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PeacefullNub
Posted - 2008.01.10 11:29:00 - [1471]
 

Edited by: PeacefullNub on 10/01/2008 11:41:09
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.

15km gate decloacking range is nothing for any ship with MWD - mega will be near abaddon before they targeted each other. Thats a reason why long range snipers +ceptors are used instead "mid range" abaddons. They have greater range, allmost same dps, and if things getting realy bad - snipers and ceptors have ability to escape.
I cant imagine situations when megapulse boat can be better than any close range boat or sniper. This is what many ppls called "amarr problem" - no role in game.

Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.01.10 12:46:00 - [1472]
 

50 Pages and people say there's no problem! Rolling Eyes

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:04:00 - [1473]
 

Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 13:04:47
Quick recap of last 50 pages

New Amarr players and also any players with 18+ charisma - REMAKE your char unless you know what you are doing.



Also for experienced players,
Lasers have.....

Worst Range for long range fights
Worst tracking for close range
Worst REAL damage output vs REAL World pvp ships
Use most cap
Worst fitting reqs



SkyCrane
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:19:00 - [1474]
 

I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.

Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Rolling Eyes
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.

Yiang Wang
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:37:00 - [1475]
 

Respectfully /signed.

Kirjava
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.10 13:38:00 - [1476]
 

I am in the Epic thread.

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 14:08:00 - [1477]
 

Originally by: SkyCrane
I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.

Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Rolling Eyes
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.


Yep. Sacri was designed with Lasers in mind, and hence has good fitting now they changed it to lasers.

Same with Nightmare. They got 4 lasers with 100% bonus, but grid never got nerfed. And nightmare is now actually a viable Laser ship!

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:12:00 - [1478]
 

Originally by: SkyCrane
I expect the next Amarr fix will be a Sacrilege nerf. That ships is just too easy to fit out and does far too much damage do be an Amarr ship.

Peacefullnub: People seem to think Amarrs role in this game is POS takedowns... Rolling Eyes
Which truly is pathetic and annoying and is as good as no role imo.


No! Amarr role is: Enemy morale booster, boost avoidance and nerf-bat magnet.

Wrattus Norvegicus
Posted - 2008.01.10 16:39:00 - [1479]
 

Of course the simple solution to the 'Amarr question' is to simply fly the other, better ships. I flew the Absolution for ages before I realised how much better the other racial command ships are. I now fly a Sleipnir and have never looked back.
You might be suprised how quickly you can retrain for a different ship in the same class, many of the skills carry over.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.01.10 17:37:00 - [1480]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.

A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.


Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km
Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious...

...or is that really your main (Laughing)

Jonny JoJo
Amarr
The Imperial Guards
Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 - [1481]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 10/01/2008 17:36:46
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The latter situation is exactly where the mid-range Megapulse shines.

A Megathron has to haul itself from target to target, doing 0 dps for a significant period, the Armageddon or Abaddon just sits there hitting the primary from t=0 until the fight is over. It doesn't matter if the Pulse boat gets webbed by a tackler, it's still hitting it's target, a webbed Megathron is out of the fight until it takes out the tackler itself or the gang's support does so.


Sorry - only clown pvpers do that. Top pvpers use long range ships with short range high damage ammo + drones, and rely on short range ships to hold targets down. But then again, I guess you only fight NPC's who orbit gate at 50km
Coming from the noob alt that's hilarious...

...or is that really your main (Laughing)


So you call me a noob and it turns out the noobs know more than you? Thanks for admiting.

Mid range does not exist so your arguments FAIL.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2008.01.10 22:04:00 - [1482]
 

I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it.

Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns.

Titus Lewis
Amarr
Suddenly Successful
Posted - 2008.01.10 23:02:00 - [1483]
 

They have been for a long time.

Originally by: Vikarion
I'm starting to get the feeling that the devs avoid any thread with the word "Amarr" in it.

