng3ance on 19/11/2007 18:34:23

I firmly believe ECM will be overpowered after this patch, while all other EW modules are being nerfed severely, ECM ships are getting a boost? How is this supposed to balance? Here is just a few things I have been noticing, especially from playing on sisi.

-ECM ships can perma-jam at least two ships during battle. This is not an absurd statement at all, I have done it, witnessed it, and hell even jammed 3-4 ships mid battle.

Now compare this to other EW ships. The now nerfed Arazu / Lachesis can BARELY break the lock of one ship. Or the Pilgrim / Curse now have nerfed tracking disruptors that literally can no longer affect a battle in any reasonable way.

-ECM range is now to long. Snipers of all shapes and forms will no longer be able to lock or fire on 200km+ ECM ships because of scripts, which are common and very very easy to setup.

-If I take ECM, fill the mid-slots of a lachesis with them, and stick amps in the bottom, I will be more effective in a gang then with my bonused damps. Is this how you wanted us to use these ships now CCP? Rolling Eyes

Ok maybe I didn't have that many points to make. Razz

But I just look at it like this. If you nerf all the games EW besides ECM, isn't that already a boost to the usage of ECM? Now if you go an BOOST ECM and STILL nerf everything else aren't you just making ECM the only choice for electronic warfare?

Maybe the Falcon needed another low-slot, but nothing else needed a boost. I can make a blackbird jam multiple ships at once, how the hell is this balanced to a post-patch celestis?

Jesnen
Amarr
Shut Up And Play
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2007.11.19 17:58:00 - [2]
 

Caldari suck, they need some lovin tbh :)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2007.11.19 17:59:00 - [3]
 

The problem is not ECM. The Falcon, Scorpion, and Blackbird all needed boosting - seriously (This comes from an Arazu pilot).

The problem is that they a rigged max skilled Arazu's effectiveness to half of what an unbonused max skilled T2 damp does now. TD's also got further marginalized in a similar way.

Again, the problem isn't ECM... the problem is that they're systematically turning the game into "tank/gank" and nothing else.

I really like a little depth to my game. =(

Liang

Ferocious FeAr
THE FINAL STAND
Everto Rex Regis
Posted - 2007.11.19 18:00:00 - [4]
 

How the hell is ECM overpowered? Nothing changed. The Caldari recon can now jam targets a bit more frequently like it was supposed to do from the start.

Get a clue.

Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2007.11.19 18:04:00 - [5]
 

The ECM ships are still not overpowered since all they do is jam. They have no dps, no drones, no tank, no tackling. The arazu can put a long range point on someone, open fire with rails, unleash drones, and damp the target.


Granted, the Damp nerf does suck. IMO, with scripts, you should still be able to damp to the same long range or same scan res you can now, just not at the same time (and same for tracking disruptors).

Veng3ance
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2007.11.19 18:05:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Veng3ance on 19/11/2007 18:09:45
Edited by: Veng3ance on 19/11/2007 18:09:09
Originally by: Ferocious FeAr
How the hell is ECM overpowered? Nothing changed. The Caldari recon can now jam targets a bit more frequently like it was supposed to do from the start.

Get a clue.


And the bonuses to said ships didn't give it more frequent jams before the changes? What is your argument?

--------

And where in my post did I say change ECM? I said don't give EXTRA bonuses to ECM ships until other forms of EW are even remotely useful!

And yes ECM is FINE right now, I have seen plenty of falcons and rooks turn the tide of a fight. After the patch ECM will be the ONLY choice of electronic warfare.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2007.11.19 18:14:00 - [7]
 

Welcome back to Caldari Online.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2007.11.19 18:56:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Stakhanov
Welcome back to Caldari Online.


It was good while it lasted...

Gaia Thorn
The Reformed
Bondage Patrol
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:03:00 - [9]
 

Why doesnt caldari stuff have scripts ?
One for range and one for strength like the rest ??

