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violator2k5
Poor Old Ornery nOObs
Turdz Asshatz N Grieferz
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:07:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin
Plus, thats assuming we get 100% of the 200k accounts voting. If RL voting is any indicator, expect 50-75% of that to actually cast a ballot. Playing field narrows further.


humm, well it is to be expected, i mean not everyone visits the forum so i doubt they'll visit the site much either.

it would be nice if it was 1 person 1 vote, ah well.

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:27:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

“Players receiving proxy votes will not know the names of anyone transferring votes to them. Instead, they will only have a counter displaying how many proxies they have received”

Ok, so Joe Noob connects, gets into a corp and then one day corp says to joe noob, “Give us your proxy vote right now or you will be podded! Yarr” and the Yarr Party watches the little counter to see if joe noob has done as was demanded.




Originally by: GM Xhagen


The way the system is supposed to work, no one will be able to verify that you actually transferred the vote. Hence, someone buying/bullying/whatevermeans votes will never been able to verify in any form or fashion that the vote is under his control.



Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:36:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: GM Xhagen


The way the system is supposed to work, no one will be able to verify that you actually transferred the vote. Hence, someone buying/bullying/whatevermeans votes will never been able to verify in any form or fashion that the vote is under his control.


...unless they involve RL "vote buying" into this equation, in which it is very possible for people who do watch over other people's choice as they give their proxy vote.

Coming from an MMOG community that is rife with over-the-shoulder RL underhandedness, I'm not surprised there isnt a way to even consider this, even though it is indeed borderline EULA/TOS breaking.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:37:00 - [64]
 

One thing the document didnt cover. How do you throw your hat into the ring?

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:42:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
I’ve some concerns with a two items, proxy and account status.

...

Other than these two things, it looked pretty good to me.



I want to agree with Adunh Slavy about both points, proxy and account status... while the account status point (seems to me) to be glaring and obvious, it needs to be spelled out in black and white...

as for the Proxy, while I am not as worried about the bully part or the Corp part, what I see is a problem with voting...

Polls open, I go in and, with my 100 proxy votes, cast all 101 votes for Chribba... 70 of the people who gave me their proxy withdraw that proxy and go to vote... they are allowed to withdraw their proxy, but I have already voted in their names, they then vote again, or worse, hand out their proxy to another who votes... they withdraw and hand and so it continues until the polls close...

1 account, 1 vote, no proxy... you don't care to vote, you don't... let the folks that care enough to vote determine who will represent them.

jongalt
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:49:00 - [66]
 

goumindong needs to be nominated.

if only for amarr's sake.

-jg.

Bein Glorious
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:51:00 - [67]
 

Does being banned from the EVE-Online forums count as a TOS violation that would invalidate someone's chance at candidacy?

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2007.11.15 01:58:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Bein Glorious
Does being banned from the EVE-Online forums count as a TOS violation that would invalidate someone's chance at candidacy?



Since it sounds like they're going to create a new subforum for committee/council relations, that would put a crimp in your elligibility, just on the surface of it.

Mik Nostrebor
Minmatar
Ex Coelis
Posted - 2007.11.15 02:14:00 - [69]
 

Can I point out a flaw in your system?

At the moment it is heavily weighted towards specific parts of your clientelle. Ie those in the US and to a lesser extent the UK and maybe Germany. People in these areas will take all the roles and those of us in less populous areas will once again be ignored.

Really I am getting sick of CCP's continuous and obvious bias against people not in those areas. Our fansites get de-listed, downtimes are right in the middle of our peak play periods, CCP support staff are not online when we are, CCP won't allow the sale of GT Cards/Online codes sales in our countries and many many many other degradations of service and consideration.

With this new system, once again, the geographically challenged players will get shafted by the vocal cousins in the central western world. Why could you not have set some sort of quota of places based on geography. We understand that we are the minority and do not expect to have "undue" weighting in our direction and maybe 1 seat could be put aside for our region (SE Asia/Pacific Islands).

A candidate from our area would give us a voice in the darkness. It would do a lot to help bring players together and improve their game experience. It would see better player account retention in this region and increased sales resulting from that. Sales of people that use the servers in the quieter times (ie not requiring more money to be spent on hardware/bandwidth to service them).