Perhaps not, but it would be nice to know if they actually understand/acknowledge these concerns.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2008.01.11 01:56:00 - [1484]
 

Well, that's kind of sad. Have they ever given any reasons for why they think Amarr are not underpowered?

Or, rather, why lasers are not underpowered?

I like CCP, but this does seem to be a bit of a blind spot.

And by "blind spot", I mean "giant train tunnel".

Plausable Swap
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:00:00 - [1485]
 

Amarr role in game is to be the worst out of the four races.

SOMEONE has to be it, so quit whining noobs.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.01.11 02:20:00 - [1486]
 

I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.

If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.

shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:29:00 - [1487]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.

If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.


Well, I think its a myriad of things.

The playerbase looks at amarr and think:

The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range.

The developers look at amarr and think:

The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here.

I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?)

OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home.

Spyder1226
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:41:00 - [1488]
 

Just would like to show my support for this thread. I hope CCP uses the great wealth of information that is in this thread to fix amarr.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 03:43:00 - [1489]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.

If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.


Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really.

Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better.


shinsushi
Posted - 2008.01.11 04:07:00 - [1490]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm pretty damn sure that a major cause of "Amarr problem" is their lack of mid slots.

If CCP gave all "troubled" Amarr ships +1 mid slot -1 low slot, for just 1 week, we could see how much more popular those ships become.


Or remove the extra highslot and add a mid; would be a boost to a ton of Amarr ships really.

Three midslot designs are preety stupid; the four-midslot Amarr ships are simply way way better.




I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =)

The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.)

This held very true up until tier 3 BSes and tier 2 BCs, as no other race had a 8 turret BS, and only the gallente mostly competed on the amount of turrets per ship. This kinda got lost in the shuffle over the years though. Amarr went from omg damage to run of the mill damage. We have lost our identity as a race and CCP has shown no signs of giving it back to us. Currently we are at best one mostly failed philosophy (kill em before they get close) and a hodge podge of the rest of the races (missile and drone boats.)

I would like to have the clarity of purpose like gallente (droners/do-or-die-in-your-face-gank), caldari (missiles, ECMs and long range) and minmatar (speed and versatility) have.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.11 04:24:00 - [1491]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/01/2008 04:28:10
Originally by: shinsushi
[
I would soo love to argue with this, but that would be a lie, and I would have to edit my post above =)

The only argument I can see against it is that amarr are not meant to be the least bit versatile, it says so on the tin. I know design philosophies seem to get trampled all over when balancing is concerned, but I remember amarr doctrine being lots of lasers and lots of armor, saying nothing about versatility or electronics (what more mids mean in my mind.)



Essential PvP mods take three mids, cap booster is what fourth mid means to me, a piece of engineering rather then electronics equipment. Design philosphy or no, four mids is preety necessary unless you're strictly going for plated setups.

Take the Harbringer, for example; one of the reasons it's a much better ship then the Prophecy is exactly four midslots instead of three.

I wouldn't call the Harbringer a 'un-Amarr' ship ;P

SkyCrane
Posted - 2008.01.11 05:23:00 - [1492]
 

Originally by: shinsushi
Well, I think its a myriad of things.

The playerbase looks at amarr and think:

The APOC, maller, zealot, punisher, prophecy, curse, pilgrim, and lasers in general need work, and that fights revolve around that magical 24km scram range (silly isn't it?) lessening the value of mid-range.

The developers look at amarr and think:

The geddon, abaddon, Khanid line, ceptors and capitals are great, EANs and omni-tanking are the issue here.

I kinda side with the people who fly amarr (is there even 1 developer left who flies them?)