And people saying that they cant do anything are u dreaming a near maxed pilot can sit at 240km of and jam people ?
and a falcon can turn any battle around?

Please this is just another screw up by CCP as usual.

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:03:00 - [10]
 

Obviously they have changed the balancing team. Just think how a year ago they thought a 5-heavy drones myr was balanced. They even increased(!) the drone bay from 100m to 125m lol. Now all of a sudden myr and other drones ships are getting nerfed severely - how does this compute?

Then look at how the new raven is a better gank ship than geddon or thron. Who would have imagined that in rev1?

Now - against any ingame reality - tds are getting nerfed and at the same time ecm recieves a boost. It was already powerful before. Now its the single best ewar there is with a lot of room left.

One of the devs said 4 x damps on a an arazu with range scripts will damp a bs to approx. 11km. Now compare that to what a falcon or bb can do and you really have to ask yourself what kind of balance that is. Don't get me started on tds thats just plain broken and stupid.

Then the guy who said bb needs a boost: wtf? Its a freaking t1 cruiser. If i am ganglead and have the choice of either celestis, arbitrator, bellicose or bb as ewar support what am i gonna take? The other t1 ewar cruisers are a JOKE against blackbird. BB might very well be the single best t1 cruiser for gang situations there is and its the best t1-ewar cruiser in any case.

New blackbird is a freaking monster. I mean how cheap can ownage be?

And yes the other guy is correct and its more than obvious: Gallente are dead. The age of Caldari online has begun. Damn, i really thought it would be minnies or amarr again. Now, i'll just get on the bandwagon and learn caldari cruiser v and have my very own totally overpowered fun.

Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:04:00 - [11]
 

A falcon with level 4 signal disperion, 2 amp and 1 rig, and 3 muiltspec T2. have a 96% chance on jamming a BS on each cycle.

If this isn't over power, I don't know what is.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:10:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Eka Maladay
A falcon with level 4 signal disperion, 2 amp and 1 rig, and 3 muiltspec T2. have a 96% chance on jamming a BS on each cycle.

If this isn't over power, I don't know what is.


what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?

Alkeena
Gallente
Dynamic Solutions
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:30:00 - [13]
 

Indeed, other forms of EW have been nerfed to complete and utter uselessness in comparison. CCP are utterly destroying the intricate balance of this game with kudgels. Why in god's name would I fly a arazu vs a falcon?

DPS? yay, I have marginally more DPS on an Arazu than a falcon, that's not even close to the purpose of these ships, and it's **** poor not-withstanding

Ewar ability? Laughable, Falcon can reliably drop 2 BS, with a little luck 4, and can do it from obscene ranges ensuring near invulnerability. Arazu can effectively drop ONE, ship. Why wouldnt I simply bring another DPS ship instead, and just gank down that one ship I would have elliminated? The damp ships are no longer force multipliers, and if they do not serve as a force multiplier I'm much better off bringing MORE RAW FORCE = DPS.

Tackle? Sure, but other ships do it much better/more cheaply or do so only marginally worse (since most engagements occur within 25km anyway) with much more DPS, which as shown is much more useful when there is no meaningful force multiplier present.

Tank? ..... Laughing

Similar arguments can be made for TDs....

ECM is now the ONLY viable Ewar, any other case would be better filled by a DPS ship in 90% of common engagement situations. This isnt because ECM is overpowered, it actually serves its role as a force multiplier. It's because the other EWAR has been emasculated and are nigh on useless.

CCP, you're destroying your game, removing viable fitting decisions, and homogenizing...Eve will very quickly become boring on a tactical level, which is a huge blow to the allure of your game to me.

~Alkeena

Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:32:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Gaia Thorn
Why doesnt caldari stuff have scripts ?
One for range and one for strength like the rest ??



rofl. Probably because ECM doesnt affect range. Its all or nothing. How much do you want to reduce the strength of a chance based mechanism?

Nasair
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:39:00 - [15]
 

Meh they needed a boost, but the gallente damping ships got hit too hard and as ever amarr need a boost.

Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Eka Maladay
A falcon with level 4 signal disperion, 2 amp and 1 rig, and 3 muiltspec T2. have a 96% chance on jamming a BS on each cycle.

If this isn't over power, I don't know what is.


what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?


Let's talk about a Falcon, with level 4 recon, and level 4 signal Dispersion (is this too much?)

Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)

A rokh, the strongest non-faction BS in terms of sensor strength = 24

23.1 / 24 = 0.958

Go try it yourself and you will see how much pain it is to fight a Rook/falcon with decent fitting. Don't even get me started on a scorpion with level 5 BS and better skill/fitting.

breadcat
Hedion University
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:46:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: breadcat on 19/11/2007 19:46:17
I do agree with the op. Nerfing Damps(arazu, curse, pilgrim) but boosting ECM(scorp, falcon) on the other hand is not what I call balance..... Evil or Very Mad

Alkeena
Gallente
Dynamic Solutions
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:49:00 - [18]
 

what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?


Let's talk about a Falcon, with level 4 recon, and level 4 signal Dispersion (is this too much?)

Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)

A rokh, the strongest non-faction BS in terms of sensor strength = 24

23.1 / 24 = 0.958

Go try it yourself and you will see how much pain it is to fight a Rook/falcon with decent fitting. Don't even get me started on a scorpion with level 5 BS and better skill/fitting.



Actually the probability would be [1 - (1-(7.718/24))^3] = 0.6877

roughly 68.8% probability of jamming a rokh w/ 3x multispec.

What you really need to be worried about are racials.

Sovarin
Caldari
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:50:00 - [19]
 

ECM was made very crap in the last patch, the latest one will hopefully fix the balance of all EW across the races.

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:53:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Ulstan on 19/11/2007 19:56:15
Quote:
I firmly believe ECM will be overpowered after this patch, while all other EW modules are being nerfed severely, ECM ships are getting a boost? How is this supposed to balance?


Because currently ECM is underpowered and other EW modules (RSD's, for example,) are greatly overpowered.

Simple, really.

Of course, I'm completely open to the idea that perhaps RSD's are getting nerfed a little too hard in terms of their racial recon ships still being able to use them effectively, but in general, RSD's right now are too effective and ECM is not effective enough.

In general, I want to see EW remain a viable tactic and part of the game, but when RSD's are so effective that every single ship is slapping them on in spare mid slots because they are very effective against anything you face, then there is a problem.


Bael'Zhaeron
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2007.11.19 19:54:00 - [21]
 

Omg a lot of brainless ppl around here. Get in game and play and stop talking crap on forums.
So what you can permajam a bs ? If you go one on one on a rokh it will kill you with it drones and will passive tank you with your 120% chance of jamming him. Where is the overpower ?
When numbers change from 1 vs 1 then the jamming ships almost insta pop with the nonexistant tank.

Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Bael'Zhaeron
Omg a lot of brainless ppl around here. Get in game and play and stop talking crap on forums.
So what you can permajam a bs ? If you go one on one on a rokh it will kill you with it drones and will passive tank you with your 120% chance of jamming him. Where is the overpower ?
When numbers change from 1 vs 1 then the jamming ships almost insta pop with the nonexistant tank.


1. Drone are pretty easily killed. beside. ALL EW will attract aggro, not just ECM
2. If he can't lock you, you probably can do whatever you want anyway. Unlike damp/tracking dis where I sitll need to worry about range and speed.
3. Recon are not meant to be a solo ship. You obvious didn't get the point of this conversation in the first place.

Alkeena
Gallente
Dynamic Solutions
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:02:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Bael'Zhaeron
Omg a lot of brainless ppl around here. Get in game and play and stop talking crap on forums.
So what you can permajam a bs ? If you go one on one on a rokh it will kill you with it drones and will passive tank you with your 120% chance of jamming him. Where is the overpower ?
When numbers change from 1 vs 1 then the jamming ships almost insta pop with the nonexistant tank.