Even though we are a minority, we do have a valid case to be answered and deserve a voice!

Mik
Site admin
EVE - ANZ player fansite



Luigi Thirty
Caldari
The Minmatarded
Posted - 2007.11.15 04:30:00 - [70]
 

Hey, I've got an account and a passport, now how do I sign up?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.11.15 04:51:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 15/11/2007 05:00:12
Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin
Originally by: Adunh Slavy

snip


Originally by: GM Xhagen

snip





Thanks Vlad, I saw that too, Xhagen’s quote from the other thread and that conflicts with this from the CSM,

“Players receiving proxy votes will not know the names of anyone transferring votes to them. Instead, they will only have a counter displaying how many proxies they have received”

This is in conflict with this, “no one will be able to verify that you actually transferred the vote.”

If I can check to see if a number goes up, that means I can verify because that data is time sensitive. Let’s do a hypothetical where I only strong arm one person into giving me their vote, now I know for sure who has given me the vote or rescinded the vote. The two statements are in conflict.

If a candidate is so good, then as a voter I’ll be motivated to vote or him. If he’s just some wnaekr I’m going to rescind as soon as possible. So why put paying customers though that sort of hassle? It doesn’t make sense to me.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.11.15 04:56:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Hamfast

Polls open, I go in and, with my 100 proxy votes, cast all 101 votes for Chribba... 70 of the people who gave me their proxy withdraw that proxy and go to vote... they are allowed to withdraw their proxy, but I have already voted in their names, they then vote again, or worse, hand out their proxy to another who votes... they withdraw and hand and so it continues until the polls close...



This is a good point. It is not spelled out if a proxy can be rescinded after a vote is cast or not. If it can not, then this makes the strong arm problem more acute, if it can then we get complete chaos, which is not the goal of government.

Quote:

1 account, 1 vote, no proxy... you don't care to vote, you don't... let the folks that care enough to vote determine who will represent them.


/signed, err, voted, whatever Smile

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.11.15 05:14:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 15/11/2007 05:18:48
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste

Originally by: Adunh Slavy

snip


snip
I also have a feeling that the proxy vote casting is going to be an imperfect system, because this is Eve, and a lot of Eve is doing everything in your power within the rules of the system to come out on top, be it in combat, the market, politics, or whatever. I would be interested in how a proxy system that could -not- be manipulated as you described above could be implemented. Is it even possible? We're dealing with humans here, nothing is going to work 100%, we just want to minimize the error/noise.


Yep, so just get rid of it, then it has no possibility of being imperfect. Adding complexity serves no purpose in this regard.

I am a multi account holder. If issues are important enough to me, then I can take the extra few minutes twice a year to vote my accounts. Anyone who is also a multi account holder obviously likes Eve, so will more than likely take the time to vote their accounts. Hate to do it but, “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” :geek:

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.11.15 05:20:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Mik Nostrebor
Can I point out a flaw in your system?

At the moment it is heavily weighted towards specific parts of your clientelle. Ie those in the US and to a lesser extent the UK and maybe Germany. People in these areas will take all the roles and those of us in less populous areas will once again be ignored.

Really I am getting sick of CCP's continuous and obvious bias against people not in those areas. Our fansites get de-listed, downtimes are right in the middle of our peak play periods, CCP support staff are not online when we are, CCP won't allow the sale of GT Cards/Online codes sales in our countries and many many many other degradations of service and consideration.

With this new system, once again, the geographically challenged players will get shafted by the vocal cousins in the central western world. Why could you not have set some sort of quota of places based on geography. We understand that we are the minority and do not expect to have "undue" weighting in our direction and maybe 1 seat could be put aside for our region (SE Asia/Pacific Islands).

A candidate from our area would give us a voice in the darkness. It would do a lot to help bring players together and improve their game experience. It would see better player account retention in this region and increased sales resulting from that. Sales of people that use the servers in the quieter times (ie not requiring more money to be spent on hardware/bandwidth to service them).

Even though we are a minority, we do have a valid case to be answered and deserve a voice!

Mik
Site admin
EVE - ANZ player fansite





Having to quote this for effect, mildly.

