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Lady Valory
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:25:00 - [1]
 

Hi, all,

Here is what I mean:

All the isk sinks are about combat. I buy bpos, ships, outposts, pos's etc to fuel a competitive edge in combat.


However, many of us industrialists don't want to participate in combat. SO our billions of isk just grow and grow and we make MORE isk... I've about 80 billions now in assets and I've given up buying more stuff as I have a lifetime of ships etc ...

Next, combat is so so so so lopsided with blobs vs nanos that many of us can't really participate--at least not to the same level that we can doing industry. I mean this... so I fit out a 100mil isk ship and go out and get blobbed or nanoed to death either solo or in my gang. So then I go, "This wasn't fun and I return to making isk and chatting with my friends, etc."

In turn the inflation and isk in game continues to skyrocket and deflation is only held in check because hoarders like me are sitting on billions of isk with nothing to do with it...

Why nothing... because every isk sink is related to the combat and thus combat is the problem... Why am I going to buy something for COMBAT when I don't necessarily WANT combat? And what combat I do do doesnt take billions of ISK.

What is my solution---add ISK sinks that are NOT combat!

I'd pay a billion isk to add a satelite hospital around a planet or to endow an intergalectic library, etc.

I'd pay isk to add decals and paint to all my ships just because it would look cool.

In other words--can't we HAVE anything in the game to buy that doesn't move to combat either directly or tangentially?

Such an isk sink might surprise people with how many trillions it would siphon away just for those of us who want to spend isk to make the game more interesting or thematic.






cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:27:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: cal nereus on 15/11/2007 23:29:37

The intergalactic library can already be done, but it doesn't cost isk. All you have to do is post a lot anywhere, or make a website. Heck, do what Chribba did! We'll love you if you are Chribba.

Edit: And Eve is basically an RTS, except each player is a pawn instead of the leader of a nation... so ya, if you're playing this game, it's implied that you like being a pawn in RTS-style combat. Confused

Edit 2: On the other hand, I really like what you're proposing. I've always wanted to be able to colonize a planet. It'd be slow and costly, but fun!

Zavernus Hamarabi
Caldari
Rare Earth Elements
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:29:00 - [3]
 

When was the eve economy a problem again?
Or is this just an omniwhine thread in disguise?

Kenneth McCoy
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:29:00 - [4]
 

I agree with you in spirit, but in practice, we'd need to come up with stuff far more concrete and useful than what you've suggested thus far.

Industry fuels violence, that's just the way it is in the game, for the most part.

2k7
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:31:00 - [5]
 

or you could just give your moeny to me.


no? bleh.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:31:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Tarminic on 15/11/2007 23:37:25
Originally by: Lady Valory

In turn the inflation and isk in game continues to skyrocket and deflation is only held in check because hoarders like me are sitting on billions of isk with nothing to do with it...

Actually, inflation isn't a problem right now. You should watch the economic panel they showed at fanfest.

Quote:
What is my solution---add ISK sinks that are NOT combat!

I'd pay a billion isk to add a satelite hospital around a planet or to endow an intergalectic library, etc.

I'd pay isk to add decals and paint to all my ships just because it would look cool.

In other words--can't we HAVE anything in the game to buy that doesn't move to combat either directly or tangentially?

But unless those ISK sinks are temporary (a.k.a. consumables), it won't do much good. That means that no matter how much ISK it costs, it would still be exhausted (or significantly diminished) after a certain period of time. In addition, since inflation isn't a huge problem at the moment, I don't think we need to be adding arbitrary ISK sinks into the game.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:33:00 - [7]
 

I have a feeling that more "fluff" will be introduced with ambulation.

Lady Valory
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:35:00 - [8]
 

Well, for starters, all trade goods are now obsolete with the current evolution of the game.

They should all be moved to spacebase or moon production.

For example... orbital hostpital produces 100000 antibiotics a day with starbase construction 5 and advanced medical tech. 5

lunar mining 5 and advanced production 5 lets you make 100000 construction blocks a day... etc

You could do this with all trade goods and remove their npc sell orders from market.

Then add the modules and bpos to market to build all these NON combat structures for isk sinks.

2k7
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:37:00 - [9]
 

i know i know!


make guns shoot isk!



Lady Valory
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:42:00 - [10]
 

To inflation isn't a problem----

Inflation isn't a problem because hoarders are sitting on billions and trillions of isk with NOTHING to buy!

We aren't driving up the cost of anything...

