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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.03.18 09:08:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 18/03/2008 09:11:00
What I still don't get is quite why people feel a ship with a 40m3 drone bay, a hybrid damage bonus (and 3 weapons to apply it to), and a warp disruption range bonus, and 4 lowslots of tank, should be a compared to a falcon in terms of ability to do ewar.

But I keep looking at these stats, and see ... what, 3 RSDs drop a BS locking range to 14km?

What's wrong with that? Do you really want a BS to be damped down to 2-3km locking range, with 100% reliability, with 3 mods?

A max skilled pilot will drop an ship with a locking range of 100km, less than it's RSD optimal, and less than it's warp disruptor range with one damp.

With 3, that same ship is less than everyone elses warp disruptor range as well.

All these people who flag 'signed, I want more power'... what do you actually think an arazu _should_ be able to do?

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.25 16:45:00 - [182]
 

A recent thread made me mad all over again about the nerf.

So Im bumping.

Nicholas DW
Invicta.
Posted - 2008.03.25 19:58:00 - [183]
 

At James Lyrus: with the introduction of HICs and the changes to 'ceptors making them even better tacklers, the warp disrupt bonus isn't as great an asset to a fleet as it used to be. If I'm given the choice, I'd rather have a HIC over an Arazu in almost any gang. And given the choice between a Falcon and an Arazu I'd almost always choose the Falcon.

If the biggest remaining "draw" the Arazu has is its DPS, its certainly in need of a boost or at the very least a fundamental change. If people wanna fly a DPS boat they fly a HAC, a BC or a BS. What I want, and what I assume the majority of the people posting in this thread want out of the Arazu is an EW platform that is a viable alternative to the Falcon.

CCP likes to push the "jack-of-all trades" thing unless a particular ship doesn't fit their "intended role" for said ship class; and in some cases it works. But when it comes to a dedicated EW platform, specialization is the key to success and survival. Other ships do the tackle role or the DPS role much, much better then the Arazu and most do it for a lot less isk and with lower SP.

When, in order to preform your role, you have to do it at 40km because your damps have limited range, a "Four-slot" tank doesn't get you very far. In a small gang fight being able to damp one ship to less then 20km is nice and all, but it doesn't keep your friends that have to fight under that range alive nor does it keep you alive when the guy has 4-5 friends with him and you get called primary. And if its a gank anyways, i.e., 5 ships vs 1 random BS, more DPS would have been more useful then an Arazu anyways.

Which brings us to the Falcon comparisons; the Falcon and other ECM boats can take 1-2+ targets out of a fight completely and they can do it at great range and at relative safety. If you want tackle or DPS, lots of ships do it better then the Arazu/Lachesis. What I want and expect out of the Arazu to be is a damp platform and as it stands now it can't do that properly. I don't want or expect damps to be plain better then ECM at taking people out of a fight, but it shouldn't be altogether useless at the job either.

Demorilizor
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.25 20:10:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Edited by: James Lyrus on 18/03/2008 09:11:00
What I still don't get is quite why people feel a ship with a 40m3 drone bay, a hybrid damage bonus (and 3 weapons to apply it to), and a warp disruption range bonus, and 4 lowslots of tank, should be a compared to a falcon in terms of ability to do ewar.

But I keep looking at these stats, and see ... what, 3 RSDs drop a BS locking range to 14km?

What's wrong with that? Do you really want a BS to be damped down to 2-3km locking range, with 100% reliability, with 3 mods?

A max skilled pilot will drop an ship with a locking range of 100km, less than it's RSD optimal, and less than it's warp disruptor range with one damp.

With 3, that same ship is less than everyone elses warp disruptor range as well.

All these people who flag 'signed, I want more power'... what do you actually think an arazu _should_ be able to do?


The arazu should be able to perform as well as it could before the damp nerf, when it was inline and there werent (many) threads full of people screaming about it being overpowered, cause it was nullinlinenull. and your right, you cant compair it to a falcon, a falcon can perma jam 4+ ships easily at 100 km, is there a legit reason that the range reduction mods are short range and the jamming mods are long range ? cause it doesnt make much sense to me.