Only if you're fighting a complete nubbin.

Rook/Falcon will just sit at 150km, or if fleet, 230-240 km (yes they can get effective ranges that high fairly trivially) and never be touched while you get torn apart by their gang. EW is a force multiplier, of course it wont do much 1v1, the recons were never meant for 1v1 operation. The issue now is that the ONLY type of EW with any reasonable force multiplier are the ECM ships, in the other cases you're better off bringing more raw force (DPS) instead since their force multipliers are now effectively '1' (They remove one enemy from the fight [and not even terribly effectively]).

~Alkeena

Ulstan
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:06:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)



I think we found the problem. You don't know your math.

Also, part of the problem is the chance based all or nothing set up of ECM. No one puts a single random multi ECM module on their ship because it will most likely do nothing.

But even a single RSD is guaranteed to be useful in *multiple ways* against *every* opponent you face.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, they aren't boosting ECM so much as boosting the least used ECM ships (scorp, blackbird, falcon). Now granted, these are the only ships that really use ECM but that just points to how specialized it is and how hard to take advantage of it it is. Unlike RSD's you can't just splash an ECM multi on a ship and hamper both your opponents locking range and locking time, guaranteed. So it's kind of like a boost to ECM, in that the ECM dedicated ships in the game are getting a boost. They need it. A caldari jamming ship has zero tank. Caldari jamming is chance based, so there is a high chance you'll get unlucky and then your opponent suffers no ill effect at all from your 4 jamming modules, locks you, and blasts you to smithereens through your paper thin defenses.

Also, I don't see why TD are getting nerfed in effectiveness, not like anyone really used them anyway. But then, that might mean it's a nerf without a victim.


Cythrawl
Caldari
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:09:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Alkeena
what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?


Let's talk about a Falcon, with level 4 recon, and level 4 signal Dispersion (is this too much?)

Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)

A rokh, the strongest non-faction BS in terms of sensor strength = 24

23.1 / 24 = 0.958

Go try it yourself and you will see how much pain it is to fight a Rook/falcon with decent fitting. Don't even get me started on a scorpion with level 5 BS and better skill/fitting.



Actually the probability would be [1 - (1-(7.718/24))^3] = 0.6877

roughly 68.8% probability of jamming a rokh w/ 3x multispec.

What you really need to be worried about are racials.


Actually, if you're so damn afraid of running into an ECM boat, fit an eccm mod on your ship. A t2 gravametric gives 96% to the strength of your base sensor str on a caldari boat. On a rokh that is 47.04. That pretty much eliminates ANY chance of being jammed by a non-caldari racial fitted ecm boat. Even then, that reduces a racial boat to about a 50% chance with 3 racials.

People who complain could use the mods that counter it and stop whining like a bunch of little girls if they get killed or die with at least some dignity.

I still think remote sensor damps need a buff on their specialized damping boats, but that's because they are truly stacking nerfed compared to ECM. And almost everybody fits sensor boosters, their counter...

Bael'Zhaeron
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:11:00 - [26]
 

If you were a scorp pilot before the ecm nerf then you know what jamming meant. Now it's just crap and in a fleet you see 10% of what used to be jamming ships . Also if you sit at 150 km with your falcon how can you tackle the target ? If you have a friend that it's no longer overpower .. a lachesis and a huginn can kill any 1 ship alone .

Anyway I just want to say that ecm is not overpowered form my pov .

Eka Maladay
Gallente
The Elliance
Posted - 2007.11.19 20:17:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Alkeena
what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?


Let's talk about a Falcon, with level 4 recon, and level 4 signal Dispersion (is this too much?)

Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)

A rokh, the strongest non-faction BS in terms of sensor strength = 24

23.1 / 24 = 0.958

Go try it yourself and you will see how much pain it is to fight a Rook/falcon with decent fitting. Don't even get me started on a scorpion with level 5 BS and better skill/fitting.