Also there are few "necessities" that anyone needs to buy that would cause inflation... There is no "scarcity of goods" being chased by "too many dollars". Thus no inflation ...

For example, heavy water is flat at 40 isk PU. It's been around that forever and more or deflated...

If every ship took 10 heavy water per jump, then the price would go up as billions and billions of isk are pumped into the heavy water market--that is inflation.

Nothing in EVE is actually needed in such a large number that there is any real inflation. We have "price scarcity inflation" in 0.0 due to lack of goods but that is a trade imbalance... not true inflation.

So the "inflation is not an issue" is a complete FAKE. Inflation isn't an issue because the economy is so out of whack that it hasn't even evolved to the level that it can sustain true inflation as an economic model...

Example of that... why don't ice roids actually run out of ice EVERYWHERE in eve after 1000-3000 blocks? That would start some sort of inflation with ice and ice products...

Why don't bpos "degenerate" as the number of copies produced on them start to degrade the original? That would start some true inflaction...

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lady Valory
Why nothing... because every isk sink is related to the combat and thus combat is the problem... Why am I going to buy something for COMBAT when I don't necessarily WANT combat? And what combat I do do doesnt take billions of ISK.


What ISK sinks in game are related to combat? (Hint: ships and modules destroyed != ISk sink)

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:44:00 - [12]
 

Do you have professional qualifications that would make me want to believe you instead of a PhD in economics?

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:46:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lady Valory
To inflation isn't a problem----

Inflation isn't a problem because hoarders are sitting on billions and trillions of isk with NOTHING to buy!

We aren't driving up the cost of anything...

Also there are few "necessities" that anyone needs to buy that would cause inflation... There is no "scarcity of goods" being chased by "too many dollars". Thus no inflation ...

For example, heavy water is flat at 40 isk PU. It's been around that forever and more or deflated...

If every ship took 10 heavy water per jump, then the price would go up as billions and billions of isk are pumped into the heavy water market--that is inflation.

Nothing in EVE is actually needed in such a large number that there is any real inflation. We have "price scarcity inflation" in 0.0 due to lack of goods but that is a trade imbalance... not true inflation.

So the "inflation is not an issue" is a complete FAKE. Inflation isn't an issue because the economy is so out of whack that it hasn't even evolved to the level that it can sustain true inflation as an economic model...

Example of that... why don't ice roids actually run out of ice EVERYWHERE in eve after 1000-3000 blocks? That would start some sort of inflation with ice and ice products...

Why don't bpos "degenerate" as the number of copies produced on them start to degrade the original? That would start some true inflaction...


You're worse at this than Yaay.

Aitrus
Amarr
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:47:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Aitrus on 15/11/2007 23:51:38
What you're talking about isn't inflation. Just because you make lots of isk and don't lose anything doesn't mean the economy is inflating. If you are an industrialist, then I assume a majority of your wealth came from other players. Meaning for you to make isk, others spend isk. It's not being created, it's being transferred.

The fact that wealth may be stagnating in some areas is an issue, but it's not inflation.

Besides. Most of the isk sinks are NOT directly related to combat. BPOs, skills, rental fees, taxes. These are isk sinks. When a PVP'er loses a ship, it's not an isk sink, because the isk is still in the hands of the person he bought the ship from.

The only isk sinks directly related to combat are clones and ship insurance.

Pheonix Tear
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:51:00 - [15]
 

It pains me to see you in such a quandry.Mad Too much money, eh?Twisted Evil Sounds like you need to find a corp or alliance to support with equipment and such, that is a Non-Combat (for you at least) isk sink. Either that or build cap ships, that'll sink 80 bill real fast.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:51:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lady Valory
Hi, all,

Here is what I mean:

All the isk sinks are about combat. I buy bpos, ships, outposts, pos's etc to fuel a competitive edge in combat.


However, many of us industrialists don't want to participate in combat. SO our billions of isk just grow and grow and we make MORE isk... I've about 80 billions now in assets and I've given up buying more stuff as I have a lifetime of ships etc ...

Next, combat is so so so so lopsided with blobs vs nanos that many of us can't really participate--at least not to the same level that we can doing industry. I mean this... so I fit out a 100mil isk ship and go out and get blobbed or nanoed to death either solo or in my gang. So then I go, "This wasn't fun and I return to making isk and chatting with my friends, etc."

In turn the inflation and isk in game continues to skyrocket and deflation is only held in check because hoarders like me are sitting on billions of isk with nothing to do with it...