And damping a 100km locking ship with one damp and staying im point range on a arazu ? looks like a case of "when carebears use EFT to understand PVP" to me Rolling Eyes

arazu and pilgrim have been hit hard compaired to the rapier and the falcon (after the EW buff). if you want to nerf arazu and pilgrim thats fine, but hit rapiers and falcons too then, let them all be equally underpowered. I think the whole class of force recons could use a little in-lining with eachother, i dont care if they all suck or all rock, lets just try to keep them at about the same usefullness.

btw i claim no responsibilty for my spelling, and refuse to correct it Wink

Eaterof Children
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:59:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Eaterof Children on 26/03/2008 00:00:54
Originally by: Mr Sisterfister
and your right, you cant compair it to a falcon, a falcon can perma jam 4+ ships easily at 100 km...
The hell it does!

Sigh, there we go again... A falcon will "almost permajam" around two targets. And that is if they have the correct racial jammers.
Falcons sport 5 damned jammers, not 8. If you mean "it can with a little luck jam 4 targets at a time for a cycle", yes with enough luck it could. Permajam? No chance in hell. Go fly the damned thing and if you manage to "permajam" 4 ships (that means not losing a cycle for the duration of a fight), come speak again. Permajam my ass. There's no such thing in any useful scenario, except if you only need to take a key ship out of a fight.

Anyway where the hell do you get these numbers from?

ON ANOTHER NOTE.

I agree with you that the dampener ships need a definite boost. But this has nothing to do with the falcon. They need a boost because they suck. Damping strength to what it was before the nerf is pretty much right. I think.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.26 08:59:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/03/2008 09:07:51
Originally by: Eaterof Children

I agree with you that the dampener ships need a definite boost. But this has nothing to do with the falcon. They need a boost because they suck. Damping strength to what it was before the nerf is pretty much right. I think.


QFT. At the moment, an Arazu/Lachesis gives very little to a gang/fleet, you're almost always much better off flying something else.

Even before the nerf, Arazu/Lachesis was much weaker than the Rook/Falcon in jamming ships -- given that you need an MWD and at least one scrambler (usually two), all an A/L could really hope to do it to jam one ship, two if really lucky and the fleet is operating at an unusually convenient range.

And that was fine. An A/L should be weaker than a R/F in jamming, since it has a secondary role (scrambling).

Thing is, with the new damps you can't even jam one ship in any useful way. Given 4 damps (the usual max you will fit in practice), your normal bs will still have enough target range to engage your ships, with no inconvenience. In other words, all that damp "power" is doing your fleet exactly nada, in most cases. Remember that target range and speed are now separate, so unless the target is damped to below your own fleet engagement range (very hard or impossible in most cases), damps are totally useless.

The "damp snipers" option, which is now and then presented by people for comedy value, falls down flat due to damp range, the need to fit a sensor booster to even reach normal sniper range, and lots of other silliness. It plain doesn't work, unless you define "sniping" to be at something like 130km range max. Which it usually isn't.

Oh, and all the above are assuming perfect level 5 skills and rigs. It gets much worse if you don't have those.

What we want is a ship that can fill a role. At the moment Arazu and Lachesis lack one. In my opinion, having actually flown the ships quite a bit (unlike some here apparently, I might add), they were fine before. I'd be fine with the ship bonuses being boosted so that the damp effect is in the same ballpark that is was -- even though that will still leave the ship weaker than it was due to the damp scripting, it should be enough to make the ships useful.

The Arazu needs to be able to reliably jam one ship (until it gets to extremely close range), and somewhat jam two ships, in order to be useful as a specialist EW cruiser. At the moment it fails miserably, and with 30km inties and 40km HICs in the picture now, the 48k scramble range is also no longer all that hot either.

Ok, hands up. Of all the people saying the ships are fine now, how many of you have actually flown and new Lachesis / Arazu in combat? How many of you have even flown the old ones? Basing on what I read, the answer seems to be: not many.