OH, to your post, most amarrian vessels actually have a nearly useless high-slot module where NOS used to go (if it would fit) that is looking for a new home.[/quote



I wonder what's really wrong with the Curse? Yes, it's less of a solopwnmobile now, but it's still a great ship if you use it correct. Not counting the fact that it's in fact a doneboat, but I have come to temrs with that a long time ago, as drones are important on an Amarr ship no mater how you look at it. Embarassed

PeacefullNub
Posted - 2008.01.11 05:52:00 - [1493]
 

I would like to repeat someone words (dont remember exactly who said that):
1 extra drone brandwich (5 for frig, 10 for cruiser, 25 for bs) = 1 high slot
mid slot>>low slot (just stupid, but many active midslot modules are better than passive lowslots analogs, not mention webbs, scramblers and ew)
empty high slot (especialy when you cannot fit it)<<low slot.

Valadeya uthanaras
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.01.11 05:56:00 - [1494]
 

Edited by: Valadeya uthanaras on 11/01/2008 06:01:38
Problem with the curse is actually simple:

I am flying at 3000m/s, at 15km of a sleipnir with 220 mm autocannon and barrage.

I have 3 T2 Tracking disruptor, with top skill and top ship BONUS!!!

Sleipnir still hit me for full damage!!! and even autocannon bs will do good damage on me!!! EASY TOO SEE HOW WRONG IT IS.

Missile with hit me with full damage....

ECM on a rook kill 3 ships targeting almost permanantly from long range, a really nice role

Damp + Scram bonus on a Lachesis will keep you out of any harm from a single ship, or even a few ships for a while, and make you one of the best tackler in many situation

Huggin .... dont have to make a picture why its amazing.....just think of the long range web.......with crazy strenght.

Last patch show how much general lack of knowledge of the games the new balance developper have(zulupark), siply because EVERYWHERE on the forum OR in-game Tracking disruptor was CLEARLY the worst electronic warfare.....

YET HE NERFED ITRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
because of some content introduction HE SHOULD HAVE USED TO BOOOSSSST IT.....

SO why curse is half-decent.....simply because It have noseferatu and neutraliser with long range that where nerfed...but it have no use in large gang, had is EW screwed for some idiotic reason, can't fit decently.


THe main point his.......Curse boost to a heavy level a medium level module(nosferatu/neut).....while the other 3 boost something to a level no other ship have

edit:
yes it does boost TD.....but they are pointless now

So all those good curse pilot you see everywhere.....are mostly people with high grade set in their head, otherwise, its a hard time doing stuff with a curse

and No "you can use missile on it" excuse....ITS BONUSING NOSFERATU AND NEUTRALIZER, NOT missile...

Valadeya

Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2008.01.11 06:55:00 - [1495]
 

I'll list the sub-capital Amarr combat ships that can compete with other races in their respective category:

Punisher, Maldiction, Arbitrator, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon, Paladin, Sacrilege, Devoter, Curse, Absolution, Damnation.

Of those 12 ships, only 6 use lasers as the primary weapon. All other Amarr ships pretty much suck. What especially needs help are the Pilgrim, Zealot, Apoc, and most of the T1 lineup.

Oh, and who uses Tracking Disruptors anyway? I don't fit em on my Curse because there are better things to put in those mids.

PeacefullNub
Posted - 2008.01.11 07:51:00 - [1496]
 

Originally by: Kruel
I'll list the sub-capital Amarr combat ships that can compete with other races in their respective category:

Punisher, Maldiction, Arbitrator, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon, Paladin, Sacrilege, Devoter, Curse, Absolution, Damnation.


Punisher - useless frig (2 mids - no pvp, lasers - no pve)
Harbinger/abaddon - only gangs and heavy plated setups or active tank+ac/artis.
Devoter - worst HIC. Dont know for what advantage it has only 4 turrets and f***ng cap reduction bonus. (or devs suggested, that lasers used too many cap and in order to balance amarrs they remove 1 turret, but forget to add +25% faction bonus?)
Paladin - worst maradeur (but still much better than any t1 amarr BS)
Originally by: Kruel

Oh, and who uses Tracking Disruptors anyway? I don't fit em on my Curse because there are better things to put in those mids.

I think that if curse\piligrim have something instead tracking disrupter bonus (or ability to affect optimal and fallof with TD) they will be great.