Why nothing... because every isk sink is related to the combat and thus combat is the problem... Why am I going to buy something for COMBAT when I don't necessarily WANT combat? And what combat I do do doesnt take billions of ISK.

What is my solution---add ISK sinks that are NOT combat!

I'd pay a billion isk to add a satelite hospital around a planet or to endow an intergalectic library, etc.

I'd pay isk to add decals and paint to all my ships just because it would look cool.

In other words--can't we HAVE anything in the game to buy that doesn't move to combat either directly or tangentially?

Such an isk sink might surprise people with how many trillions it would siphon away just for those of us who want to spend isk to make the game more interesting or thematic.








From a combat pilot I have to agree with the OP. Perhaps some of this stuff will come with ambulation. However, even I would gladly funnel isk into silly details like ship decals.

-Karl

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:56:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 15/11/2007 23:56:48
Originally by: Lady Valory
Hi, all,

Here is what I mean:

All the isk sinks are about combat. I buy bpos, ships, outposts, pos's etc to fuel a competitive edge in combat.


However, many of us industrialists don't want to participate in combat. SO our billions of isk just grow and grow and we make MORE isk... I've about 80 billions now in assets and I've given up buying more stuff as I have a lifetime of ships etc ...


I envy you. With 80 bil, I'd have all the toys I need and run my four accounts for free via gtcs, until EVE shuts down. Laughing

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:57:00 - [18]
 

Here's an idea for you Valory,

What if you had the option to pay workers to build for you. They could help build things a little faster, maybe help invent a little faster, perhaps increase yields at moon miners or such things. You would have to feed them and buy them luxury goods of course to keep them happy. Find housing for them, etc.

Then one day these workers can be civilians if/when we ever get to play with planets. You could perhaps raise tax revenue from them, which you would then use to build hospitals, schools, factories and such things. These structures would consume ISK to remain operational. These structures in turn would help keep your populations happy and healthy so they could work for you. Properly balanced, the tax revenue and ISK required to run these structures would be both ISK faucet and sink, allowing you, the player, to act as government, in the macro economic sense.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:57:00 - [19]
 

Permit me to add that isk sinks or currency sinks are used in almost every MMO to limit inflation and to keep the amount of isk created balanced.

You see, unlike real economies, in MMOs you have an issue with created currency. There isn't a limited supply of cash changing hands between human beings. Every NPC you kill and mission you run creates isk that wasn't there and tends to lead in older games to hyper inflation.

Eventually you have an issue with new players being priced out of routine items. So while the rats in low-sec might have meant something significant in the past in terms of there ability to get noobs right into buying ships, items, etc to compete on more equal footing with the old players, these days the 100k isk spawns get you hardly anything.

Isk sinks are good, especially ones that also add to the game. Stuff like housing, decorations, clothing, etc add flare to a game while also allowing currency to flow out of the economy... thus limiting run away MMO inflation.

You don't know what I mean? Try logging onto an EQ server. Shocked

-Karl

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Aitrus
Edited by: Aitrus on 15/11/2007 23:51:38
What you're talking about isn't inflation. Just because you make lots of isk and don't lose anything doesn't mean the economy is inflating. If you are an industrialist, then I assume a majority of your wealth came from other players. Meaning for you to make isk, others spend isk. It's not being created, it's being transferred.

The fact that wealth may be stagnating in some areas is an issue, but it's not inflation.

Besides. Most of the isk sinks are NOT directly related to combat. BPOs, skills, rental fees, taxes. These are isk sinks. When a PVP'er loses a ship, it's not an isk sink, because the isk is still in the hands of the person he bought the ship from.

The only isk sinks directly related to combat are clones and ship insurance.


Exactly, and the latter is usually a net faucet since you get a lot more than you pay and a lot of ships only last one insurance period and rarely more than two.

Conscious
Gallente
Haru Chai
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:57:00 - [21]
 

This may be an ignorant question, but what about the recent tritanium cost spike we went through? I used to be able to buy trit for 1.8+- ISK, then it jumped up as high as 3.5 ISK, now settled down to around 2.3 ISK.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Conscious
This may be an ignorant question, but what about the recent tritanium cost spike we went through? I used to be able to buy trit for 1.8+- ISK, then it jumped up as high as 3.5 ISK, now settled down to around 2.3 ISK.

Some markets have seen significant price increases, but this is balanced out by other markets. As I stated before, there's a lot of detailed information in the economic presentation at the EVE TV website.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.11.15 23:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Conscious
This may be an ignorant question, but what about the recent tritanium cost spike we went through? I used to be able to buy trit for 1.8+- ISK, then it jumped up as high as 3.5 ISK, now settled down to around 2.3 ISK.