The old Arazu & Lach were balanced ships, and useful additions to most fleets. The new ones are crap. I have near-perfect skills, rigs, etc... and neither me or my FC sees a scenario where I should undock in one of the ships now. They have no useful role anymore. The best (and possibly only) use for a L/A nowadays is as support to a Falcon gang -- and after all that skill training, if you end up being at best a support for another (superior) recon, you're not going to be a happy camper.

A solo Arazu/Lachesis is useless. A solo Falcon can turn a small skirmish to your favor (been there, seen that, so many times now).

All we want is a role back for our ships. It really isn't rocket science, here.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.26 09:01:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/03/2008 09:01:14
Originally by: James Lyrus

But I keep looking at these stats


You look at the stats, endlessly it seems.

Do you actually fly the things? Have you ever flown them? Do you have any clue, in practice, of what you're talking about, or is this EFT and "stats" talking?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.03.26 09:05:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
what do you actually think an arazu _should_ be able to do?


Very simple: what it did before, more or less.

Be able to seriously lock down one ship (until it gets to point-blank range), or to hinder two.

The fact that a Falcon/Rook can do more is fine, since that's the only role those ships have. And please don't tell me Falcons and Rooks can't do more; we have lots of competent ECM pilots and I know quite well what those ships are capable of.

Sith8
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.03.26 09:51:00 - [189]
 

/Signed .. FREE THE ARAZU

MasterDecoy
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.27 10:24:00 - [190]
 

so how about those npc buy orders?

Das Panzer
Minmatar
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.03.29 10:44:00 - [191]
 

How about them damps?

FREE THE ARAZU

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2008.03.29 12:42:00 - [192]
 

My Arazu stays in the hangar until it gets a fix. Before that happens the only recon I will use is the rapier (can't fly caldari, so falcon is not a option. yet.)



Commander Poppinfresh
Caldari
Life. Universe. Everything.
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2008.03.29 21:41:00 - [193]
 

Damps just aren't useful right now. Sure, that BS has a 30km lock range and can't hit you, but what about your entire gang which cannot contribute to the fight unless they get within 20km of him or so? Your damps don't help them at all, and if you want the lock time effect you need to use 3-4 damps, and have less effect than 2 damps would before, limiting the ship to locking down a single target.
The lock range dampening is basically not useful at all unless you are solo, or in a gang of medium-range-only ships only (how often does that happen?).
The scan res dampening isn't powerful enough to be useful because it takes multiple damps to increase the lock time by a few seconds.
Changing these ship bonuses to 10% or even 7.5% would make the ships reasonably useful, while keeping everyone from fitting damps on every ship they flew (this was the real problem, nobody was ever arguing that damps were overpowered on gallente recons).

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.04.04 08:19:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Cornette
My Arazu stays in the hangar until it gets a fix. Before that happens the only recon I will use is the rapier (can't fly caldari, so falcon is not a option. yet.)



Yeah. Arazu and Lachesis are worthless now, and the only other race I can fly recons with is Amarr... who have the equally broken Pilgrim. So out of 4 ships, I have one actually useful ship to fly (Curse). Wheee! Very Happy

Maybe I should just do what everyone else is doing, train Caldari cruiser V and hop into a Falcon. Sigh. Are the devs totally clueless here, or are they aware of the balance problems between the recons? Wish I knew.

Timaios
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
Posted - 2008.04.04 08:53:00 - [195]
 

Have you tried using Arazu/Lachesis in a nanogang to keep those pesky rapiers/huginns out of the fight so they cannot keep you jammed - while dealing DPS and being nanoed? Gallente recons sound pretty good for that kind of job. You can't really do it with a falcon (nanoing a falcon means crappy EWAR strenght and a single ECCM ruins your day).

I'm not trolling here, it's a legitimate question I'm pondering.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.04.04 10:07:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Timaios
Have you tried using Arazu/Lachesis in a nanogang to keep those pesky rapiers/huginns out of the fight so they cannot keep you jammed - while dealing DPS and being nanoed? Gallente recons sound pretty good for that kind of job. You can't really do it with a falcon (nanoing a falcon means crappy EWAR strenght and a single ECCM ruins your day).