As for me, a fellow EVE player who is from SE-Asia-Pacific, I do not see a problem in regards to GTC sales where I live, since my country has a preferred (confirmed by Kieron and CCP) GTC seller in the form of an MMO localization company here.

If it werent for this company and CCP's allowance for such, I wouldnt be playing this game.

The sad part is that many other countries in our region of the world do not have this privilege that people nearer to the Atlantic already have as a requirement, let alone a privilege.

Lets not forget 414.95 or a $15 GTC is worth way more here that over there. There's a lot of dissent over here CCP, I wont lie, and its not only because of the price...

Kala Veijo
Veto Corp
Posted - 2007.11.15 08:00:00 - [75]
 

CSM didn´t stand for Chaos Space Marines? Sad

iudex
Posted - 2007.11.15 08:24:00 - [76]
 

Nice CCP, i thought this is only a computergame but you make a more and more realistic cyber-society out of it, so that it becomes more than only a mmog - very interesting Cool

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2007.11.15 08:45:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Richard Bartle
Basically, CCP (the EVE Online developers) want to democratise their virtual world because they have so many players that they're being overwhelmed by suggestions for ways to change or improve their virtual world. They want a council of players to put the best ideas to them, with the council-members decided by popular vote. I told them that this wouldn't work because CCP still had the final say (they're gods, not a government), so the players actually had no new powers at all. However, using the word "democracy" would give them the impression they did have power, so it would all end in tears when they discovered that they didn't.

Jameroz
Echoes of Space
Posted - 2007.11.15 10:27:00 - [78]
 

Sure will be interesting to see how all this works out.

Basically we as players are saying who we want to take CCP's current role and try to find the big issues that players have. Surely this will take some workload off CCP, but how much difference will it make in the end? Every 3 months CCP gets list of issues? (Twice per term) But the issues are already available at the forums... can the council bring something special to the table? Can it address issues fast enough?

Representatives get the power to choose which issues are important and promote ideas, but in the end their impact might be rather small. That being said I wouldn't mind position in the council. But 9 positions and huge playerbase probably means the famous people will get in or people who got large alliances to back them up. I just hope they can do what's best for the whole playerbase instead of action in the interest of their own group.

Definately it's better to choose the council by voting than having CCP select it!

And atleast this will generate some buzz around Eve!

Dr Aryandi
Posted - 2007.11.15 11:31:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 15/11/2007 05:00:12
Originally by: Vladimir Tinakin
Originally by: Adunh Slavy

snip


Originally by: GM Xhagen

snip





Thanks Vlad, I saw that too, Xhagen’s quote from the other thread and that conflicts with this from the CSM,

“Players receiving proxy votes will not know the names of anyone transferring votes to them. Instead, they will only have a counter displaying how many proxies they have received”

This is in conflict with this, “no one will be able to verify that you actually transferred the vote.”

If I can check to see if a number goes up, that means I can verify because that data is time sensitive. Let’s do a hypothetical where I only strong arm one person into giving me their vote, now I know for sure who has given me the vote or rescinded the vote. The two statements are in conflict.

If a candidate is so good, then as a voter I’ll be motivated to vote or him. If he’s just some wnaekr I’m going to rescind as soon as possible. So why put paying customers though that sort of hassle? It doesn’t make sense to me.



I thought that about proxies too - then it occurred to me that you can remove your proxy at any time - and that is not time sensitive.

So you grant your proxy, wait a few weeks, then take it back.

If anyone is 'strong arming' lots of votes then they have no way of knowing who has taken them back.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:22:00 - [80]
 

Why is it limited to two terms? I thought this was supposed to aim for what the community wanted? If Pilot A does a great job and the community supports him he still cannot get elected a 3rd time - thus forcing us to maybe have a pilot who handles everything worse.

And as you stated, if a CSM member does a bad job he will most likely not get re-elected. What's the reasoning behind the "two term" rule?

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.15 12:47:00 - [81]
 

AT the outset, Im against it. CCP should be spending its time on more important things, things that are the whole point of EVE, like more ships.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2007.11.15 13:27:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Chribba
What's the reasoning behind the "two term" rule?