Changes in game mechanics caused it.

Shakalakahiki
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:06:00 - [24]
 

Spacebase simulation would be a great step. By this I mean you can own and grow your starbase in a Simcity style sandbox. Not quite as complex, but give the option to sell Apartments and corporation headquarters/offices, while also giving the user the ability to design the layout.

It would be really neat to be a starbase commander who would have to decide if putting the intergalactic casinos next to residential headquarters is better than having it next to military academies.

They would also have to keep their rent fares competitive to other stations while organizing logistics and such.

This would work really well with ambulation and would give a neat top side and RPG side to gameplay.

Aitrus
Amarr
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild


Exactly, and the latter is usually a net faucet since you get a lot more than you pay and a lot of ships only last one insurance period and rarely more than two.


Only if you use T1 ships and mods. Have you ever looked at the insurance payouts on tech II ships?

There are actually relatively few true faucets and sinks.

Faucets:
new character creation
Mission rewards
NPC bounties
Insurance Payouts
tradegoods (NPC buying)

Sinks:
Clones
Skills
Insurance premiums
Tech 1 BPO's
factory/lab rentals
taxes and fees
tradegoods (NPC selling)

Now, The thing that you must remember is that the info/outflow does not need to be balanced on an individual player basis. It needs to be balanced across the economy.

A mission runner who never dies is generating positive isk into the economy, while a manufacturer who sells products is taking isk out of the economy. Ideally all the isk coming in to the game is balanced with all the isk going out.

yar'gdargen
Dawn of Fire
Black-Out
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:09:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: yar''gdargen on 16/11/2007 00:09:57
I think the op has a legitimate point about the absence of non-combat sinks.

After having just read the first econ report there is more isk coming into the game than leaving it. This is partially due to the increase in the playerbase, but not entirely.

Non-combat isk sinks besides investments like bpo's and such are not a horrible idea. As well as the op's sink ideas more could be tied in with ambulation(ETA: who knows) and character customization.

Its going to be hilarious when a worthless shirt costs as much as a starship.



Shakalakahiki
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:10:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Here's an idea for you Valory,

What if you had the option to pay workers to build for you. They could help build things a little faster, maybe help invent a little faster, perhaps increase yields at moon miners or such things. You would have to feed them and buy them luxury goods of course to keep them happy. Find housing for them, etc.

Then one day these workers can be civilians if/when we ever get to play with planets. You could perhaps raise tax revenue from them, which you would then use to build hospitals, schools, factories and such things. These structures would consume ISK to remain operational. These structures in turn would help keep your populations happy and healthy so they could work for you. Properly balanced, the tax revenue and ISK required to run these structures would be both ISK faucet and sink, allowing you, the player, to act as government, in the macro economic sense.




I was thinking of something like this as well, by adding a new resource: Crew. If they want to move to factional warfare and such, they could also give leadership a more valuable roll. You could progress through ranks from captain to grand fleet admiral. The higher rank, the more ships you can control. To avoid flooding eve with numerous amounts of ships though, have a crew resource. Every ship has to have a certain amount of crew who require dayly upkeep. That way people won't grow too fast or grow too large.

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:11:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: yar'gdargen
I think the op has a legitimate point.

After having just read the first econ report there is more isk coming into the game than leaving it. This is partially due to the increase in the playerbase, but not entirely.

Non-combat isk sinks besides investments like bpo's and such are not a horrible idea. As well as the op's sink ideas more could be tied in with ambulation(ETA: who knows) and character customization.

Its going to be hilarious when a worthless shirt costs as much as a starship.

Think of it this way...purchasing one of my whines costs as much as 2-3 cruisers or close to a hundred frigates. Laughing

Ms DaisyMae
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:16:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi
When was the eve economy a problem again?
Or is this just an omniwhine thread in disguise?

The Op wants to blow a huge wad of isk, but there is nothing non combat related to blow it on. All that stuff about funding libraries, colonizing planets, can be translated to "This blowing up ships and poses is so small ****, I want to build an empire so that I can be amused by peons like Zavernus fighting over it"

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2007.11.16 00:16:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Aitrus
Only if you use T1 ships and mods. Have you ever looked at the insurance payouts on tech II ships?


What about them? They're a lot higher than the payments, just like with tech 1.

It's just that the ship itself has a much higher market price, but that has nothing to do with ISK sinks and faucets.


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