I'm not trolling here, it's a legitimate question I'm pondering.


Lachesis with two damp rigs and level 4 spec skill vs a Huginn with level 5 locking range skill gives 23.75km locking range for Huginn. :-/

And, well. Good luck nanoing a Lachesis - three low slots, rigs used for damp effectiveness and ****-poor cap does not a good nano make.

Kellaen
Samurai Salvaging
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.04 22:06:00 - [197]
 

Add another for the 'fix the damp ships after you neutered them' crowd.

Mike Yass
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.04.05 18:50:00 - [198]
 

I agree. They should also look into increasing the capacitor of the Lachesis, as currently it is lower than the celestis and less than a Arazu, so you can come close to getting a stable MWD setup.

Chr0nosX
Habitual Euthanasia
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.04.07 01:01:00 - [199]
 

Arazu,lachesis and Celestis need some changes to make them worth it over a falcon.

maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
Posted - 2008.04.07 01:11:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Chr0nosX
Arazu,lachesis and Celestis need some changes to make them worth it over a falcon.


Although im gallente spec'd i can fly falcons as well and i think that to put all damping ships in line with a single caldari ship (the falcon) would be wrong but for the arazu (its opposite number) i agree should have its damp optimal increased a lot and its str as well.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
Posted - 2008.04.07 11:55:00 - [201]
 

\in for a review of the Lachesis and Arazu.

i _don't_ want to be like a Falcon/Rook, but i _do_ want a role. they are tech2 ships and take a whole lot of skilling.

Chr0nosX
Habitual Euthanasia
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.04.07 13:39:00 - [202]
 

Tbh I don't think the Arazu should of been nerfed with the damp nerf I think before the nerf it was fine. Damps overall wern't fine because all ships fitted them with great results. As to people saying the Arazu is fine how come they are never seen in gangs anymore?

Kel Solaar
Einherjar Rising
Posted - 2008.04.07 15:24:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Timaios
Have you tried using Arazu/Lachesis in a nanogang to keep those pesky rapiers/huginns out of the fight so they cannot keep you jammed - while dealing DPS and being nanoed? Gallente recons sound pretty good for that kind of job. You can't really do it with a falcon (nanoing a falcon means crappy EWAR strenght and a single ECCM ruins your day).

I'm not trolling here, it's a legitimate question I'm pondering.


If you are in a small nano engagement like 2 vs 2, yeah. Anything else and you get primary and ****d, the goal of Lachesis/Arazu is to take out ships of combat, like the falcon, not trying to make the longest survivability score once you uncloaked...

xXxKatsujinxXx
Posted - 2008.04.19 11:50:00 - [204]
 

Shameless bump, lost an arazu and a lachesis lately and it made me realise just how helpless these ships are.

Der Fangzahn
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.04.21 21:03:00 - [205]
 

/sigend

Gallente Recons are atm useless helpless whateverless

Viiju
Posted - 2008.04.23 14:40:00 - [206]
 

/Signed

FREE THE ARAZU

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.04.23 18:45:00 - [207]
 

The problem is not the ships:

See

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=756166 for greater detail.

Emmerlaine
Gallente
Crab and Krawdad Enterprises
Posted - 2008.04.30 18:40:00 - [208]
 

As if we needed any confirmation that the Arazu / Lachesis have lost their role....

There is an article up on Eve Tribune about constructing recon gangs. Every race is mentioned and roles discusses... except Gallente. Towards the end they start talking about tackling and I thought, finally! Unfortunately the interdictors, HICs, and newly buffed interceptors are the only things mentioned. Gallente Recons are officially off the gang use radar.

Weak ECM, weak dmg, tackling overshadowed by other races, sigh...Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

Article is here

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.05.09 11:51:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Mike Yass
I agree. They should also look into increasing the capacitor of the Lachesis, as currently it is lower than the celestis and less than a Arazu, so you can come close to getting a stable MWD setup.

Quotin' 'cos i'm down.

xXxKatsujinxXx
Posted - 2008.05.15 00:13:00 - [210]
 

ooops accidental bump - this isn't gonna go away mr ccp... lol


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