Preventing the abuse of power, if there is any power.
Else, anti-epeen-growth.Laughing

Dr Aryandi
Posted - 2007.11.15 14:08:00 - [83]
 

I don't see the need for a two term limit myself, if someone is doing a good job then they are doing a good job.

Maybe rather than an absolute two term limit we should have a consecutive two term limit, so you need to take a break after two terms but can then run again?

Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar
Phoenix Tech Industries
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
Posted - 2007.11.15 14:29:00 - [84]
 

One possible problem I see is your rule about 5% of the community has to vote in support of something on this forum for it to be required for the Council to raise it to CCP at their next meeting.

5% of what number, 200,000? Do you have a count of how many out of those 200,000 are actually active on the forums? My guess would be somewhere around 25,000 players actually use these forums. So that means almost 50% of the forum-going playerbase would have to support a particular issue to get it escalated. 50% of this forum agreeing on something? LOL!

Cardassius
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2007.11.15 14:34:00 - [85]
 

Tip for the GM's

Do the voting also INGAME, when someone logs into the game, make him NOTICE he has to vote (vote for someone or abstain from voting).
This way you will get a VERY high outcome.
In the future this could be done by docking & voting in the station :P

And please, only 1 vote per account.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2007.11.15 15:21:00 - [86]
 

2 points...

Originally by: Chribba
Why is it limited to two terms? I thought this was supposed to aim for what the community wanted? If Pilot A does a great job and the community supports him he still cannot get elected a 3rd time - thus forcing us to maybe have a pilot who handles everything worse.

And as you stated, if a CSM member does a bad job he will most likely not get re-elected. What's the reasoning behind the "two term" rule?


Term limits should be determined by the voter... limit the terms by getting rid of those that do a bad job... normally (IRL) term limits are used by the minority to try to remove a member of the majority who their opponents find effective...

Originally by: Cardassius
Tip for the GM's

Do the voting also INGAME, when someone logs into the game, make him NOTICE he has to vote (vote for someone or abstain from voting).
This way you will get a VERY high outcome.
In the future this could be done by docking & voting in the station :P

And please, only 1 vote per account.


While I agree with the 1 vote per account, I would rather have the voting done by those interested in the election and not just interested in logging in... a note in the "News" section with a link should be more then enough...

I know real life has no real place here, but a story I heard many years ago kind of fits...the teller was talking about his first time voting (US, North Carolina)... He went to the polls like he was told he should… he got into the booth to vote like he had been told he should... and looked at the list of names running for President...

Candidate - Party
Name 1 - Dem
Name 2 - Rep
Name 1 - Lib
Name 2 - Con
Name 3 - Sol
Name 4 - LBP
Name 5 - ANP
Name 2 - ATP

He knew some of the people listed, some names he had heard of, some people he had heard speak, but he did not know where they stood, he did not really care... But the name of Candidate (listed here as name 5) caught his eye, sounded like a good name, he used to shop at the A&P, so he voted for him... later he found out that the ANP was the American **** Party... that was the last time he made an uninformed vote...

Uninformed Voters are the biggest threat to this idea, let them go play and allow those of us that care to come and vote.

Wardo21
Posted - 2007.11.15 16:15:00 - [87]
 

Give them a sub-forum here, read only for non-members of the CSM. Transparency for the masses who have the time to catch up on the forums, and an inexpensive way to set forth their opinions, rather than a trip to Iceland.

Wardo21

Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2007.11.15 16:41:00 - [88]
 

People need to read the paper before they open their mouth - its well thought out but has a few galaxy sized holes in it - namely that there is very little control over the voting process.

But I will edit this and add a full comment when I have given it all a thought.

Pilk
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2007.11.15 16:44:00 - [89]
 

It's "John Locke", not "John Lock".

Also, am I the only one amused by the fact that CCP chose an image of Armageddon (the event, not the ship; specifically, the bombardment of Caldari Prime, I think?) to head up the section entitled "Implementing Deliverative, Democratically-Elected Council in EVE"?

--P

SasRipper
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2007.11.15 16:48:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: SasRipper on 15/11/2007 16:49:59
I think proportional representation should be used so as people outside major alliances can be represented.

other wise the council will end up looking something like this.

goon, goon, bob, bob, ra, ra, mc, razor, iac etc


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