SkyCrane
Posted - 2008.01.11 08:01:00 - [1497]
 

Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras

I have 3 T2 Tracking disruptor, with top skill and top ship BONUS!!!

Sleipnir still hit me for full damage!!! and even autocannon bs will do good damage on me!!! EASY TOO SEE HOW WRONG IT IS.

Missile with hit me with full damage....

ECM on a rook kill 3 ships targeting almost permanantly from long range, a really nice role

Damp + Scram bonus on a Lachesis will keep you out of any harm from a single ship, or even a few ships for a while, and make you one of the best tackler in many situation

Huggin .... dont have to make a picture why its amazing.....just think of the long range web.......with crazy strenght.

Last patch show how much general lack of knowledge of the games the new balance developper have(zulupark), siply because EVERYWHERE on the forum OR in-game Tracking disruptor was CLEARLY the worst electronic warfare.....

YET HE NERFED ITRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
because of some content introduction HE SHOULD HAVE USED TO BOOOSSSST IT.....

SO why curse is half-decent.....simply because It have noseferatu and neutraliser with long range that where nerfed...but it have no use in large gang, had is EW screwed for some idiotic reason, can't fit decently.


THe main point his.......Curse boost to a heavy level a medium level module(nosferatu/neut).....while the other 3 boost something to a level no other ship have

edit:
yes it does boost TD.....but they are pointless now

So all those good curse pilot you see everywhere.....are mostly people with high grade set in their head, otherwise, its a hard time doing stuff with a curse

and No "you can use missile on it" excuse....ITS BONUSING NOSFERATU AND NEUTRALIZER, NOT missile...

Valadeya


Onfe again I have to point out my extremely limited experience in PvP, but I still think the Curse is fine.
Sure, the trackingdisruptors are next to useless, butt he highslots are still usefull.
Play around with it's fitting a little bit and see what you can do with it, and I'm sure you'll work something out which works in small gangs :)

Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.01.11 11:16:00 - [1498]
 

Originally by: Wrattus Norvegicus
Of course the simple solution to the 'Amarr question' is to simply fly the other, better ships. I flew the Absolution for ages before I realised how much better the other racial command ships are. I now fly a Sleipnir and have never looked back.
You might be suprised how quickly you can retrain for a different ship in the same class, many of the skills carry over.



This...

It took me less than a week to train for a Hurricane and named guns... It does the same DPS as a Harbinger, but has no cap issues, goes faster, has a smaller sig radius, is more maneuverable, is cheaper to buy and fit, and easier to fit (essentially has an extra 50-60 CPU compared to the Harbinger). To get the same style of fitting from the Harbinger, I need to use two fitting rigs (less gun CPU), which leaves one free rigslot, where the Hurricane has three.

I'm training for a Devoter at the moment, but once that's done, I'm going to get t2 guns for the cane and see about training minnie cruiser 5.

Lady Vorax
Amarr
Invicta.
Posted - 2008.01.11 12:01:00 - [1499]
 

As far as i can tell no eve dev, gm, whatever has posted in here. in a 50 page topic.......\

Isnt that a clear sign that us poor amarr pilots are going to get nerfed and nerfed some more and that CCP doesnt give a rats behind:) about it.

Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2008.01.11 12:52:00 - [1500]
 

Even the relatively new Amarr E-Attack ships have inherited Amarr problems. They, and Amarr Recons have bonus for the module that has different ship-size classes. Nosfs and neuts can be frigate-size, cruiser-size and battleship-size. Any other race Recons and E-Attack frigs have bonus for modules that work the same way on any ship size. There's no battleship size webs and frigate size webs, same goes for scrambling, dampning and ECM. IMHO, that renders Amarr E-Attack frig much less attractive than any other E-Attack frig. Recons still can pull their weight, but the nos nerf hit them hard too (the irony is that the nos was nerfed because of Gallente, and the victims are Amarr ships).


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