Actually the probability would be [1 - (1-(7.718/24))^3] = 0.6877

roughly 68.8% probability of jamming a rokh w/ 3x multispec.

What you really need to be worried about are racials.


True, I think I was thinking about a Scorpion with 4 muiltspec and better skill when it come to 96%

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2007.11.19 21:02:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Alkeena
what strenght numbers are you getting? And against which BS?


Let's talk about a Falcon, with level 4 recon, and level 4 signal Dispersion (is this too much?)

Each t2 muilt-spec jammer is 7.718~, times three, equal to 23.1 (Chances DO stack)

A rokh, the strongest non-faction BS in terms of sensor strength = 24

23.1 / 24 = 0.958

Go try it yourself and you will see how much pain it is to fight a Rook/falcon with decent fitting. Don't even get me started on a scorpion with level 5 BS and better skill/fitting.



Actually the probability would be [1 - (1-(7.718/24))^3] = 0.6877

roughly 68.8% probability of jamming a rokh w/ 3x multispec.

What you really need to be worried about are racials.



Your wrong, sorry but ECMs don't stack.

Each ECM has percentage chance of jamming. They don't add together to give you the number you magically came up with. Yes by fitting that many ECM your increasing your CHANCE of jamming the target. But at the expense of one cycle time, cap, and not knowing if you are successful or not.

With all other EWAR in the game there is no guess, and no risk of the mod not working. You know when you use a sensor damp it will cut the targets targeting range and it's locking speed 100% of the time no questions. With ECM you have at best 30-35% per mod of jamming a battleship for a limited amount of time. To add you may have 4 sensor damps, this will allow you to block 2 targets incredibly well, or 4 targets where they aren't going to be happy. ECM doesn't even come close to this. The way it works right now is that you have a poor chance of blocking one ship for the cap use, and cycle time of the mod for the off chance to actually be successful.

Lets talk about the cap use for this as well as it is very important. You use a Sensor Damp 100% effective, I have to use 3 ECMs I know with out looking in game that I have already used a hell of a lot more cap then you for the CHANCE to block the guy for a limited amount of time. Sorry but where does this add up?

Here are the numbers for you to think about

Sensor Damp 2
Cap 36 energy per 10 second cycle (times this by 2 to equal 72 energy, this is no equal to an multispectral II ecm)
Optimal Range 30km
Falloff 60km

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
Cap: 132 Energy per 20 second cycle time ( WHAT! This uses 50 more cap then your tech 2 Sensor Damp! For a 30%-35% CHANCE! of blocking a target, something smells fishy. . . Must be that Icelandic Pee Shark.)
Optimal 36KM
Falloff 18km (DEAR GOD! ECM also have a shorter over all range! These DEVs must be smoking something, and I want some)

To some this up, ECM is currently the weakest EWAR mod in the game, even on a ship specialized to use it and fitted full tech 2, Great skills (All of mine with the exception of Reconships are 5)still have issues. The ships also support next to no DPS and next to no tank.

I have the up most respect to CCP and their DEV team to bringing more BALANCE to the game. I will agree that at one time the ECM was overpowered, but not now. Your numbers and arguments don't add up, sorry. But what CCP is doing here is great! ECM can only do one thing it's either Jam or not, and thats all chance, the other EWAR is 100% effective, and can do 2 things in their current state. God bless the DEVs at CCP for waking up to these facts and doing something about them.


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2007.11.19 21:19:00 - [29]
 

ECM will be good on the ships intended to use it. No problems there.

The gallente, minmatar and amarr EW ships should also be adjusted to 'balance out' the nerf. That way specilised ships perform as they should, while limiting a modules usefulness on ALL ships.

C.


Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2007.11.19 21:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Alkeena
Indeed, other forms of EW have been nerfed to complete and utter uselessness in comparison. CCP are utterly destroying the intricate balance of this game with kudgels. Why in god's name would I fly a arazu vs a falcon?


What balance is that? The balance where it where people put sensor damp on the scorpion instead of ECM?


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